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ImmortalKalo
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Posted - 2008.03.22 11:08:00 -
[1]
Edited by: ImmortalKalo on 22/03/2008 11:12:56
With the recent changes to the falcon, its now clearly overpowered. I think 1 of two things needs to happen. It should either have less jamming power than a rook, or what I really recommend, is strengthening the boost recieved from ECCM.
Fact is in a battle ship with 2 eccm mods on (79.1 sensor strength total), I am still jammed more than 50% of the time by a single falcon, which is not activating all his mods against me, as he is still able to jam an entire small gang. I agree that jamming should be effective, but if I'm going to cripple my ship with 2 mods to counter it, those mods should be able to counter it. I prefer the option of strengthening eccm to make it more effective than making the jamming ships less effective personally. Right now the power is not balanced.
My opinion is that 1 eccm should be effective. 2eccm should be almost garaunteed to keep unjammed as 2 precious midslots to counter 1 ship is already excessive.
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Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.22 11:34:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 22/03/2008 11:35:50
Solution:
Introduce scripts for ECCM modules.
1. Protection by range jamming
2. Protection by cycle time reduction
A T2 ECCM with option 1 loaded should cut enemy ECM ships ECM range into half approximately.
A T2 ECCM with option 2 loaded should cut ECM jam cycles affecting you into half.
With no script loaded it should do 1/4 of each effect.
Why so powerful counter? Because ECM is powerful by its own. Add to that that mid slots are extremely valuable ECCM should be a very powerful protective tool and not a bad joke as it is today.
This will force falcon pilots to make choices at wich range they wanna risk jamming at. Closer range theyll jam many ships even with ECCM protection on them but they risk dying or they can go at 150km but one ECCM will render all their ECM useless.
Why not force falcon pilots into decision making.
my 2 cents
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[Video]Skirmish Warfare |
ImmortalKalo
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Posted - 2008.03.22 11:49:00 -
[3]
Honestly that sounds like a great improvement on my idea.
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Yosarian Manth
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Posted - 2008.03.22 12:14:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: ImmortalKalo
Edited by: ImmortalKalo on 22/03/2008 11:12:56
Fact is in a battle ship with 2 eccm mods on (79.1 sensor strength total), I am still jammed more than 50% of the time by a single falcon
Really?
79.1 sensor strength vs. 14.6 jam strength is 50% jam chance? |
Lyria Skydancer
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Posted - 2008.03.22 12:15:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Yosarian Manth
Originally by: ImmortalKalo
Edited by: ImmortalKalo on 22/03/2008 11:12:56
Fact is in a battle ship with 2 eccm mods on (79.1 sensor strength total), I am still jammed more than 50% of the time by a single falcon
Really?
79.1 sensor strength vs. 14.6 jam strength is 50% jam chance?
Does a falcon have 1 mid slot or whats your problem?
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[Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Yosarian Manth
Pilots Of Honour
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Posted - 2008.03.22 12:21:00 -
[6]
I still think my point stands, it was exaggerated.
You'd have to be really damn lucky to have that amount of correct racial jammers to pull it off. |
Dianeces
Repo Industries
R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.03.22 12:57:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Lyria Faildancer
1. Protection by range jamming
A T2 ECCM with option 1 loaded should cut enemy ECM ships ECM range into half approximately.
We already have this. It's called Sensor Damps. You may have heard of them.
Originally by: Lyria Faildancer
2. Protection by cycle time reduction
A T2 ECCM with option 2 loaded should cut ECM jam cycles affecting you into half.
Only if I get a module that doubles the cycle time for neuts.
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Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.22 13:05:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Dianeces
We already have this. It's called Sensor Damps. You may have heard of them.
No we dont you noob. 1 unbonused damp is not going cut the locking range of a falcon down to half. Im talking about just cutting the ECM range. You try so hard to flame me that youre grasping for straws and you fail miserably because you have no point what so ever. And back you go into your cave.
Originally by: Dianeces
Only if I get a module that doubles the cycle time for neuts.
Neuts only go up to 40km or so. The whole point with the ECM range jamming is to bring the jammer closer so you might have a chance to shoot him when you get a chance to lock. Right now falcons are sitting at 150km range and are untouchable.
Are you just playing dumb or did you really get dropped in your early infant days?
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[Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Cain Calzon
Genco
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.03.22 13:51:00 -
[9]
if ur gonna start messing with ECCM on the falcon and rook then u better start upping its defenses(shield,armor,struct), atm the falcon and rooks defense is paper thin and ECCM is its only way of reducing the dmg taken to itself.
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ZeitGeits
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.03.22 14:43:00 -
[10]
Edited by: ZeitGeits on 22/03/2008 14:44:18
With a sensor strength of 79.1 you'll get jammed 17.951% of the time by a max skilled (Recon Ships V, Signal Dispersion V) Falcon pilot using the right racial jammer (best named or T2, best named or T2 SDAs in the lows) on you. 33.508% chance to jam with 2 racial jammers, 45.781% jam chance with 3 racial jammers. A typical Falcon fitting will have a MWD II, SB II and 5 jammers on board, 2 of those jammers of the same race.
Optimal range of the jammers with Long Range Jamming IV and two particle dispersion projectors is 239 km (?).
You can easily counter a falcon in a roaming gang (i.e. the falcon pilot has not set up multiple sniper spots on the grid you're fighting on) by burning towards him in an interceptor. The interceptor doesn't even have to tackle him, just give warpins for other ships. The falcon pilot is forced to cloak, warps off and spends the next minute or so setting up a new sniper spot. Most people don't realize how thin the defenses of a falcon are and that most pilots will get out as soon as something appears within warp scramble range around them.
Or how about a dedicated anti ECM sniper? A T1 frigate warping directly on top of the falcon's sniper spot by using bookmarks 100km away from the object you're fighting around?
You don't need to buff ECCM modules to totally negate a falcon.
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Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.22 14:46:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 22/03/2008 14:46:00
But all those counters involve a good gang. I mean there are mobules there to use so why shouldnt they get boosted so its remotely possible to defend yourself when alone against a falcon + friends?
Any change that promotes more towards solo and less towards blobing is good in my book.
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[Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Relyen
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2008.03.22 14:57:00 -
[12]
Originally by: ZeitGeits
Edited by: ZeitGeits on 22/03/2008 14:44:18
With a sensor strength of 79.1 you'll get jammed 17.951% of the time by a max skilled (Recon Ships V, Signal Dispersion V) Falcon pilot using the right racial jammer (best named or T2, best named or T2 SDAs in the lows) on you. 33.508% chance to jam with 2 racial jammers, 45.781% jam chance with 3 racial jammers. A typical Falcon fitting will have a MWD II, SB II and 5 jammers on board, 2 of those jammers of the same race.
Optimal range of the jammers with Long Range Jamming IV and two particle dispersion projectors is 239 km (?).
This isn't entirely true, it's not how chance based stuff works.
Having 3 racial jammers won't give the falcon a 45.781% chance to jam. It is still at 17.951% chance, but 3 chances to do it. But each chance is still only a 17.951% chance.
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ZeitGeits
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.03.22 15:06:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Relyen
This isn't entirely true, it's not how chance based stuff works.
Having 3 racial jammers won't give the falcon a 45.781% chance to jam. It is still at 17.951% chance, but 3 chances to do it. But each chance is still only a 17.951% chance.
I'm not saying that each of the jammers has a 45% chance of jamming the ship; but using all three of them on the same ship at the same time gives a 45% chance that one of the jammers will succeed in jamming the opponent.
The formula should be: (1-((1-E)^n)))*100 E=jam strength/sensor strength.
Is that wrong?
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Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.22 15:09:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Relyen
Originally by: ZeitGeits
Edited by: ZeitGeits on 22/03/2008 14:44:18
With a sensor strength of 79.1 you'll get jammed 17.951% of the time by a max skilled (Recon Ships V, Signal Dispersion V) Falcon pilot using the right racial jammer (best named or T2, best named or T2 SDAs in the lows) on you. 33.508% chance to jam with 2 racial jammers, 45.781% jam chance with 3 racial jammers. A typical Falcon fitting will have a MWD II, SB II and 5 jammers on board, 2 of those jammers of the same race.
Optimal range of the jammers with Long Range Jamming IV and two particle dispersion projectors is 239 km (?).
This isn't entirely true, it's not how chance based stuff works.
Having 3 racial jammers won't give the falcon a 45.781% chance to jam. It is still at 17.951% chance, but 3 chances to do it. But each chance is still only a 17.951% chance.
No he is correct. The chance to jam a ship when youre in a falcon increases with the amount of ECM modules youre activating on the target.
Yes each jammer module has the same chance but if you use more then one then your chances increase of jamming your target.
Its actually your statement that is wrong.
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[Video]Skirmish Warfare |
ZeitGeits
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.03.22 15:09:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 22/03/2008 14:46:00
But all those counters involve a good gang. I mean there are mobules there to use so why shouldnt they get boosted so its remotely possible to defend yourself when alone against a falcon + friends?
Any change that promotes more towards solo and less towards blobing is good in my book.
I don't think that the usual gangs I fly in could be called blobbing and I don't think anybody realistically expects to keep his ship or pod when faced with 5 reasonably well skilled pilots in T2 ships regardless if they have a falcon with them or not. On the other hand I'm aware of the frustration ECM causes because most of the time you can't fight back and neither FOF missiles nor auto aggroing drones are enough to drive a tackler away. The effect of ECM on battles is balanced, the effect on the player behind the keyboard might not be.
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Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.22 15:14:00 -
[16]
Originally by: ZeitGeits
I don't think that the usual gangs I fly in could be called blobbing and I don't think anybody realistically expects to keep his ship or pod when faced with 5 reasonably well skilled pilots in T2 ships regardless if they have a falcon with them or not. On the other hand I'm aware of the frustration ECM causes because most of the time you can't fight back and neither FOF missiles nor auto aggroing drones are enough to drive a tackler away. The effect of ECM on battles is balanced, the effect on the player behind the keyboard might not be.
I dont agree. If I take out my battleship up against a gang camping. They might have a mix of cruisers and frigs. I got a bigger ship but they got more numbers. The problem is if they have a falcon it totally tilts the balance towards the camping side. A fair fight turns into a boring gank where the outnumbered side cant defend itself.
You cannot see the falcon and you cannot kill the falcon because he has several bookmarks around the gate. Its extremely boring that you can camp a gate and be invincible. All you need is a falcon, a rapier, some stealth bombers and an inty. There is no way in hell youre gonna bust any of them how hard you even try. Either they win or they run or cloak.
This is why its so important that ECCM actually works. You cant see a falcon coming and they tilt a fair fight by far too much.
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[Video]Skirmish Warfare |
ZeitGeits
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.03.22 15:51:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
I dont agree. If I take out my battleship up against a gang camping. They might have a mix of cruisers and frigs. I got a bigger ship but they got more numbers. The problem is if they have a falcon it totally tilts the balance towards the camping side. A fair fight turns into a boring gank where the outnumbered side cant defend itself.
You cannot see the falcon and you cannot kill the falcon because he has several bookmarks around the gate. Its extremely boring that you can camp a gate and be invincible. All you need is a falcon, a rapier, some stealth bombers and an inty. There is no way in hell youre gonna bust any of them how hard you even try. Either they win or they run or cloak.
This is why its so important that ECCM actually works. You cant see a falcon coming and they tilt a fair fight by far too much.
Okay, we don't have the same opinion as I don't think you should have a chance to survive in that situation but let us ignore that for the moment.
Let's talk about what you would like ECCM to be able to do (I didn't really understand your first post). I don't think that a module that cuts the falcon's ecm range in half if the pilot activates ECM on a target that has that module fitted is possible codewise. I assume you want ECCM to get an projected effect on ECM boats plus the bonus on sensor strength.
Something like:
Projected ECCM - Ladar II
A dedicated anti electronic warfare array that provides a significant boost to sensor strength (x%) and reduces the ECM optimal of ships it is activated on by y% for a short time.
Right?
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Dianeces
Repo Industries
R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.03.22 15:56:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
No we dont you noob. 1 unbonused damp is not going cut the locking range of a falcon down to half. Im talking about just cutting the ECM range. You try so hard to flame me that youre grasping for straws and you fail miserably because you have no point what so ever. And back you go into your cave.
Neuts only go up to 40km or so. The whole point with the ECM range jamming is to bring the jammer closer so you might have a chance to shoot him when you get a chance to lock. Right now falcons are sitting at 150km range and are untouchable.
Are you just playing dumb or did you really get dropped in your early infant days?
Wow. Someone's testy today.
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Mahn AlNouhm
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.03.22 16:43:00 -
[19]
No question about it, the Falcon is a force multiplier in a big, big way. ECM boats will turn the tide of a fight. Problem with your argument is that you fail to take into consideration that practically every mid and low slot in a falcon is packed with modules that will make it a more effective jammer. It *cant* do anything else even vaguely well. It has no tank, no gank, it's slow as molasses, doesn't have a drone bay, etc. If you make it possible for one BS to totally gimp the effectiveness of a completely focused ship by the use of one module, well, that sounds a little overpowered to me.
Another fact: ECCM works and works well. If you're in a battleship with a sensor strength of 79, I can GUARANTEE that you won't be jammed half the time even if the falcon pilot has all its jammers on you. It won't happen. We could take it to sisi to test the idea. The law of diminishing returns applies to ECM. A 17 percent chance to jam times four jammers, in practice, does NOT equate to a 68 percent rate of success. By that same math, you would have also have 332 percent chance of failure. I'm not exactly sure what the real numbers are (I'm a poli sci major. Math is like sunlight to my vampirism), but in game experience has shown me you chance to jam is much, much, much less than that. I often fly with an ECCM module on my falcon, giving me a sensor strength of 54 (let alone 79. That's carrier level sensor strength) and I have NEVER been jammed by a falcon or rook. One little mistake people make with eccm, hear me out, is that they forget to activate the module. I'm not even kidding. It doesn't do anything for you just sitting in your mids, you've got to turn it on. I'm not trying to be condescending or anything, either.
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Mahn AlNouhm
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.03.22 16:58:00 -
[20]
Furthermore, to illustrate balance, if you stuff just about any ship with ECCM and Projected ECCM mods, your presence would effectively neutralize a falcon. The Falcon is a SUPPORT ship. If you want to counter a support ship, you need to bring anti support. Eagles, zealots, any nanoghey ship (especially the gallente drone nanos), and stealth bombers make falcon pilots really nervous (a stealth bomber has a sensor strength of 24, base. Throw an ECCM on there, and you're practically impervious to jamming). A dedicated ECCM platform won't make him nervous, but it will make him useless. Fact is, there are a ton of counters for ECM. If you are unwilling to utilize them, well, that's not particularly a balance issue, is it?
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Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.22 17:13:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 22/03/2008 17:14:14
The core problem is still that:
-ECM is a problem if you are on the outnumbered side.
-ECM has alot of counters as long as youre not outnumbered.
I also have no problem with rook being this effective though. The main problem is the falcon. It has basically no drawbacks compared to a rook. It just appears in middle of fights and totally turns the tide of battle.
If powerful EW like this is allowed to exist at 150km range then atleast limit it to the non cloaking combat recon and not the damn cloaking one.
ECM is the ONLY ew that protects tacklers. If enemy ship cant lock you can tackle it with everything from webs to scramblers. Thats just imbalanced combined with cloaks.
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[Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Mahn AlNouhm
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.03.22 17:47:00 -
[22]
Quote:
-ECM is a problem if you are on the outnumbered side.
-ECM has alot of counters as long as youre not outnumbered.
In my experience, being outnumbered is generally a recipe for disaster, ECM or not. Blobs are irritating, but effective. A force multiplier like an ECM boat when coupled with a larger gang than yours means you're about to get the shiite kicked out of you. In the gangs I fly with, we use ECM to leverage our capacity to take on larger, more powerful gangs than ourselves. There are few things as satisfying as taking out 3 BS and a command ship with a falcon, a black bird, an inty, and 2 BCs.
For the record, my Rook fits include a cloaking device, too.
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Venkul Mul
Vikramaditya
DO JAJA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.22 17:48:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Mahn AlNouhm
Another fact: ECCM works and works well. If you're in a battleship with a sensor strength of 79, I can GUARANTEE that you won't be jammed half the time even if the falcon pilot has all its jammers on you. It won't happen. We could take it to sisi to test the idea. The law of diminishing returns applies to ECM. A 17 percent chance to jam times four jammers, in practice, does NOT equate to a 68 percent rate of success. By that same math, you would have also have 332 percent chance of failure. I'm not exactly sure what the real numbers are (I'm a poli sci major. Math is like sunlight to my vampirism), but in game experience has shown me you chance to jam is much, much, much less than that.
Success rate of 1 module 17%, so failure = 83%
2 modules against the same target failure of jamming = 83%*83%= 68.89% (jamming success 31.11%)
3 modules 83%*83%*83%= 57.17% (jamming success 42.83%)
4 modules 83%*83%*83%*83%= 47.45% (jamming success 52.55%)
and so on
Pretty simple.
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Zarin
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.03.22 19:05:00 -
[24]
So one volley the falcon on the 50% of the time you're not jammed ? It's really not that hard. He only has to miss one cycle and he's dead.
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Matrixcvd
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.22 19:15:00 -
[25]
ECM is fine, ECCM works fine... stop hurting your brain coming up with counters and changes that aren't needed. There are only 4 ships in the game that can jam, and only 2 that can jam out to 200km reliably. Get use to it
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Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.22 19:25:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Zarin
So one volley the falcon on the 50% of the time you're not jammed ? It's really not that hard. He only has to miss one cycle and he's dead.
Oh ok, because the average ship or gang has a ship that can volley falcons at 150km distance? I think not.
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[Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Waxau
The Fated
Odyssey.
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Posted - 2008.03.22 19:28:00 -
[27]
Agreed with Matrix - Any decent ECM pilot, even with max skills, can easily tell when someone has fitted ECCM. It makes SUCH a difference, that it means to jam you, we need to use atleast double the ecm. And even then, thats not a sure fire chance.
A falcon with 7 ECM can jam WITH HUGE AMOUNTS of luck...7 BS. If those bs fit ECCM, we'll be hugely flukey to jam 2 or 3. It makes that big a difference.
And OP - The clear fact of you 'exaggerating' (as you "claimed")your post either means 1. You dont understand ECM and how it works (50% jam,....lol)
Or 2. You always hate fighting it, cant be arsed to fit ECCM, and so are here unleasing your frustration.
Fit ECCM, and get on. The falcon is 'clearly' not overpowered, but effective. Much like nanoships, or dreads vs POS and capitals.
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Stakhanov
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.03.22 19:29:00 -
[28]
Arguments based on the falcon's fragility , lack of dps or tank are silly. No recon can do its job well at 100km+ and keep shooting targets. When your ship is 100km away from the battlefield , you avoid damage by warping out if one of your jams fail.
ECCM mods (especially lowslot) just need a stat increase imo. ECM boats had their bonus increased several times. They have no use besides preventing jamming , there is no way ECCM could become overpowered or make ECM useless - it's self balancing once the counter is adequate (people will only fit them often as long as ECM is common)
Right now ECCM is almost never worth fitting - only marginally useful if you have no ewar to counter jammers , but want to engage anyway.
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
edit: Wow, that was unpleasant, I felt pity for someone. Won't happen again.
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Waxau
The Fated
Odyssey.
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Posted - 2008.03.22 19:31:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Zarin
So one volley the falcon on the 50% of the time you're not jammed ? It's really not that hard. He only has to miss one cycle and he's dead.
Oh ok, because the average ship or gang has a ship that can volley falcons at 150km distance? I think not.
Many 0.0 fleets are fitted for snipe (bar from roaming gangs) and your average roaming gang nowdays has plenty of nanos. Getting a point on a falcon really isnt that hard.
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Waxau
The Fated
Odyssey.
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Posted - 2008.03.22 19:33:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Stakhanov
Arguments based on the falcon's fragility , lack of dps or tank are silly. No recon can do its job well at 100km+ and keep shooting targets. When your ship is 100km away from the battlefield , you avoid damage by warping out if one of your jams fail.
ECCM mods (especially lowslot) just need a stat increase imo. ECM boats had their bonus increased several times. They have no use besides preventing jamming , there is no way ECCM could become overpowered or make ECM useless - it's self balancing once the counter is adequate (people will only fit them often as long as ECM is common)
Right now ECCM is almost never worth fitting - only marginally useful if you have no ewar to counter jammers , but want to engage anyway.
ECCM COULD do with having an added bonus. But the ratio of jamming to ECCMs effectiveness is just right. Its a hell of a hurdle for ecm ships (may not be in the victims eyes, when all they see is that theyre jammed, but for the pilots using it...it takes alot more jammers).
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