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Sean Faust Point of No Return	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:40:00 - [1] I fly around with a group of players who all pilot HACs, recons, and the occasional command ship. Mostly they're al Minnie/Caldari HAC pilots in cerbs and vagas, with at least one guy I know who flies a sac, and a couple nighthawk/vulture pilots. I can fly both Amarr and Gallente Battlecruisers and can fit t2 Gallente guns but not t2 Amarr guns. I'm training for a HAC and have narrowed it down to Deimos, Ishtar, or Zealot (sac involves too much time invested in missile skills that will come way later down the line). Which one would be the best one to complement the ships of the people I run with? I'm closest to a Deimos because I can already use t2 med blasters and have decent nav skills. Ishtar would involve having to train up Heavy Drones to 5, and Zealot would involve getting their cruisers from 3-5 and training for Amarr t2 guns. So, knowing all of this... and based on the facts that the Deimos would be the shortest time to get into, and Zealot the longest, which one should I train for first to roll with my mates?
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:49:00 - [2] IMO: Deimos (closest) Sacrilege (best HAC) Zealot (good range) Ishtar (WTFOMGBBQ skill intensive) I've got around about 6M in drones right now, and I'm only just starting to make the Ishtar shine. I've your drone skills aren't superb, I'd say the Deimos is a better bet. The Sac and Zealot are both better choices than the Ishtar and Deimos respectively. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Tronjay Phantasmal Collective Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:50:00 - [3] I would recommend the Ishtar for moving gangs and the Deimos for close range combat (gatecamping).
Taguchi Hiroko Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:50:00 - [4] Deimos is a pretty mediocre HAC. Go for the Ishtar. Nano Ishtar is great. Zealot after the 5th turrent boost is pretty decent now.
Sean Faust Point of No Return	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:52:00 - [5] I have just shy of 3m SP in gunnery (mostly aimed specifically at blasters), and about 900k in drones. Guess that means the Ishtar is a LONG way off. As far as the sac goes, I don't even have 200k in missiles yet =/
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:54:00 - [6] Originally by: Sean Faust I have just shy of 3m SP in gunnery (mostly aimed specifically at blasters), and about 900k in drones. Guess that means the Ishtar is a LONG way off. As far as the sac goes, I don't even have 200k in missiles yet =/ Yeah, with 900K in drones, I'd say you're far better off in another HAC. The HAM skills will be far faster to train up than drones... because most missile support skills don't apply to HAMs. :) -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Sean Faust Point of No Return	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:55:00 - [7] Originally by: Taguchi Hiroko Deimos is a pretty mediocre HAC. Go for the Ishtar. Nano Ishtar is great. Zealot after the 5th turrent boost is pretty decent now. Yeah, they warned me about the Deimos, saying that because of its poor range it doesn't get the chance to use its insane DPS all that much unless you use null and then you'd be better off in an Amarr ship with pulses. Still, it can't be COMPLETELY useless and I already have so much SP invested in gunnery, all I gotta do is get gallente cruiser to 5 and I'm in it.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:56:00 - [8] Originally by: Sean Faust Yeah, they warned me about the Deimos, saying that because of its poor range it doesn't get the chance to use its insane DPS all that much unless you use null and then you'd be better off in an Amarr ship with pulses. Still, it can't be COMPLETELY useless and I already have so much SP invested in gunnery, all I gotta do is get gallente cruiser to 5 and I'm in it. The Zealot is a better choice for the gangs that you're in. But you can always fit rails to your Deimos... -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Sean Faust Point of No Return	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:59:00 - [9] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Sean Faust Yeah, they warned me about the Deimos, saying that because of its poor range it doesn't get the chance to use its insane DPS all that much unless you use null and then you'd be better off in an Amarr ship with pulses. Still, it can't be COMPLETELY useless and I already have so much SP invested in gunnery, all I gotta do is get gallente cruiser to 5 and I'm in it. The Zealot is a better choice for the gangs that you're in. But you can always fit rails to your Deimos... -Liang I suppose you could do that, and I guess there are ways to make it work, but fitting rails to a ship that was obviously designed from the ground up specifically for blasters just seems so . . WRONG =/
Taguchi Hiroko Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.26 17:02:00 - [10] Edited by: Taguchi Hiroko on 26/03/2008 17:03:48 Originally by: Sean Faust I have just shy of 3m SP in gunnery (mostly aimed specifically at blasters), and about 900k in drones. Guess that means the Ishtar is a LONG way off. As far as the sac goes, I don't even have 200k in missiles yet =/ I took the same specilization route as you thinking I will fly Deimos til the end of my career. There are many problems with the Deimos which makes it a pretty average if not sub-standard HAC: 1. it is slow 2. it has cap problems for sustained combat 3. it is almost always primaried in gang fights because of its average tankability, and dps. 4. very expensive to replace, especially if you want to fit neutrons, which often requires pg rigs. 5. it requires very specific situations to shine, namely, your target has to be close, and has to be slow moving if not close within web range (which implies for Deimos, a web is necessary). 6. when your fc calls primaries, half the time that primary is outside of your web range. You will be deprived of many killmails because of this. anyway, I flew deimos and little else for about 1 year, and I can tell you there are better things to specialize in, like ishtar, or vagabond. Both of which are just pwn, and there are very good reasons why they are the most popular HAC's in eve. I should have trained for them in the beginning.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 17:02:00 - [11] Originally by: Sean Faust I suppose you could do that, and I guess there are ways to make it work, but fitting rails to a ship that was obviously designed from the ground up specifically for blasters just seems so . . WRONG =/ I'm not saying that it isn't. ;-) I'm saying that you're going to have to make a choice: - Blaster Deimos (+short train, -risk to dealing damage) - Rail Deimos (+short train, -damage amount and looking stupid) - Ishtar (-really long train, +good choice) - Zealot (-longer train, +range and damage) - Sacrilege (-longer train, +best HAC for the job) Pick the one that suits you. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Trevor Warps Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.26 17:56:00 - [12] About the sac, well yeah it looks decent and stuff, but is it really that good ? I mean, the only one i fought poped fairly quick (to my hyperion, guess that figures) and failed to pop the crow that walked by in its web range. I don't see how it is better than the zealot, especially now.
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:01:00 - [13] Originally by: Trevor Warps About the sac, well yeah it looks decent and stuff, but is it really that good ? I mean, the only one i fought poped fairly quick (to my hyperion, guess that figures) and failed to pop the crow that walked by in its web range. I don't see how it is better than the zealot, especially now. It can be fitted to go reasonably fast + it uses missiles
Sean Faust Point of No Return	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:06:00 - [14] So what I'm basically getting here is that the only reasons worth training Gallente cruiser to V are for the Phobos and maybe, way way way later on down the line, after I have more SP invested in drones than my current total SP (almost 8 million), getting into an Ishtar. That sorta sucks. Maybe I'll put that 20-day train off for another time then and work more on my Amarr skills to get into a Zealot and then a Sacrilege. Some time ago I made a goal for myself about eventually being able to fly both Gallente and Amarr HACs and Command ships. I have no desire to ever train up Caldari except to fly ECM ships, and there are too many Minmatar/Vaga pilots (though hardly any Sleipnir pilots) in the groups I roll with. Since the use of blasters is too situational, I think I'm going to focus solely on Amarr, until I have enough SP invested in drones to go for the Ishtar.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:11:00 - [15] Originally by: Sean Faust Since the use of blasters is too situational, I think I'm going to focus solely on Amarr, until I have enough SP invested in drones to go for the Ishtar. If you never focus on the drones, you'll never get there. Gotta bite the bullet some time... :P You can be a (barely) competent Ishtar pilot with only about 3.5-4.5M SP in Drones... but you won't really make it shine that way. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Dreadpilot Roberts REUNI0N Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:22:00 - [16] Originally by: Liang Nuren IMO: Deimos (closest) Sacrilege (best HAC) Zealot (good range) Ishtar (WTFOMGBBQ skill intensive) I've got around about 6M in drones right now, and I'm only just starting to make the Ishtar shine. I've your drone skills aren't superb, I'd say the Deimos is a better bet. The Sac and Zealot are both better choices than the Ishtar and Deimos respectively. -Liang this = bogus You just need t2 Ogre II's, drone interfacing IV and good navigation skills and good support skills to fly the ishtar. Drone interfacing V is a plus ... though you can train that at a later time as a specialization. Also t2 sentries are great ... but then again that's a specialization also. I say get your navigation skills up and support skills, and train for t2 ogres then you can choose to spec your drone skills or go for BS with t2 guns. It's either that or train for a nano-zealot with t2 HP IIs ... provided you already have decent gunnery skills already. P.S. all relative support skills should be at lvl 4 at least. I'm sorry, did I say u could speak ?
Sean Faust Point of No Return	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:23:00 - [17] Edited by: Sean Faust on 26/03/2008 18:24:44 Originally by: Liang Nuren If you never focus on the drones, you'll never get there. Gotta bite the bullet some time... :P -Liang I will eventually, but what I meant was that since I already have so much SP invested in a specific weapon typ (gunnery), I might as well train first for the one that makes best use of my existing skills before I devote even more training time getting into a ship that I'll have to train up a whole new weapon type for. Even worse would be having to train for a shield tanking ship that uses non-gunnery weapons. I think I'd rather shoot myself. Looks like Zealot it is, then Sac, then Amarr CS's. After that I'll worry about the Ishtar. But based on all the armor tanking related SP I have (Hull Upgrades V, Comp skills vary between 2/3/4, Mechanic V), and my nearly 3m sp in gunnery, getting into t2 Amarr laser ships just seems so much easier than anything else at this point.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:24:00 - [18] Originally by: Dreadpilot Roberts this = bogus You just need t2 Ogre II's, drone interfacing IV and good navigation skills and good support skills to fly the ishtar. Drone interfacing V is a plus ... though you can train that at a later time as a specialization. Also t2 sentries are great ... but then again that's a specialization also. I'd say that it's bogus to say that's "all you need". The Ishtar is a good HAC because it has versatility. If you don't have the skills for said versatility, you're better off in another ship. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Trevor Warps Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:24:00 - [19] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Sean Faust Since the use of blasters is too situational, I think I'm going to focus solely on Amarr, until I have enough SP invested in drones to go for the Ishtar. If you never focus on the drones, you'll never get there. Gotta bite the bullet some time... :P You can be a (barely) competent Ishtar pilot with only about 3.5-4.5M SP in Drones... but you won't really make it shine that way. -Liang Well at 4m you got hvy drones 5 and interfacing 5 and supports to 4. I dont think 5% less travel time or optimal will make the difference between shining or not.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:25:00 - [20] Originally by: Trevor Warps Well at 4m you got hvy drones 5 and interfacing 5 and supports to 4. I dont think 5% less travel time or optimal will make the difference between shining or not. See above. -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Trevor Warps Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:29:00 - [21] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Trevor Warps Well at 4m you got hvy drones 5 and interfacing 5 and supports to 4. I dont think 5% less travel time or optimal will make the difference between shining or not. See above. And what secret you know that we dont ? Sentries II ? Very situationnal and hogs up much drone bay space. At 4m in drones you can make the Ishtar shine.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:37:00 - [22] Originally by: Trevor Warps And what secret you know that we dont ? Sentries II ? Very situationnal and hogs up much drone bay space. At 4m in drones you can make the Ishtar shine. Just off the top of my head: Drones 5 Scout Drones 5 Combat Drones 5 Heavy Drones 5 Sentry Drones 5 Repair Drones 5 Electronic Warfare Drone Interfacing 4 Drone Durability 5 Amarr Drone Spec 4 Caldari Drone Spec 4 Gallente Drone Spec 4 Minmatar Drone Spec 4 Drone Navigation 4-5 Drone Sharpshooting 4 THEN you can start worrying about "ship skills" and "support skills" - and you better pray you have really good fitting skills if you aren't going to nano the crap out of it. The ship is very nearly impossible to fit without faction (barring nano). If they nerf nano, the Ishtar will need a boost to fittings. And you're telling some poor sod with Drones 5, Scout Drones 5, and Gallente Spec 3-4 to train up the Ishtar when he's within 20 days of a Deimos, and maybe 60 of a Zealot. WTF? -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
EvilSpork Invicta.	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:38:00 - [23] Edited by: EvilSpork on 26/03/2008 18:46:11 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Sean Faust I have just shy of 3m SP in gunnery (mostly aimed specifically at blasters), and about 900k in drones. Guess that means the Ishtar is a LONG way off. As far as the sac goes, I don't even have 200k in missiles yet =/ Yeah, with 900K in drones, I'd say you're far better off in another HAC. The HAM skills will be far faster to train up than drones... because most missile support skills don't apply to HAMs. :) -Liang agreed. sacrilege is AWESOME, and the HAM skills arent too bad. but only guided missile precision and... one other do NOT apply to rocket/HAMs/tops, the rest do. BUT there arent as many missile skills as gunnery. its a toss up, but the sacrilege is an awesome ship. i do want to break the ship and have a sacrilege with a 6th low slot.. but that would be TOO insane though edit: get into a deimos and try it, and if you dont like it by the time you get HAC to lvl 4, start training for a zealot? its an idea... i have to say, after flying amarr HACs a bit now, im more or less decided to spec in them. as a side note: i was about to cross train for an ishtar. now im not. i see what you mean about skills... too many.. gah... i like my lazors
Dreadpilot Roberts REUNI0N Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:39:00 - [24] Originally by: Sean Faust Edited by: Sean Faust on 26/03/2008 18:28:11 Originally by: Liang Nuren If you never focus on the drones, you'll never get there. Gotta bite the bullet some time... :P -Liang I will eventually, but what I meant was that since I already have so much SP invested in a specific weapon type (gunnery), I might as well train first for the one that makes best use of my existing skills before I devote even more training time getting into a ship that I'll have to train up a whole new weapon type for. Even worse would be having to train for a shield tanking ship that uses non-gunnery weapons. I think I'd rather shoot myself. Looks like Zealot it is, then Sac, then Amarr CS's. After that I'll worry about the Ishtar. But based on all the armor tanking related SP I have (Hull Upgrades V, Comp skills vary between 2/3/4, Mechanic V), and my nearly 3m sp in gunnery, getting into t2 Amarr laser ships just seems so much easier than anything else at this point. Megathron all t2 > all CS :). I fly all CS except Nighthawk ... imo it isn't worthwhile training them if you don't have at least 2-3 mil SP in leadership. I'm sorry, did I say u could speak ?
Trevor Warps Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:40:00 - [25] Originally by: Liang Nuren And you're telling some poor sod with Drones 5, Scout Drones 5, and Gallente Spec 3-4 to train up the Ishtar when he's within 20 days of a Deimos, and maybe 60 of a Zealot. WTF? -Liang I never said that ... wtf ?
Dreadpilot Roberts REUNI0N Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:44:00 - [26] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Trevor Warps And what secret you know that we dont ? Sentries II ? Very situationnal and hogs up much drone bay space. At 4m in drones you can make the Ishtar shine. Just off the top of my head: Drones 5 Scout Drones 5 Combat Drones 5 Heavy Drones 5 Sentry Drones 5 Repair Drones 5 Electronic Warfare Drone Interfacing 4 Drone Durability 5 Amarr Drone Spec 4 Caldari Drone Spec 4 Gallente Drone Spec 4 Minmatar Drone Spec 4 Drone Navigation 4-5 Drone Sharpshooting 4 THEN you can start worrying about "ship skills" and "support skills" - and you better pray you have really good fitting skills if you aren't going to nano the crap out of it. The ship is very nearly impossible to fit without faction (barring nano). If they nerf nano, the Ishtar will need a boost to fittings. And you're telling some poor sod with Drones 5, Scout Drones 5, and Gallente Spec 3-4 to train up the Ishtar when he's within 20 days of a Deimos, and maybe 60 of a Zealot. WTF? -Liang LOLZ Combat drone 5 Drone Durability 5 Repair Drones 5 ? Those aren't must-haves ... as I've stated in my post above. Those are purely speccing skills. Also Drone Interfacing V and Sentry Drone Interfacing V can be trained while learning how to fly it. Deimos fails in every way possible at being a hac, used to be better than Zealot, but now ... it just ... reeks ... but it can rat serpentis and guristas tho :P I'm sorry, did I say u could speak ?
Derek Sigres Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:51:00 - [27] Originally by: Dreadpilot Roberts Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Trevor Warps And what secret you know that we dont ? Sentries II ? Very situationnal and hogs up much drone bay space. At 4m in drones you can make the Ishtar shine. Just off the top of my head: Drones 5 Scout Drones 5 Combat Drones 5 Heavy Drones 5 Sentry Drones 5 Repair Drones 5 Electronic Warfare Drone Interfacing 4 Drone Durability 5 Amarr Drone Spec 4 Caldari Drone Spec 4 Gallente Drone Spec 4 Minmatar Drone Spec 4 Drone Navigation 4-5 Drone Sharpshooting 4 THEN you can start worrying about "ship skills" and "support skills" - and you better pray you have really good fitting skills if you aren't going to nano the crap out of it. The ship is very nearly impossible to fit without faction (barring nano). If they nerf nano, the Ishtar will need a boost to fittings. And you're telling some poor sod with Drones 5, Scout Drones 5, and Gallente Spec 3-4 to train up the Ishtar when he's within 20 days of a Deimos, and maybe 60 of a Zealot. WTF? -Liang LOLZ Combat drone 5 Drone Durability 5 Repair Drones 5 ? Those aren't must-haves ... as I've stated in my post above. Those are purely speccing skills. Also Drone Interfacing V and Sentry Drone Interfacing V can be trained while learning how to fly it. Deimos fails in every way possible at being a hac, used to be better than Zealot, but now ... it just ... reeks ... but it can rat serpentis and guristas tho :P Well, not many people seem to value flexability as much as min maxing I suppose. Ishtars can be pretty brutal when Nanoed when they start spewing the Ogre II's at you, but if that's all you can use then you're pretty much a one trick pony. I don't KNOW if it takes 6 million SP in drones to be effective with an Ishtar, but it certainly gives you more options than 4 million SP does. My personal vote goes for the Sac or Zealot. The Sac is the better choice in my book but the Zealot looks 65% better.
Trevor Warps Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.26 19:01:00 - [28] Well at 6m in drones you are still only 375m3 versatile.
Darian Edalth Metal Mammoth Industrial	Posted - 2008.03.26 19:33:00 - [29] Go for the Muninn! I use it all the time and to great effect. No one ever expects a muninn, the thing looks just like a T1 version, it's easy to miss and it's a great autocannon raping ship up close. And not very heavily skill intensive. I use a series of 425mm Auto's with ECM drones and a scrambler. And it's cheap to replace as well so you don't feel to bad for loosing it like you might with the Ishy. It's not so much the ishy, it's the 50+ million in T2 drones. - Darian Edalth, CEO. "Miklos Atreides > anyone have a good taranis fit that doesn't involve buying a crow?"
Darian Edalth Metal Mammoth Industrial	Posted - 2008.03.26 19:52:00 - [30] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Darian Edalth Go for the Muninn! I use it all the time and to great effect. No one ever expects a muninn, the thing looks just like a T1 version, it's easy to miss and it's a great autocannon raping ship up close. And not very heavily skill intensive. I use a series of 425mm Auto's with ECM drones and a scrambler. And it's cheap to replace as well so you don't feel to bad for loosing it like you might with the Ishy. It's not so much the ishy, it's the 50+ million in T2 drones. Well, yeah, there's that. Flexibility comes at a price.... heh. Anyway, I fly the Muninn as well, and it can really dish out the damage up close. But I really wouldn't ever recommend the ship to anyone for anything. :-/ -Liang See? No one ever suspects the Muninn. You think you got a rupture most of the time and then, oh no's! Pain! Seriously however, it's a very versatile ship and it's cheap enough you don't miss it when it pops. I keep a sixpack of them in my hanger at any time, all setup the same way. For when I get the pvp itch. - Darian Edalth, CEO. "Miklos Atreides > anyone have a good taranis fit that doesn't involve buying a crow?"
Shemsu Mordus Dead Gnoll's Eye Socket	Posted - 2008.03.26 20:19:00 - [31] Originally by: Sean Faust Edited by: Sean Faust on 26/03/2008 18:28:11 Originally by: Liang Nuren If you never focus on the drones, you'll never get there. Gotta bite the bullet some time... :P -Liang I will eventually, but what I meant was that since I already have so much SP invested in a specific weapon type (gunnery), I might as well train first for the one that makes best use of my existing skills before I devote even more training time getting into a ship that I'll have to train up a whole new weapon type for. Even worse would be having to train for a shield tanking ship that uses non-gunnery weapons. I think I'd rather shoot myself. Looks like Zealot it is, then Sac, then Amarr CS's. After that I'll worry about the Ishtar. But based on all the armor tanking related SP I have (Hull Upgrades V, Comp skills vary between 2/3/4, Mechanic V), and my nearly 3m sp in gunnery, getting into t2 Amarr laser ships just seems so much easier than anything else at this point. Plus, honestly the Zealot pwns. It is a great HAC. Not the fastest for roaming gangs (never flown a nanoed Zealot though...), so if you have to run, it gets dicey, but the range is great, maybe not alpha DPS, but with 30KM optimal w/Scorch you are laying the hurt early and hard. Vaga/Ishtar are a different kind of fun, but the Zealot is a great HAC.
Kakasheri Perkone	Posted - 2008.03.26 20:27:00 - [32] i perma tanked a megathron in my sac. Nuff said imo.
Kruel Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.03.26 20:36:00 - [33] For roaming gangs I'd suggest a Zealot due to good range and instant damage. Though every gang needs a tackler too, so the Deimos could fill that role.
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.03.26 22:30:00 - [34] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 26/03/2008 22:34:35 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 26/03/2008 22:32:42 Originally by: Darian Edalth See? No one ever suspects the Muninn. You think you got a rupture most of the time and then, oh no's! Pain! Funny, I use the scanner now and then and it displays ship types. Upon seeing Munnins I go all crazy 'with, oh, Munnin, look, there's a Munnin on scan!!!' but something bad always happens. Last time I met one I was in a Cyclone specifically refit for webbing (to catch a very annoying Ishtar) and a Munnin landed on me. Meh. He ran away a few seconds before a ship with actual points arrived and tackled him, and I missed the final bump I see them so rarely. Anyway, to get back on topic, I'd suggest a Zealot, or, better yet, Sacriledge. They can both go fast and have a semblance of a tank, plus don't rely on weapons without tracking (and HAMs aren't that hard to train for) and very solid damage. Note, though, that the standard way to fit a Sac is relatively expensive. Also, if you want to go the gallente route, Ishtar is best, but I would prefer you to fly a Diemost, for relatively easy and nice loot plus T2 salvage. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Helios Hyperion Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.27 00:14:00 - [35] The deimos is my prefered hac, however, with the new boost to the zealot, i'd have to say that it may be a better bet for you, also taking into account your basic drone skills, the zealot doesn't use drones and if you already have t2 med blasters, i'll assume you have fair support skills as well. Head for the Zealot imo. using scorch ammo and a nice gank/tank fit, with a tracking computer, you'll make nano-hac pilots cry
CmdoColin Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.27 01:39:00 - [36] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 26/03/2008 22:34:35 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 26/03/2008 22:32:42 Originally by: Darian Edalth See? No one ever suspects the Muninn. You think you got a rupture most of the time and then, oh no's! Pain! Funny, I use the scanner now and then and it displays ship types. They upgraded the scanner to show more than hull type? I thought it just showed what the ship was called and the hull. A Muninn on the scanner would show up as "Darian Edalth's Muninn" Hull "Rupture", if he named it "Darian Edalth's Rupture" How do you tell? Or am I being thick again? Am I renaming my ~~Zealot~~ Omen to sommat sensible then? Audita et altera pars
Taguchi Hiroko Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.27 01:44:00 - [37] Originally by: Sean Faust So what I'm basically getting here is that the only reasons worth training Gallente cruiser to V are for the Phobos and maybe, way way way later on down the line, after I have more SP invested in drones than my current total SP (almost 8 million), getting into an Ishtar. That sorta sucks. Maybe I'll put that 20-day train off for another time then and work more on my Amarr skills to get into a Zealot and then a Sacrilege. Some time ago I made a goal for myself about eventually being able to fly both Gallente and Amarr HACs and Command ships. I have no desire to ever train up Caldari except to fly ECM ships, and there are too many Minmatar/Vaga pilots (though hardly any Sleipnir pilots) in the groups I roll with. Since the use of blasters is too situational, I think I'm going to focus solely on Amarr, until I have enough SP invested in drones to go for the Ishtar. BTW, if u like blasters, train large blaster cannon II's. You will love flying a neutron tri mark tanked megathron in a remote repping turtle gang. These gangs are indestructable and neutron blasters rip people apart very nicely.
Casino Alkasar Infinite Possibilities Corporation The Colbert Nation	Posted - 2008.03.27 01:49:00 - [38] the ihstar is sure a nice hac, and you can pump lots of isk and Sp into it to make it a nice ship which can even wressle BS if the pilots are newbs, but its more a statussymbol. You can run missions faster with a raven & last longer with drones in a dominix in pvp. On the other hand most skills but the Cruiser V and the Hac skill will push you forward a good chunk to fly the big ships. For outofthebox Hac fun i would fly a Gank*Deimos _________________ itze mine Rock¦n roll
Ambien Torca Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.27 02:02:00 - [39] Good reason not to fly Deimos is simply that you will die. Nanogangs usually are made so that you can disengage if things start go wrong and Deimos simply can¦t do that. Also like it has been said in this thread blaster range is fairly bad so in bigger fight you will spend too much time just MWD:ing around. Muninn is not much better, I would recommend flying Thorax and Rupture instead of the T2 version for these roles. And no, HAC:s are not cheap even less pricy ones.
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.03.27 03:54:00 - [40] Originally by: CmdoColin They upgraded the scanner to show more than hull type? I thought it just showed what the ship was called and the hull. A Muninn on the scanner would show up as "Darian Edalth's Muninn" Hull "Rupture", if he named it "Darian Edalth's Rupture" How do you tell? Or am I being thick again? Am I renaming my ~~Zealot~~ Omen to sommat sensible then? It gives you ship name and ship type. I don't know how anyone could not know that. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Sean Faust Point of No Return	Posted - 2008.03.27 13:00:00 - [41] Funny enough, 3 of the friends I fly with, who are even younger chars than myself, are training specifically to get into an Ishtar. I wonder what a group of 3-4 Ishtars running around together would do...
ry ry StateCorp Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.27 13:03:00 - [42] Originally by: Sean Faust Funny enough, 3 of the friends I fly with, who are even younger chars than myself, are training specifically to get into an Ishtar. I wonder what a group of 3-4 Ishtars running around together would do... gank the hell out of idiot ratters mainly. :)
Sean Faust Point of No Return	Posted - 2008.03.27 13:23:00 - [43] When I first came to EVE I rolled Gallente cause of the uber damage output of blasters, not realizing how big of a price it came at, and how impractical it is. Eventually 5 of my old guildmates from WoW who I convinced to come over to EVE did, and 4 of them made Gallente characters as well for the same reasons I did. Now they're all like "DRONES RULE! WANT ISHTAR NOW!" BTW the one who didn't roll Gallente made a Minnie char and he's training for a Vaga.
Delyniel Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.28 16:00:00 - [44] You don't need crazy drone sp for nanotar. I only got around 1mill sp in drones, using upto t2 meds. I'm flying with a nanogang and use t1 bouncers, i'm usually up in top 3 among vagas and nanotars with t2 bouncers in damage dealt. So I will say an Ishtar is a good choice even if you don't have much sp in drones.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.28 16:41:00 - [45] Originally by: Delyniel You don't need crazy drone sp for nanotar. I only got around 1mill sp in drones, using upto t2 meds. I'm flying with a nanogang and use t1 bouncers, i'm usually up in top 3 among vagas and nanotars with t2 bouncers in damage dealt. So I will say an Ishtar is a good choice even if you don't have much sp in drones. This is like saying that you don't need t2 guns on your Deimos, because it deals more damage than a Vagabond using barrage fighting at 120% falloff. GG. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Eneela M University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.28 17:00:00 - [46] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Delyniel You don't need crazy drone sp for nanotar. I only got around 1mill sp in drones, using upto t2 meds. I'm flying with a nanogang and use t1 bouncers, i'm usually up in top 3 among vagas and nanotars with t2 bouncers in damage dealt. So I will say an Ishtar is a good choice even if you don't have much sp in drones. This is like saying that you don't need t2 guns on your Deimos, because it deals more damage than a Vagabond using barrage fighting at 120% falloff. GG. -Liang the guy obviously does well with the sp he has, I would rather have fun in a ship I want to fly while I up my skills than let it collect dust waiting for lvl 5. There's always real life battle skills to learn!
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.28 17:21:00 - [47] Originally by: Eneela M the guy obviously does well with the sp he has, I would rather have fun in a ship I want to fly while I up my skills than let it collect dust waiting for lvl 5. There's always real life battle skills to learn! No, he does well compared to those he flies with. As with all things in eve, quality counts. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.28 18:23:00 - [48] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Eneela M the guy obviously does well with the sp he has, I would rather have fun in a ship I want to fly while I up my skills than let it collect dust waiting for lvl 5. There's always real life battle skills to learn! No, he does well compared to those he flies with. As with all things in eve, quality counts. -Liang liang is correct, i am training for my nanoisthar atm and have 3mil sp in drones but i still only use mine for missioning untill i have a little more flexibility (as well as t2 shield skills for that hefty buffer ) that being said, i also don't mission much, so my isthar is just waiting till i can make it awesome. despite what people say, deimos can be a TON of fun so long as you pay attention. yes you will die, but its almost like a large taranis . sounds like you would enjoy a zealot as well. i don't fly one, but from what i've seen they can be sick little ships. i'd think the zealot would be more skill intensive than the deimos though.
Deschenus Maximus Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.03.28 19:46:00 - [49] This thread makes me want to train for the Ishtar to solo in... Curse ain't what it used to be
Arcord Rytiri Lva	Posted - 2008.03.28 20:35:00 - [50] Originally by: Mr Ignitious Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Eneela M the guy obviously does well with the sp he has, I would rather have fun in a ship I want to fly while I up my skills than let it collect dust waiting for lvl 5. There's always real life battle skills to learn! No, he does well compared to those he flies with. As with all things in eve, quality counts. -Liang liang is correct, i am training for my nanoisthar atm and have 3mil sp in drones but i still only use mine for missioning untill i have a little more flexibility (as well as t2 shield skills for that hefty buffer ) that being said, i also don't mission much, so my isthar is just waiting till i can make it awesome. despite what people say, deimos can be a TON of fun so long as you pay attention. yes you will die, but its almost like a large taranis . sounds like you would enjoy a zealot as well. i don't fly one, but from what i've seen they can be sick little ships. i'd think the zealot would be more skill intensive than the deimos though. i have to disagree tbh...having around 3mil SP in drones i can say that my ishtar can be really awesome...you dont have to have 6mil in drones for ishtar 'to be allowed to bring it to pvp and be good at it' thats a bullsh1t'. If you guys need that much SP to make the ship good, then you are poor pilots! on the other hand, i dont have T2 sentries so if you want them, it will inevitable lead to high sp investment as for which hac to go for...go for all of them! i specced in gallente hacs and commands now finally trained up amarr cruiser V and getting decen laser skills and have to say that those ships rock...zealot really does have fitting issues, but they can be overcome(i tend to passive tank deimos even zealot so its not that big of a deal), sac is...well i dont fly it but i fought it and its a *****;) really prolly the best hac...btw amarr commands are imho the best commands ingame, damnation by far and abso- its a matter of taste but being able to fly both astarte and abso is a nice combination for various situation, each one has its role gallente hacs are far from useless, as said ishtar shines among hacs and you dont have to necessarily nano it, i actually prefer to fit it the old fashionable way with awesome tank while havin really decent damage output with my T2 ogres. deimos is your ship of choice when having a small gang, put a plate on it and some mafs and you will be on the top of damage dealers most of the time... the choice is yours...if i were you, i'd go for gallente hacs first(now meaning deimos) as i did...you wont regret it;) cheers
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.28 20:46:00 - [51] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus This thread makes me want to train for the Ishtar to solo in... Curse ain't what it used to be You're in for a rude awakening if you think that the Ishtar even close to compares to the pwnmobile that the Curse was. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Bahhs Deep Aliastra	Posted - 2008.03.30 01:55:00 - [52] A well skilled competent pilot can give you a real nasty surprise with a Blaster Eagle setup with a wicked passive tank. Might only get about 250-300 DPS or so though. But it can tank most ships solo with a few exceptions
Tai Paktu	Posted - 2008.03.30 02:06:00 - [53] A Deimos will melt face if it gets in close. It will also probably die a lot. But then again, you're in a blasterboat so you really only have 2 options. 1) Shoot the living **** out of your target, win and look uber 2) Die horribly and look like a noob. ______ http://eve-files.com/sig/TaiPaktu/sig3.PNG
Wardeneo BLL Wise Guys Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.30 02:24:00 - [54] Originally by: EvilSpork Edited by: EvilSpork on 26/03/2008 18:46:11 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Sean Faust I have just shy of 3m SP in gunnery (mostly aimed specifically at blasters), and about 900k in drones. Guess that means the Ishtar is a LONG way off. As far as the sac goes, I don't even have 200k in missiles yet =/ Yeah, with 900K in drones, I'd say you're far better off in another HAC. The HAM skills will be far faster to train up than drones... because most missile support skills don't apply to HAMs. :) -Liang agreed. sacrilege is AWESOME, and the HAM skills arent too bad. but only guided missile precision and... one other do NOT apply to rocket/HAMs/tops. 1 u say..... hmmm... Bomb deployment FOF Defenders Standard missles adn spec skill Heavy missles adn spec skill Cruise missles adn spec skill there a few more thant dont apply 2 rockets/HAMS/TORPS m8 :p wardeneo If brute force doesn't work..... your not using enough :)
Wardeneo	Posted - 2008.03.30 02:28:00 - [55] Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: Dreadpilot Roberts Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Trevor Warps And what secret you know that we dont ? Sentries II ? Very situationnal and hogs up much drone bay space. At 4m in drones you can make the Ishtar shine. Just off the top of my head: Drones 5 Scout Drones 5 Combat Drones 5 Heavy Drones 5 Sentry Drones 5 Repair Drones 5 Electronic Warfare Drone Interfacing 4 Drone Durability 5 Amarr Drone Spec 4 Caldari Drone Spec 4 Gallente Drone Spec 4 Minmatar Drone Spec 4 Drone Navigation 4-5 Drone Sharpshooting 4 THEN you can start worrying about "ship skills" and "support skills" - and you better pray you have really good fitting skills if you aren't going to nano the crap out of it. The ship is very nearly impossible to fit without faction (barring nano). If they nerf nano, the Ishtar will need a boost to fittings. And you're telling some poor sod with Drones 5, Scout Drones 5, and Gallente Spec 3-4 to train up the Ishtar when he's within 20 days of a Deimos, and maybe 60 of a Zealot. WTF? -Liang My personal vote goes for the Sac or Zealot. The Sac is the better choice in my book but the Zealot looks 65% better. you obviously play in in classic vertion :p--> SAC in trin graphics is much sexier than zealot --> allthough both are best looking hacs in game imo, allthough i like the ishtars "smiley face" :) ) wardeneo If brute force doesn't work..... your not using enough :)
DHBshrpshot Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.03.30 15:53:00 - [56] The deimos is a great ship. Fitted with neutrons it will be n the top of killmail lists the majority of the time. You just have to know what you are doing who you are fighting. It has its role and should be mainly used for small to medium sized roaming gangs, using in fleet ops is pretty dumb. On the other hand if you have decent drone skills the ishtar is very versatile and cab be fit many diffeerent ways depending on your fighting style or the situation. I have both of these ships and have had my deimos for about 3 months and have not lost it. Botht the ships are great and tbh the deimos does not have all that bad of cap. Fly which ever one you like they are both awsome.
Deschenus Maximus Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.03.30 19:41:00 - [57] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Deschenus Maximus This thread makes me want to train for the Ishtar to solo in... Curse ain't what it used to be You're in for a rude awakening if you think that the Ishtar even close to compares to the pwnmobile that the Curse was. -Liang I know it probably isn't, but surely it's better than what the Curse now is.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.30 20:05:00 - [58] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus I know it probably isn't, but surely it's better than what the Curse now is. I dunno. Curse vs Vagabond: Curse Ishtar vs Vagabond: Vagabond Curse vs Ishtar: Curse ... The Ishtar is a great ship, but it's a great ship if you accept its limitations... and it actually has quite a few. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Deschenus Maximus Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.03.30 21:48:00 - [59] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Deschenus Maximus I know it probably isn't, but surely it's better than what the Curse now is. I dunno. Curse vs Vagabond: Curse Ishtar vs Vagabond: Vagabond Curse vs Ishtar: Curse ... The Ishtar is a great ship, but it's a great ship if you accept its limitations... and it actually has quite a few. -Liang Good to know.
Kelio Rift FREE GATES DeStInY.	Posted - 2008.03.30 23:39:00 - [60] Well Hello there fellow POD pilots! I fly a Deimos, mostly for NPC pwn, but sometimes I take it out to do some PVP, gangstyle to be precise... Once we had a great battle (a losing one, but very great fun it was). We had tacklers and dictor, so I didn't put up a scrambler... why put up one if someone else is doing the 'dirty work'? Selected a Zealot, at 17km and ate him. He tanked aprox 4,7K damage from me b4 he went down, then I became primary and after more than 8K damage I went down. The Ishtar is very versatile, you can vary the fitting. The Deimos is a Special HAC, you can fit it only one way, for Blasters. Nothing else, only blasters. It is not as slow, faster than the Ishtar, more agile as it is lighter (see ship infos if you don't believe it). Have to admit that both ships need very tough spec to work fine. I have 10M SP in gunnery, so I fly the Deimos. For a tank, it is not as bad as ppl say, and for DPS, it is very good, thought you have to get close to deal something. But again, it is not SLOW. With MWD skill at lvl 4, it goes over 1,8K. "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..."
Liet Traep Black Lance	Posted - 2008.03.31 00:54:00 - [61] Zealots are very cap efficient and have good damage at good range. Pounding with scorch crystals at 30km you can still put a hurting on peeps. [green]Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgame
Kelio Rift	Posted - 2008.03.31 02:33:00 - [62] If the Zeal is not nanoed, it cannot keep up the range. And with a web on it, it's toast. Just now I remembered, that once a Sac (poor fellow, never forget the thought of what emotion he had on his face...) equiped with Heavy Assaults forgot that almost all Gallentean vessels are equiped with web... He came too close, and... well... I don't have to tell what happened to him :P If you fly either Zeal or Sac, never - for freakin's sake - stay in close range. Or else you'll surely die. So what I'm trying to tell, that is if you decide by either of the mentioned HACs, decide by the one that suits your style most. If you like "hit me if you can" games, fly a Vaga, if you like pure pwn in close range, fly a Deimos. Or if you are top notch in skills, fly the Ishtar. "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..."
Yoko Lee	Posted - 2008.03.31 02:39:00 - [63] Edited by: Yoko Lee on 31/03/2008 02:40:32 Originally by: Kelio Rift If the Zeal is not nanoed, it cannot keep up the range. And with a web on it, it's toast. Just now I remembered, that once a Sac (poor fellow, never forget the thought of what emotion he had on his face...) equiped with Heavy Assaults forgot that almost all Gallentean vessels are equiped with web... He came too close, and... well... I don't have to tell what happened to him :P If you fly either Zeal or Sac, never - for freakin's sake - stay in close range. Or else you'll surely die. So what I'm trying to tell, that is if you decide by either of the mentioned HACs, decide by the one that suits your style most. If you like "hit me if you can" games, fly a Vaga, if you like pure pwn in close range, fly a Deimos. Or if you are top notch in skills, fly the Ishtar. Sacri stay to range? oO My tank sacri can go close range and kill easier a deimos (if no ecm drone). A good hac now its a nano hac? So much rapier actually with gang then nano ship can be destroy so fast.
Kelio Rift	Posted - 2008.03.31 02:48:00 - [64] Hmm... maybe not if I'm piloting it :) but let's not argue on that, every single ship can be easily dealt with, if you are prepared for it. As a Deimos deals Kin/Therm and only its drones are dealing any other damage, if you max out those 2, it cannot harm you. Let's pretend you are flying around in your ship, and BANG! You are not prepared for that specific ship and POP! Goes your toy... Have to go now, my worktime is over... see you later! "In a living body, a dead, senseless soul floats, waiting for death, yet cannot laugh..."
Yoko Lee	Posted - 2008.03.31 03:49:00 - [65] Sacrilege = dual repair, 2x rigs nano pump, 1x thermic hardner II, 1x eanm II, 1x dc or bcs II (prefer bcs II), i have good resistance, i can choose my damage (explo for deimos no? :)) i have good missile skills and good armor skills, + my 3x warrior II (or 3x light ecm drone), 5x heavy assault launcher II, 1x small neutra II (max distance missile 18km, more with precisions if i need). i can web, tackle, no problem cap (bonus ship + med cap inj). For me, sacrilege is the better hac, u can fit for tank easier, for gank, for nano etc.
burek Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.03.31 08:16:00 - [66] Originally by: Kelio Rift Hmm... maybe not if I'm piloting it :) but let's not argue on that, every single ship can be easily dealt with, if you are prepared for it. As a Deimos deals Kin/Therm and only its drones are dealing any other damage, if you max out those 2, it cannot harm you. Let's pretend you are flying around in your ship, and BANG! You are not prepared for that specific ship and POP! Goes your toy... Hehe, nice to see people so confident with their deimos vs sacrilege. But reality is a tanked sac can just go into web range of any hac (yes, ANY) and just simply outlast it. The deimos can huff and puff all it wants.
Sean Faust Point of No Return	Posted - 2008.03.31 13:48:00 - [67] In the Deimos, would a plate or a repper be better? I know that the plate would NORMALLY be better if it was straight up gank w/ hammerhead II's, but if you subbed those out for ECM drones, wouldn't that buy you enough time to make a repper worthwhile? I've seen lots of different fittings for the deimos and while the high and mid slots are pretty straightforward, I'm not sure what to do with the lows. My current setup I've got running in EFT is 800mm plate + DC II + RCU + 3x MFS II . . . anyone got anything else that works?
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2008.03.31 15:42:00 - [68] Originally by: Sean Faust My current setup I've got running in EFT is 800mm plate + DC II + RCU + 3x MFS II . . . anyone got anything else that works? That seams really reasonable for PVP Quote: Also, could I rat off of Sansha in Providence in a fully PvP fitted Deimos or would I need to go with a completely different setup for ratting? I see no reason why you couldn't rat in Sansha NPC space.... but you will require a repper to do it. I'm able to rat in Guristas NPC space with a gank AC Muninn afterall (MWD, 2x LSE tank). -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Sean Faust Point of No Return	Posted - 2008.03.31 16:37:00 - [69] Would I have to drop some MFS II's for rat specific hardeners? Or would my DPS be enough to burn them down before they could deal significant damage to me? This is assuming ~1m isk BS spawns
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.31 16:48:00 - [70] Originally by: Sean Faust Would I have to drop some MFS II's for rat specific hardeners? Or would my DPS be enough to burn them down before they could deal significant damage to me? This is assuming ~1m isk BS spawns Yeah, I might try something like (off the cuff, I haven't checked fittings): Neutrons&Ions MWD, Cap Rechargers MAR, 3x Hardeners, 3x MFS Rep rigs I think without the 800 plate you can fit the MAR + Ions. You might be able to fit neutrons as well - and I def would fit as many as will fit. Also, the rep rigs may or may not be mandatory - you might be able to get away with 2x rep rigs and 2x hardeners (paving the way for an RCU and all neutrons if it's required). I have rep rigs on my ratting Ishtar (recently switched from a nano ishtar for ratting purposes), and its pretty ridiculous. But I'm in Guristas space, so the Ishtar is made of win here. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Sean Faust	Posted - 2008.03.31 17:04:00 - [71] Originally by: Liang Nuren Yeah, I might try something like (off the cuff, I haven't checked fittings): Neutrons&Ions MWD, Cap Rechargers MAR, 3x Hardeners, 3x MFS Rep rigs -Liang Thats 7 low slots =/ Deimos has 6
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.31 17:06:00 - [72] Originally by: Sean Faust Originally by: Liang Nuren Yeah, I might try something like (off the cuff, I haven't checked fittings): Neutrons&Ions MWD, Cap Rechargers MAR, 3x Hardeners, 3x MFS Rep rigs -Liang Thats 7 low slots =/ Deimos has 6 Whoops, you're totally correct. I was thinking of dropping one of the MFS or a hardener, depending if you could tank it. I even checked that before making the post to make sure I had the ducks in a row. I'll edit the post. 2x MFS or 2 hardeners... -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.

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