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Kylana Darkfate Republic University	Posted - 2008.03.25 20:06:00 - [1] Either nerf nanos or unnerf Warp Core Stabs. Since Nanos can pretty much disengage and warp off if things get iffy, maybe shield/armor tanks should be able to do the same thing...again. Seems to be fair if you ask me. By the way when did CCP nerf WCS again? Was is the Bloodline patch where they introduced the Asians to the races, or the one where they introduced the new model BC and BS? Or was that the same patch? I can't remember it was long ago.
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.25 20:19:00 - [2] Originally by: Kylana Darkfate By the way when did CCP nerf WCS again? Was is the Bloodline patch where they introduced the Asians to the races, or the one where they introduced the new model BC and BS? Or was that the same patch? I can't remember it was long ago. As far as I know, it's only been done once and that was in Revelations 1 towards the end of 2006 (right before I started playing Eve, actually). And please stop whining about speed. Speed is like EWar, it's either or. When it works it works spectacularly, and when it fails it fails spectacularly. Stop asking to kill every single working tactic aside from brute force gank-tank slugging matches.
Corwain DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2008.03.25 20:20:00 - [3] you can't nano a 1200dps mega, but you can put a wcs on it. Your logic fails. --
0raven0 Point-Zero SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.25 20:31:00 - [4] Edited by: 0raven0 on 25/03/2008 20:32:42 To kill a ship you normally need 2 things a warp disruptor and DPS. With nano ships you need 2 warp disruptors, one of which is a web. If you don't have both then they will just warp off. This is just like before WCS was nerfed, you need multiple warp disruptors to get kills, the difference now is that your second warp disruptor against nanos only has a 10km-13km range :( Btw, I am training for a nanoship now because I know how they are better than rep tanked ships. My nano ship will be built with the sole idea of catching and killing other nanoships. ------ Quote: tuxford: AT LEAST ITS SPEELED CORRECTLY tuxford: spelled* Oveur: rofl
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.25 20:46:00 - [5] Train to overload webs. Make friends with Minmatar recon pilots. Stop flying alone.
Ulstan Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.25 20:48:00 - [6] They're definitely the new WCS. Lets you pick and choose fights at will with no real penalty. The old WCS wouldn't even be as bad now with HICtors. They counter WCS the same way Huginn's counter nanos.
ghost st The Scope	Posted - 2008.03.25 20:48:00 - [7] I dont think that nanoes should be nerfed outright, the ability to nano has always existed but it hasnt became popular until recently. The more common carrier hotdrops and blobs become, the more nano ships there have been. I would like to make it so nanos arent needed to run away from blobs and capital hotdrops, i would love to roam in the geddon again wihtout the fear of every noobship, shuttle, and pod having a cyno fitted, or a blob ready to login on top of me
Christari Zuborov Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.03.25 20:50:00 - [8] Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 25/03/2008 20:51:07 Originally by: Corwain you can't nano a 1200dps mega, but you can put a wcs on it. Your logic fails. You can't nano a 1200dps mega, but you can't nano a 700dps Zealot either. You trade damage and tank for speed, so you could nano a mega, doing around 400 dps, and going 350-400m/s, but why? The ONLY reason I can see getting rid of nano, is if we got rid of MWDs also and went back to manuever warfare - but understand this, that means either having warp-in points or braving 200km of fire moving @ ~200-500m/s to get to that sniping BS.
L70Rogue State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.25 21:00:00 - [9] Hopefully Zulupark is paying close attention to these threads because everyone knows that speed is overpowered and the new WCS especially nano'd Heavy Assault Ships. Can't wait until the nerf bat hits speed on it's head hard. The tears of****abond pilots everywhere will taste so sweet.
cRazYf1St CrAzyF1sTs	Posted - 2008.03.25 21:11:00 - [10] lately since nano's are seen more often it's not quite as much a stab since you may be tackled by the other nanoer's. .
L70Rogue State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.25 21:18:00 - [11] Originally by: cRazYf1St lately since nano's are seen more often it's not quite as much a stab since you may be tackled by the other nanoer's. so people have to nano to kill nano? now that's what's called a major imbalance.
Corwain DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2008.03.25 21:19:00 - [12] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 25/03/2008 20:51:07 Originally by: Corwain you can't nano a 1200dps mega, but you can put a wcs on it. Your logic fails. You can't nano a 1200dps mega, but you can't nano a 700dps Zealot either. You trade damage and tank for speed, so you could nano a mega, doing around 400 dps, and going 350-400m/s, but why? The ONLY reason I can see getting rid of nano, is if we got rid of MWDs also and went back to manuever warfare - but understand this, that means either having warp-in points or braving 200km of fire moving @ ~200-500m/s to get to that sniping BS. Er, I think you missed my point. You just expounded on what I was saying, you didn't rebut it. Nanoships do crap-all damage, whereas back in the day fitting a few WCS didn't do jack to your damage. --
Zara Torbe Invicta.	Posted - 2008.03.25 21:33:00 - [13] Vagabonds are not overpowered. Nanoships die hard and fast.
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.25 21:35:00 - [14] Originally by: L70Rogue Originally by: cRazYf1St lately since nano's are seen more often it's not quite as much a stab since you may be tackled by the other nanoer's. so people have to nano to kill nano? now that's what's called a major imbalance. No, you don't have to go fast to catch ships that are fast (wow, there's a concept... ), but it is one of the ways you can do it.
Madla Mafia The Dead Man's Hand	Posted - 2008.03.25 21:37:00 - [15] Nano's are fine. Worry about something else, like the Pilgrim! ------------------------------------------ Amarr - getting screwed since 2005.
Dianeces Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.03.25 21:40:00 - [16] Originally by: L70Rogue Originally by: cRazYf1St lately since nano's are seen more often it's not quite as much a stab since you may be tackled by the other nanoer's. so people have to nano to kill nano? now that's what's called a major imbalance. So what would that make what's going on in your head?
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.25 21:40:00 - [17] Eve is a game of rock, paper, scissors. If you fly a competent nangang then you deny your opponent the scissors. So your opponent can only ever use rock and paper. This means that if you fly a nanogang, you just need to pick paper forever and you will win if the conventional gang picks rock or draw if they pick paper. -- Billion Isk Mission
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.25 21:42:00 - [18] Originally by: Lord WarATron If you fly a competent gang then you deny your opponent the scissors. Fixed.
Corwain DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2008.03.25 21:43:00 - [19] Originally by: Lord WarATron So your opponent can only ever use rock and paper. This means that if you fly a nanogang, you just need to pick paper forever and you will win if the conventional gang picks rock or draw if they pick paper. Yes, but that does not make nanos like WCS at all except for the fact that they both allow you to more easily escape bad situations. --
Skjorta Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.25 21:44:00 - [20] sweet jesus another nano whine thread. You're so right, all ships should be amazing at everything in the game. So why can't nano's tank as much dps as shield/armor tankers? Or put out as much dps for that matter. That just seems unfair, doesn't it? Not to mention the large amounts of isk it takes to properly nano a ship compared to shield/armor tank it.
Ryas Nia Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.03.25 21:44:00 - [21] Your problem is not with nanos being a "win" button but the fact that a nano fit lets them run, there for you dont like a "never lose" button. Im sorry but there is nothing wrong with fast ships, if it cant win, and most of the time it cant because to nano you have to remove most if not all damage mods, then it flees, and you have won the fight. I dont see the issue. Done expect me to willingly die just because i cant win, thats not combat. You remove nano's and you remove the ability of ships to retreat.
Cybele Lanier The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.03.25 21:56:00 - [22] Originally by: Ryas Nia Your problem is not with nanos being a "win" button but the fact that a nano fit lets them run, there for you dont like a "never lose" button. Im sorry but there is nothing wrong with fast ships, if it cant win, and most of the time it cant because to nano you have to remove most if not all damage mods, then it flees, and you have won the fight. I dont see the issue. Done expect me to willingly die just because i cant win, thats not combat. You remove nano's and you remove the ability of ships to retreat. You know, this post reads almost exactly the same if you replace every mention of "nano" or "fast ships" with "warp core stabiliser". --------------- ""Minimum collateral damage" and "Entire star system" do not belong in the same sentence."
Crackzilla The Shadow Order SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.25 21:57:00 - [23] Originally by: Ryas Nia You remove nano's and you remove the ability of ships to retreat. Most of the proposed solutions revolve not around removing nanos, but simplifying the counter to nanos. A disciplined nano gang could still tear into an undisciplined non nano gang. Hopefully a well coordinated non nano gang could go after the nano gang. Nanos would have more of a skirmish role versus featherweight boxer.
Hortoken Wolfbrother Free Lapland The Kadeshi	Posted - 2008.03.25 22:05:00 - [24] Nano gangs atm lose to lots of setups. They arent hard to counter. What they ARE hard to do is kill. Its a trade off. Nice survivability in exchange for being in setups which are relatively speaking generally inferior. A lot of these people who are so terribly afraid of nano gangs probably havent ever flown nanos. A good working knowledge of what about nano setups is vulnerable and how to exploit this can make killing nano ships as easy as any other ship out there. I for one dont want to see the nanos go away. Maybe there is some measure of compromise needed on SOME certain ships that arent inteded to be nanomachines, but im in general very content with how the game works atm with speed.
Atius Tirawa Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.25 22:06:00 - [25] Nanos will be nurfed, its not that ships go fast thats the problem, its that they go too fast. In my opinion, nothing should outrun a missle - once that becomes possible in anything larger then an inti - something is wrong. Mind you, I nano - but its more a nessesity then a love for going fast. The slow more oftan then not end up dead these days. Of course, blob warfare is not fun either. . .so its a real perdicament. But the dev blogs are clear that nanos are gonna get hit hard. -----------
Dianeces Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.03.25 22:09:00 - [26] Originally by: Atius Tirawa In my opinion, nothing should outrun a missle - once that becomes possible in anything larger then an inti - something is wrong. Will we be removing tracking for everything save Inties now, too? I, for one, welcome the new age of battleships BBQing everything.
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.25 22:21:00 - [27] Originally by: ***zilla Originally by:** Ryas Nia You remove nano's and you remove the ability of ships to retreat. Most of the proposed solutions revolve not around removing nanos, but simplifying the counter to nanos. Pretty much every single one I've heard proposed on here would either completely obsolote the use of speed at all or, at least, the use of speed within the engagement range of Vagabonds/Stabbers, interdictors and interceptors (the ships that are actually indisputably supposed to be really fast).
Hortoken Wolfbrother Free Lapland The Kadeshi	Posted - 2008.03.25 22:26:00 - [28] Originally by: Dianeces Originally by: Atius Tirawa In my opinion, nothing should outrun a missle - once that becomes possible in anything larger then an inti - something is wrong. Will we be removing tracking for everything save Inties now, too? I, for one, welcome the new age of battleships BBQing everything. With mine Tachyons...
Agor Dirdonen Nuclear Industries	Posted - 2008.03.25 22:29:00 - [29] Originally by: L70Rogue Originally by: cRazYf1St lately since nano's are seen more often it's not quite as much a stab since you may be tackled by the other nanoer's. so people have to nano to kill nano? now that's what's called a major imbalance. How do you kill a heavily tanked ship with lots of DPS 1v1? Right, with another heavily tanked ship with lots of DPS. A nano only dents your armor.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.03.25 23:02:00 - [30] Either nerf shooting missiles at range or unnerf Warp Core Stabs. Since shooting missiles at range can pretty much disengage and warp off if things get iffy, maybe shield/armor tanks should be able to do the same thing...again. Seems to be fair if you ask me.
0raven0 Point-Zero SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.26 14:16:00 - [31] Originally by: Agor Dirdonen Originally by: L70Rogue Originally by: cRazYf1St lately since nano's are seen more often it's not quite as much a stab since you may be tackled by the other nanoer's. so people have to nano to kill nano? now that's what's called a major imbalance. How do you kill a heavily tanked ship with lots of DPS 1v1? Right, with another heavily tanked ship with lots of DPS. A nano only dents your armor. All heavily tanked battleships today use cap charges to keep their tank going. so yeah at first the nano ship won't do much but eventually the BS will run out of cap charges and die. ------ Quote: tuxford: AT LEAST ITS SPEELED CORRECTLY tuxford: spelled* Oveur: rofl
Xaen Caritas.	Posted - 2008.03.26 14:25:00 - [32] Threads with sensationalist rhetorical questions the quickest route to fail? - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Mardig Caress of Steel	Posted - 2008.03.26 14:40:00 - [33] Originally by: Xaen Threads with sensationalist rhetorical questions the quickest route to fail? As opposed to your rhetorical post which fails? I agree with the poster who said nothing should be able to outrun a missile. A torpedo? Sure. Outrunning a missile is just silly.
Rick Thwaites Caritas.	Posted - 2008.03.26 14:47:00 - [34] Originally by: Mardig Originally by: Xaen Threads with sensationalist rhetorical questions the quickest route to fail? I agree with the poster who said nothing should be able to outrun a missile. A torpedo? Sure. Outrunning a missile is just silly. As a Caldari who uses missiles almost exclusively, I disagree. Our missiles do not go faster than light, nor the speed of light, so it follows logically that some things are able to outrun them. If you are worried about someone outrunning your missile, train up the skills to 5. Very few things that aren't interceptors flying in a straight line can outrun my cruise missiles - they may not do a lot of damage because they are outrunning my explosion velocity - but I can still hit them. --
Xaen Caritas.	Posted - 2008.03.26 14:55:00 - [35] Originally by: Mardig Originally by: Xaen Threads with sensationalist rhetorical questions the quickest route to fail? As opposed to your rhetorical post which fails? I agree with the poster who said nothing should be able to outrun a missile. A torpedo? Sure. Outrunning a missile is just silly. That sound you hear is irony flying over your head. On an unrelated note, Hai Rick! - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Zarnak Wulf The Merchant Marines Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.03.26 14:57:00 - [36] The nano issue is part of the larger picture of game mechanics. As it stands now if you start a raid into an opponent's territory your position is usually given away 5-10 jumps out by local. A response that sometimes includes hot-dropping capitals is prepared. When your small gang meets this response it will die if it's not comprised of nano ships. The problem is if you nerf nano ships and let the other game mechanics stand as-is, you will only have blob warfare. The live dev-blog was interesting in that they talked SO much about changing scanning/ the nature of local. The speed issue was addressed only by one question after the main blog. I would almost bet money that you will see: a) A major change in local/ scanning game mechanics. and THEN b) nano nerf.
Zephyr Rengate Prophets Of a Damned Universe	Posted - 2008.03.26 15:04:00 - [37] Nano is so easy to beat though. Any decent gang will have no issues against a nano gang.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge XIII Legio	Posted - 2008.03.26 15:36:00 - [38] ECM - Heavy Neuts - a sniper gang picking off nanos - your own nanos/minnie recons, all overcome nanogangs. Leave it be - it ads tactical flexibility. Without it you will have boring slugfests of dps+tank blobs - yawn... Sure they can escape - but they can't do much damage either - seems balanced to me. If you spent as much as the nano guy on your own missile skills and rigs and implants - you too can deal with any practical combat speed. I think blobs are a bigger problem than nanos - and your suggestions to weaken nano's would make the blobs even more prevalent... __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
stahmul North Face Force	Posted - 2008.03.26 15:44:00 - [39] Originally by: L70Rogue Hopefully Zulupark is paying close attention to these threads because everyone knows that speed is overpowered and the new WCS especially nano'd Heavy Assault Ships. Can't wait until the nerf bat hits speed on it's head hard. The tears of**abond pilots everywhere will taste so sweet. I believe Zulupark has already reached his quota this year for **ing off the EVE playerbase. Notice how he hasn't done much lately?
Agor Dirdonen	Posted - 2008.04.13 10:08:00 - [40] Edited by: Agor Dirdonen on 13/04/2008 10:11:28 Originally by: stahmul I believe Zulupark has already reached his quota this year for ****ing off the EVE playerbase. Notice how he hasn't done much lately? Oh, you think he's not doing anything anymore now? He's just not asking for feedback from the playerbase thanks to all the flaming he got. They'll discuss it internally, when they think it's better for the game they'll introduce it and simply mention it in the patchnotes without asking feedback from the playerbase. If there's one thing the devs learned from the flaming Zulupark got is that the playerbase isn't worth anymore to ask for feedback. At least that part of the playerbase that simply spits their anger when they can't deal with a chance in the game. As that part is the most vocal part on the forums, they've stopped asking for feedback. Or do you see the other devs happily blogging till they can't type anymore? Edit: to back up my story: Linkage Pay attention to the last line of CCP Prism X's post.
Agor Dirdonen	Posted - 2008.04.13 10:17:00 - [41] Originally by: L70Rogue Hopefully Zulupark is paying close attention to these threads because everyone knows that speed is overpowered and the new WCS especially nano'd Heavy Assault Ships. Can't wait until the nerf bat hits speed on it's head hard. The tears of**abond pilots everywhere will taste so sweet. I'm really afraid you're not gonna get the expected results IF or WHEN nano is going to be nerfed. May I refer you to the ECM nerf? ECM got nerfed BUT the ECM specialized ships got a huge bonus to counter the nerf. There are other examples where nerfing was done in general except for those ships that were designed to use those features. So, when it comes down to nerfing nano's, may I refer you to the vagabond's description? "The fastest cruiser invented to date**, this vessel is ideal for hit-and-run ops where both speed and firepower are required. Its on-board power core may not be strong enough to handle some of the larger weapons out there, but when it comes to guerilla work, the Vagabond can't be beat." It's intended feature is SPEED. Now, suppose nano's are being nerfed, the vagabond will get an extra bonus reducing the effect of the nerf for that specific ship. The ones that will be hit hard are not going to be Minmatar ships but all others that can be fitted now to go fast as well, like Ishtars. Note: I don't fly vaga's btw.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.13 10:24:00 - [42] If nanos are so leet then why TRI lose ships? Yes i know i spelled COAD wrong. Stop mailing me about it I refuse to read SHC
Zephyr Rengate Prophets Of a Damned Universe	Posted - 2008.04.13 10:25:00 - [43] Necro thread tbh.
DanMck Amarr Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.13 10:37:00 - [44] so what is the alternative ? we have rr gangs all the time (everyone loved that in the tourny) everyone replaces nano with damage mods ? 5 shield extender drakes ? no nano on an inite or eaf ? what is it supposed to fit ? a tank fighting with speed on your side means you can fight outnumbered if this is removed then there will be less pvp not more. the vaga is not overpowered and fitting your ship like a vaga pilot fits his is not making it overpowered either. if this change comes into effect it will totally change pvp in eve and that is the last thing we need.
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.04.13 10:40:00 - [45] Generic nano-whine 3568834 fails as much as the previous attempts. Adapt or die. Black Hand.
Daniel Borealis Minmatar Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.13 10:42:00 - [46] The tools to counter nano are there, they can and are used effectively... except by the people like the op. Evertime I see "wcs = nano" I feel a deep urge to shake someone violently until they come to their senses... Any properly fit gang.. or even individual.. can fend off a nano ship. It's not even hard.. or complicated for pete's sake. The people who whine about nano just can't bother to put on a heavy neut or webber drones or ecm or use a min recon or get a bunch of inties or heaven forbid fly nano or etc or etc........ sigh
Kay Han Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.04.13 11:08:00 - [47] There is absolutly no ***** problem with Nanos. The only problem are the peeps who dont have the correct counters to nanos. You want to catch a vaga? Get a hugging, overload your webs, get Hvy neuts, get sensor damps and t2 missiles, get a buddy to help you... start thinking about how to catch a fast ship instead of running to the forums and cry like baby jesus everytime you lost a ship to a vaga... Originally by:** CCP Atropos Personally I think Amarr ships should consume slaves in a similar way that other ships consume ammunition.
Ralara Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.13 11:22:00 - [48] Originally by: 0raven0 Originally by: Agor Dirdonen Originally by: L70Rogue Originally by: cRazYf1St lately since nano's are seen more often it's not quite as much a stab since you may be tackled by the other nanoer's. so people have to nano to kill nano? now that's what's called a major imbalance. How do you kill a heavily tanked ship with lots of DPS 1v1? Right, with another heavily tanked ship with lots of DPS. A nano only dents your armor. All heavily tanked battleships today use cap charges to keep their tank going. so yeah at first the nano ship won't do much but eventually the BS will run out of cap charges and die. Well how? Where will you be where this can happen? At a star gate? The bs just heads back towards the gate. At a station? The bs just docks At an asteroid belt? The bs just heads towards the asteroids to force the nano to move off or risk being bumped. OMFG BUT WHAT IF THE BS IS WEBBED???? I dunno, web back and kill it? -- Ralara / Ralarina
Kolatha	Posted - 2008.04.13 11:24:00 - [49] I just lost a ship to a nano gang. That said, I gotta agree with those saying that nanos are not the problem, I lost my ship to carelessness more than the skill of the nano gang. As it stands, the best way to deal with nano gangs is to just get organised with a fast heavy hitting sniper gang. If you can't get organised then simply bore the nano gang, deny them targets. While there are counters to the nano gang there are still some minor issues. I think a small buff to tracking comps and a slight speed boost to web drones wouldn't go astray. I also feel that CCP needs to take another look at the warp core stabiliser now that heavy dictors are in the game. Going back to the way they were is not really a good idea, they do need some sort of penalty. I'd like to see the WCS as an activateable module with a high cap cost, but that's just my opinion.
Bazman Caldari Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.13 11:28:00 - [50] I hate nanosetups as much as the next person, but tbh, there are lots of counters you can use and they take a little bit of luck to work. Anyway: Curse, Huginn, Rapier, anything that fires missles. Heavy Neutralisers on a battleship. ECM, Damps. My personal favourite counter is a speed fitted ishtar with a couple of medium neuts. Keeps up with the typical vagabond and can neut it silly. In two days, I'll be flying a nanocurse. Even more nano ships shall diiiiiie -----
techzer0 IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.04.13 11:29:00 - [51] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Mardig Originally by: Xaen Threads with sensationalist rhetorical questions the quickest route to fail? As opposed to your rhetorical post which fails? I agree with the poster who said nothing should be able to outrun a missile. A torpedo? Sure. Outrunning a missile is just silly. That sound you hear is irony flying over your head. On an unrelated note, Hai Rick! This guy had it right... oh and 2 1/2 - 3 week old necro ------------ Originally by: CCP Mitnal It's great being a puppetmaster
Buyerr	Posted - 2008.04.13 11:49:00 - [52] Originally by: Corwain you can't nano a 1200dps mega, but you can put a wcs on it. Your logic fails. you can't lock down a nona with 2-4-8-16 disruptors/scramblers, but you can most CERTAINLY lock down that megathorn. so his logic holds quite well I declare war on stupidity
Buyerr	Posted - 2008.04.13 11:54:00 - [53] Originally by: Rick Thwaites Originally by: Mardig Originally by: Xaen Threads with sensationalist rhetorical questions the quickest route to fail? I agree with the poster who said nothing should be able to outrun a missile. A torpedo? Sure. Outrunning a missile is just silly. As a Caldari who uses missiles almost exclusively, I disagree. Our missiles do not go faster than light, nor the speed of light, so it follows logically that some things are able to outrun them. If you are worried about someone outrunning your missile, train up the skills to 5. Very few things that aren't interceptors flying in a straight line can outrun my cruise missiles - they may not do a lot of damage because they are outrunning my explosion velocity - but I can still hit them. okey so what ship and setup in eve goes anywhere NEAR 299.792.458 m/s (which is the speed of light) .... it seems that you don't even know the speed of light dude.. keep to what you know off.. i got maxed missiles skills and the top implants for missiles and still the cruise missiles are outrunend by real nano ships, it is just silly and stupid.. I declare war on stupidity
Buyerr	Posted - 2008.04.13 11:58:00 - [54] Originally by: Agor Dirdonen Originally by: L70Rogue Hopefully Zulupark is paying close attention to these threads because everyone knows that speed is overpowered and the new WCS especially nano'd Heavy Assault Ships. Can't wait until the nerf bat hits speed on it's head hard. The tears of**abond pilots everywhere will taste so sweet. I'm really afraid you're not gonna get the expected results IF or WHEN nano is going to be nerfed. May I refer you to the ECM nerf? ECM got nerfed BUT the ECM specialized ships got a huge bonus to counter the nerf. There are other examples where nerfing was done in general except for those ships that were designed to use those features. So, when it comes down to nerfing nano's, may I refer you to the vagabond's description? "The fastest cruiser invented to date**, this vessel is ideal for hit-and-run ops where both speed and firepower are required. Its on-board power core may not be strong enough to handle some of the larger weapons out there, but when it comes to guerilla work, the Vagabond can't be beat." It's intended feature is SPEED. Now, suppose nano's are being nerfed, the vagabond will get an extra bonus reducing the effect of the nerf for that specific ship. The ones that will be hit hard are not going to be Minmatar ships but all others that can be fitted now to go fast as well, like Ishtars. Note: I don't fly vaga's btw. problem have never been ships that are designed to go at extreme speeds like interceptors, it comes when something like hacs that was never meant to go over 3k goes 6k no prob I declare war on stupidity
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2008.04.13 12:06:00 - [55] Originally by: DanMck so what is the alternative ? we have rr gangs all the time (everyone loved that in the tourny) everyone replaces nano with damage mods ? 5 shield extender drakes ? no nano on an inite or eaf ? what is it supposed to fit ? a tank fighting with speed on your side means you can fight outnumbered if this is removed then there will be less pvp not more. the vaga is not overpowered and fitting your ship like a vaga pilot fits his is not making it overpowered either. if this change comes into effect it will totally change pvp in eve and that is the last thing we need. Maybe you should stop making assumptions and jumping to ridiculous conclusions like every other idiot in this thread. They aren't going to remove speed mods from the game. The vagabond is still going to be the fastest HAC by virtue of it's base attributes. Speed tanking just needs to be more like... tanking. Currently it's more like "you can't touch me until I decide to slow down lalalalala". On ships that aren't meant to be touched, like interceptors, it's fine though. Why? Because inties don't have tanking bonuses, or increased resists like other T2 ships. It's pretty obvious that ships were never meant to go that fast while still being able to sustain damage when they slow down. The Vagabond is an exception to this (along with a few other ships), and that's not going to change because no matter what they do it's still going to be comparatively faster than all other ships of it's class. I mean, was the Vagabond garbage before polycarb rigs? I didn't think so! Maybe after they nerf speed on big ships, they'll unnerf AFs and get people back in small ships who want to go fast. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Shananigan	Posted - 2008.04.13 12:20:00 - [56] Originally by: Agor Dirdonen Originally by: L70Rogue Hopefully Zulupark is paying close attention to these threads because everyone knows that speed is overpowered and the new WCS especially nano'd Heavy Assault Ships. Can't wait until the nerf bat hits speed on it's head hard. The tears of**abond pilots everywhere will taste so sweet. I'm really afraid you're not gonna get the expected results IF or WHEN nano is going to be nerfed. May I refer you to the ECM nerf? ECM got nerfed BUT the ECM specialized ships got a huge bonus to counter the nerf. There are other examples where nerfing was done in general except for those ships that were designed to use those features. So, when it comes down to nerfing nano's, may I refer you to the vagabond's description? "The fastest cruiser invented to date**, this vessel is ideal for hit-and-run ops where both speed and firepower are required. Its on-board power core may not be strong enough to handle some of the larger weapons out there, but when it comes to guerilla work, the Vagabond can't be beat." It's intended feature is SPEED. Now, suppose nano's are being nerfed, the vagabond will get an extra bonus reducing the effect of the nerf for that specific ship. The ones that will be hit hard are not going to be Minmatar ships but all others that can be fitted now to go fast as well, like Ishtars. Note: I don't fly vaga's btw. I think this is something no one has yet to realize, some ships are made for speed and if a nerf does happen it wont actually effect those ships, so people will just train up on that race and 30 days after the nerf, oh you have nanos again. Heres the kicker though, now all the ships that could be nano that got nerfed will no longer be able to counter the ones that didnt, THEN there will be a nano problem. As it is there is plenty of ways to counter nano, people would just rather whine on the forums repeatidly instead of actually checking up on how to counter them. do your research people, I did and I have no real problems with nanos, they usually just run away because I can tank the crap out of there small pew pew and as someone already said if they run it mean YOU won not them, duh...
DanMck Amarr Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.13 12:23:00 - [57] Originally by: Wet Ferret Originally by: DanMck so what is the alternative ? we have rr gangs all the time (everyone loved that in the tourny) everyone replaces nano with damage mods ? 5 shield extender drakes ? no nano on an inite or eaf ? what is it supposed to fit ? a tank fighting with speed on your side means you can fight outnumbered if this is removed then there will be less pvp not more. the vaga is not overpowered and fitting your ship like a vaga pilot fits his is not making it overpowered either. if this change comes into effect it will totally change pvp in eve and that is the last thing we need. Maybe you should stop making assumptions and jumping to ridiculous conclusions like every other idiot in this thread. They aren't going to remove speed mods from the game. The vagabond is still going to be the fastest HAC by virtue of it's base attributes. Speed tanking just needs to be more like... tanking. Currently it's more like "you can't touch me until I decide to slow down lalalalala". On ships that aren't meant to be touched, like interceptors, it's fine though. Why? Because inties don't have tanking bonuses, or increased resists like other T2 ships. It's pretty obvious that ships were never meant to go that fast while still being able to sustain damage when they slow down. The Vagabond is an exception to this (along with a few other ships), and that's not going to change because no matter what they do it's still going to be comparatively faster than all other ships of it's class. I mean, was the Vagabond garbage before polycarb rigs? I didn't think so! Maybe after they nerf speed on big ships, they'll unnerf AFs and get people back in small ships who want to go fast. ok so using your logic here comes the 30 man vaga gangs supported by 10 people in crows sounds like fun to me
Crackzilla The Shadow Order SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.13 13:25:00 - [58] Originally by: DanMck here comes the 30 man vaga gangs supported by 10 people in crows I would rather see this than the mostly nano cruiser gangs that are typical. At least there would be a reason to fly ceptors. Currently the only reason to fly ceptors is if you're poor or suicidal. Otherwise a nano cruiser is a superior choice.
DanMck Amarr Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.13 13:34:00 - [59] Originally by: ***zilla Originally by:** DanMck here comes the 30 man vaga gangs supported by 10 people in crows I would rather see this than the mostly nano cruiser gangs that are typical. At least there would be a reason to fly ceptors. Currently the only reason to fly ceptors is if you're poor or suicidal. Otherwise a nano cruiser is a superior choice. what is the difference ? mixed gangs are what eve is all about if it ever gets to gangs of all one ship type then it's an easy way to work out something is overpowered or overnerfed also coming from smash who used to fit 5 wcs + on one ship is funny
Crackzilla The Shadow Order SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.13 14:31:00 - [60] Originally by: DanMck what is the difference ? mixed gangs are what eve is all about ...also coming from smash who used to fit 5 wcs + on one ship is funny Mixed gangs are not what eve is about anymore. Large fleets can afford to use various types but for small gangs and medium gangs speed is what matters. Battleships are a liablity and battlecruisers/command ships are tolerated for their speed buff. Tacklers have been replaced by nano hacs/recons. Gangs with battleships are vulnerable to nanos. Its often said that speed is the only way to counter larger fleets. Doesn't this indicate that speed is broken? And wcs were nerfed. Thankfully we have nanos which have replaced wcs (ie the stabbed stabber).
atrophocy Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.13 15:03:00 - [61] Edited by: atrophocy on 13/04/2008 15:08:59 Edited by: atrophocy on 13/04/2008 15:07:38 Edited by: atrophocy on 13/04/2008 15:07:12 Edited by: atrophocy on 13/04/2008 15:06:43 a vagabond mwding is near untouchable. just like a crow. but at that speed it out tracks itself and cant do any damage, even orbiting at base speed it's damage is pretty pitiful. i used to think vaga's were an iwin button. i trained for them, after a day of flying them i realized just how crappy they were at killing anything but interceptors solo. true if you know what you are doing you will never get killed, but it's pretty hard to kill anything bigger than a cruiser solo. I often catch ravens in belts, it goes like this Warp in, point, start orbiting and shooting, he starts firing cruise missiles. "ouch" my shields are dropping, i start mwding, then i do no damage, i was struggling to break his tank anyway, his tank is back up, i slow down , i take more damage. i warp off. "dammit, i want my isthar" and tacklers arent being replaced by nanohacs. a even with signal analysis V a vaga struggles to catch a cruiser on a gate before it warps if he has evasive V and no plates. there's still plenty of ceptors and dictors in gangs. I'm glad to see lots of people in this thread rubbishing the OP. it's about time. I'm sure most of the people who complain about nanoships have never ever flown one. maybe they should try and then they would realize just how flimsy they are. True you can run, you pick your fights, but at the same time it's very hard to actually kill anything without several nanohacs, which are very easily countered if you think outside the square. Go check tri's killboards and see how many nanoships we loose everyday. they're damn expensive and die very easily The problem i see is this. we want to go out in 10-20 man gangs. every time we do we run into 40-50 man gangs that just camp us in and blob us. if we are in slow ships we get cornerd and killed easily. after a few times you get sick of it, you dont want to be blobbed. you start flying fast ships, then the blobbers cant kill you, then they whine cos they refuse to adapt like we did. this is eve, not hello kitty. editing cos my spelling sucks and i had to add more ranting.
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.13 15:13:00 - [62] Edited by: NightmareX on 13/04/2008 15:16:00 Originally by: *****zilla And wcs were nerfed. Thankfully we have nanos which have replaced wcs (ie the stabbed stabber). So you mean that EVERY Interceptors ingame are "fitted" with the new WCS then?, because they are so damn fast and can get out in most cases? Or maybe i did understand that wrong lol.
Crackzilla The Shadow Order SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.13 16:18:00 - [63] Originally by: atrophocy killing anything but interceptors solo. So tacklers such as the hyena doesn't have a chance. Nano hacs/recons rip up ceptors/dictors/eas. Tacklers aren't effective against nanos unless they're suicidal and blob. A ceptor/hyena should have a shot at a nano. Conversely bigger ships can't effectively go after nanos. Which leaves nanos as the only rational ship to fly. Originally by: atrophocy True you can run, you pick your fights, but at the same time it's very hard to actually kill anything without several nanohacs, Yes the lack of dps is an issue. However thats easily fixed by flying larger groups of nanos. Since nanos can deal with most threats and run from others then nanos are the only rational ship to fly. Originally by: atrophocy Go check tri's killboards and see how many nanoships we loose everyday. they're damn expensive and die very easily Price doesn't mean that something is balanced. Nanos aren't that expensive. Spending isk on a nano is a better investment than most other ships. Very similiar to the issue with the nano battleships. A ship that is used will be lost. Nano battleships were lost but that doesn't mean they weren't balanced. The fact that so many nanos are flown says that we've got a problem. Originally by: atrophocy The problem i see is this. we want to go out in 10-20 man gangs. every time we do we run into 40-50 man gangs that just camp us in and blob us. if we are in slow ships we get cornerd and killed easily. after a few times you get sick of it, you dont want to be blobbed. you start flying fast ships, then the blobbers cant kill you, "blobbers cant kill you"? So you agree that nanos are very difficult to kill? That it is much safer to fly a nano then most other ships? That nanos offer the best chance to get kills with the least risk? Everyone blobs. The 10-20 man nano gang blobs the single raven. The 40-50 man gang blobs the nanos. Blobs aren't an excuse. What you're seeing is that groups want to defend themselves. Nanos make it very very difficult to defend. Just because you want to fly in a 10-20 man gang doesn't mean the other side has to accomodate and roll over. Nanos have replaced recons and cov ops type ships designed for the skirmish warfare. Nanos have made a joke of the black ops that was designed to allow skimish warfare ships to bypass the blob. Blobbers are adapting by flying nanos themselves. Soon it'll be the 10-20man nano gang versus the 40-50man nano gang. Nanos aren't the solution. Nanos are in fact part of the problem as the best way to catch nanos are lots and lots of ships.
Crackzilla The Shadow Order SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.13 16:28:00 - [64] Originally by: NightmareX 10x Tempest's with Autocannons, 1 Heavy Neut, 1x Large Remote Armor Rep and 1x ECM - Multispectral Jammer II fitted on each Tempest's vs 10-12 Vagabond's / other HAC's. And it's easy to say who will win that fight. The battleships sure won't. The nanos will test the gang. If the nanos feel threatened they'll withdrawl. The battleships are much more likely to be ganked. They must commit to the fight while the nanos do not. The nanos might lose a nano or two if they're unlucky. The battleships are more likely to lose the entire gang after someone calls in reinforcements.
Blackjack Turner Caldari Inverted Awareness United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.04.13 16:43:00 - [65] When we used to get speed boosts from nanofibers, calling a ship fitted to the max a nano ship made sense. Nanofibers and Inertial stabs were speed boost nerfed. So, what are these "nano pilots" fitting? Or are we just using the "nano" prefix to describe any speed tanked ship now? Fitting a BS with a combination of overdrives, and WCS just makes it real good against haulers and n00bs. I just want to touch on something else I saw posted in this thread. Has to do with devs reading these forums and such. Ya'll do realize that by CCP's estimates only a small precentage of the player base reads these threads? And only a percentage of those that read them actually post? Some whinage points out issues with the game. Most other whinage is just that. Whinage. Also someone posted a link to a thread where the devs discuss why they don't post in these threads either. After reading their explanation, why should they?
Matrixcvd Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.13 17:07:00 - [66] Edited by: Matrixcvd on 13/04/2008 17:07:32 Originally by: ***zilla Originally by:** NightmareX 10x Tempest's with Autocannons, 1 Heavy Neut, 1x Large Remote Armor Rep and 1x ECM - Multispectral Jammer II fitted on each Tempest's vs 10-12 Vagabond's / other HAC's. And it's easy to say who will win that fight. The battleships sure won't. The nanos will test the gang. If the nanos feel threatened they'll withdrawl. The battleships are much more likely to be ganked. They must commit to the fight while the nanos do not. The nanos might lose a nano or two if they're unlucky. so what if they disengage? why do you need to have a gentlemen's aggreement to PVP all of a sudden? Quit complaining about "chosing fights is the new WCS" that is the most ridiculous statement ever made Originally by: *****zilla The battleships are more likely to lose the entire gang after someone calls in reinforcements. so blobbing is a problem now? thats what it is? they come with moar friends? This is another crappy thread poasted by someone who fly's a drake, can't fit HACs, gets ripped up and whines. Ceptors still point things better, but they can't point everything. Each ship has its specialty but that doesn't make it the best all the time. If there is any change to speed on HACs/Recons all you will see is vagas, its not all about speed, some people like to do 7k most work well with 2.5-4k/s. THose aren't excessive speeds, what is excessive are the demands of CCP to make this game easier for large numbers of people to kill small groups all the time. thats it No matter how hard you try and complain, i don't think there will be any change made, you can look at people's killboards, see what effective ships and fits there are and build up your own experience. or you can just come on here and try to convince the rest of the nubs out there that you all are right and there is a huge problem wtih PVP, its YOU!
Rawr Cristina Caldari Naqam	Posted - 2008.04.13 17:21:00 - [67] Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 13/04/2008 17:22:22 Originally by: Mardig Originally by: Xaen Threads with sensationalist rhetorical questions the quickest route to fail? As opposed to your rhetorical post which fails? I agree with the poster who said nothing should be able to outrun a missile. A torpedo? Sure. Outrunning a missile is just silly. Outrunning the fastest combat missile in the game (precision lights from a cerb) in a Heavy Assault ship is what's silly. Weapons in EVE just wern't designed with 8km/sec HACs in mind. There ARE ways to counter them and there ARE ways to kill them - the problem with both nanos and their counters is they're very SP and ISK-intensive, leaving newer players in the cold. (PS: Un-nerfing WCS is only going to make nanoships harder to catch, as they'll have yet another disengagement option on top of speed, ECM drones and Falcon support) ...
Dez Affinity Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.04.13 17:26:00 - [68] If a group brings 20 BS to your home, what do you do? Do you attack them in Interceptors? No, you bring BS. So if agroup brings 20 Nanos to your home, what do you do? Attack them in Nanos? Yes. _______________
Norwood Franskly Minmatar Fleet of the Damned United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.13 17:32:00 - [69] Solo nano ships are fine it's the nano gangs that annoy me in particular the combination of nano gangs with force recon ships. As a hit and run setup they do their job fine but as a way of encouraging fights (doesn't every pvper claim they are after good fights) they fail hard as just about the only way to tackle a nano gang is to catch them in a bubble on a gate. Sure there are other ways to counter nano ships but people seem to forget that that only works if the pilot chooses to engage you, there is very little you can do to force a nano pilot to engage. If they even get the sniff of a remotely fair fight they'll run, I'll give credit where credits due I have a lot of respect for Triumvirate as they will stick around and do engage and our alliance has had a few very good fights with them, it's all the other copy cat alliances that annoy me... The person claiming nano ships won't kill ratters sure 1 vagabond won't kill a Raven but how about the nanoed gang of 5 vagabonds plus the inevitable nano zealots and nano ishtars that go with them?) As soon as you put together a gang to counter the nano ships they will just warp off you can't bait them because they'll have eyes on you thanks to the crappy covert ops cloaking devices on Falcons and Rapiers. I'll give you an example today our 12 person nano gang was off in Curse (I dunno it wasn't really a traditional nano gang as we didn't have many hacs but was certainly fast moving, gang was something like 2 Lachesis, Huginn, Claymore with skirmish links and some other stuff (gave an 80km scram on the lachesis when overheated ), Sabre (piloted by my alt), Vagabond, few intys, few electronic attack frigates (Hyenea's and Kitsune) and some stealth bombers for DPS). We get word that there was a enemy nano gang in a dead end system of our home region killing ratters, we burn back to the system make about 8 jumps very quickly (fast aligning gang). We get to the gate just as they are leaving system. I drop a bubble we start tackling, they immediately burn back to the gate without agressing whilst their rapier pilot cloaks on our side of the gate. We kill 1 nano ishtar that had some very nice loot in he's cargo and hopefully had some vry expensive implants in he's pod and the rest get away back into the dead end system (next time we will have more then 1 huginn ), there was 8 hostiles vs our 12 man gang, could have had a nice fight at this stage but no probably afraid of the dps edge we had with the stealth bombers... We call in an onyx pilot to cover the gate better then my sabre can and send in a buzzard pilot (to probe) along with our inty's (to tackle once he gets a hit) the probes on scan must make them nervous because they log off while the rapier pilot sits in our system taunting us in local. We get bored after about 15 minutes and go back to curse, you can bet they would have logged back in after that... So yes nano gangs let you gank ratters with almost impunity and make those flying them virtually immune to retaliation, if they were in a BS gang or a ecm heavy gang of Rooks or whatever else we could have got a very nice fight when we caught them on that gate but as the nano setup lets you burn back to the gate almost as quickly as you can lock them it's a 0 risk setup and that to me is the annoying part...
Tolarus Clown Punchers. Clown Punchers Syndicate	Posted - 2008.04.13 17:51:00 - [70] heres a great idea for warp core stabs. Everytime a pilot fits one it turns the hull of their ship bright pink
Yuleth Gix	Posted - 2008.04.13 18:04:00 - [71] The amount of people rushing to defend nano's really makes me happy :D It was exactly the same with the dual mwd, the ecm, the nos, the wcs. Oh boy history is a wonderful thing.
Crackzilla The Shadow Order SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.13 18:16:00 - [72] Originally by: Blackjack Turner ... So, what are these "nano pilots" fitting? Or are we just using the "nano" prefix to describe any speed tanked ship now? ... Mostly any speed tanked ship. I think most agree that the nano hacs/recons are where it starts to be a problem. Nano battleships are still some what possible and are still a problem but aren't very common because of the cost. Ceptors and frigs should be crazy fast. Originally by: Matrixcvd make this game easier for large numbers of people to kill small groups all the time. thats it No matter how hard you try and complain, i don't think there will be any change made, you can look at people's killboards, see what effective ships and fits there are and build up your own experience. I've got mine. Trained for Recon 5 on an alt and the nav skills to 5. This char went for the battleships and I don't use it to pvp much as battleships are mostly useless except in a large fleet. I trained for nanos on my alt. Very easy to fly. Very forgiving. The most effective ships out there are nanos. Which is an issue. The problem is that nanos and other min/max setups make it impossible for those with lower skills or without the fittings to compete. Nanos cater to the veterns and alienate those just starting. Originally by: Norwood Franskly ... I drop a bubble we start tackling, they immediately burn back to the gate without agressing whilst their rapier pilot cloaks on our side of the gate. Burning back to the gate is the norm. You need a dictor/hic on both sides of the gate and huginn/rapier for each nano you except to catch. Its a fools game. Best to fly nanos yourself and "blob" them. I would like to see a situation where nanos weren't that effective in getting back to the gate. Hugging the gate is as annoying as docking games at stations. Either change interia so that the faster they fly the less agility they have. This way they would be forced to align for the gate before doing the mwd burn. Or set it so that a gate session change has a 45 sec count down before someone can jump back the other way. Problem is the best spot to trap nanos is on the gate. However thats mostly ineffective. Then we get into the old logoff trick. Your first mistake was not flying more nanos. Your second mistake was not flying enough rapiers. YOu'll need to get rid of the huginns as nanos won't approach if they seem them. And you'll need to aim for 4-6 rapiers to counter a gang like you saw. Then the nanos will complain that you blob and will stop engaging.
KISOGOKU	Posted - 2008.04.13 19:03:00 - [73] Edited by: KISOGOKU on 13/04/2008 19:03:51 What you are wanting is riskless ships but rewards ,it breaks risk vs reward motto in eve and this is why wcs excatly nerfed Btw nice to see TRI defending nanowho** bravely if you want risk free game go play hello kitty online Edit:if only counter to nanowho* is another nano something is broken Originally by:** Matrixcvd so what if they disengage? why do you need to have a gentlemen's aggreement to PVP all of a sudden? Quit complaining about "chosing fights is the new WCS" that is the most ridiculous statement ever made
Calypso Rose	Posted - 2008.04.13 19:08:00 - [74] People too worried about loss won't commit to a fight regardless of what you nerf. Previously they would load up on WCS and run if they thought they couldn't win. Now they load up on speed and run if they think they can't win. After speed is nerfed they will find some new way to run if they don't think they can win. Alternatively they'll stick with blobbing and just not engage if they don't think they're guaranteed to win. Sadly these people won't change, they'll just adjust their tactics and continue pointing out their killboard stats.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.13 19:44:00 - [75] Originally by: ***zilla Mostly any speed tanked ship. I think most agree that the nano hacs/recons are where it starts to be a problem. Nano battleships are still some what possible and are still a problem but aren't very common because of the cost. Ceptors and frigs should be crazy fast. Why is it a problem? Quote: I've got mine. Trained for Recon 5 on an alt and the nav skills to 5. This char went for the battleships and I don't use it to pvp much as battleships are mostly useless except in a large fleet. I trained for nanos on my alt. Very easy to fly. Very forgiving. The most effective ships out there are nanos. Which is an issue. Oh Really? Which recon, post link to kb stat. Quote: The problem is that nanos and other min/max setups make it impossible for those with lower skills or without the fittings to compete. Nanos cater to the veterns and alienate those just starting. Just like oh...sniper fleets? Quote: Burning back to the gate is the norm. You need a dictor/hic on both sides of the gate and huginn/rapier for each nano you except to catch. Its a fools game. Best to fly nanos yourself and "blob" them. Ships designed to go fast are good at escaping gate camps, imagine that. What you want every ship to jump into your camp to die instantly? Quote: I would like to see a situation where nanos weren't that effective in getting back to the gate. Hugging the gate is as annoying as docking games at stations. Either change interia so that the faster they fly the less agility they have. This way they would be forced to align for the gate before doing the mwd burn. Or set it so that a gate session change has a 45 sec count down before someone can jump back the other way. Problem is the best spot to trap nanos is on the gate. However thats mostly ineffective. Then we get into the old logoff trick. Now you show your true color. You just want everything that jumps into a gatecamp to die. Even inties will die if the session change timer was 45 seconds. Burning back to the gate is the primary way for frigs and blockade runners to escape. Quote:** Your first mistake was not flying more nanos. Your second mistake was not flying enough rapiers. YOu'll need to get rid of the huginns as nanos won't approach if they seem them. And you'll need to aim for 4-6 rapiers to counter a gang like you saw. Then the nanos will complain that you blob and will stop engaging. Funny, we engage razor gangs with their 10 huginns and rapiers all the time. By the same token, you guys don't engage our RR bs gangs till you have twice our numbers and capital support, so pot, meet kettle.
Matrixcvd Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.13 22:43:00 - [76] Edited by: Matrixcvd on 13/04/2008 22:44:52 Originally by: ***zilla I trained for nanos on my alt. Very easy to fly. Very forgiving. The most effective ships out there are nanos. Which is an issue. The problem is that nanos and other min/max setups make it impossible for those with lower skills or without the fittings to compete. Nanos cater to the veterns and alienate those just starting. They are not the most effective ships in every fight. There are a variety of situations which would not be good for nanos large gang, POS warfare, sniper fights. They tend to be the best fit for small gang PVP, with logistics/Ewar they are lethal, but that doesn't make the case for nerfing it, it just makes the combination lethal. If something is leathal, then you need a serious plan to take care of it, just undocking MOAR BIGGAR SHIPS, is not the way to deal with something lethal With that, remove ganks from your furry with nano's. Something fast points an unsuspecting target, the target gets "blobbed" and it dies. that has nothing to do with game mechanics. People getting picked off not paying attention will happen, unless CCP nerfs the game to hello kitty mode, and then no one will play it You hit 1 point very clearly, High SP, High cost setups obviously will max any type of stat, couple that with indivudal FC experience and you have an unstoppable force unless met with moar of the same. That is not a failure of game mechanics thats life. You new people need to realize that you can't always win a fight, and sometimes you will never win a particlular engagment and there will be nothing you can do. We all go exist in the same place. Just because New Pilots, who incorrectly think they are fitted, experience a sizable discomfort from the PVP they engage in, is not necessarily, and certainly not in this case the cause, patience, lack of experience, and or lack of determination and personal effort to learn are what are responsible** WHen i was new, i use to look at all the start dates of pilots to see if i could handle myself, after a bout a year i stopped doing it cause it didnt matter. whatever is in this game, if it still resembles EVE will cause this to happen. 1. Moar of the same is a viable and perfectly reasonable situation to combat a particular ship/gang type, if you can't field it, its not the other fleets problem, its yours 2. Anything that helps blobs is bad for the game 3. Just because you use your modules, doesn't mean they will do damage, the targets speed must be reduced to maximize damage, go about that in either 2 ways, Energy or Web 4. There is no arena for PVP, there is no fair fight, there is no reason to think people who engage in combat should have to remain if they so chose to leave an engagement. If you think nanos stop people from "getting good fights" you are not of the experience to make a correct statement, and thus you are wrong. 5. Have patience and learn who you can fight, before actually engaging in PVP. 6. Speed in Eve has all the balance it will ever need, there is no reason to touch it.
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2008.04.13 22:45:00 - [77] If nanos are so "flimsy" and "can't kill anything". 1. Why do so many people fly them? 2. Why do people spend astronomical amounts of ISK on implants, rigs and faction speed mods to fit them? 3. Why are the prices of said implants, rigs and mods so high to begin with? 4. If flying fast ships is "fun" even though they can't kill anything, then what's the problem with flying interceptors who are also "flimsy" and do low DPS? Are they just not fun? Honest answers only, thanks.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.13 23:04:00 - [78] Originally by: Wet Ferret If nanos are so "flimsy" and "can't kill anything". 1. Why do so many people fly them? Because flying fast is fun, its not just approach, web, f1-f8. Quote: 2. Why do people spend astronomical amounts of ISK on implants, rigs and faction speed mods to fit them? Same reason people spend astronomical amounts of isk on implants, rigs, and faction tanking mods. Quote: 3. Why are the prices of said implants, rigs and mods so high to begin with? Rigs because it shares a component with the cargo expander rig. Mod prices arent too different from similar deadspace tanking gear. Hardwiring prices are the same as all the other hardwirings of the same grade. The reason snakes are so much more expensive than crystals and slaves is because there are lots of high quality guristas combat agents in venal. As for slaves, you cant go 2 jumps in Stain without stumbling over a L4 sansha combat agent. There is exactly ONE level 4 serpentis combat agent. It has quality 2. ONE. This is why snakes are so expensive. Quote: 4. If flying fast ships is "fun" even though they can't kill anything, then what's the problem with flying interceptors who are also "flimsy" and do low DPS? Are they just not fun? Honest answers only, thanks. Of course they can kill stuff. Enough velators can kill stuff. Hacs do lots more dps than inties, as well as having a bigger buffer. The tradeoff is they're generally MUCH slower and much much easier to hit.
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Stickler inc	Posted - 2008.04.13 23:12:00 - [79] Quote: 1. Why do so many people fly them? 2. Why do people spend astronomical amounts of ISK on implants, rigs and faction speed mods to fit them? 3. Why are the prices of said implants, rigs and mods so high to begin with? 4. If flying fast ships is "fun" even though they can't kill anything, then what's the problem with flying interceptors who are also "flimsy" and do low DPS? Are they just not fun? Having recently discovered the joy of interceptors,, 1. To ninja in and out of wherever I need to go without a fight. Doesn't mean I achieve much, but I get to where I need to be. 2. Because people value their other expensive headgear. 3. Basic market principles. 4. Twin webs?
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2008.04.13 23:29:00 - [80] Originally by: Wet Ferret If nanos are so "flimsy" and "can't kill anything". 1. Why do so many people fly them? Because they are a lot of fun to fly, and the chance to fall asleep behind the keyboard is less. Also they are the best tools for roaming and many people find the roaming style pvp to be the most fun. Originally by: Wet Ferret 2. Why do people spend astronomical amounts of ISK on implants, rigs and faction speed mods to fit them? Because some people have too much isk, and because it improves the ship. (oh and because poly's are expensive) Originally by: Wet Ferret 3. Why are the prices of said implants, rigs and mods so high to begin with? Basic market bla bla demand and supply or something along those lines. Originally by: Wet Ferret 4. If flying fast ships is "fun" even though they can't kill anything, then what's the problem with flying interceptors who are also "flimsy" and do low DPS? Are they just not fun? In a proper roaming gang you will need some interceptors aswell, because of the fast lock and the absurd speeds they can get (A LOT FASTER THEN NANO HAC / RECON) to catch those people that like to warp in at long range.
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.04.13 23:42:00 - [81] Originally by: Kylana Darkfate Either nerf nanos or unnerf Warp Core Stabs. Since Nanos can pretty much disengage and warp off if things get iffy, maybe shield/armor tanks should be able to do the same thing...again. Seems to be fair if you ask me. By the way when did CCP nerf WCS again? Was is the Bloodline patch where they introduced the Asians to the races, or the one where they introduced the new model BC and BS? Or was that the same patch? I can't remember it was long ago. I agree that nanos are the new fancy WCS. Kinda ironic since these guys are the ones that whined about WCS in the first place... they are now doing essentially the same thing. They run when they want to, and the kill you wehn they can. nanoweenies are the new pansies of the sky.
Norwood Franskly Minmatar Fleet of the Damned United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.14 00:03:00 - [82] After thinking about it some more I don't really think nano are overpowered I just think of them as annoying. What makes them annoying is the way they are used. It's obvious from reading the background fiction and from the way it's designed that the vagabond is designed for hit and run combat, get in do some damage and then leave before enemy resistance arrives and the ship excels at that, perhaps it excels at it a little to well though and it's lead to the situation you have today where large gangs of fast moving ships are the most dominate type of fleet in existence and you suddenly have hit and run being carried out on a grand scale. Sure there are counters to fight nano gangs but the truth of the matter is the counters won't work unless the nano gang decide to engage you and this is where the annoying part comes into it. You get opposing gangs of nano ships dancing around each other in 0.0 until one gang gets caught (usually at a gate) and for better or worse forced into a fight. Of of course this only happens if the nano gang isn't competent enough to have decent scouts. it's gotten to the stage where a pvp victory becomes trapping the nano gang in a dead end system and forcing them to logout and to me thats a boring way to spend a nights play. Sure some people do use nano gangs aggressively and to great effect but a larger and larger number of people are using them as an easy way to get cheap ganks with relatively low risk. Nothing wrong with that as they were designed to be used as hit and run ship but as far as encouraging pvp they don't really work unless you consider ganking ratters and camping gates to be good pvp, to me good pvp needs risk as in it putting your ship on the line against another pilot something nano ships kind of discourage.
atrophocy Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.14 01:07:00 - [83] well, the people that i know who fly nanoships are always looking for fights. They fly nanoships because they allow them to fight out numbered deep in hostile territory without the threat of getting blobbed and camped by 50 people. The alliances that use them most, Tri, Pandemic legion, outbreak etc will never ever shy away from a fight. even if it's 10 nanoships vs 30 assorted ships. And Mr Smash guy, [i forgot your name] ofc 5 man nanoship gangs gank solo ravens. solo ravens have been ganked by small gangs since forever. whether it's 5 nanohacs, 5 battlecruisers or 5 motherships, really what difference does it make? he has no chance either way. And you're other point, that interceptors/eas's have no chance against vagabonds. That's how it's supposed to be. vagabonds have always been notorious ceptor killers. No other nanohacs can do it quite the same though. zealots dont have the tracking with heavy pulse II's, and you can get into orbit around them easily because they are slow, most nanozealots dont break 3k. ishtars, warrior II's wont touch a ceptor doing a decent speed at the ishtars guns sure as hell aint gonna kill it.
Lo3d3R MAFIA	Posted - 2008.04.14 01:48:00 - [84] dunno if you heard... but... for the last time... nano-modules: inertia, overdrives, nanofibers and polyrigs will start stacking each other. (probaly will not be usefull using more then two of those modules at the same time if they nerf it correctly) so said the devs on 2 different occasions iirc, 1 podcast when the alliance tourney was being held, and on a live devblog podcast. now all go to bed and do not touch the keyboard for atleast 24h. ___________________ Sexy Time:
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.04.14 02:03:00 - [85] Originally by: Kylana Darkfate Either nerf nanos or unnerf Warp Core Stabs. Since Nanos can pretty much disengage and warp off if things get iffy, maybe shield/armor tanks should be able to do the same thing...again. Seems to be fair if you ask me. Omg, you fail. I've disengaged about 20 times in a armour tanked Hurricane at least. You don't have to start in webrange for every fight, you know... Also, new WCS: If he had a single WCS he'd live Three WCS and he'd live Two WCS and he'd live. Also had fighters assigned. WCS and he'd live, Myrmidon was 40km off and ninjaing on the KM. Three gyrostabs on a Cynabal rock, btw. Wouldn't happen if he had WCS, as you claim. Instead of fitting polys, he should have fitted WCS. He couldn't have guessed I'd be 50km off the belt center, I guess. Since nanos are the new WCS he should've lived naturally These new WCS must suck if they're that ineffective vs single point ships. Why didn't the nubbin just warp off with new WCS?? New WCS and he dies. Strange. This guy REALLY should've been fitting old wcs ;) Shame on genny for ninja-ing on the KM, you don't solo rapiers in a ruppy that often. New WCS fails to work again. If he had new wcs, why didn't he just warp? strange. New WCS sucks if you can't even run from a bleeding Rifter New WCS is fail If he had WCS, he'd have lived Another example of new WCS just malfuctioning, wth?? This new WCS sucks, doesn't even work for ceptors What? New WCS simply doesn't work so well as the old ones. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Norwood Franskly Minmatar Fleet of the Damned United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.14 02:38:00 - [86] Originally by: atrophocy well, the people that i know who fly nanoships are always looking for fights. They fly nanoships because they allow them to fight out numbered deep in hostile territory without the threat of getting blobbed and camped by 50 people. The alliances that use them most, Tri, Pandemic legion, outbreak etc will never ever shy away from a fight. even if it's 10 nanoships vs 30 assorted ships. Yeah I can confirm you guys are always up for a fight and have a lot resect for what you guys in Tri do, but sadly a lot of the nano gangs we see in our space don't really share your sentiments. which makes me sad they seem more interested in roaming around looking for easy kills than roaming around looking for a fight. Probably has a lot to do with our region (being right next to curse, which is NPC space) and the politics of the area etc then anything else.
atrophocy Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.14 02:44:00 - [87] Originally by: Norwood Franskly Originally by: atrophocy well, the people that i know who fly nanoships are always looking for fights. They fly nanoships because they allow them to fight out numbered deep in hostile territory without the threat of getting blobbed and camped by 50 people. The alliances that use them most, Tri, Pandemic legion, outbreak etc will never ever shy away from a fight. even if it's 10 nanoships vs 30 assorted ships. Yeah I can confirm you guys are always up for a fight and have a lot resect for what you guys in Tri do, but sadly a lot of the nano gangs we see in our space don't really share your sentiments. which makes me sad they seem more interested in roaming around looking for easy kills than roaming around looking for a fight. Probably has a lot to do with our region (being right next to curse, which is NPC space) and the politics of the area etc then anything else. Tehe. yea. i know why they all come to wicked creek. i lived there for the best part of a year. It's a great place to hunt. i really enjoy it, especially since i know the region better than 90% of people who live there and have sniper bookmars on every gate and safes in every system etc. maybe i'll see you in C006 sometime
Norwood Franskly Minmatar Fleet of the Damned United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.14 03:09:00 - [88] Originally by: atrophocy Originally by: Norwood Franskly Originally by: atrophocy well, the people that i know who fly nanoships are always looking for fights. They fly nanoships because they allow them to fight out numbered deep in hostile territory without the threat of getting blobbed and camped by 50 people. The alliances that use them most, Tri, Pandemic legion, outbreak etc will never ever shy away from a fight. even if it's 10 nanoships vs 30 assorted ships. Yeah I can confirm you guys are always up for a fight and have a lot resect for what you guys in Tri do, but sadly a lot of the nano gangs we see in our space don't really share your sentiments. which makes me sad they seem more interested in roaming around looking for easy kills than roaming around looking for a fight. Probably has a lot to do with our region (being right next to curse, which is NPC space) and the politics of the area etc then anything else. Tehe. yea. i know why they all come to wicked creek. i lived there for the best part of a year. It's a great place to hunt. i really enjoy it, especially since i know the region better than 90% of people who live there and have sniper bookmars on every gate and safes in every system etc. maybe i'll see you in C006 sometime I dare say you will :) try to stick to the Australian timezone makes life a lot easier for me :)
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2008.04.14 03:30:00 - [89] Originally by: Cpt Branko New WCS simply doesn't work so well as the old ones. Otherwise, there's a bunch of examples of ships which simply wouldn't have died with the old WCS and died with the so-called "new WCS". Old WCS didn't offer any kind of tankability, only escape. So once locked down they died easier. Honestly, how many WCS'd ships would have survived if they had "just nanoed" instead? Both give freedom of engagement to an extent, and both have counters. However, speed fits offer a much higher chance to escape from the same counters which are supposed to kill them. Did WCS make you align faster? Did they make turrets miss you more often? Or reduce missile damage? They didn't. It was giving up valuable low-slots for no benefits at all except for the ability to escape if not enough points were put on you. Besides, HICs make WCS a joke anyway. Go ahead and bring an Apoc with 8 stabs and no tank to a fight now and see what happens.. lol. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Norwood Franskly Minmatar Fleet of the Damned United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.14 03:39:00 - [90] We killed a domi that had 7 w/c stabs on the weekend so I guess people still fit them...
atrophocy Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.14 04:33:00 - [91] Originally by: Norwood Franskly Originally by: atrophocy Originally by: Norwood Franskly Originally by: atrophocy well, the people that i know who fly nanoships are always looking for fights. They fly nanoships because they allow them to fight out numbered deep in hostile territory without the threat of getting blobbed and camped by 50 people. The alliances that use them most, Tri, Pandemic legion, outbreak etc will never ever shy away from a fight. even if it's 10 nanoships vs 30 assorted ships. Yeah I can confirm you guys are always up for a fight and have a lot resect for what you guys in Tri do, but sadly a lot of the nano gangs we see in our space don't really share your sentiments. which makes me sad they seem more interested in roaming around looking for easy kills than roaming around looking for a fight. Probably has a lot to do with our region (being right next to curse, which is NPC space) and the politics of the area etc then anything else. Tehe. yea. i know why they all come to wicked creek. i lived there for the best part of a year. It's a great place to hunt. i really enjoy it, especially since i know the region better than 90% of people who live there and have sniper bookmars on every gate and safes in every system etc. maybe i'll see you in C006 sometime I dare say you will :) try to stick to the Australian timezone makes life a lot easier for me :) I'm from NZ, australian TZ is the kinda time i usually go solo roaming as all my corpies are uk/us timezone
NightmareX Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.14 09:03:00 - [92] Edited by: NightmareX on 14/04/2008 09:04:26 Originally by: ***zilla Originally by:** NightmareX 10x Tempest's with Autocannons, 1 Heavy Neut, 1x Large Remote Armor Rep and 1x ECM - Multispectral Jammer II fitted on each Tempest's vs 10-12 Vagabond's / other HAC's. And it's easy to say who will win that fight. The battleships sure won't. The nanos will test the gang. If the nanos feel threatened they'll withdrawl. The battleships are much more likely to be ganked. They must commit to the fight while the nanos do not. The nanos might lose a nano or two if they're unlucky. The battleships are more likely to lose the entire gang after someone calls in reinforcements. The HAC's will either run away or will stay and die. The HAC's can't kill that 10x Tempest gang for sure. Why do we always have to KILL them to be able to win?. It's not always about the kills everytime.
Corstaad Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv	Posted - 2008.04.14 09:22:00 - [93] Pew pew approach spam approach Pew pew.
Shintai Gallente Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards	Posted - 2008.04.14 09:50:00 - [94] Originally by: Dianeces Originally by: Atius Tirawa In my opinion, nothing should outrun a missle - once that becomes possible in anything larger then an inti - something is wrong. Will we be removing tracking for everything save Inties now, too? I, for one, welcome the new age of battleships BBQing everything. New age? We had BS BBQing everything many years ago Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Dianeces Minmatar The Illuminati.	Posted - 2008.04.14 09:53:00 - [95] Originally by: Shintai Originally by: Dianeces Originally by: Atius Tirawa In my opinion, nothing should outrun a missle - once that becomes possible in anything larger then an inti - something is wrong. Will we be removing tracking for everything save Inties now, too? I, for one, welcome the new age of battleships BBQing everything. New age? We had BS BBQing everything many years ago Thanks for taking the time to understand what I meant by that poast. I appreciate it. No, really, I do.
Ambien Torca	Posted - 2008.04.14 10:03:00 - [96] Edited by: Ambien Torca on 14/04/2008 10:04:55 Edited by: Ambien Torca on 14/04/2008 10:04:03 Why do we always have to KILL them to be able to win?. It's not always about the kills everytime. - Because repairs are free. If armor reppers and such didn¦t exist and you¦d have to spend iskies to get your ship fixed you would have a point but as EVEs is currently people who manage to run have only lost time (possibility of losing drones but that is quite minor cost these days when looking at drone prices in market) and you have lost time too. If anything raiders are already inflicting ISK loss with their mere presence since people will be bound for defense for the duration.
ry ry StateCorp Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.14 10:22:00 - [97] Edited by: ry ry on 14/04/2008 10:22:34 Originally by: Dianeces Originally by: Shintai Originally by: Dianeces Originally by: Atius Tirawa In my opinion, nothing should outrun a missle - once that becomes possible in anything larger then an inti - something is wrong. Will we be removing tracking for everything save Inties now, too? I, for one, welcome the new age of battleships BBQing everything. New age? We had BS BBQing everything many years ago Thanks for taking the time to understand what I meant by that poast. I appreciate it. No, really, I do. you know what would be really cool? stacking heatsinks. that would rock.
Dianeces Minmatar The Illuminati.	Posted - 2008.04.14 10:34:00 - [98] Originally by: ry ry you know what would be really cool? stacking heatsinks. that would rock. Hmm, you're right. That does sound like a really good idea. Someone should bug CCP about that.
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.04.14 10:43:00 - [99] Originally by: Gamesguy Now you show your true color. You just want everything that jumps into a gatecamp to die. Even inties will die if the session change timer was 45 seconds. Burning back to the gate is the primary way for frigs and blockade runners to escape. You hit the nail on the head. Most whiners in fact want their gatecamps to be a automatic killmail delivery system - something jumps in, F1-F8, loot dropped, killmail received. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Plaetean D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.14 10:45:00 - [100] Edited by: Plaetean on 14/04/2008 10:45:21 Originally by: Madla Mafia Nano's are fine. Worry about something else, like the Pilgrim! This. Nanos are fine, and they're a good counter to the shocking blobs that are thundering around 0.0 now. Nanos are not cheap, nanos are not easy to fly, nanos are extremely flimsy - one false move and you're 300m out of pocket, nanos can be killed fine if you organise your gang properly (as the nano gangs have done). Remove an effective way to fight in small gangs, and you'll just result in further blobbing. EDIT: That said, amarr were fine too, but oh well. -----
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.04.14 11:19:00 - [101] I like flying nano ships my self. They are a lot of fun to fly. However, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here for a while and ask: Why are nano ships fun to fly? There are two answers that come to mind: 1 Because going fast is super kewl. 2 Because noone can hit me. If you picked 1 you shouldn't really have a problem with the removal or reworking of turret tracking mechanics making people hit you more often. If you picked 2 you more or less imply that there is a problem with nanos. So, which one do you pick? Do you have a third answer? Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Matrixcvd Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.14 11:47:00 - [102] Edited by: Matrixcvd on 14/04/2008 11:48:50 Originally by: Lo3d3R dunno if you heard... but... for the last time... nano-modules: inertia, overdrives, nanofibers and polyrigs will start stacking each other. (probaly will not be usefull using more then two of those modules at the same time if they nerf it correctly) so said the devs on 2 different occasions iirc, 1 podcast when the alliance tourney was being held, and on a live devblog podcast. now all go to bed and do not touch the keyboard for atleast 24h. Average nanohac speed is between 2.5-4k, vagas around 6, only pipped get to 8-10 with gang bonuses, you still get hit at the low end, and do no damage at the high end... there is no problem and the dev's mentioned nanotitans and nanoBS's. The dev's also mentioned only 5 fighters for carriers, and deimos slot changes... if changes are made, they will hit sisi, and if all those changes just make it ridiculously easy for people to get blobbed and die alot simply by the fact that bringing moar biggar is the best, 60 page threadnoughts will be all the rage till it gets changed back... too many times, the changes have been just to drastic...
Plaetean D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.14 11:49:00 - [103] Edited by: Plaetean on 14/04/2008 11:54:42 Originally by: Ki An I like flying nano ships my self. They are a lot of fun to fly. However, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here for a while and ask: Why are nano ships fun to fly? There are two answers that come to mind: 1 Because going fast is super kewl. 2 Because noone can hit me. If you picked 1 you shouldn't really have a problem with the removal or reworking of turret tracking mechanics making people hit you more often. If you picked 2 you more or less imply that there is a problem with nanos. So, which one do you pick? Do you have a third answer? It's nowhere near as simple as that >.< Nanos are not iwin, nanos do not mean you'll never be hit. Think of transversal, think of having to drop speed to change direction etc etc. Also nanos don't just sit in an engagement and fly as fast as they can in a straight line shouting 'YOU CAN'T HIT ME!'. The nano ships too, are dealing ew, trying to take out primaries, while also worried about neuts and not getting tackled etc. I fly them so fights aren't as boring as just jump in, turn on tank, sit there hitting primaries until you yourself are primaried and instapopped. Edit: Spelling. -----
Tolarus Clown Punchers. Clown Punchers Syndicate	Posted - 2008.04.14 16:50:00 - [104] Originally by: Matrixcvd and the dev's mentioned nanotitans and nanoBS's. The dev's also mentioned only 5 fighters for carriers, and deimos slot changes... if changes are made, they will hit sisi, and if all those changes just make it ridiculously easy for people to get blobbed and die alot simply by the fact that bringing moar biggar is the best, 60 page threadnoughts will be all the rage till it gets changed back... too many times, the changes have been just to drastic... oh man they better not mess with my Deimos
atrophocy Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.14 20:15:00 - [105] Originally by: Ambien Torca Edited by: Ambien Torca on 14/04/2008 10:04:55 Edited by: Ambien Torca on 14/04/2008 10:04:03 Why do we always have to KILL them to be able to win?. It's not always about the kills everytime. - Because repairs are free. If armor reppers and such didn¦t exist and you¦d have to spend iskies to get your ship fixed you would have a point but as EVEs is currently people who manage to run have only lost time (possibility of losing drones but that is quite minor cost these days when looking at drone prices in market) and you have lost time too. If anything raiders are already inflicting ISK loss with their mere presence since people will be bound for defense for the duration. you know, pvp isnt just about causing damage to your opponents. the main factor is having fun. if you've engaged, had a go, couldnt win and retreated. You've had some fun and a quick fight, nobody's lost anything
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.14 20:40:00 - [106] Originally by: Ki An I like flying nano ships my self. They are a lot of fun to fly. However, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here for a while and ask: Why are nano ships fun to fly? There are two answers that come to mind: 1 Because going fast is super kewl. 2 Because noone can hit me. If you picked 1 you shouldn't really have a problem with the removal or reworking of turret tracking mechanics making people hit you more often. If you picked 2 you more or less imply that there is a problem with nanos. So, which one do you pick? Do you have a third answer? Medium ACs and pulse lasers hit nano-hacs just fine.
Crackzilla The Shadow Order SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.15 03:11:00 - [107] Originally by: atrophocy you know, pvp isnt just about causing damage to your opponents. the main factor is having fun. if you've engaged, had a go, couldnt win and retreated. You've had some fun and a quick fight, nobody's lost anything Thats the point. If you're in a nano sure they're fun. If you're not in a nano they're not so fun. After a few fights folks quickly learn that its pointless to fight. The only way to win is to safe up or dock. If they bother to undock or attempt a fight they're yelled at in voice coms. Many players aren't so young. They didn't sign up for a twitch shooter. They wanted tactics and a bit of time to think. This demographic hates nanos as it feels like whack a mole. They're excluded from much of the game. Others wanted to train for for larger ships and they resent seeing what they wanted to fly not work. As much as you tell them to train for nanos they won't do it. Others don't have the experience or the skill points. They can't pick up pvp and have a bit of fun like before. They're forced to use some sort of support ship like a blackbird because most other low sp ships aren't effective. Other alliances and corps fly nanos, and they recruit players that fly nanos. Everything is peachy. On the other hand its sad to see players stop playing when the game ceases to be fun because its no longer the game they knew. Yes, games change. It is a problem when the game only becomes fun for a few.
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.04.15 04:40:00 - [108] cuz nanos are for weenies... thus the term nanoweenie. do i have to teach everyone about this game?

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