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stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.11 14:49:00 - [1] Originally by: Mairead Blade What would Triumvirate do without ships able to go Eleventy-Billion metres per second? OP, its a crazy idea. Like most skilled small gang pvpers in eve they would proly use one of the many other ways in eve to kick butt until the whiners cried to ccp for another nerf. Rinse and repeat.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.11 15:00:00 - [2] Edited by: stinger7 on 11/04/2008 15:01:02 Originally by: Fleet Oisin "skilled pvp'ers" I agree that the top pilots in Tri are very, very good. However there is an inordinate amount of not so very good, made-to-look-good by skilled gang leadership [the same top pilots]. This will come out in the wash one day. Rinse that afterward. So nerf good FC's?...lol just because the good pilots in other alliances cannot be bothered to train up or lead there lesser skilled pilots is hardly the fault of alliances that do train/lead there less skilled pilots now is it.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.11 15:18:00 - [3] Edited by: stinger7 on 11/04/2008 15:21:08 Originally by: Fleet Oisin The point is your statement implied that ALL the Tri pilots were over and above what they meet in combat. If you are fair you know this not to be true. The truth is there is a top 5% who are excellent. They are Tri and they should be rightly respected and indeed feared on the field. Because they are that good and if you make wrong decisions they'll have you. It is they and not the minions who tip the balance in Tri's favour most of the time. The point about skilling FC's in Tri is not a fair reflection. The same FC's usually lead pretty much generically. Again if your are fair you will accept this to be true. Just because the top 5% in tri can kick ass or other skilled gang pilots in eve can do it is no reason to nerf ships (cos the imbalance is in the layers not the ships) but a good reason for the other 95% to improve. We all sucked at eve at one time or another even these "top pilots" but some of us trained up, listened, learned and improved while others sat around doing nothing but complaining that the game is unbalanced. Ive had over 80 kills on my main this month (10 days in) and im not flying in a nano gang, although i have flown against them and killed a lot. While i've seen some of the biggest whiners on this forum KB stats and they have not lost one single ship to a nano gang EVER and had less than 200 kills in nearly 2 years.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.11 17:51:00 - [4] Edited by: stinger7 on 11/04/2008 17:52:43 Originally by: Ephemeron After participating in nearly 40 pages worth of nano discussions, I have come to 1 important understanding: The "nano problem" is a battle of ideologies. It's like Democates vs Republicans, Christians vs Muslims. Both sides can come up with valid arguments from their point of view, but these points of view will never cross. No agreement is possible between these ideologies. We just have to learn to accept each others differences. The game balance shouldn't be shifted in favor of either party. Choose stability. Stability in a pvp game is not really wanted but i think that removing anything that reduces the need for skill in the game is a mistake.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.11 19:24:00 - [5] Edited by: stinger7 on 11/04/2008 19:25:39 Originally by: Goumindong No, they are not like ideologies. Unless one is an ideology of using logic to balance games and one is an ideology of promoting imbalanced games. Like you would even know?. Originally by: stinger7 Ive had over 80 kills on my main this month (10 days in) and i am not flying in a nano gang, although i have flown against them and killed a lot. While i've seen some of the biggest whiners on this forum KB stats and they have not lost one single ship to a nano gang EVER and had less than 200 kills in nearly 2 years. I was referring to you btw. Maybe 200 was a bit generous for you so il go with less than 180.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.11 19:36:00 - [6] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: stinger7 Like you would even know? Its because i am the only one who has used [non-fallacious]logic to define and explain the problem, and why it cannot be considered anything but a problem. Rack up at least 50-100 kills a month (thats only 2 or 3 a day bud) in 0.0 for 6 months or so and them maybe ppl with consider you worth listening to.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.11 19:55:00 - [7] Originally by: Goumindong Why? That is entirely determined by aspects completely removed from the correctness of an argument. Hell, its entirely determined by aspects completely removed from the skill and intelligence of the player in question(both of which are completely removed from the correctness of an argument). [E.G. you can do that easily by simply camping 0.0 entrance points and killing idiots, it doesn't make you any more or less smart than anyone else] Even camping a 0.0 entry point will get you in fights with other gangs, (nano and otherwise) if you have your own gang, and as such will improve your intergang and individual skills and give you a perspective that does not come from nothing or just a eve fitting tool.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.11 20:56:00 - [8] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: stinger7 Originally by: Goumindong Why? That is entirely determined by aspects completely removed from the correctness of an argument. Hell, its entirely determined by aspects completely removed from the skill and intelligence of the player in question(both of which are completely removed from the correctness of an argument). [E.G. you can do that easily by simply camping 0.0 entrance points and killing idiots, it doesn't make you any more or less smart than anyone else] Even camping a 0.0 entry point will get you in fights with other gangs, (nano and otherwise) if you have your own gang, and as such will improve your intergang and individual skills and give you a perspective that does not come from nothing or just a eve fitting tool. Cos the fact is that your opinions at the moment are based not on your own experiences but on god knows what. No, they are based on experience. You fail to note what these dependent variables are that makes your assertions false. Now are you going to stop the ad hominem and show some proof of what you say being true or are you going to keep being disingenuous? You have been told countless times by experienced pvper's how to combat nano ships in various ways and every time you post a denial involving nothing but speculation and lies. Do you realy think that using big words in your posts will make anybody think that you are even slightly educated?...get some real xp in eve.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.11 21:29:00 - [9] Originally by: Goumindong Hell, even give an argument as to how you kill these targets? Because at the moment all your arguments end in "and then they warp away" as if you won something from that. If your looking for a way to kill every ship in a fleet nano or not nano then your dreaming bud and that reason is hardly one that justifies a nerf. You will kill a few, you will proly lose none or hopefully (if your gang is good) less than they do but having good fights is not just about getting entire fleets wiped out its about enjoying the combat against a worthy and skilled gang. And have you put a gang together and tried any of the things the experienced pvpers have told you?...no but then it takes time effort and patience (plus a lot of losses) to build a good gang of pvpers and that is something most forum hounds who scream nerf are never willing to do.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.11 21:40:00 - [10] Edited by: stinger7 on 11/04/2008 21:45:03 Originally by: Goumindong Ive already explained that that is a strawman. I'm not looking for that I am looking for more reasonable disengagement times regarding these ships because the current ones are much too low. edit: if its possible to do, then why cant these "experienced pvpers" do it? And you can quit that ad-hominem now, you've no clue the quality of player I am. edit2: and post with your main while you are at it. A KB shows exactly what type/quality of pvper a player is by the engagements/fights he has been in, and yours shows that you are not a pvper let alone a skilled one. So until you are i suggest you take the advise of the experienced pvpers on here and put together a good gang practice you pvp and go kill stuff. PS: my main is barred from posting for 90 days for annoying bob on caod and even if he was not id still not tell you who i am. But il tell you that my corp flies mostly ravens in pvp and we hate nano cos they are a pain in the ass but we still kill them quite well unless we get blobbed.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.11 22:08:00 - [11] Originally by: Gamesguy Just so you guys know who you're arguing with, Goum thinks a plated rapier with no mwd is a nanoship and therefore not valid as a counter. He thinks a blaster fitted megathron is a sniper, and a 10km/s mach isn't a nanoship. I think its funny tbh cos when i was in the illuminati we got owned by a mixed logistic, ewar/tackle, dps gang just before i left. But still ppl fly fleets without a good mix or setup and then cry when they get pwned by a nano gang lol.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.12 01:30:00 - [12] Originally by: Goumindong I am likely more qualified than anyone else in this thread to discuss balance in this game. But since you are so sure about yourself, why do you have no proof? If its so easy and if mixed gangs are so strong, why don't you run them yourself? So BS, HACS, recons, logistics(when needed), and other varied ships are not considered a mixed fleet?. Ok bud if you say so.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.12 02:49:00 - [13] Edited by: stinger7 on 12/04/2008 02:53:17 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: stinger7 Originally by: Goumindong I am likely more qualified than anyone else in this thread to discuss balance in this game. But since you are so sure about yourself, why do you have no proof? If its so easy and if mixed gangs are so strong, why don't you run them yourself? So BS, HACS, recons, logistics(when needed), and other varied ships are not considered a mixed fleet?. Ok bud if you say so. Then why aren't these mixed fleets not being flown? There are HAC/Recon/Logistics gangs, and HAC/Recon gangs, and HAC/logistics gangs. But that key step, being the heavier ships[and tech 1 ships like cruisers are right out, not because they are bad, but because the are not fast enough], is always left out in roaming ops? Why is it when you find a HAC/Recon/logistics gang all speeded out the only way to kill them is to field another HAC/Recon/Logistics gang? You simply cannot kill these ships without them and its broken. Well our guys do not fly t1 cruisers cos we can fly t2 stuff but we do fly BS's in gang and they are the heaviest t1 ships in the game. Some of our ships are speedy some are tanked or set for high dps and some are fitted ewar style.. how bloody mixed do you want ffs??????????????. PS: please try to nano a logistic ship btw.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.12 10:12:00 - [14] Originally by: Goumindong If i was a dev, then i would be able to datamine and take a look at the proof you say you have. But i'm not, so i can't. Also, a scimitar at log 5 can perma run 3 LSBs and an MWD without sacrificing polycarbons, overdrives, eccm, or a sensor booster[or it can run tank instead but you should bring two and won't need much buffer with remote repping]. And being able to perma-run is probably a little unnecessary. Maybe you should try training up some PvP skills? The BE "cloak forever until we find something weaker than us and they are at a disadvantage" is not a valid argument for mixed fleets being useful. Ive got LVL5 logistics bud and i have never ever since i started playing in 2003 put polycarbs on a logistic ship. Although the fit you claim can nano is totaly worthless as a single jammer can remove it from the battle(do you think before you post or just bleat out what you think works?).. you really have no clue what so ever about how to fit ships do you?. You just pretend to think you know how ppl fit them as long as it fits with your little delusion of nano invulnerability. Oh and cloaks help TI avoid getting uber blobbed but they still pvp well outnumbered every chance they get. But that is something you would not understand is it (not the outnumbered bit the the pvp). Outnumbered 8 vs 40+ in P3EN and the guys hot dropped a titan on BE, BE lost 2 sigils the hostiles lost: Battleships û 9 Battlecruisers û 5 HACS û 4 Cruiser û 6 Force recon û 3 Hectors û 2 Dictors -4 Ceptors û 5 Logistics û 1 Frigs û 3 Assault û 1 Pods û 14 And BE were not flying NANO, now go fly some ships and learn wtf you are trying to talk about although i see quite a few that BE killed. 2 years of eve and only 176 kills 17 losses and you think you know how others fit a logistic ship and about pvp styles LOL just LOL try logging in and learning things for real instead f preaching stuff from the fitting tool like its worth anything.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.13 23:19:00 - [15] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: stinger7 Although the fit you claim can nano is totally worthless as a single jammer can remove it from the battle(do you think before you post or just bleat out what you think works?).. you really have no clue what so ever about how to fit ships do you?. You just pretend to think you know how ppl fit them as long as it fits with your little delusion of nano invulnerability. Actually no, you can still get ECCM and a sensor booster on just fine. So stop bleating out **** and learn how to fit ships. OMG so now your fitting overdrives and sensor boosters with cap rigs on a logistic ship?. LOL just LOL.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.14 10:38:00 - [16] Edited by: stinger7 on 14/04/2008 10:51:29 Originally by: Goumindong More theoretical pvp insights and worthless mathematical pvp possibilities from somebody with virtually no pvp experiance. Oh yes and a couple of corrections cos i only know how to fit and fly the ships in pvp and am not a statistical armchair warrior. First my errors. 1. Your right you said poly carbs on a logistic ship didn't you...erm ok i guess that makes you a real pro pvper and expert logistics pilot then. 2. Yea ok bud i see nano'd scimitars with no remote repping stuff fitted tackling stuff all the time in eve (NOT) 3. So i got the bonuses mixed up on a couple things but the fact is that you have no clue about how to fit a logistic ship or how to pvp with one: A. You do not fit logistic ships with nano ever unless your knowledge comes from theoretical battles and the eve fitting tool. B. You do not fit logistics ships with nano and with tackle unless your knowledge comes from theoretical battles and the eve fitting tool. C. You do not fit poly carbs on a logistic ship unless your knowledge comes from theoretical battles and the eve fitting tool. D. You do not fit or need a sensor booster unless your knowledge comes from theoretical battles and the eve fitting tool. THIS IS YOUR PROBLEM IN A NUTSHELL. Myself and the other pvpers on here telling you things about pvp and ship fittings actually fly these various ships in combat a lot, While all your knowledge comes from theoretical battles in your head and whiners who want there BS gank tank ship to be a kill all option. Plus you get your ship performance theories given to you by the eve fitting tool and that is only of any use for testing for stable cap or for PG/CPU fit testing. Now all that is great if you want to impress ppl with your statistical knowledge but your making claims about practical application that do not reflect the reality of combat in eve, so get some xp and come back when you have a better understanding of pvp. There is nothing worse for a game that a non player/pvper trying to correct play/pvp when they have no real experience in it.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.14 11:09:00 - [17] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: stinger7 There is nothing worse for a game that a non player/pvper trying to correct play/pvp when they have no real experience in it. This. Tell me about it bud Me = 100+ 0.0 kills this month so far (13 days) in ship types that vary from BS to ewar. And i consider this quite a slow month tbh. Goumindong = 176 kills since 2006-10-22.. But hey if you need to ask somebody what ship/module gives exactly what stat at what level instead of just knowing how to fit it from experience of pvping in it in eve Goumindong is your boy.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.14 12:27:00 - [18] Edited by: stinger7 on 14/04/2008 12:29:01 Originally by: Ambien Torca Who cares how many kills and deaths someone has really? You can pick up hundreds of mails from gatecamping (whack-a-mole) and in fleet battles especially as a sniper. And yet this person would not be guaranteed to know squat about the game. Its about actual experience bud, even a gate camper or sniper will get fleets or other gangs dropped on them quite a lot and learn from it. But somebody with ridiculously few kills like this guy has not even done that much. But without even losing a single ship to nano gangs he considers himself qualified to tell ppl that they are unkillable by anything but a larger nano gang or unbalanced. While others who have fought in nano gangs and against them like myself are constantly pointing out how to combat them and having this fool tell us we are wrong and then using theoretical rubbish and mathematical junk to try to prove it while the reality in eve and in pvp is utterly different to a fitting tools idea of it. I have around 100 0.0 kills on my main this months so far (13 days in and tbh i consider this a very slow month) some of them from killing ratters, some of them from being outnumbered a lot but fighting anyway, and i fly in varied ship types and gang sizes against varied ship types and gang sizes.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.14 19:13:00 - [19] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: stinger7 2. Your right you said poly carbs on a logistic ship not cap rigs. Oh and that makes you a even bigger fool btw cos nobody but a fool fits a logistic ship (eve a scimitar) as a nano/tackler and not as a logistic ship If you think that you can just park your "credentials" at the door, scimitars make excellent heavy tacklers and excellent remote boosters when nano'd. It maybe "theoretically possible" to fit them as a heavy tackler but then that applies to a lot of cruiser sized ships in the game so why waste the logistics ships bonuses by fitting it as a tackler?. And while a nano logistic shipis also perhaps "theoretically possible" only somebody who's pvp XP comes from the eve fitting tool would even suggest either of these fits. Instead of trolling this forum spouting math and armchair pvping you should try logging in to the game, climbing into a pvp ship and putting a gang together.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.14 19:53:00 - [20] Edited by: stinger7 on 14/04/2008 19:57:17 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: stinger7 It maybe "theoretically possible" to fit them as a heavy tackler but then that applies to a lot of cruiser sized ships in the game so why waste the logistics ships bonuses by fitting it as a tackler?. And while a nano logistic ship is also perhaps "theoretically possible" only somebody who's pvp XP comes from the eve fitting tool would even suggest either of these fits. Instead of trolling this forum spouting math and armchair pvping you should try logging in to the game, climbing into a pvp ship and putting a gang together. Because its not "Theoretically possible", its "one of, if not the best heavy tackler in the game" Its fast, locks fast, locks far, has a tiny signature radius even with an MWD and LSEs on it and has a great slot layout to do that type of work. Its the same thing when fit for logistics capability. Its speed is essential to keeping it alive, and yea, it would be great to sit in a cloaked basilisk and circle jerk cap on top of your long range raven fleet as you pop idiots who aggress fast long range tacklers on gates, but that does not work well in roaming fleets[or for killing intelligent people who will burn back to the gate and jump through] So if i was looking for a "heavy tackler" in the minmatar race you would recommend me train the best T2 cruiser that can speed tank and tackle as the scimitar instead of the vagabond?. How in a scimitar would you pop ships like interceptors or frigs that had you scrammed ffs lol?. Personally nowadays id go for a light tackler like the hyena as a better option to either of those ships tbh.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.16 12:59:00 - [21] Originally by: Mahn AlNouhm Granted, with Eve most of us have little more than analagous experience, but the fact is his demand for proof is not evidence of laziness but of a skeptical mind that isn't easily swayed by empty rhetoric. Also, with regards to pointing people to your killboard for examples of effective nano counters, may I point out that its just as possible (if not even more likely) that your losses are simply a product of bad piloting. My take on the nano issue: either nerf nano, or boost the counters for nano that don't require you to be nanoed yourself. Some of the very few individuals wanting this nerf have hardly every pvp'd in eve at all and have never lost a ship to a nano gang ever so do you think that makes them qualified to make claims that nano ships are unkillable cos i certainly do not. They and you have been told by experienced pilots how to counter nano and been referred to their KB's as evidence, but you cannot be bothered to look them over or even try out the ways for yourself (and that is where the lazy comments come from), but instead claim it may have been pilot error that lost those ships without even knowing or checking the details or facts. This does not make you or San Rintu or gourmindong skeptical as you claim, it makes you lazy and narrow minded as you are unwilling to find out or try out things for yourself. I personally fly all types of gangs from nano to BS to fully mixed logistic/ewar/dps gangs and each have there place and under certain circumstances can defeat each other depending on the engagement.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.16 17:56:00 - [22] Every fleet uses scouts so claiming that nano ships can get away is absurd as most FC's even newish ones will avoid battle totally if they see a fleet that may kick there butt. While nano pilots may chance the engagement in the hopes of getting a few kills and doing so allows the other fleet an opportunity of gaining a few kills as well. So removing or nerfing nano will reduce the amount of small gang engagements in eve and also turn them into a gang vs gang slug fest's with the winner being decided by who has the most ships in there gang instead of who has the best gang and piloting skills. Oh yes and i was part of tri for quite a while and they are very good at there tactics in nano ships but to claim that "against the majority of any gang setup out there" they have no fear is only correct because the majority of ppl fit for tank/gank and nothing else and a lot do not even fit a mwd. Now nano can easily beat a bunch of slow moving lunk heads in BS or BC with no proper support or mix in the gang that is also led by a fool, but if they learn from the experience and fit a good mixed fleet and they learn how to work together nano gangs become the guys in crappy tanked ships that go boom real easy and then run away. The problem is that instead of blaming themselves and their lack of xp in ships, fittings, gang and piloting skills they run to the forum screaming about unkillabe ships as if its the game that sucks and not them. Train up and stfu cos it ain't nano its you.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.16 19:44:00 - [23] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Phoibos I admit I was wrong about that I have no problem with that, so should you about nano ships, becuse this nerfing is killing the game Is this an argument? I can't tell. Either he is right or he is wrong. If he is wrong there must be a reason for it. Provide the reason [seen here as evidence of these tactics killing nano-gangs], and then we can talk about admitting wrongness about nano-gangs. We will never have a good discussion until you start using logical arguments and stop slandering anyone who doesn't agree with you. Re: the last post Huginns and Rapiers and Interceptors are not good counters. Any competent nano-gang will focus fire on these ships and destroy them long before they are a threat when they are a part of a mixed gang, leaving the mixed out of the solution. They can be a reasonable counter to one ship, but you must have significant numbers of these ships before its going to start to matter. Which means if your opponent has two HACs you need four interceptors to make a tackle and DPS to kill one of them before they get your ceptors or get out of range. Not to even mention the problem with rapiers and Huginns being part of the problem. A single ship is the counter to a generalized fitting. It would be like saying "A LAR making you immune to all ships of any size and any composition so long as one of them isn't a curse is totally balanced". Its not, and nano's aren't in the same vein. A more generalized counter is needed, that or everyone is going to be flying nano-gangs[as soon as skill points allow] because of the obvious advantages that are found with drastically reducing your risk while increasing your ability to catch and destroy targets. You have been told how to counter nano gangs and told to also check kb's for the proof but you do not bother nor do you try out the various ways of doing it, all you do is claim it does not work while not even trying it yourself or having any experience at it at all. If your huggins, rapiers and hyenas are getting killed by nano gangs then i suggest you get better commanders and bring a better mix of ships to defend them with.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.16 19:58:00 - [24] Originally by: Goumindong How do you defend a hyena from volley damage?[Not to mention that anything of decent size will just run away from your rapiers/huginns out of your scram range and leave, and/or pull them all the way out past your RR threshold.] Also, ive checked the killboards, they all support my argument. The vast majority of nano-ship deaths are due to nano-ships, and the few others are too scarce and varied to attribute to anything regarding a strategy or cause of anything except pilot error. You only see what you want to see on killboards tbh and if a huggin or rapier has summat locked and double webbed it ain't running anywhere fast bud and you should virtually insta pop any ship they have tackled. Now stop quoting from your theoretical manual and get some xp before you start claiming things you have no clue about.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.16 20:04:00 - [25] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: stinger7 You only see what you want to see on killboards tbh and if a huggin or rapier has summat locked and double webbed it ain't running anywhere fast bud and you should virtually insta pop any ship they have tackled. Now stop quoting from your theoretical manual and get some xp before you start claiming things you have no clue about. Says the man with no clue what inertia is. edit: To expand. If you have a huginn or rapier on grid with you have basically two options you kill it[always a good option] and/or burn away from it. This means that if you are webbed[and not outside of range by the time he gets you], you are very likely to drift out of that web range. 70KM (The range of a remote repper) of drift WoW Says the an with virtually zero combat experience and none against nano ships: Having missiles in the air and guns firing just before the target ship is webbed ensures its virtual instapop as soon as its slowed by the rapiers but you need to log in and try it to know that as the eve fitting tool does not show you it only combat xp does.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.16 20:15:00 - [26] Originally by: Goumindong Again, if its slowed by the webbers. And yea, going 5km/s, 70km isn't that much of a big deal anymore. Once they are out of web range you have failed and must maintain your tight nit RR ball or will have targets picked off one by one. If the nanos cant, then they just leave and guess what, you tie not win. Which is the entire problem, in being no way to kill them without them there is no reason to do anything buy fly in nano-gangs. You did not answer this i wonder why Having missiles in the air and guns firing just before the target ship is webbed ensures its virtual instapop as soon as its slowed by the rapiers/huggins (this is called using combat experiance), but you need to log in and try it to actually know that as the eve fitting tool does not show you it only combat xp does. And as far as fleet disengaging this: I am well aware that goons throw ships away all the time and they say they do not care about kd or any other stat apparently but every FC in the game will run from a fleet that he thinks will kick his butt so that = a draw as well, the difference with a nano gang is that they may try to engage giving both sides a chance to get kills.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.16 20:51:00 - [27] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Ephemeron There's a large war going on between the Northern alliances. If you watch either side, you'll notice that nanogangs have very little impact there. Most of the pvp happens with conventional fleet setup sniper bs and cap ships. Nanoships always play a smaller role in PvP, while slow battleships reign supreme. Giving even more power to the battleships is just unbalanced. If we really care about the balance between ship tactics, we should nerf sniper battleships, nerf cap ships, and boost nanoships. Because right now nanoships are much less useful. Support plays just as important part in these fleets as it always has, from fast tacklers, to dictors, to anti-support[all of the best of which are HACs], these can win and lose a battle just as much as battleships can. There is no shortage of smaller ships involved in 0.0 strategic warfare. But the prevalence of nano-gangs does not just remove the utility of battleships from non-strategic warfare, but also the utility of all ships that might not fall into that category, like battlecruisers, cruisers, and slow ships, and ships without range bonuses[Astarte, Deimos come to mind]. Battleships will always be a liability in non-strategic roaming ops because their power is balanced by their terrible agility. Nerfing nano-ships would not change this because cruisers and HACs are so much more agile and will continue to be. This is an important attribute in this type of warfare because the speed at which you warp adds up and the size of your ship and the speed at which you warp and move is the prime determinor for the losses you will sustain when you fail to evade a superior gang[as well as the ability of you to do so]. The problem is simply that the advantage is so great, that the ability to disengage so strong that there is no reasonable answer for 0.0 roaming combat except to nano yourself and to do so in numbers. The only advantage nano gangs have over other gangs are that the other gangs are not fitted, mixed or led properly. A sniper gang with a interdictor can wipe out most of a gank/tank fitted gang or send them running without taking a single hit or bit of damage due to the range they engage at, so we should nerf snipers?. Nano gangs are like the cavalry forces used in old style warfare the ride behind enemy lines vastly outnumbered hit a few targets and have the speed to hopefully get away. We are fortunate that we have been given webbing cavalry that can catch and slow them enough to get some kills, if the players are trained properly and know their jobs of course.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.16 21:02:00 - [28] Edited by: stinger7 on 16/04/2008 21:03:40 Originally by: Goumindong Actually i did answer that, read what you quoted again[It seems your combat experience has not let you know what inertia is. Ill give you a hint, its the thing that lets you bump people] And the difference between every other fleet in the game running away is that there is the possibility of catching and killing members of that gang when there is not with the nano-gang. And in the specific instance of landing on the same grid close to one another there is a terribly high chance of killing most of their gang in said instance. But there is not for the nano-gang. You know nothing about inertia in actual combat stop pretending that you do cos if you did you would agree with me that:- Having multiple volleys of missiles in the air (and gunnery ships already firing) before a ship is webbed and having them hit a nano ship after it is webbed is a insta pop inertia or not. If the slower gang moving away is stupid enough to jump from gate to gate instead of bouncing around safe spots they deserve to die your lack of combat xp is just astounding me when you make claims like these. You really have no idea how to fly in small gang combat at all do you, its all from theoretical ideas and stats with you isn't it?.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.16 21:38:00 - [29] Edited by: stinger7 on 16/04/2008 21:38:54 Originally by: Goumindong Really? Then why don't we see this in action? And no, you are wrong, the ship will only insta-pop if its slowed down enough to take significant damage[so we are talking sniping range battleships with faction ammo and cruise ravens? Cause otherwise you aren't going to be insta-poping a nanoship unless its slowed down under about 750m/s, and your sniping BS will still be missing a lot at that point] and at that point its caught[which also means that you are likely either nanoing that huginn/rapier or your opponent was really bad at burning away when he saw one of the webbing ships on overview Also, your probers must really be terrible if you can't get safes on a slower gang and get points long enough kill a target. 1. I do see it in action in fact its one of the best ways to pop nano ships you do not cos you do not pvp much and have never even lost a ship to a nano gang. 2. A gang of T1 mid sized ship damage dealers can easily insta pop a webbed/slowed nano ship it does not need to be ravens or sniper gunnery ships, in fact T1 cruiser and BC sized ships have much better gunnery tracking than their BS counter parts and a higher rof so combined with the missiles in the air its a insta pop easily. 3. 20-22ish secs with implants and rigs to probe summat down in a safe spot so if even a BS pilot cannot warp away while bouncing between SS in that amount of time (plus the probers warp time) he deserves to be popped. You denials are all based on what you think can or cannot happen cos you have never tried it.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.16 22:38:00 - [30] Edited by: stinger7 on 16/04/2008 22:41:18 As i have alread told you i do see it but you do not bcause you do not pvp and have never fought a nano gang or lost a ship to one. A good mix of variable ranged dps ships in a fleet including webbers/tacklers, ewar and logistics is always a good way to have a gang setup its called a balanced fleet and can kill nano ships and gangs quite well tbh. Why the heck would anybody being hunted/probed 1. warp as a gang or 2. re use safe spots when you can make a new one every time you warp?....omg you really have no clue what so ever about actual combat or ship flying do you?.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.16 22:57:00 - [31] Edited by: stinger7 on 16/04/2008 23:03:16 1. I AND OTHERS DO SEE IT AND DO IT, YOU DO NOT COS YOU DO NOT LOG IN AND PVP IN SMALL MIXED GANGS EVER. 2. WARPING AS A GANG WHILE BEING PROBED IS THE WORST THING YOU CAN DO FOR SEVERAL REASONS AND ACTUAL PVPERS KNOW THEM. IM SURE A CLEVER FELLA LIKE YOU CAN FIGURE THEM OUT. AND - 1. YOU CAN EASILY DELETE OLD SAFES AS YOU LAND AND SO AVOIDING WARPING TO OLD SAFES. 2. YOU CAN WARP TO YOUR BUDDIES WHILE THEY ARE IN WARP TO START A NEW SS CHAIN FOR YOURSELF. TALKING TO YOU IS LIKE EDUCATING A TOTAL NOOB ON HOW TO BE A COMBAT PILOT IN EVE. LOG IN AND FLY YOUR SHIPS IN SMALL GANGS AND TRY THESE THINGS OR STFU FOR GODS SAKE.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.16 23:31:00 - [32] Edited by: stinger7 on 16/04/2008 23:35:22 Originally by: Goumindong So where are these gangs that are doing it because if its happening the kills just aren't adding up to what you are claiming. You have been directed to kb's by many ppl on here i suggest you check them Cos they would not be directing you to them if the kills were not there. Oh thats right you did read them and so did others but you and the others claimed it was pilot error that killed them so you could keep your delusion of unkillable nano gangs going.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.16 23:40:00 - [33] Edited by: stinger7 on 16/04/2008 23:54:26 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: stinger7 Originally by: Goumindong So where are these gangs that are doing it because if its happening the kills just aren't adding up to what you are claiming. You have been directed to kb's by many ppl on here i suggest you check them Cos they would not be directing you to them if the kills were not there. I did, they don't contain what they claim to. They do however contain a lot of nano-ships being killed by nano ships which supports my claim. Thats only because you claim (and wrongly so) that the huggin and rapier are nano/speed ships, (moving goal posts much) while they obviously are not and are in fact anti-nano/speed ships as that is where there bonuses are. Have you figured out why its a bad idea to warp as a fleet SS to SS yet btw?... or are you gonna keep that claim up like you have the rest of your absurd ideas.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.17 14:21:00 - [34] Originally by: San Rintu The Ishtar cannot be killed by an inty, as it can just deploy warrior II's, neut/nos it, or even outrun it overloading its MWD. 1. An interceptor should NOT be able to solo kill a nano or normally fitted HAC, wtf kind of game balance would there be if it could ffs. 2. Warrior II's mwd close to your ship then fire a single shot then they need to catch you up again cos they do not mwd and fire at the same time, so im sure a good combat pilot like yourself can figure out how to deal with them like the rest of us did a long time ago. 3. Can only ishtars overload a mwd to run away or can others overload to keep the tackle on them?. Originally by: San Rintu It can really not effectively be killed by a Huginn/Rapier. Either ship cannot kill an Ishtar and two waves of heavy drones before it will pop. It can if the huggin/rapier pilots do not suck and since when do nano gangs split up to get in 1 v 1 fights with interceptos and rapiers/huggins anyway?. Originally by: San Rintu In most situations, you could buy a faction disruptor, orbit at 29km set drones on an enemy and go make a cup of tea...this is not Eve. And after you come back to your PC you would see the inside of your clone bay as you have been popped.....your right this is not eve it is your dream world.
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.17 16:52:00 - [35] Edited by: stinger7 on 17/04/2008 16:53:44 Originally by: WeightedCompanionCube Any of the nano fans like to comment on if the burn-back-to-gate-and-jump tactic available exclusively to very fast ships is something they see as essential for elite level PvP or a cheap trick to get out of combat ? Id say its available to any smallish ship with a mwd fitted and is hardly exclusive to nano fitted ships. Although if a gang has any brains what so ever they will have at least one (depending on the ship being tackled) good tackler assigned the responsibility of not aggroing (so he can jump through and tackle if the ship does burn back to the gate) until it is sure that the ship cannot or is not burning back to the gate. Btw a heavily plated BS with a MWD fitted has enough inertia to push through webbers and make it back to a gate and thats about as non-nano you can get without being a capital ship..
stinger7	Posted - 2008.04.18 09:41:00 - [36] Edited by: stinger7 on 18/04/2008 09:43:36 Originally by: WeightedCompanionCube Originally by: Gamesguy A nano-hac is not the only ship that can burn back to the gate, all frigates, all destroyers, all cruisers, some BCs can pretty much all burn back to the gate, with varying degrees success. And once the chance of success is 100% even against triple-sensor-boosted Hyena's there is a balance issue. Your FC should have the brains to have tacklers on both sides of the gate anyway plus the fact that this problem has been with gate campers since day one of eve nano or no nano, its why bumping was invented but you would know that if you had been properly trained (thats why its not 100% btw).
stinger7 eve tutors inc	Posted - 2008.04.19 20:46:00 - [37] Any ship with a mwd has a good chance to get back to a gate bud especially a plated BS, a nano ship will not reach its top speed in the distance back to the gate so reaps no real benefit from being speed fitted, while i have seen a lot of interceptors and small ships like friggies bounce of gates on more than one occasion.

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