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Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.03.22 19:45:00 - [31] Originally by: Waxau Many 0.0 fleets are fitted for snipe (bar from roaming gangs) and your average roaming gang nowdays has plenty of nanos. Getting a point on a falcon really isnt that hard. Oh, so I have to nano all my ships and also bring alot of friends to deal with ecm? Yeah I like where this is going. Its exactly where eve shouldnt be going...into lame-land. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Mahn AlNouhm	Posted - 2008.03.22 19:52:00 - [32] You could also bring an eagle or a snipe fitted ferox that can reach out to ECM ranges. ECM boats don't move around a whole hell of a lot, so tracking shouldn't be an issue, and they sport paper tanks. You could also bring a stealth bomber. A couple volleys and falcon = dead. ECCM makes them useless. Nano will keel them. Lots of options. . . . Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Stakhanov	Posted - 2008.03.22 19:55:00 - [33] Originally by: Waxau ECCM COULD do with having an added bonus. But the ratio of jamming to ECCMs effectiveness is just right. Its a hell of a hurdle for ecm ships (may not be in the victims eyes, when all they see is that theyre jammed, but for the pilots using it...it takes alot more jammers). Well , that's the problem. In a situation where the jammer is very unlikely to get caught (ok , maybe not 0.0 fleet warfare) he did his job as a force multiplier well enough if he permajams half of the target gang instead of all of it. It makes no sense to fit a module that make the odds half less desperate , unless the enemy is willing to engage outnumbered - but then it's easier to come with more ECM than he has and permajam the smaller gang with zero risk of losses. I have no problem with ECM being powerful. The issue here is that it remains just as useful regardless of the amount of ECCM the enemy gang fits to counter. Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu edit: Wow, that was unpleasant, I felt pity for someone. Won't happen again.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.22 21:01:00 - [34] Originally by: Mahn AlNouhm A couple volleys and falcon = dead. ECCM makes them useless. Nano will keel them. This is exactly one of the problems. Falcons can operate from 100-150km range. This means its long enough range to warp between bookmarks and yes trust me good falcon pilots have bookmarks all over the place on various gates. He will just warp between bookmarks around the gate as soon as you lock him. It doesnt work. So please lets stick to stuff that actually works and not theory-craft too much. ECM and ECCM needs a looksie. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Nathan West Cataclysm Enterprises HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.03.22 21:11:00 - [35] ecm is fine. actually ecm is the only ewar type that is balanced with its counter.
Juha85 Beasts of Burden	Posted - 2008.03.22 21:55:00 - [36] It's funny how ECM suddenly became overpowered when damps were nerferd ^^ ECM is just the same as before. A rook could do the job of a falcon aside from warping cloaked. You didn't hear people whine about rooks when damps were I-Win. --------------------------------------- Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
ImmortalKalo Dark Prophecy Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.22 22:19:00 - [37] I just fought 1v6. I was in a very nice gank bs that I fitted with 3 ECCMS. And even with 3 ECCMS I was still jammed 25% of the cycles. I know the numbers shouldnt be this way, but I know what I see. And what I see is that ECCM IS NOT EFFECTIVE. I completely gimp my ship fitting to counter 1 ship and I cannot. There is no ship in the game that shouldnt have an effective counter, and tbh a blob gang does not constitute an effective answer in my book. Hats off to the goons and bob for blob tactics, but there should be something other than that to win a fight. Thats why ccp created ECCM, and thats why ECCM should work. Fitting 3 ECCMS is completely rediculous, and for it not to work most of the time against the ship u are fitting for is even MORE rediculous. Keep the falcon the way it is, but make the counter work. And on the paper thin response someone had.....the falcon is defensively in the same class as the rest of the covert recons, so please....
Mahn AlNouhm The Bastards	Posted - 2008.03.22 22:28:00 - [38] Quote: This is exactly one of the problems. Falcons can operate from 100-150km range. This means its long enough range to warp between bookmarks and yes trust me good falcon pilots have bookmarks all over the place on various gates. He will just warp between bookmarks around the gate as soon as you lock him. It doesnt work. So please lets stick to stuff that actually works and not theory-craft too much. Don't throw stones at glass houses, bro. Before you knock me for theory crafting, may I point out that you assume every good Falcon pilot is going to be operating in an area that he's spent time painstakingly bookmarking so that he can operate as you suggest. That isn't the norm. I've got bookmarks at a few gates, but I don't usually have the luxury of fighting at prepped battlegrounds. Regardless, your gripe is only applicable with nano setups. A good anti support sniper will be able to pop the falcon at any of the bookmarks the falcon can jam from, without having to move from the body of the fleet. ECCM is NOT underpowered, ECM is NOT overpowered. The ECM ships operate exactly the way they ought to, and there are credible means of countering it in multiple ways. There just isn't a balance problem here. . . .
Spartan dax R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.23 00:13:00 - [39] Edited by: Spartan dax on 23/03/2008 00:13:37 Originally by: ImmortalKalo I just fought 1v6. I was in a very nice gank bs that I fitted with 3 ECCMS. And even with 3 ECCMS I was still jammed 25% of the cycles. I know the numbers shouldnt be this way, but I know what I see. And what I see is that ECCM IS NOT EFFECTIVE. I completely gimp my ship fitting to counter 1 ship and I cannot. There is no ship in the game that shouldnt have an effective counter, and tbh a blob gang does not constitute an effective answer in my book. Are you nuts? You were the only target for a single jamming ship that could devote every single one of his jammers on your sorry ass and you managed to stay unjammed 3/4 of the fight? And you think that is bad? What else do you want, a chocolate mint in your pod when you undock?
ImmortalKalo Dark Prophecy Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.23 02:39:00 - [40] Edited by: ImmortalKalo on 23/03/2008 02:42:56 yes that is what I expect. With 3 mods to counter his 1-2 racials, I do expect eccm to work. 3/4 of my midslots were devoted to countering his potential 1/3 of midslots devoted to jamming me. Of course his extra racials have a minute chance of jamming too, but come on. How many mid slots should it take to effectively counter 1-2 mods? I think 3 is already too many. How many does it take to counter a webber? 1mwd. How many to counter a neut? 1cap injector. How many to counter a tracking disruptor? 1tracking computer. A damp? 1sensorbooster. And it goes on. Why can I not counter 1-2 racials with 1-2eccms? Of course this is chance based and we all understand that, but I do feel that if you are willing to protect yourself from 1 type of mod by donating an equal amount of slots to countering it, it should work VERY well. Jamming is more effective than other EW in nature, so it's very nice if its on yourside, but hardly a fight if you cant protect yourself from it. To the person making the case of sniper to snipe out falcons, of course that works in gangs with more people than the falcon can jam. But again I dont believe that if blobbing is the only effective counter then its no counter at all. If you are fighting 3v3 then its really a 3v0 fight. Snipers cannot fit eccm to snipe a falcon if they have to devote mid slots to sensor boosters, tracking computers etc, which they do. So the one fit you suggest most capable to counter a falcon is the fit most easy to jam due to lack of mid slots for ECCM. Again, I'm not saying to nerf the falcon. Just boost the counter to it. Other races have fewer mid slots on average to give to eccm so when they fit to counter this, those mid slots should count. ECCM is NOT strong enough. If you feel it is, lets do a 2v2 and I'll bring a falcon on my side. ECM needed a boost and it got it. But lets have a counter that actually works please.
Zanquis Universal Exports FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.03.23 03:37:00 - [41] Edited by: Zanquis on 23/03/2008 03:39:35 Actually I think it would be a good idea maybe change the falcon to be more tanky and instead of giving it a bonus to ECM it should get a bonus to remote ECCM modules which would allow it to counter ECCM and release a target from it. if they did this they should also increase its natural sensor strength to make it very hard to jam ****************************************** CEO of CSS Ltd.**
Dianeces Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.03.23 04:04:00 - [42] Originally by: Zanquis if they did this they should also increase its natural sensor strength to make it very hard to jam Falcon has the second highest sub-capital sensor strength in the game, behind only the Rook. It's fine where it is, tbh.
Kransthow AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.03.23 12:45:00 - [43] the caldari ewar ships just seem overpowered because all other forms of ewar suck ass. in my opinion they should do away with racial ewar and give all the recons bonuses to all types of ewar
TZeer BURN EDEN Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2008.03.23 14:05:00 - [44] To the Op. 1: Going against a superior force. Props to you. 2: Fitting a few modules and thinking it will safe your sorry ass from getting ganked, LOL!! Multiple things you could have done to counter the falcon. 1- Brought you own jamming friend. 2- Dampening friend 3- Brought any friends at all, if they had been fitted with ECCM the falcon pilot would had a ****ty day at work. And yeah, the falcon is paperthin, 2 volleys from a cruise raven would have killed him, would have taken you about 7 sec to do.
Xavia Cameron Southern Cross Incorporated Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.23 14:18:00 - [45] There are a few holes in your logic: 1) You are versing A caldari T2 cruiser. It IS going to outrange you (Its all we can do :/) 2) It's one and only damn job is to take 2-3 (4 at a reach) ships out of the fight. 3) You assume 1-2 mods should be able to negate at least 4-6 mods (1-2 racials, 3 SDAs and some times 2 SDA rigs) 4) If ECM Cannot take out more ships then it itself needs, It is a waste of time. ECM is an odds turner, it is no good if the odds would have been turned just as much if you brough combat. 5) Chance based ECM works both ways. On a particularly bad day, you will have trouble jamming cruisers. Others you will perma-jam carriers (yes, plural). I've had both. 6) ECCM is designed to stop casual ECM, just like a tank will only stop casual DPS. 7) If an ECM ship does not jam a clean majority of tackle AND snipe. It is dead. Hell, if you give it a funny look, it will probably die. 8) If any amount of ECCM could guarantee anti ECM, then you would see anti-ECM ships everywhere. ECM would die. And it would be all your fault. (and ECCM would get nerfed back to the stone age) -- Fix Clone Vat Bays Fix Local
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.23 18:05:00 - [46] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 22/03/2008 14:46:00 But all those counters involve a good gang. I mean there are mobules there to use so why shouldnt they get boosted so its remotely possible to defend yourself when alone against a falcon + friends? Any change that promotes more towards solo and less towards blobing is good in my book. But the Falcon itself is a purely gang ship. It can't kill anything on its own. So by your own argument it should have its tank & DPS increased (a lot) to compensate... If the Falcon fails a jam cycle it has nothing to protect itself with. Any range-fit BS will probably instapop it. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Selnix North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.03.23 18:27:00 - [47] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I dont agree. If I take out my battleship up against a gang camping. They might have a mix of cruisers and frigs. I got a bigger ship but they got more numbers. The problem is if they have a falcon it totally tilts the balance towards the camping side. A fair fight turns into a boring gank where the outnumbered side cant defend itself. Can't ... stop ... laughing! If I read that correctly, you in your clearly overpowered battleship, intend to jump through a gate solo, kill a small gang of cruisers and frigates and live to brag about it. At the same time you complain that if those frigs and cruisers have EW, you can't kill them so you get ganked by a numerically superior force of people working together. 2 things to think about. 1: If they have you jammed, you aren't agressed, go back to the gate and jump. 2: If you and your, assuming you have some, friends were out camping a gate and someone was able to jump in with their (insert soloomgwtfpwnmobile here) and take your entire gang, would you still be whining? Properly fitted Falcon, with a good two months of extra training spent on specialization is effective at jamming 3-5 ships that do not have ECCM, are not BSes, and are not recons. Insert any of those three into the mix and the odds of a jam decrease drastically. Said Falcon should not be close enough to the hostiles to do any dps with the weapons it is able to fit so may as well not even have them. Said Falcon also can not fit a tank of any sort if it wishes to be an efficient ECM boat. So on one side you have the pwnmobile rolling out expecting to kill a ton of people solo and on the other you have a ship that someone spent a ton of extra time specializing in that has the sole purpose of reducing the damage dealt by the hostiles. A Falcon doesn't kill you, the guys with the Falcon kill you. If you jumped their gang, you jumped into more than you were able to handle to begin with.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.03.23 18:31:00 - [48] I swapped out to the falcon as soon as CCP declared their ridiculous sensro damp nerf. I used to be a arazu pilot, and could see it was gogin to become pretty useless. As a falcon pilot now, i can say that the falcons is MASSIVLEY OVERPOWERED. It is not uncomon in fleet fights for me to be jamming 5 ships at once. The only thing that messes with me is another falcon. The falcon in its present state is better then the pre nerf arazu. When you compare it to the sorry state of the arazu now, they are un compareable. SKUNK
ZeitGeits SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.03.23 19:43:00 - [49] Edited by: ZeitGeits on 23/03/2008 19:45:04 Originally by: Le Skunk I swapped out to the falcon as soon as CCP declared their ridiculous sensro damp nerf. I used to be a arazu pilot, and could see it was gogin to become pretty useless. As a falcon pilot now, i can say that the falcons is MASSIVLEY OVERPOWERED. It is not uncomon in fleet fights for me to be jamming 5 ships at once. The only thing that messes with me is another falcon. The falcon in its present state is better then the pre nerf arazu. When you compare it to the sorry state of the arazu now, they are un compareable. SKUNK Not, it's not. A pre nerf arazu was able to solo other ships, can't do that with a falcon. Ships that threaten or neutralize a falcon in a fleet fight: any T2 sniping BS, cruise raven, scorpion, eagle, long range zealot, interceptors, vagabond, cerberus. I really wonder who you're fighting against because usually a falcon has the top position on the to-kill-list of any competent fc. And just because you can't run around killing battleships solo anymore doesn't make an arazu useless either: the ability to warp cloaked and long range points sound pretty useful to me.
Back Again Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.23 19:48:00 - [50] Originally by: Le Skunk As a falcon pilot now, i can say that the falcons is MASSIVLEY OVERPOWERED. SKUNK Ohh, really? And that is why you fly the Falcon this "MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF TIMES"? Lachesis 848 Arazu 115 Falcon 67 Maybe we can start to ask to the Dev Team to nerf ECM in general because you fly the Scorpion too and, maybe, you think it is 'MASSIVE OVERPOWERED"... No signature here, only the bright light of a ship exploding right in front of me... Ohhh, wait, I'm in a pod!! It was my ship!!!
TZeer BURN EDEN Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2008.03.23 21:07:00 - [51] We all know whats gonna happend. People whine about the falcon, it`s massively overpowered and so on. And people states that all other ecm ships are ok. CCP brings out the nerfbat Boom, suddenly you are jammed by a rook instead, and omg it can deal some small damage, OVERPOWERED!! NERF!! ECM was never an issue before the damps got a kick in the nuts. And the only thing that changed was that the falcons bonus was changed to the same bonus all the other T2 jamming ships had. On top of that, the falcon was also the only force recon ship that didnt have the same bonus as the combat recons. Minmatar, Amarr and Gallente had the same bonus on both their combat and force recon ships. Should we gimp the bonus on the other force recon as well then? Cause they can warp cloaked? If you guys used the same time and energy in making constructive posts about boosting the other ships racial ew, instead of throwing ****posts about nerfing eachother into oblivion.... maybe you would get somewhere....
J Valkor Invicta.	Posted - 2008.03.23 21:26:00 - [52] If only there were midslot items that strengthened your defense against jamming. Or perhaps some sort of gank link that boosted the resistance to jamming of everyone in your group.
Spartan dax R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.23 22:54:00 - [53] Originally by: J Valkor If only there were midslot items that strengthened your defense against jamming. Or perhaps some sort of gank link that boosted the resistance to jamming of everyone in your group. Oh hush you! We all know that the Gallente infowar links are the most useless gangbuffs in Eve. Adding 30% to your sensor strenght means nothing, nothing I tell you! If it doesn't make you immune to something it's completely useless and not worth fitting.
Rawr Cristina Naqam	Posted - 2008.03.24 00:01:00 - [54] ECM (module) is fine and one of the only defences against Nanoships at current. Besides that it's only really effective when used on extremely fragile dedicated ECM ships. IMO ECM Drones are much, much worse. ...
Matrixcvd Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.24 01:45:00 - [55] Originally by: Le Skunk I swapped out to the falcon as soon as CCP declared their ridiculous sensro damp nerf. I used to be a arazu pilot, and could see it was gogin to become pretty useless. As a falcon pilot now, i can say that the falcons is MASSIVLEY OVERPOWERED. It is not uncomon in fleet fights for me to be jamming 5 ships at once. The only thing that messes with me is another falcon. The falcon in its present state is better then the pre nerf arazu. When you compare it to the sorry state of the arazu now, they are un compareable. SKUNK first to the moron with the comments about getting ganked, you are an idiot, second to this quote, arazu can still solo can't it? a falcon can not end of story
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.24 02:21:00 - [56] Falcon is indeed the most powerful EW oriented recon there. I don't want to nerf it, even tho I think to pre-boosted falcon was already good enough. I'm for increasing ECCM strength. I think t2 ECCM should be upped from 96% to 120%. Even with 120% boost, it won't make that much of a difference. We shouldn't forget that ECCM is one of those mods that doesn't have any general purpose benefit, it's strictly a counter to a specific enemy attack, and it's not very effective at that. If ECCM had some additional benefits, such as locking range, targeting speed, whatever, then it would be more worthwhile. But as a purely defensive module, it is not powerful enough.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.03.24 06:00:00 - [57] Originally by: Back Again Originally by: Le Skunk As a falcon pilot now, i can say that the falcons is MASSIVLEY OVERPOWERED. SKUNK Ohh, really? And that is why you fly the Falcon this "MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF TIMES"? Lachesis 848 Arazu 115 Falcon 67 Maybe we can start to ask to the Dev Team to nerf ECM in general because you fly the Scorpion too and, maybe, you think it is 'MASSIVE OVERPOWERED"... The lachesis was basically a low sec HIC, before HICS were even thought up by CCP. I spent considerable time and isk perfecting the lachesis as the perfect gate tackling machine - hence the 848 kills I was involved in with it in three months. It can hit 2000 scan res, and slap 6 points and a web on a target pretty much instantly. The lachesis is now stippeed of fittings and sat gathering dust in my hanger. The HICS have superceded it in its tackling role. The 115 Arazu kills you point to - were pretty much all made pre nerf. Post nerf - I very rearely fly it. The 67 Falcon kills is a fairly decent tally for the past three months. I only really get it out when theres a decent fight going down. Note how i do NOT jump into an arazu when the ****s going down. Its patently overpowered. If your a falcon pilot I dont balme you for trying to defend it - It does provide a unique experience to fly. As a RECON 5 pilot whos flow both arazu (pre nef) arazu (post nerf) rapier and falcon... I can tell you the falcon is far and away the more usefull/powerful ship. So you cant gank mining barges with it... so what. SKUNK
TZeer BURN EDEN Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2008.03.24 13:03:00 - [58] Originally by: Ephemeron Falcon is indeed the most powerful EW oriented recon there. I don't want to nerf it, even tho I think to pre-boosted falcon was already good enough. I'm for increasing ECCM strength. I think t2 ECCM should be upped from 96% to 120%. Even with 120% boost, it won't make that much of a difference. We shouldn't forget that ECCM is one of those mods that doesn't have any general purpose benefit, it's strictly a counter to a specific enemy attack, and it's not very effective at that. If ECCM had some additional benefits, such as locking range, targeting speed, whatever, then it would be more worthwhile. But as a purely defensive module, it is not powerful enough. They have... Your own ships sensorstrength goes into calculating the % chance of getting scanned down. We can compare it to hardeners. You fit multiple hardeners, but that doesnt mean you are immune for the incommming damage. And you can tank for a specific damage, but it doesnt help you if you get shot by completely different damage. In the end, all the hardeners do is make harder for the enemy to kill you/break your tank. But you still take damage. You fit a complete armor/sheild tank, and if you still go pop, people generally goes "gf, nice damage" Comparing the same with jammers, you are up against a ship thats dedicated to it, and if he knows what he is facing you are looking at mulitple racial jammers+ minimum 2 lowslot modules and maybe rigs. And you want to counter that with only 1 midslotmodule???
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.24 14:47:00 - [59] Originally by: TZeer Comparing the same with jammers, you are up against a ship thats dedicated to it, and if he knows what he is facing you are looking at mulitple racial jammers+ minimum 2 lowslot modules and maybe rigs. And you want to counter that with only 1 midslotmodule??? I'm not asking for ECM immunity. I'm asking for about 30% better chance of not getting jammed. Right now with 1 ECCM fitted on my battleship, an average falcon has about 60% chance of jamming me. And on the 2nd cycle, and on the third. In 1 minute of combat, getting jammed at least once is nearly certain. I want EECM to provide better defense. I'd be happy if a falcon had only 40% chance of jamming me every cycle, with 1 ECCM on. I'm really not asking for a lot here.
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.24 14:56:00 - [60] another thing: I want faction ECCM mods

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