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Astrid Stjerna
Teraa Matar
622
|
Posted - 2012.03.13 21:12:00 -
[181] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:
Amarr religion >>> Slavery SOE >>> Humanitarian Humanitarian and slavery are quit opposite last time I checked. But this is ofcourse a none Amarr none slaveholder opinion and as such holds no means for the Ueberrace.
I was like you once: idealistic, determined to save my people, angry at Amarrians in general. It doesn't do any of us any good to tar everyone with the same brush.
My wife has never owned slaves, and she crossed the border in protest of her government's treatment of slaves in the Empire. She helped me realize that my anger was misdirected, at least as far as the individual Amarrian is concerned. We fight for the same cause, but come at it from different angles: she wants to end the mistreatment of slaves, and I want to end slavery entirely.
I hope that you don't let your anger get the better of you. Monoclegate: because calling it 'Doorgate' would just be silly. |
Ava Starfire
Teraa Matar
206
|
Posted - 2012.03.13 22:46:00 -
[182] - Quote
Theobar Cresthill wrote:Astrid Stjerna wrote: Do you know just what Vitoxin does to a person? Liver and kidney failure, seizures, pulmonary oedema, muscular atrophy, short-term memory impairment, delirium, lung scarification, damage to the heart muscles, fever, respiratory collapse, and all of it occurring within two weeks' time.
I need to investigate these claims for myself.
The fact that you, a "righteous" man, were utterly ignorant of the impacts of Vitoxin on its victims, and the frequency of its use, is sad in ways that I cannot find the words to adequately describe, yet you spew your rhetoric about the "Glory of God".
See you in space, Cresthill. |
Theobar Cresthill
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
14
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Posted - 2012.03.13 23:48:00 -
[183] - Quote
The fact that you, a "righteous" man, were utterly ignorant of the impacts of Vitoxin on its victims, and the frequency of its use, is sad in ways that I cannot find the words to adequately describe, yet you spew your rhetoric about the "Glory of God".
See you in space, Cresthill.[/quote]
You are right. Change "righteous" to "brainwashed" and "presumptuous." And "spew" I did. And if you meet me in space, God would be just to allow you to blow me into space dust. Earlier I said that I had access to the RSS document on vitoxin. That was true. What I didn't tell you was that I never read it until three days ago. I dismissed it as the rhetoric of our enemies, because those I trusted said so. Shame on me for that. I am not a righteous man.
In the last three days at X-7OMU, I have begun to discover how unrighteous. My biggest shame is that I thought I understood the ways of Arzad Hamri. Now I have begun to read the lost fragments. There is so much we were never told or taught. Your anger is justified Ms. Starfire. "The fire in our hearts burns for salvation, redemption, and grace. May the Word of God grant you the courage to save yourself and your people" (The Last Words of Arzad Hamri) |
Merdaneth
Defensores Fidei Curatores Veritatis Alliance
98
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 00:26:00 -
[184] - Quote
Astrid Stjerna wrote:I was like you once: idealistic, determined to save my people, angry at Amarrians in general. It doesn't do any of us any good to tar everyone with the same brush.
My wife has never owned slaves, and she crossed the border in protest of her government's treatment of slaves in the Empire. She helped me realize that my anger was misdirected, at least as far as the individual Amarrian is concerned. We fight for the same cause, but come at it from different angles: she wants to end the mistreatment of slaves, and I want to end slavery entirely.
I hope that you don't let your anger get the better of you.
I cannot say how glad I am to hear this change of heart from you. Thank you ms. Stjerna for your wisdom, I hope that your kin is listening to you.
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Scherezad
Hobgoblin Marketeers
4
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Posted - 2012.03.14 00:51:00 -
[185] - Quote
Theobar Cresthill wrote: You are right. Change "righteous" to "brainwashed" and "presumptuous." And "spew" I did. And if you meet me in space, God would be just to allow you to blow me into space dust. Earlier I said that I had access to the RSS document on vitoxin. That was true. What I didn't tell you was that I never read it until three days ago. I dismissed it as the rhetoric of our enemies, because those I trusted said so. Shame on me for that. I am not a righteous man.
In the last three days at X-7OMU, I have begun to discover how unrighteous. My biggest shame is that I thought I understood the ways of Arzad Hamri. Now I have begun to read the lost fragments. There is so much we were never told or taught. Your anger is justified Ms. Starfire.
You give me hope, Captain Cresthill. Your ability to change your mind when evidence presents itself makes you one of the best of us; it is a rare and enviable trait. I may not agree with you on everything but you have shown that you care about the truth instead of preserving false beliefs. Thank you and best of luck in your search for truth, I hope that you share your findings.
Scherezad.
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Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
72
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 02:45:00 -
[186] - Quote
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
I was like you once: idealistic, determined to save my people, angry at Amarrians in general. It doesn't do any of us any good to tar everyone with the same brush.
My wife has never owned slaves, and she crossed the border in protest of her government's treatment of slaves in the Empire. She helped me realize that my anger was misdirected, at least as far as the individual Amarrian is concerned. We fight for the same cause, but come at it from different angles: she wants to end the mistreatment of slaves, and I want to end slavery entirely.
I hope that you don't let your anger get the better of you.
Ow but dear Sir (since you refer to your other half as wife I reckon you are the one with the pants on ). You completely missunderstand me.
I am not idealistic nor determined to save any people. I am not angry at Amarrians in general. I just have this little contempt for those which try to sugarcoat their actions under an umbrella of love and devotion to their god. If you are a sorry S.O.B. then be man or woman enough to admit to it like I do. Show us some backbone and don't hide like little altarboys.
As to why I like to provoke slavers who don't stand up to what they are. Who knows my reasons.... ah yes.
I do. |
Theobar Cresthill
Viziam Amarr Empire
14
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Posted - 2012.03.14 14:58:00 -
[187] - Quote
Report from X-7OMU research trip.
First on my agenda was to read the RSS report on Vitoxin in its entirety and verify the specific claims of the report. There is unspeakable malice engineered into Vitoxin. No GÇ£loopholesGÇ¥ within the law can account for its widespread use within the Empire. The authorities of the empire have the power to stop its use and eliminate its presence in the Empire. If ever there was a viral manifestation of hell, it is vitoxin. There is nothing of God in it or in its use. To read about it is to sicken the very soul. Perhaps the most damning evidence is the ability of Amarr researchers to know the exact formulation of Vitoc for every mutation of vitoxin. Also damning is the silence of Our Empress regarding the evil of vitoxin. Why hasnGÇÖt she spoken to condemn those who use it and justify its use in GodGÇÖs name? I am ashamed to be associated with this massive injustice.
Second on my agenda was to research the origins of the Hamrite branch of the Amarr faith. While our estate had kept as complete a record as we were able, my uncle Theokrator told me that the Sisters had in their possession, fragments of history giving greater detail that would perhaps change the way we believed if they were known. Indeed!
Prior to the Sham trial and brutal butcher of Saint Arzad, he had begun to be educated in Starkmanir spiritualism. Before the end, there was melding of his own Amarr faith with the Starkmanir beliefs that he had grown to appreciate. Arzad saw no conflict between the two, but rather a God-made harmony. As the time of the end came, Arzad granted self-determining authority to the Starkmanir people and leaders within the Starkmanir were appointed. The Hamri family, in essence, became one with the community they were once over. Part of this can from ArzadGÇÖs early life where he learned to value working with rather than over others.
The Theology council killed him before the full vision could be realized. But, this was not the end. Even though the Amarr authorities did all they could to to expunge all references to Arzad Hamri and his ways from Amarr history, fragments of documentation survived and Hamrite communities of Amarrians survived and developed, though incomplete in their knowledge of the full vision of Saint Arzad. My family, the Cresthills was one such community.
The last words of Arzad Hamri, spoken to his Starkmanir friend Maak complete the vision of Arzad Hamri. These words are as follows:
GÇ£The fire in our hearts burns for salvation, redemption, and grace. May the Word of God grant you the courage to save yourself and your people.GÇ¥
In these words is ArzadGÇÖs identification with the Starkmanir. GÇ£Our HeartsGÇ¥ In these words is a focus on grace as that which should characterize our faith. GÇ£GÇ¥Our hearts burn for salvation, redemption and grace.GÇ¥ Finally in these words is the final piece of the puzzle and directive from Arzad Hamri that the Starkmanir people were to be self-determined and not slaves. GÇ£May the Word of God grant you the courage to save yourself and your people.GÇ¥ It was this truth that threatened the Theology Council and the political powers that saw their own wealth and prestige at stake. Once the Starkmanir were thought slaughtered, the powers of wickedness thought the story over. Then, the Sisters discovered the Starkmanir in Ammatar.
What are the implications for Amarr?
1.The Amarr Empire has abdicated its right and role as a representative of the salvation of God among the people of New Eden. Arzad Hamri was moved by God over time to reject slavery as a tool to bring salvation, redemption, and grace to people. The empire killed him for this belief. Amarr is not called by God to enslave others in the name of God. 2. The sin of vitoxin will continue to bring GodGÇÖs judgment on us as a people until we repent of it and right that wrong. 3. The vision of Arzad Hamri is to bring the Amarr love of God to other people not as a replacement of their spirituality, but as something to share to make both better. Arzad Hamri and the Starkmanir people understood this and lived it. The Starkmanir of today are still living it, even though they are opposed sadly by both the Amarr and the Minmatar. 4. All slavery must end if the Amarr people are to recover their integrity as a people of God. I believe that the best way is for us to embrace our faith as followers of Arzad Hamri.
Personal implications
1. I have resigned my commission with the 24th Imperial Crusade. 2. Through the brave and selfless help of my uncle Theokrator, we have freed the 100 Cresthill Estate slaves, plus 20 additional slaves from another estate who are betrothed to 20 of the Cresthill Slaves. In addition I have freed my 41 personally held slaves. 3. I have embraced the fuller vision of Arzad Hamri that includes a belief in religious and personal liberty. I commit to respect those who believe in one God, many Gods/Spirits or no God. 4. I am returning the insignia dogtags that are in my possession and with the help of the Matari Military, I hope that they will be given to the surviving families of those I have killed.
Words of Appreciation:
Thank you to all who kept trying to chisel though my thick headedness.
Thank you, especially, Ms. Underking. Your words of cool and self-controlled reason were greatly influential in my decision to travel to X-7OMU on this quest.
Finally, thank you God for showing me my pride and presumption. Thank you for breaking my spirit that you might remake it.
I have no idea what to do now. My uncle Theokrator is dead at the hands of the Theology Council of Oris. My family has disowned me for betraying them. I hope they will one day understand but for now I have no home. I have alienated many people through my words of stupidity so carelessly spoken on this thread. I am a heretic, no doubt in the eyes of my own people. (continued below) "The fire in our hearts burns for salvation, redemption, and grace. May the Word of God grant you the courage to save yourself and your people" (The Last Words of Arzad Hamri) |
Theobar Cresthill
Viziam Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 14:59:00 -
[188] - Quote
Finally, a personal apology for my part in slavery: I held slaves. That was wrong. I am sorry. "The fire in our hearts burns for salvation, redemption, and grace. May the Word of God grant you the courage to save yourself and your people" (The Last Words of Arzad Hamri) |
Anabella Rella
Gradient Electus Matari
130
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 15:12:00 -
[189] - Quote
Theobar Cresthill wrote:Finally, a personal apology for my part in slavery: I held slaves. That was wrong. I am sorry.
It's laudable that you've finally acknowledged and apologized for your part in crimes against humanity but, do you have any plans, beyond publishing words on IGS, for how to make amends for this? What concrete steps are you planning to take to make whole those whom you harmed and to prevent such abuses in the future?
What you want is irrelevant, what you've chosen is at hand. |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
184
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 15:46:00 -
[190] - Quote
I believe I did say earlier that something like this had to happen if he wanted to remain logically consistant.
I approve of this choice, Mr. Cresthill. You have chosen a very difficult path. |
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
51
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 15:48:00 -
[191] - Quote
Theobar Cresthill wrote:Finally, a personal apology for my part in slavery: I held slaves. That was wrong. I am sorry. I hope those you wronged against will also hear your words.
If you need temporary shelter across the border, there are many Matari organizations that hire defectors. It is not an easy path by any means, but it is doable.
Elsebeth |
Khazarn Areth
The Black Pigs The Black Pigs Alliance
95
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 16:03:00 -
[192] - Quote
Well, isn't this a turnaround.
You should prepare yourself for reprisal as the theology council do not take kindly to criticisms or apparent loyalists speaking out.
Bloody Omir's coming back Monsters from the endless black Wading through a crimson flood Omir's come to drink your blood |
Silas Vitalia
Nobilta Nera
194
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 16:37:00 -
[193] - Quote
Theobar Cresthill wrote:Finally, a personal apology for my part in slavery: I held slaves. That was wrong. I am sorry.
Good grief. That drastic change of attitude took all of what, two weeks? I see my charges of you being a "diet-Quafe" Amarrian were 100% accurate.
You weak, weak little man.
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Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
103
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 16:39:00 -
[194] - Quote
Silas Vitalia wrote:Good grief. That drastic change of attitude took all of what, two weeks? I see my charges of you being a "diet-Quafe" Amarrian were 100% accurate.
You weak, weak little man.
If seriously entertaining the possibility that you may be wrong is "weak", then weakness is truly a virtue.
An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Kikia Truzhari
Teraa Matar
14
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 16:44:00 -
[195] - Quote
No, no, see, for amarrians, your strength is determined by how much you can ignore the injustices of your government. But Theobar, good work. This must have taken some courage and I applaud it. |
Silas Vitalia
Nobilta Nera
194
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 16:48:00 -
[196] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:Silas Vitalia wrote:Good grief. That drastic change of attitude took all of what, two weeks? I see my charges of you being a "diet-Quafe" Amarrian were 100% accurate.
You weak, weak little man. If seriously entertaining the possibility that you may be wrong is "weak", then weakness is truly a virtue.
People change their minds all the time, convictions change over time.
I'm pointing out the utter ridiculousness of a recent graduate fresh out of Academy trumpeting his faith for the GLORY OF GOD for all enemies to hear, and then having a crisis of faith a few weeks into his capsuleer career the first time he runs into any opposing points of view from people he has lived his entire life feeling superior to.
Tune in next week when he hears all about the Federation and decides Democracy is the true path!
Tune in next month when he hears about the State, and how -that's- the way to go.
Pathetic.
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Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
762
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 17:00:00 -
[197] - Quote
I am disappointed by this turn of events, but not particularly surprised.
You should take care not to further damn yourself by your words or your actions, Cresthill. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Khazarn Areth
The Black Pigs The Black Pigs Alliance
95
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 17:03:00 -
[198] - Quote
There is no virtue in weakness, only the strong survive as is the way of things.
Bloody Omir's coming back Monsters from the endless black Wading through a crimson flood Omir's come to drink your blood |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
72
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 17:12:00 -
[199] - Quote
Seems I have to find a new playtoy.
Ah well, enough people still hiding. And nothing as much fun as peaking holes into a cover. I think I will go for a zealot from the opposite side of the fence this time.
We do need balance.
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Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
103
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 17:13:00 -
[200] - Quote
Khazarn Areth wrote:There is no virtue in weakness, only the strong survive as is the way of things.
In the great arms race of moral philosophy, that one is the equivalent of a flint hand axe: Blunt, crude and primitive. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Scherezad
Hobgoblin Marketeers
4
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Posted - 2012.03.15 01:52:00 -
[201] - Quote
Theobar Cresthill wrote:"The fire in our hearts burns for salvation, redemption, and grace. May the Word of God grant you the courage to save yourself and your people" (The Last Words of Arzad Hamri)
It took great courage to do what you've done. Not only that, but the ability to unseat ones' cherished beliefs in the face of evidence takes a master of rationality. Don't let accusations of being flippant turn your mind. It takes the greater person to admit that they're wrong and then take action to right it.
Well done, Captain Cresthill. If you ever find yourself in Caldari space, you have a friend there. Congratulations and best of luck; and do let us know how your journey progresses. |
Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
12
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 13:21:00 -
[202] - Quote
Good.
As another on the IGS recently remarked, a true patriot must be able to see the flaws of his homeland and accept them. To refuse to do so is the path to mindless zealotry.
Much like facing oneself, facing one's home with eyes uncovered can be a cruel experience. Regardless of my own loyalty to Empire and Kingdom, I would rather you know what you speak of than that you espouse thoughtless rhetoric, Mr Cresthill.
That it broke you is unfortunate, and I am sorry for your losses, but I commend you on your strength of will to act on your new convictions. The Empire will never prosper as long as it is only guarded by the blind. |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
104
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 14:12:00 -
[203] - Quote
Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:Good.
As another on the IGS recently remarked, a true patriot must be able to see the flaws of his homeland and accept them. To refuse to do so is the path to mindless zealotry.
See the flaws of his homeland and correct them. Which is unlikely to be an easy process, of course. But it has to start with a few people who are willing to stop and challenge common wisdom, to oppose it where it is wrong, and break it where it is immoral.
And you have to tread very carefully indeed if you don't want to become a pariah An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
12
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Posted - 2012.03.15 14:38:00 -
[204] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:See the flaws of his homeland and correct them.
I mispoke; accept their existance, rather than deny them. That it is then our duty to combat those flaws should go without saying. Apathy is the greatest sin of all. |
Theobar Cresthill
Viziam Amarr Empire
15
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Posted - 2012.03.15 15:02:00 -
[205] - Quote
Stitcher wrote: See the flaws of his homeland and correct them. Which is unlikely to be an easy process, of course. But it has to start with a few people who are willing to stop and challenge common wisdom, to oppose it where it is wrong, and break it where it is immoral.
Dear Dr. Hakatain, Your words are wise. But how do we do it? This is what troubles my mind. Perhaps part of the solution is to embrace the grief of a lost past that could have been better rather than denying it. Let me explain...
Imagine: ...if Arzad Hamri had lived and the unity of the Amarr and the Starkmanir had reached its intended apex? ...if that transformed society had been allowed to exist as a model? ...if Amarr society would have re-modeled itself after that vision of freedom and mutual respect? ...if the current government had the courage to admit the wrong of the present and the past and re-pattern the future?
It begins with risk and with humility. Arzad Hamri is an example that Amarrian leaders can be humble. "The fire in our hearts burns for salvation, redemption, and grace. May the Word of God grant you the courage to save yourself and your people" (The Last Words of Arzad Hamri) |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
104
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 15:26:00 -
[206] - Quote
If the Amarrian dependence on slavery were a simple problem to solve, it would have been abolished centuries ago.
Unfortunately, it's a culture couched in opaque tradition. The halls of power are open to only the tiniest minority, and the process of acquiring that access selects against those with views deemed "unsavory" by the existing authority... or at least selects against those who have openly expressed them.
The Minmatar didn't do it with seven hundred years of freedom fighting. Arzad Hamri didn't achieve it with his humility. Empress Jamyl didn't do it with her decree of emancipation.
I once saw an asteroid the size of a small moon, out in W-space. We tried to estimate how long it would take to deplete using a single civilian mining laser. Our conclusion was that you'd have to be as patient as Deteaas to do it.
The same principle applies to the Empire. The telling blows against the Reclaiming don't come from warships and bloodshed0 There's no amount of firepower in the world that'll break its armoured hide - quite the reverse, they will thrive on the blood of martyrs. Instead, we have to win the argument, change hearts and minds. Each such victory is another load of ore in the hold, but we've got a long op ahead of us. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
763
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 15:48:00 -
[207] - Quote
Theobar Cresthill wrote:
Imagine:..
...if Amarr society would have re-modeled itself after that vision of freedom and mutual respect?
You're forgetting that Amarrian society is already a vision of freedom and mutual respect between Amarrians and members of former slave races such as the Udorians and the Ni-Kunni.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Silas Vitalia
Nobilta Nera
195
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 16:16:00 -
[208] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:If the Amarrian dependence on slavery were a simple problem to solve, it would have been abolished centuries ago.
Unfortunately, it's a culture couched in opaque tradition. The halls of power are open to only the tiniest minority, and the process of acquiring that access selects against those with views deemed "unsavory" by the existing authority... or at least selects against those who have openly expressed them.
The Minmatar didn't do it with seven hundred years of freedom fighting. Arzad Hamri didn't achieve it with his humility. Empress Jamyl didn't do it with her decree of emancipation.
I once saw an asteroid the size of a small moon, out in W-space. We tried to estimate how long it would take to deplete using a single civilian mining laser. Our conclusion was that you'd have to be as patient as Deteaas to do it.
The same principle applies to the Empire. The telling blows against the Reclaiming don't come from warships and bloodshed. There's no amount of firepower in the world that'll break its armoured hide - quite the reverse, they will thrive on the blood of martyrs. Instead, we have to win the argument, change hearts and minds. Each such victory is another load of ore in the hold, but we've got a long op ahead of us.
One has only to look at the recent crops of Amarrian capsuleer "graduates" to see your metaphorical asteroid is already quite hollow and brittle; weakened from the inside by the twin failures of liberalism and emancipation.
I've been saying this for years, however. |
Astrid Stjerna
Teraa Matar
623
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 17:27:00 -
[209] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote: You're forgetting that Amarrian society is already a vision of freedom and mutual respect between Amarrians and members of former slave races such as the Udorians and the Ni-Kunni.
And you're conveniently ignoring that those former slave races, in at least the case of the Ni-Kunni, were closely associated with the Empire to begin with. Monoclegate: because calling it 'Doorgate' would just be silly. |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
184
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 19:04:00 -
[210] - Quote
Astrid Stjerna wrote:Rodj Blake wrote: You're forgetting that Amarrian society is already a vision of freedom and mutual respect between Amarrians and members of former slave races such as the Udorians and the Ni-Kunni.
And you're conveniently ignoring that those former slave races, in at least the case of the Ni-Kunni, were closely associated with the Empire to begin with.
Not that I want to defend the Empire here, but this is a factual error. They were only closely affiliated with the Empire in as much as they shared a planet prior to any of them having space travel. They are closely affiliated now because slavery adapted their culture's to fit the Empire after the fact. |
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