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Suicide ganking is FINE. It's YOU who's broken.

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Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.03.27 04:12:00 - [31] Originally by: El'Niaga I think the simplest and best solution is removal of insurance while criminally flagged. Then also a change in how Concord responds to ensure the concord baiting doesn't work to save the criminals and all is good. No, it is NOT. Insurance is fine as it is. Otherwise, remove insurance for everyone with combat ships. You should NOT have insurance if you go to combat 231312 pirate ships in a mission either ;) Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Julius Romanus Fatalix Inc. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 04:13:00 - [32] Originally by: Arian Serpintus Edited by: Arian Serpintus on 27/03/2008 03:49:09 And to those that reply that not insuring such losses would chase new players away, give me a ***** break. New players aren't setting up gank squads, and if they are, ** em, we don't need em... The one's setting up gank squads are using throw away alts or free trials. That in and of itself should end this discussion. I got concorded 3 times in a row when i first came back to eve. There's even a forum post from me asking if it would ever stop. Myself and a friend wanted to test our "named" guns :) I dont personally think a half afk mission drake/raven should get insurance payouts if by some twist of eve it somehow pops. But it does. And thats not going to change. Insurance is how it is. Besides, the language of the contract is clear "i pay you x, if my ship blows up before y you pay me z". No stipulations on how or why the ship pops. ------------------ For Medicinal Use Only.
Terminus adacai Auroran PeaceKeepers Northern Regions Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 04:14:00 - [33] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: El'Niaga I think the simplest and best solution is removal of insurance while criminally flagged. Then also a change in how Concord responds to ensure the concord baiting doesn't work to save the criminals and all is good. No, it is NOT. Insurance is fine as it is. Otherwise, remove insurance for everyone with combat ships. You should NOT have insurance if you go to combat 231312 pirate ships in a mission either ;) Please explain how insurance is fine as it is when a criminal gets a pay out for a flagged act? Their boat was smashed while breaking the laws, why should they receive an insurance check? Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.03.27 04:15:00 - [34] Originally by: Terminus adacai Considering that anyone can start a free trial account with a simple email address, your advice is worthless. You said they do it to make a profit for their main, right ? Reporting the "throw-away" alt, in case it's confirmed to be a throw-away alt, following the cashflow you get to the main. BAMF, main gone. Of course, unless you make a trial alt just to inflict damage but make no profit from it. In case you don't know, CCP stores not only your IP address but also your windows product hash key, so they can tell ith's the same Windows install playing several accounts or not. While you might have access to a good deal of proxies, and even if some false positives might result from that, rest assured, the guy doing something like this WILL eventually wind up without his precious "main account" he's trying to protect. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Roid Hunter Perkone	Posted - 2008.03.27 04:15:00 - [35] Originally by: Julius Romanus Originally by: Arian Serpintus Edited by: Arian Serpintus on 27/03/2008 03:49:09 And to those that reply that not insuring such losses would chase new players away, give me a ***** break. New players aren't setting up gank squads, and if they are, ** em, we don't need em... The one's setting up gank squads are using throw away alts or free trials. That in and of itself should end this discussion. I got concorded 3 times in a row when i first came back to eve. There's even a forum post from me asking if it would ever stop. Myself and a friend wanted to test our "named" guns :) I dont personally think a half afk mission drake/raven should get insurance payouts if by some twist of eve it somehow pops. But it does. And thats not going to change. Insurance is how it is. Besides, the language of the contract is clear "i pay you x, if my ship blows up before y you pay me z". No stipulations on how or why the ship pops. That could be fixed with a simple sentence or two....
Ava Santiago AAC	Posted - 2008.03.27 04:16:00 - [36] Most of the gates in the high sec systems I operate in are now camped by suicide gankers 24/7. I now fly reapers. Nobody ganks an empty noob ship. I contract all of the goods I want moved. BUT the cost of those transports are added to every single line of production I make. I factor it in as a cost. I make a fair chunk of profit off of courier contracts that never reach my factories. In the long run this means higher transport costs - which means further base increases in costs. I sell things at a 10% markup. At some point the market will ***** and I won't be able to get the materials moved so nothing will be sold. My risk is low. My profits - short term - reflect the higher systemic risk and have larger margins. I don't like systemic problems caused by distorted incentives.
Terminus adacai Auroran PeaceKeepers Northern Regions Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 04:18:00 - [37] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Terminus adacai Considering that anyone can start a free trial account with a simple email address, your advice is worthless. You said they do it to make a profit for their main, right ? Reporting the "throw-away" alt, in case it's confirmed to be a throw-away alt, following the cashflow you get to the main. BAMF, main gone. Of course, unless you make a trial alt just to inflict damage but make no profit from it. In case you don't know, CCP stores not only your IP address but also your windows product hash key, so they can tell ith's the same Windows install playing several accounts or not. While you might have access to a good deal of proxies, and even if some false positives might result from that, rest assured, the guy doing something like this WILL eventually wind up without his precious "main account" he's trying to protect. You just made a lot of people shiver....... I understand you mean well, but rahter then TRUST CCP or rely on investigations (BOB ring a bell?), just get rid of flagged insurance pay outs... Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.03.27 04:20:00 - [38] Edited by: Akita T on 27/03/2008 04:22:00 Originally by: Ava Santiago At some point the market will *** and I won't be able to get the materials moved so nothing will be sold. At some point, the only people moving goods will be those that can properly balance their ship's "resistance" with the value of the cargo. You unload your risk to them, they get paid, you get paid, everybody's happy. Except the suicide-gankers that is, they start getting too bored because nothing worthwhile comes along often. Stupid people that haul milions in an untanked Badger I will always die, then whine. Smart people know how to mitigate their risks. Originally by:** Terminus adacai I understand you mean well, but rahter then TRUST CCP or rely on investigations (BOB ring a bell?), just get rid of flagged insurance pay outs... And then you end up with a highsec that's TOO secure, especially for those in NPC corps. There are enough incentives to NOT leave the NPC corp, we don't need another good reason not to join a player corp. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Terminus adacai Auroran PeaceKeepers Northern Regions Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 04:23:00 - [39] Edited by: Terminus adacai on 27/03/2008 04:24:27 Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 27/03/2008 04:22:00 Originally by: Ava Santiago At some point the market will *** and I won't be able to get the materials moved so nothing will be sold. At some point, the only people moving goods will be those that can properly balance their ship's "resistance" with the value of the cargo. You unload your risk to them, they get paid, you get paid, everybody's happy. Except the suicide-gankers that is, they start getting too bored because nothing worthwhile comes along often. Stupid people that haul milions in an untanked Badger I will always die, then whine. Smart people know how to mitigate their risks. Originally by:** Terminus adacai I understand you mean well, but rahter then TRUST CCP or rely on investigations (BOB ring a bell?), just get rid of flagged insurance pay outs... And then you end up with a highsec that's TOO secure, especially for those in NPC corps. There are enough incentives to NOT leave the NPC corp, we don't need another good reason not to join a player corp. You make another good point. Problem is, not all gankers are after haulers and goods.... And what do insurance pay outs to flagged criminals have to do with getting people out of NPC corps? Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.03.27 04:26:00 - [40] Quote: Setting up a gank ship with T1 crap and insuring it is not one of them, regardless of the argument. And loading up a paper-thin ship with many many many times more than it's worth in cargo, regardless of security status, is not one of them either A while back I used to haul through low sec, even punched through a few 10 man gatecamps in my time. It was difficult, nothing too arduous though. If I can get away so easily in low sec where there's no threat from concord to the gankers, why can't people do it in hi sec? I'll tell you why. Because they don't play the game properly. I'm usually proactive in my hauling protection in hi sec, nothing too extreme, I can still cuddle the girlfriend, cook lunch, do the washing, play the Xbox, surf the net, do work, talk to relax in the lounge for a bit, all while hauling. One day I got lazy, complacent and wanted to get it done quick with minimal effort. Enter one shuttle containing a BPC worth 300 mil. 12 Jump trip, going to take about 15 minutes on Autopilot. Fine. I check back in 10 minutes, my shuttle is popped, and the BPC along with it (heheh). Had I not been complacent, it wouldn't have happened. Lesson learnt. Shame others can't. Improve Market Competition!
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.03.27 04:30:00 - [41] Edited by: Akita T on 27/03/2008 04:31:45 Originally by: Terminus adacai Problem is, not all gankers are after haulers and goods. 2++ bil ISK mission-boats are just another symptom of what's wrong. You only need such a killing machine if you want to do solo-work. AGAIN, we don't need yet another reason to discourage teamwork. A small group of dirt-cheap battlecruisers can easily tackle L4 missions... hell, that's what OUR corp is for. Sure, some do solo work, but everybody's welcome to cooperate. T2-stripminer, cargo-expanded Hulks in highsec ? Solo guys. Heck, MULTIPLE accounts run by the same person, several barges or exhumers, a hauler or two maybe. Teamwork ? Minimal or not existant. Want a teamwork mining op ? Covetors with T1 stripminers and T1 mining laser upgrades, a battlecruiser with the mining amount link (-% cycle time for lasers = + amount/sec), a hauler or two, all run by separate people. Have a chat, enjoy, somebody watches local, everybody can respond instantly not switch 2-3-8 windows or machines to "get out". We need more incentives FOR teamwork, not against. Suicide ganking is one of the BETTER methods to promote it. How ? Like I said... keep your ship cheap, your cargo value low. If you do that, you won't be a target. In order to be competitive in a cheap-ish ship, teamwork helps. Case closed. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Roid Hunter Perkone	Posted - 2008.03.27 04:31:00 - [42] Edited by: Roid Hunter on 27/03/2008 04:33:25 Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Quote: Setting up a gank ship with T1 crap and insuring it is not one of them, regardless of the argument. And loading up a paper-thin ship with many many many times more than it's worth in cargo, regardless of security status, is not one of them either A while back I used to haul through low sec, even punched through a few 10 man gatecamps in my time. It was difficult, nothing too arduous though. If I can get away so easily in low sec where there's no threat from concord to the gankers, why can't people do it in hi sec? I'll tell you why. Because they don't play the game properly. I'm usually proactive in my hauling protection in hi sec, nothing too extreme, I can still cuddle the girlfriend, cook lunch, do the washing, play the Xbox, surf the net, do work, talk to relax in the lounge for a bit, all while hauling. One day I got lazy, complacent and wanted to get it done quick with minimal effort. Enter one shuttle containing a BPC worth 300 mil. 12 Jump trip, going to take about 15 minutes on Autopilot. Fine. I check back in 10 minutes, my shuttle is popped, and the BPC along with it (heheh). Had I not been complacent, it wouldn't have happened. Lesson learnt. Shame others can't. Good points. But where is the risk for throw away alts ganking in empire? Their buddies are salvaging your carcass and picking up the loot. the Alt that layed the final blow will be dead forever in a short time, and a new one born. In the end, they profited from a criminal act and got a CCP payout.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.03.27 04:34:00 - [43] Originally by: Roid Hunter Good points. But where is the risk for throw away alts ganking in empire? Their buddies are salvaging your carcass and picking up the loot. the Alt that layed the final blow will be dead forever in a short time, and a new one born. For the Nth time, the risk for THROW-AWAY alts is that if they get reported, eventually their "main" WILL die quoted an EULA violation. The risk for suicide-ganker "mains" ? Boredom waiting for a target (no boredom if too many greedy stupid people around). Boredom while grinding secstatus up again. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.03.27 04:37:00 - [44] Edited by: Cpt Fina on 27/03/2008 04:36:53 Originally by: Akita T We need more incentives FOR teamwork, not against. Remove alts. Increase and enforce market/production entrybarriers. Increase skillrequirements for... like everything. Agreed btw
Imperator Jora'h Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.27 04:37:00 - [45] Originally by: Akita T At some point, the only people moving goods will be those that can properly balance their ship's "resistance" with the value of the cargo. It is pathetically easy to fill a cargo ship past its "resist" value. Besides, I have maintained many times that a suicide gank should be pegged to hull values. A freighter costs 1 billion ISK. A gank on the freighter costs ~350 million ISK (ships + mods). Just spend 350 mil and boom...freighter gone. You can find similar disconnects in lesser cargo ships. A suicide gank is a special case of "PvP". It is fine that ganks can exist in game...indeed they should. But they should make the ganker think harder about it than they do today. Ideally I would rather see actual escort mechanics introduced into the game. A way to reliably protect a hauler versus a suicide gank or opportune gate camper. If the hauler pilot chooses to fly without them then the gankers have a much stronger case in pointing the finger back at it being the hauler's own fault for not taking possible precautions. As it is what precautions the hauler can take today are minimal at best and highly impractical at worst to the point it makes no sense to try even with the potential risk (would cost them far more to protect themselves then they stand to lose). -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Lurana Jade State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.27 04:45:00 - [46] SCENARIO 1-6/7: Suicide ganker gets rewarded by an insurance company over and over and over and over for breaking the law and getting Concordokened. Quote: Suiciding should be doable, just don't get rewarded for it ;-). Basically this but I'll rephrase: Suiciding should be doable and if they hit the right target get rewarded by whatever drops, just don't give them insurance payouts for it. So you gotta be a little more selective about your ganks, bf-deal.
Ava Santiago AAC	Posted - 2008.03.27 04:55:00 - [47] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 27/03/2008 04:22:00 Originally by: Ava Santiago At some point the market will ***** and I won't be able to get the materials moved so nothing will be sold. At some point, the only people moving goods will be those that can properly balance their ship's "resistance" with the value of the cargo. You unload your risk to them, they get paid, you get paid, everybody's happy. Except the suicide-gankers that is, they start getting too bored because nothing worthwhile comes along often. Stupid people that haul milions in an untanked Badger I will always die, then whine. Smart people know how to mitigate their risks. Wait... see you just added extra cost to the system. Industrial ships DO NOT HAVE the ability get resists to a point where they cannot be suicide ganked without severely limiting their cargo space. The volume/time these slow, weak ships take is the largely determinant cost of shipping goods. Making more trips in a ship with reduced cargo space increases the "cost" to move goods. Putting shield relays in the low slots as opposed to cargo expanders deceases the amount a ship carries.. and INCREASES the cost of moving large volumes. Meanwhile, the ganker (and buddies) get some salvage, a bunch of modules, insurance, and random loot drops. They risked nothing. They incur ZERO risk. They can scan a ship and know in advance if they will be able to blow it up before concord arrives. All reward, no risk for the ganker. Increases in costs of goods for everyone in Eve. Reduced availability of goods for everyone in Eve. Hmm. Way to socialize costs and individualize returns. Are you an investment banker by chance?
duckmonster GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.27 04:58:00 - [48] WAAH WAHH WAHH MOTHER! -----------
Pithecanthropus Republic University	Posted - 2008.03.27 05:02:00 - [49] Didn't even read the post.. .TOO LONG... its sad the lengths some people go to just to try and make a point. you fail... in more ways then one.
Marcus TheMartin Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.03.27 05:03:00 - [50] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Didn't even read the post.. .TOO LONG... its sad the lengths some people go to just to try and make a point. you fail... in more ways then one. Isn't it you who has failed as they have not read the op but felt the need to call them sad?
Terminus adacai Auroran PeaceKeepers Northern Regions Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 05:14:00 - [51] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Didn't even read the post.. .TOO LONG... its sad the lengths some people go to just to try and make a point. you fail... in more ways then one. You failed for inserting your opinion in a thread that you didn't bother to read.... Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.03.27 05:29:00 - [52] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Didn't even read the post.. .TOO LONG... its sad the lengths some people go to just to try and make a point. you fail... in more ways then one. Too short, didn't read 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Terminus adacai Auroran PeaceKeepers Northern Regions Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 05:33:00 - [53] LOL, look, 4 of 5 top threads regard ganking. Houston, we have a problem... Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.
Big Fuzz ACCORD Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 05:42:00 - [54] Edited by: Big Fuzz on 27/03/2008 05:43:12 Why don't you guys just go spend half as much time camping out at high suicide risk gates and stealing loot as you do arguing on forums? If you're right that suicide ganking is way too common and wah wah , etc. etc., you'll make a lot of isk while denying gankers their loot. Oh wait, you won't do that because... hell I don't know why, but you probably won't. edit: Btw Akita is, as usual, 100% correct.
Letouk Mernel Blue Shell Corporation	Posted - 2008.03.27 05:44:00 - [55] I think CCP needs to save us, by borrowing a concept from Vista. It goes like this: Pop-up: We notice that you've put over 100 million ISK worth of goods in that poorly fitted industrial of yours. I mean, seriously, with your fittings, a cruiser can destroy it in one shot. You could get suicide ganked. Are you sure you want to do this? Yes/No. Pop-up 2: Are you absolutely sure? Your autopilot indicates you're going to use the pipeline to Jita, and system X has 200 ships destroyed in the last 30 minutes. The chances of you losing 100 million are high. Are you sure? Yes/No. Pop-up 3: The insurance on your ship is NOT going to be sufficient to cover your 100 million ISK loss. It's not recommended that you undock. Are you sure you want to? Yes/No. Pop-up 4: CCP will not reimburse ships / items lost to PVP fights, even if the fight was a suicide attack. EVE is a PVP game. You will lose your ship. Do you still want to proceed? Yes/No. Pop-up 5: In order to reduce lag by helping the client software pre-load the environment faster, a message of your future arrival has been broadcasted to everyone in the vicinity of Gate X in System Y in your route, so that they can pre-load your industrial with its 100 million ISK cargo faster. Good luck on your journey. (Ok)
Ava Santiago AAC	Posted - 2008.03.27 05:54:00 - [56] What we need is a better hauler class. Something with about 250,000 shields, 4 Million or so armor and about 50,000 M3 cargo space. Then maybe the gankers would have a point. Frankly, the current transport ships/industrials are flying milk cartons. They lack defenses and can't be fitted with the ability to withstand 3 destroyers with basic cheap fittings. The net cost of ganking after insurance payout - even assuming failure - is next to zero.
Marcus TheMartin Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.03.27 05:56:00 - [57] Originally by: Ava Santiago What we need is a better hauler class. Something with about 250,000 shields, 4 Million or so armor and about 50,000 M3 cargo space. Then maybe the gankers would have a point. Frankly, the current transport ships/industrials are flying milk cartons. They lack defenses and can't be fitted with the ability to withstand 3 destroyers with basic cheap fittings. The net cost of ganking after insurance payout - even assuming failure - is next to zero. keep talking out of your ass please what 4 destroyers can kill a transport before instapopping from sentry guns?
Terminus adacai Auroran PeaceKeepers Northern Regions Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 06:03:00 - [58] Again, not all ganked ships are haulers. Yes, someone carrying a billion in isk goods with an industrial flying solo in a hub is not a good idea. We get that. The problem lies in the gankers risk vs reward. Plain and simple. What assurances do we have that throw away alts aren't profiting from a game mechanic? None that i can see. This discussion is old, yes, but ganking seems to have become more common not only at gates, but in belts. Anyone defending such a mechanic has a motive for doing so. As has been mentioned many times in numerous threads, take away the insurance pay out on criminally flagged kills. Seems pretty simple to me. This would actually take care of the risk vs reward debate. Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.
Marcus TheMartin Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.03.27 06:06:00 - [59] Originally by: Terminus adacai Anyone defending such a mechanic has a motive for doing so. I believe in a thing called devils advocate
Terminus adacai Auroran PeaceKeepers Northern Regions Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 06:09:00 - [60] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: Terminus adacai Anyone defending such a mechanic has a motive for doing so. I believe in a thing called devils advocate LOL, in a world of free trials and alt accounts, I call it BS. Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.

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