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Sean Faust Point of No Return	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:40:00 - [1] I fly around with a group of players who all pilot HACs, recons, and the occasional command ship. Mostly they're al Minnie/Caldari HAC pilots in cerbs and vagas, with at least one guy I know who flies a sac, and a couple nighthawk/vulture pilots. I can fly both Amarr and Gallente Battlecruisers and can fit t2 Gallente guns but not t2 Amarr guns. I'm training for a HAC and have narrowed it down to Deimos, Ishtar, or Zealot (sac involves too much time invested in missile skills that will come way later down the line). Which one would be the best one to complement the ships of the people I run with? I'm closest to a Deimos because I can already use t2 med blasters and have decent nav skills. Ishtar would involve having to train up Heavy Drones to 5, and Zealot would involve getting their cruisers from 3-5 and training for Amarr t2 guns. So, knowing all of this... and based on the facts that the Deimos would be the shortest time to get into, and Zealot the longest, which one should I train for first to roll with my mates?
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:49:00 - [2] IMO: Deimos (closest) Sacrilege (best HAC) Zealot (good range) Ishtar (WTFOMGBBQ skill intensive) I've got around about 6M in drones right now, and I'm only just starting to make the Ishtar shine. I've your drone skills aren't superb, I'd say the Deimos is a better bet. The Sac and Zealot are both better choices than the Ishtar and Deimos respectively. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Tronjay Phantasmal Collective Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:50:00 - [3] I would recommend the Ishtar for moving gangs and the Deimos for close range combat (gatecamping).
Taguchi Hiroko Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:50:00 - [4] Deimos is a pretty mediocre HAC. Go for the Ishtar. Nano Ishtar is great. Zealot after the 5th turrent boost is pretty decent now.
Sean Faust Point of No Return	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:52:00 - [5] I have just shy of 3m SP in gunnery (mostly aimed specifically at blasters), and about 900k in drones. Guess that means the Ishtar is a LONG way off. As far as the sac goes, I don't even have 200k in missiles yet =/
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:54:00 - [6] Originally by: Sean Faust I have just shy of 3m SP in gunnery (mostly aimed specifically at blasters), and about 900k in drones. Guess that means the Ishtar is a LONG way off. As far as the sac goes, I don't even have 200k in missiles yet =/ Yeah, with 900K in drones, I'd say you're far better off in another HAC. The HAM skills will be far faster to train up than drones... because most missile support skills don't apply to HAMs. :) -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Sean Faust Point of No Return	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:55:00 - [7] Originally by: Taguchi Hiroko Deimos is a pretty mediocre HAC. Go for the Ishtar. Nano Ishtar is great. Zealot after the 5th turrent boost is pretty decent now. Yeah, they warned me about the Deimos, saying that because of its poor range it doesn't get the chance to use its insane DPS all that much unless you use null and then you'd be better off in an Amarr ship with pulses. Still, it can't be COMPLETELY useless and I already have so much SP invested in gunnery, all I gotta do is get gallente cruiser to 5 and I'm in it.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:56:00 - [8] Originally by: Sean Faust Yeah, they warned me about the Deimos, saying that because of its poor range it doesn't get the chance to use its insane DPS all that much unless you use null and then you'd be better off in an Amarr ship with pulses. Still, it can't be COMPLETELY useless and I already have so much SP invested in gunnery, all I gotta do is get gallente cruiser to 5 and I'm in it. The Zealot is a better choice for the gangs that you're in. But you can always fit rails to your Deimos... -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Sean Faust Point of No Return	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:59:00 - [9] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Sean Faust Yeah, they warned me about the Deimos, saying that because of its poor range it doesn't get the chance to use its insane DPS all that much unless you use null and then you'd be better off in an Amarr ship with pulses. Still, it can't be COMPLETELY useless and I already have so much SP invested in gunnery, all I gotta do is get gallente cruiser to 5 and I'm in it. The Zealot is a better choice for the gangs that you're in. But you can always fit rails to your Deimos... -Liang I suppose you could do that, and I guess there are ways to make it work, but fitting rails to a ship that was obviously designed from the ground up specifically for blasters just seems so . . WRONG =/
Taguchi Hiroko Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.26 17:02:00 - [10] Edited by: Taguchi Hiroko on 26/03/2008 17:03:48 Originally by: Sean Faust I have just shy of 3m SP in gunnery (mostly aimed specifically at blasters), and about 900k in drones. Guess that means the Ishtar is a LONG way off. As far as the sac goes, I don't even have 200k in missiles yet =/ I took the same specilization route as you thinking I will fly Deimos til the end of my career. There are many problems with the Deimos which makes it a pretty average if not sub-standard HAC: 1. it is slow 2. it has cap problems for sustained combat 3. it is almost always primaried in gang fights because of its average tankability, and dps. 4. very expensive to replace, especially if you want to fit neutrons, which often requires pg rigs. 5. it requires very specific situations to shine, namely, your target has to be close, and has to be slow moving if not close within web range (which implies for Deimos, a web is necessary). 6. when your fc calls primaries, half the time that primary is outside of your web range. You will be deprived of many killmails because of this. anyway, I flew deimos and little else for about 1 year, and I can tell you there are better things to specialize in, like ishtar, or vagabond. Both of which are just pwn, and there are very good reasons why they are the most popular HAC's in eve. I should have trained for them in the beginning.

Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 17:02:00 - [11] Originally by: Sean Faust I suppose you could do that, and I guess there are ways to make it work, but fitting rails to a ship that was obviously designed from the ground up specifically for blasters just seems so . . WRONG =/ I'm not saying that it isn't. ;-) I'm saying that you're going to have to make a choice: - Blaster Deimos (+short train, -risk to dealing damage) - Rail Deimos (+short train, -damage amount and looking stupid) - Ishtar (-really long train, +good choice) - Zealot (-longer train, +range and damage) - Sacrilege (-longer train, +best HAC for the job) Pick the one that suits you. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Trevor Warps Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.26 17:56:00 - [12] About the sac, well yeah it looks decent and stuff, but is it really that good ? I mean, the only one i fought poped fairly quick (to my hyperion, guess that figures) and failed to pop the crow that walked by in its web range. I don't see how it is better than the zealot, especially now.
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:01:00 - [13] Originally by: Trevor Warps About the sac, well yeah it looks decent and stuff, but is it really that good ? I mean, the only one i fought poped fairly quick (to my hyperion, guess that figures) and failed to pop the crow that walked by in its web range. I don't see how it is better than the zealot, especially now. It can be fitted to go reasonably fast + it uses missiles
Sean Faust Point of No Return	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:06:00 - [14] So what I'm basically getting here is that the only reasons worth training Gallente cruiser to V are for the Phobos and maybe, way way way later on down the line, after I have more SP invested in drones than my current total SP (almost 8 million), getting into an Ishtar. That sorta sucks. Maybe I'll put that 20-day train off for another time then and work more on my Amarr skills to get into a Zealot and then a Sacrilege. Some time ago I made a goal for myself about eventually being able to fly both Gallente and Amarr HACs and Command ships. I have no desire to ever train up Caldari except to fly ECM ships, and there are too many Minmatar/Vaga pilots (though hardly any Sleipnir pilots) in the groups I roll with. Since the use of blasters is too situational, I think I'm going to focus solely on Amarr, until I have enough SP invested in drones to go for the Ishtar.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:11:00 - [15] Originally by: Sean Faust Since the use of blasters is too situational, I think I'm going to focus solely on Amarr, until I have enough SP invested in drones to go for the Ishtar. If you never focus on the drones, you'll never get there. Gotta bite the bullet some time... :P You can be a (barely) competent Ishtar pilot with only about 3.5-4.5M SP in Drones... but you won't really make it shine that way. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Dreadpilot Roberts REUNI0N Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:22:00 - [16] Originally by: Liang Nuren IMO: Deimos (closest) Sacrilege (best HAC) Zealot (good range) Ishtar (WTFOMGBBQ skill intensive) I've got around about 6M in drones right now, and I'm only just starting to make the Ishtar shine. I've your drone skills aren't superb, I'd say the Deimos is a better bet. The Sac and Zealot are both better choices than the Ishtar and Deimos respectively. -Liang this = bogus You just need t2 Ogre II's, drone interfacing IV and good navigation skills and good support skills to fly the ishtar. Drone interfacing V is a plus ... though you can train that at a later time as a specialization. Also t2 sentries are great ... but then again that's a specialization also. I say get your navigation skills up and support skills, and train for t2 ogres then you can choose to spec your drone skills or go for BS with t2 guns. It's either that or train for a nano-zealot with t2 HP IIs ... provided you already have decent gunnery skills already. P.S. all relative support skills should be at lvl 4 at least. I'm sorry, did I say u could speak ?
Sean Faust Point of No Return	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:23:00 - [17] Edited by: Sean Faust on 26/03/2008 18:24:44 Originally by: Liang Nuren If you never focus on the drones, you'll never get there. Gotta bite the bullet some time... :P -Liang I will eventually, but what I meant was that since I already have so much SP invested in a specific weapon typ (gunnery), I might as well train first for the one that makes best use of my existing skills before I devote even more training time getting into a ship that I'll have to train up a whole new weapon type for. Even worse would be having to train for a shield tanking ship that uses non-gunnery weapons. I think I'd rather shoot myself. Looks like Zealot it is, then Sac, then Amarr CS's. After that I'll worry about the Ishtar. But based on all the armor tanking related SP I have (Hull Upgrades V, Comp skills vary between 2/3/4, Mechanic V), and my nearly 3m sp in gunnery, getting into t2 Amarr laser ships just seems so much easier than anything else at this point.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:24:00 - [18] Originally by: Dreadpilot Roberts this = bogus You just need t2 Ogre II's, drone interfacing IV and good navigation skills and good support skills to fly the ishtar. Drone interfacing V is a plus ... though you can train that at a later time as a specialization. Also t2 sentries are great ... but then again that's a specialization also. I'd say that it's bogus to say that's "all you need". The Ishtar is a good HAC because it has versatility. If you don't have the skills for said versatility, you're better off in another ship. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Trevor Warps Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:24:00 - [19] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Sean Faust Since the use of blasters is too situational, I think I'm going to focus solely on Amarr, until I have enough SP invested in drones to go for the Ishtar. If you never focus on the drones, you'll never get there. Gotta bite the bullet some time... :P You can be a (barely) competent Ishtar pilot with only about 3.5-4.5M SP in Drones... but you won't really make it shine that way. -Liang Well at 4m you got hvy drones 5 and interfacing 5 and supports to 4. I dont think 5% less travel time or optimal will make the difference between shining or not.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:25:00 - [20] Originally by: Trevor Warps Well at 4m you got hvy drones 5 and interfacing 5 and supports to 4. I dont think 5% less travel time or optimal will make the difference between shining or not. See above. -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.

Trevor Warps Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:29:00 - [21] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Trevor Warps Well at 4m you got hvy drones 5 and interfacing 5 and supports to 4. I dont think 5% less travel time or optimal will make the difference between shining or not. See above. And what secret you know that we dont ? Sentries II ? Very situationnal and hogs up much drone bay space. At 4m in drones you can make the Ishtar shine.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:37:00 - [22] Originally by: Trevor Warps And what secret you know that we dont ? Sentries II ? Very situationnal and hogs up much drone bay space. At 4m in drones you can make the Ishtar shine. Just off the top of my head: Drones 5 Scout Drones 5 Combat Drones 5 Heavy Drones 5 Sentry Drones 5 Repair Drones 5 Electronic Warfare Drone Interfacing 4 Drone Durability 5 Amarr Drone Spec 4 Caldari Drone Spec 4 Gallente Drone Spec 4 Minmatar Drone Spec 4 Drone Navigation 4-5 Drone Sharpshooting 4 THEN you can start worrying about "ship skills" and "support skills" - and you better pray you have really good fitting skills if you aren't going to nano the crap out of it. The ship is very nearly impossible to fit without faction (barring nano). If they nerf nano, the Ishtar will need a boost to fittings. And you're telling some poor sod with Drones 5, Scout Drones 5, and Gallente Spec 3-4 to train up the Ishtar when he's within 20 days of a Deimos, and maybe 60 of a Zealot. WTF? -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
EvilSpork Invicta.	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:38:00 - [23] Edited by: EvilSpork on 26/03/2008 18:46:11 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Sean Faust I have just shy of 3m SP in gunnery (mostly aimed specifically at blasters), and about 900k in drones. Guess that means the Ishtar is a LONG way off. As far as the sac goes, I don't even have 200k in missiles yet =/ Yeah, with 900K in drones, I'd say you're far better off in another HAC. The HAM skills will be far faster to train up than drones... because most missile support skills don't apply to HAMs. :) -Liang agreed. sacrilege is AWESOME, and the HAM skills arent too bad. but only guided missile precision and... one other do NOT apply to rocket/HAMs/tops, the rest do. BUT there arent as many missile skills as gunnery. its a toss up, but the sacrilege is an awesome ship. i do want to break the ship and have a sacrilege with a 6th low slot.. but that would be TOO insane though edit: get into a deimos and try it, and if you dont like it by the time you get HAC to lvl 4, start training for a zealot? its an idea... i have to say, after flying amarr HACs a bit now, im more or less decided to spec in them. as a side note: i was about to cross train for an ishtar. now im not. i see what you mean about skills... too many.. gah... i like my lazors
Dreadpilot Roberts REUNI0N Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:39:00 - [24] Originally by: Sean Faust Edited by: Sean Faust on 26/03/2008 18:28:11 Originally by: Liang Nuren If you never focus on the drones, you'll never get there. Gotta bite the bullet some time... :P -Liang I will eventually, but what I meant was that since I already have so much SP invested in a specific weapon type (gunnery), I might as well train first for the one that makes best use of my existing skills before I devote even more training time getting into a ship that I'll have to train up a whole new weapon type for. Even worse would be having to train for a shield tanking ship that uses non-gunnery weapons. I think I'd rather shoot myself. Looks like Zealot it is, then Sac, then Amarr CS's. After that I'll worry about the Ishtar. But based on all the armor tanking related SP I have (Hull Upgrades V, Comp skills vary between 2/3/4, Mechanic V), and my nearly 3m sp in gunnery, getting into t2 Amarr laser ships just seems so much easier than anything else at this point. Megathron all t2 > all CS :). I fly all CS except Nighthawk ... imo it isn't worthwhile training them if you don't have at least 2-3 mil SP in leadership. I'm sorry, did I say u could speak ?
Trevor Warps Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:40:00 - [25] Originally by: Liang Nuren And you're telling some poor sod with Drones 5, Scout Drones 5, and Gallente Spec 3-4 to train up the Ishtar when he's within 20 days of a Deimos, and maybe 60 of a Zealot. WTF? -Liang I never said that ... wtf ?
Dreadpilot Roberts REUNI0N Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:44:00 - [26] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Trevor Warps And what secret you know that we dont ? Sentries II ? Very situationnal and hogs up much drone bay space. At 4m in drones you can make the Ishtar shine. Just off the top of my head: Drones 5 Scout Drones 5 Combat Drones 5 Heavy Drones 5 Sentry Drones 5 Repair Drones 5 Electronic Warfare Drone Interfacing 4 Drone Durability 5 Amarr Drone Spec 4 Caldari Drone Spec 4 Gallente Drone Spec 4 Minmatar Drone Spec 4 Drone Navigation 4-5 Drone Sharpshooting 4 THEN you can start worrying about "ship skills" and "support skills" - and you better pray you have really good fitting skills if you aren't going to nano the crap out of it. The ship is very nearly impossible to fit without faction (barring nano). If they nerf nano, the Ishtar will need a boost to fittings. And you're telling some poor sod with Drones 5, Scout Drones 5, and Gallente Spec 3-4 to train up the Ishtar when he's within 20 days of a Deimos, and maybe 60 of a Zealot. WTF? -Liang LOLZ Combat drone 5 Drone Durability 5 Repair Drones 5 ? Those aren't must-haves ... as I've stated in my post above. Those are purely speccing skills. Also Drone Interfacing V and Sentry Drone Interfacing V can be trained while learning how to fly it. Deimos fails in every way possible at being a hac, used to be better than Zealot, but now ... it just ... reeks ... but it can rat serpentis and guristas tho :P I'm sorry, did I say u could speak ?
Derek Sigres Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:51:00 - [27] Originally by: Dreadpilot Roberts Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Trevor Warps And what secret you know that we dont ? Sentries II ? Very situationnal and hogs up much drone bay space. At 4m in drones you can make the Ishtar shine. Just off the top of my head: Drones 5 Scout Drones 5 Combat Drones 5 Heavy Drones 5 Sentry Drones 5 Repair Drones 5 Electronic Warfare Drone Interfacing 4 Drone Durability 5 Amarr Drone Spec 4 Caldari Drone Spec 4 Gallente Drone Spec 4 Minmatar Drone Spec 4 Drone Navigation 4-5 Drone Sharpshooting 4 THEN you can start worrying about "ship skills" and "support skills" - and you better pray you have really good fitting skills if you aren't going to nano the crap out of it. The ship is very nearly impossible to fit without faction (barring nano). If they nerf nano, the Ishtar will need a boost to fittings. And you're telling some poor sod with Drones 5, Scout Drones 5, and Gallente Spec 3-4 to train up the Ishtar when he's within 20 days of a Deimos, and maybe 60 of a Zealot. WTF? -Liang LOLZ Combat drone 5 Drone Durability 5 Repair Drones 5 ? Those aren't must-haves ... as I've stated in my post above. Those are purely speccing skills. Also Drone Interfacing V and Sentry Drone Interfacing V can be trained while learning how to fly it. Deimos fails in every way possible at being a hac, used to be better than Zealot, but now ... it just ... reeks ... but it can rat serpentis and guristas tho :P Well, not many people seem to value flexability as much as min maxing I suppose. Ishtars can be pretty brutal when Nanoed when they start spewing the Ogre II's at you, but if that's all you can use then you're pretty much a one trick pony. I don't KNOW if it takes 6 million SP in drones to be effective with an Ishtar, but it certainly gives you more options than 4 million SP does. My personal vote goes for the Sac or Zealot. The Sac is the better choice in my book but the Zealot looks 65% better.
Trevor Warps Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.26 19:01:00 - [28] Well at 6m in drones you are still only 375m3 versatile.
Darian Edalth Metal Mammoth Industrial	Posted - 2008.03.26 19:33:00 - [29] Go for the Muninn! I use it all the time and to great effect. No one ever expects a muninn, the thing looks just like a T1 version, it's easy to miss and it's a great autocannon raping ship up close. And not very heavily skill intensive. I use a series of 425mm Auto's with ECM drones and a scrambler. And it's cheap to replace as well so you don't feel to bad for loosing it like you might with the Ishy. It's not so much the ishy, it's the 50+ million in T2 drones. - Darian Edalth, CEO. "Miklos Atreides > anyone have a good taranis fit that doesn't involve buying a crow?"
Darian Edalth Metal Mammoth Industrial	Posted - 2008.03.26 19:52:00 - [30] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Darian Edalth Go for the Muninn! I use it all the time and to great effect. No one ever expects a muninn, the thing looks just like a T1 version, it's easy to miss and it's a great autocannon raping ship up close. And not very heavily skill intensive. I use a series of 425mm Auto's with ECM drones and a scrambler. And it's cheap to replace as well so you don't feel to bad for loosing it like you might with the Ishy. It's not so much the ishy, it's the 50+ million in T2 drones. Well, yeah, there's that. Flexibility comes at a price.... heh. Anyway, I fly the Muninn as well, and it can really dish out the damage up close. But I really wouldn't ever recommend the ship to anyone for anything. :-/ -Liang See? No one ever suspects the Muninn. You think you got a rupture most of the time and then, oh no's! Pain! Seriously however, it's a very versatile ship and it's cheap enough you don't miss it when it pops. I keep a sixpack of them in my hanger at any time, all setup the same way. For when I get the pvp itch. - Darian Edalth, CEO. "Miklos Atreides > anyone have a good taranis fit that doesn't involve buying a crow?"



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