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Suicide ganking is FINE. It's YOU who's broken.

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Marcus TheMartin Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.03.27 06:10:00 - [61] Originally by: Terminus adacai Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: Terminus adacai Anyone defending such a mechanic has a motive for doing so. I believe in a thing called devils advocate LOL, in a world of free trials and alt accounts, I call it BS. good thing you aren't a judge
Terminus adacai Auroran PeaceKeepers Northern Regions Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 06:17:00 - [62] Maybe, but I can see what is going on. Again, what suggestions or ideas do you have to contribute regarding ganking? Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.
Roid Hunter Perkone	Posted - 2008.03.27 06:22:00 - [63] It is only a matter of time before CCP realizes that gank squads that are Concorded should not receive insurance payouts. I have yet to see a strong argument for paying insurance on criminal flagged losses other then the old argument that new players will leave. Please try again....
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.27 06:23:00 - [64] quote] I can't stop you from losing money because you're greedy and want to haul it all in one trip, I can only just refuse to buy your overpriced goods. Somebody else that's less careless WILL be selling it cheaper soon enough. So if I spent months working on putting together a collection of items and decide to put it all in my truck to move across town instead of one piece at a time, I am being greedy and deserve to be robbed? You can't seriously expect anyone to buy that right?
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.27 06:25:00 - [65] You scared the might nerf bat is coming and you might have to actually earn your paycheck?
Big Fuzz ACCORD Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 06:26:00 - [66] Originally by: Terminus adacai Anyone defending such a mechanic has a motive for doing so. Yep. Mine is that as more and more lazy and/or stupid people die, I make more isk because I'm neither lazy nor stupid. The bottom line is that it is SO easy not to get ganked it's ridiculous. People just keep loading up their iteron 3's with 100m of stuff, banging their heads into the same old wall and wondering why they keep getting the same crappy result time & again. Rather than take a few extra minutes to go around the wall they're spending hours upon hours whining for CCP to remove the wall.
Marcus TheMartin Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.03.27 06:26:00 - [67] Originally by: Terminus adacai Maybe, but I can see what is going on. Again, what suggestions or ideas do you have to contribute regarding ganking? remove insurance for every one who has been playing for more than 3 months let people die in death they learn
Hekilo Tetsatz Crimson Rebellion Cold Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 06:34:00 - [68] Originally by: Akita T Why does the GANKER have to have an even "risk vs reward" ratio ? What's wrong if ONLY the victim's risk-vs-rewards ratio is "just right" ? If the Ganker shouldn't have to have risk to go with his reward why should the victim? The Gankers are the first to ** about EVE being a PVP game and rant about 'risk vs. reward', but as evidenced by the alts, and trial accounts, and NPC corpers a good number of the gankers are a great deal more risk averse than the much derided 'carebears'. Quote: The "risk" of the suicide-ganker is that he gets bloody bored to death** because no worthy suicide-gank target comes along. There's your balance. I'm going to assume that was a joke, otherwise you should support the banning of suicide ganking, hauling and mining are after all boring activities therefore 'carebears' are taking all the risk they need to warrant the reward.
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.27 06:38:00 - [69] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 27/03/2008 04:05:57 I regularly carry anywhere from about 40 to a max of 350M of loot from low-sec to high-sec in a T1 frigate on a 800K SP alt. Just not AFK... WTZ, jump, WTZ, jump. And not to Jita. AFK hauling is risky, it's supposed to be risky, damnit. I used to carry stuff worth a hell of a lot more than that. In a tech 1 frigate. In and out of Jita. 2-3 times a day for weeks on end. I've never been suicide-ganked, ever.
Terminus adacai Auroran PeaceKeepers Northern Regions Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 06:40:00 - [70] Originally by: Big Fuzz Originally by: Terminus adacai Anyone defending such a mechanic has a motive for doing so. Yep. Mine is that as more and more lazy and/or stupid people die, I make more isk because I'm neither lazy nor stupid. The bottom line is that it is SO easy not to get ganked it's ridiculous. People just keep loading up their iteron 3's with 100m of stuff, banging their heads into the same old wall and wondering why they keep getting the same crappy result time & again. Rather than take a few extra minutes to go around the wall they're spending hours upon hours whining for CCP to remove the wall. Again, we are not just discussing gate camps. There are those that are engaging in ganking in belts as well. The problem is the current game mechanic that allows gankers to recover losses through insurance. A hauler that has no protection and uses auto pilot hauling lots of iskies deserves what they get. Just increase the risk to the gank squad. Unfortunately, most gankers are trial and alt toons that could care less about the current risk, standings. Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.

Big Fuzz ACCORD Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 06:45:00 - [71] Originally by: Hekilo Tetsatz The Gankers are the first to **** about EVE being a PVP game and rant about 'risk vs. reward', but as evidenced by the alts, and trial accounts, and NPC corpers a good number of the gankers are a great deal more risk averse than the much derided 'carebears'. This whole alt argument is irrelevant. If you know someone is recycling alts for this you need to petition it. It's bannable. Alt argument dismissed. BTW: if you're getting popped by noob alts with no skill points you really deserve to die because you put exactly zero effort into avoiding it AND you're on autopilot. Guys, just spend 2 seconds covering your ass and you won't die. Hell, you can even fly a fully expanded t1 hauler with a ton of value in it with reasonable safety as long as you are at the keys using WTZ. Is that REALLY so much to ask? Really worth all the time spent complaining? Really?
AKULA UrQuan STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.27 06:50:00 - [72] It's the little things that'll keep you safe. -picking out the sound of a cargo scanner running. -The rifter that locked you may not be a moron. -Fly manualy useing WTZ. -Run a shuttle along the flightpath first. -Have a trusted corpmate (with a clue) fly 1-2 jumps ahead. -Take the longer, less traveled, path. -Nanofiber & I-Stabs too much trouble? Somewhere along the line I apparently missed the memo where effort was nolonger needed in eve.
Marcus TheMartin Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.03.27 06:50:00 - [73] Originally by: Terminus adacai Originally by: Big Fuzz Unfortunately, most gankers are trial and alt toons that could care less about the current risk, standings. provide numbers
Big Fuzz ACCORD Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 06:55:00 - [74] Originally by: Terminus adacai Again, we are not just discussing gate camps. There are those that are engaging in ganking in belts as well. The problem is the current game mechanic that allows gankers to recover losses through insurance. Hulk, allow me to introduce you to Basilisk. Basilisk, Hulk. Fleet of hulks are then gankproofed by one nice pilot hanging out in a belt with them. If you complain about how it sucks so bad that you can't do it solo, etc. etc. Either 1) get some friends and suck it up; 2) train a logistics alt; 3) accept the increased risk of a gank; 4) fly a covetor that isn't worth ganking & make a bit less isk/second. None of this is too much to ask. All denying insurance payouts to gankers does is raise gankable threshold. We'll be having this SAME argument in a month when people find it suddenly outrageous that it's worth it for an uninsured brutix to gank their (insert whatever current value being used is + 20m) ship.
Bellum Eternus Death of Virtue Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.03.27 06:56:00 - [75] Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Cpt Fina Freighters are borked tbqh. It's not suiciders fault, it's not the traders fault. The ship is borked. Scenario seven The freighter can't haul anything worth more than 1,000 ISK/m3 at full load. The freighter can only haul 1,05 times its own worth. The freighterpilot can do next to nothing on his own to modify his ship to counter a percieved threat unlike any other ship in the game bar shuttles. Escorts are often not financially viable. Multiple runs are often not financially viable. By using two people (freighter pilot and one gangmate), you can render a freighter nearly invulnerable. Particularly in highsec. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Terminus adacai Auroran PeaceKeepers Northern Regions Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 06:56:00 - [76] Originally by: Big Fuzz Originally by: Hekilo Tetsatz The Gankers are the first to **** about EVE being a PVP game and rant about 'risk vs. reward', but as evidenced by the alts, and trial accounts, and NPC corpers a good number of the gankers are a great deal more risk averse than the much derided 'carebears'. This whole alt argument is irrelevant. If you know someone is recycling alts for this you need to petition it. It's bannable. Alt argument dismissed. BTW: if you're getting popped by noob alts with no skill points you really deserve to die because you put exactly zero effort into avoiding it AND you're on autopilot. Guys, just spend 2 seconds covering your ass and you won't die. Hell, you can even fly a fully expanded t1 hauler with a ton of value in it with reasonable safety as long as you are at the keys using WTZ. Is that REALLY so much to ask? Really worth all the time spent complaining? Really? Rather then requiring an honest hard working pilot to investigate disposable alts or trials, just remove insurance pay outs. As for new pilots not being able to kill an industrial, do you not realize that alt toons with configurable skills and insurance are common place? Again, why should victim prove he was attacked by throw away alts? Just remove the insurance pay out.... How simple can it be? Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.
Roid Hunter Perkone	Posted - 2008.03.27 06:58:00 - [77] Originally by: AKULA UrQuan It's the little things that'll keep you safe. Somewhere along the line I apparently missed the memo where effort was nolonger needed in eve. You missed the "gankers are us" news letter then. How much effort do they put into hunting prey? Where is their risk?
Imperator Jora'h Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.27 06:58:00 - [78] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 27/03/2008 07:01:22 Originally by: Shakuul There are plenty of ways to avoid suicide ganking. Funny...I see people say stuff like this all the time in threads like this but they never actually mention how it is done. Some claim it is a super sekkrit only they are privvy to and not willing to give up their advantage but really they have no clue. Bottom line is if a suicider wants to kill you they will kill you. Guards cannot do near enough to save you in time, you can tank all you want and it will not help if the gankers have a smidgen of a clue. THAT is what is bogus about this. Give haulers a legitimate means to protect themselves (or with others guarding them). Make ganks a less certain "I Win" button. As a game mechanic the current system stinks. 1) I have X-ship worth Y-ISK 1a) I know X-ship can output Z-Damage in 20 seconds 2) See hauler 2a) Scan hauler (which he can do nothing to prevent) 2b) If hauler defense < Z-Damage proceed to step 2c else abort 2c) If mods + cargo / 2 > Y-ISK proceed to step 3 else abort 3) Target hauler 3a) Press F1-F?, web and scram, bump for good measure if you are bored 3b) Wait for hauler to pop, wait for you to pop 4) Collect loot with ALT 5) Rinse and Repeat as necessary EDIT: I am NOT suggesting making haulers immune. Indeed AFK types should drop as easily under whatever system. But if a hauler makes the effort to protect themself then it should bear real results...not they die in 18 seconds instead of 15 seconds. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Marcus TheMartin Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.03.27 07:03:00 - [79] Originally by: Terminus adacai [ Rather then requiring an honest hard working pilot to investigate disposable alts or trials, just remove insurance pay outs. As for new pilots not being able to kill an industrial, do you not realize that alt toons with configurable skills and insurance are common place? Again, why should victim prove he was attacked by throw away alts? Just remove the insurance pay out.... How simple can it be? Ravens and t's must be hard work jeeze just put in that simple battleship + skill investment and read a few guides on exactly what you need to do and just let it roll in
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.27 07:12:00 - [80] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h 2) See hauler 2a) Scan hauler (which he can do nothing to prevent) 2b) If hauler defense < Z-Damage proceed to step 2c else abort 2c) If mods + cargo / 2 > Y-ISK proceed to step 3 else abort 3) Target hauler 3a) Press F1-F?, web and scram, bump for good measure if you are bored 3b) Wait for hauler to pop, wait for you to pop If you haven't warped long before those steps can be taken, you're probably on auto-pilot.

Big Fuzz ACCORD Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 07:21:00 - [81] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 27/03/2008 07:01:22 Originally by: Shakuul There are plenty of ways to avoid suicide ganking. Funny...I see people say stuff like this all the time in threads like this but they never actually mention how it is done... ...2b) If hauler defense < Z-Damage proceed to step 2c else abort 2c) If mods + cargo / 2 > Y-ISK proceed to step 3 else abort Any other questions you have that I can point out how you answer a few sentences later? The 100% secure method: Make it so all the stupid people are better targets than me. Lord knows eve is in no short supply of them. Yep, that means don't put a billion isk in a badger. Put a billion isk in a freighter instead. The 99% secure method: SIT AT THE KEYS AND WARP TO ZERO. Almost everyone who gets suicided is afk.
Marcus TheMartin Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.03.27 07:21:00 - [82] every one stop pulling numbers out of your ass
Roid Hunter Perkone	Posted - 2008.03.27 07:21:00 - [83] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Imperator Jora'h 2) See hauler 2a) Scan hauler (which he can do nothing to prevent) 2b) If hauler defense < Z-Damage proceed to step 2c else abort 2c) If mods + cargo / 2 > Y-ISK proceed to step 3 else abort 3) Target hauler 3a) Press F1-F?, web and scram, bump for good measure if you are bored 3b) Wait for hauler to pop, wait for you to pop If you haven't warped long before those steps can be taken, you're probably on auto-pilot. Or in a hauler........
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.27 07:25:00 - [84] Originally by: Roid Hunter Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Imperator Jora'h 2) See hauler 2a) Scan hauler (which he can do nothing to prevent) 2b) If hauler defense < Z-Damage proceed to step 2c else abort 2c) If mods + cargo / 2 > Y-ISK proceed to step 3 else abort 3) Target hauler 3a) Press F1-F?, web and scram, bump for good measure if you are bored 3b) Wait for hauler to pop, wait for you to pop If you haven't warped long before those steps can be taken, you're probably on auto-pilot. Or in a hauler........ ...filled with cargo expanders and with nearly no agility skills trained... ...or on auto pilot.
Xyn Rhais Tessaract	Posted - 2008.03.27 07:45:00 - [85] And yet you made no mention of the risk for the person who does the ganking when you say "suicide ganking is fine"... because there isn't any maybe ?. There is no such thing as people who "provide the risk for others". That's just the BS of gankbears, your risk/reward should be comparable to that of your intended victims. You make it sound like only trading chars get suicide ganked. Also I laughed at the "tanked hauler". Comedy . Fact is: - if you fly a freighter or a transport, people can suicide gank you just to ** you off. Because their loss is lower then your empty** ship. Suicide ganking isn't fine right now (in terms of cost/difficulty) and you just made a big failpost.
Marcus TheMartin Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.03.27 08:15:00 - [86] Originally by: Xyn Rhais Fact is: - if you fly a freighter or a transport, people can suicide gank you just to ** you off. Because their loss is lower then your empty ship. I can just smart bomb your pod just to ** you off but does that mean it happens?
Willow Whisp Sadist Faction	Posted - 2008.03.27 08:22:00 - [87] Originally by: Xyn Rhais And yet you made no mention of the risk for the person who does the ganking when you say "suicide ganking is fine"... because there isn't any maybe ?. Risk: The good loot will pop. Risk: The target will be on it's toes and gets away Risk: Ship Loss - Insurance + Modules + Dropped loot may not be enough Risk: Some other noob in a hauler steals the dropped loot before my alt can scoop it... Quote: There is no such thing as people who "provide the risk for others". That's just the BS of gankbears, your risk/reward should be comparable to that of your intended victims. Read above. The "Gankbears" do all they can to minimize their risk. They fly cheap t1 fit ships to minimize their risk and losses. By the same measure, taking steps to protect yourself, minimizes your own risk. Quote: Fact is: - if you fly a freighter or a transport, people can suicide gank you just to ** you off. Because their loss is lower then your empty ship. Suicide ganking isn't fine right now (in terms of cost/difficulty) and you just made a big failpost. They would have to catch my transport first. A t1 freighter can also be insured, thus if the insurance on the suicide gankers covers their losses, then so does the insurance on your freighter cover your loss. (by your logic) To those that continue to bring up the "Recycled Trial Account" arguement. The most used Suicide Gank ship is the battlecruiser. Relevant bit bolded: BATTLECRUISERS Battlecruisers Skill at operating Battlecruisers. Can not be trained on Trial Accounts.** -- My Sig got pwnt by Cortes :(
techzer0 IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.03.27 08:25:00 - [88] Originally by: Barek Ironfist you missed scenario eight After making a few freightor runs, and then snuffing it you decide to upgrade to a jump freightor and become immune to anything but a vast number of suicide ganking battleships. Barek I saw one cyno to a highsec gate in lowsec. I was 80k off so I didn't make it in time to bump him... but someone is going to teach that guy a very expensive lesson one day. ------------ Originally by: CCP Mitnal It's great being a puppetmaster
Lara Renquist The Phoenix Confederacy Raging Phoenix Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 08:51:00 - [89] Edited by: Lara Renquist on 27/03/2008 08:52:54 Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 27/03/2008 04:31:45 Originally by: Terminus adacai Problem is, not all gankers are after haulers and goods. 2++ bil ISK mission-boats are just another symptom of what's wrong. You only need such a killing machine if you want to do solo-work. AGAIN, we don't need yet another reason to discourage teamwork. A small group of dirt-cheap battlecruisers can easily tackle L4 missions... hell, that's what OUR corp is for. Sure, some do solo work, but everybody's welcome to cooperate. I may be a complete idiot on this point but why are +2 billion mission runners wrong? I fly a 4.5 billion one and my mate well he is even way over that, you have any idea how long it took to get that amount of isk on missions? True indeed there is almost zero risk in missions, and this should be changed. then again the numbskull's who say that mission running is sooo lucrative... get a bc go rat in 0.0 for a while, and you will know what i mean. Thing is you are not in a position to say what is right and what is wrong, this is a sandbox mmo and i play it the way I want, true we need to adapt and yes i only haul stuff in phoon's these days, this does not mean thata anyone else's playstyle is wrong. Imo all these people who keep on going into this subject on the forum's and making new post's about it, are completely cluelles. So basicly, yes i have a dapted to the playstyle of others, especially gankers, but NO i will not play like you want me to simply cause you find yourself so important to make posts about it on the forum.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.03.27 09:06:00 - [90] Originally by: Lara Renquist I may be a complete idiot on this point but why are +2 billion mission runners wrong? I fly a 4.5 billion one and my mate well he is even way over that, you have any idea how long it took to get that amount of isk on missions? The "wrong" part comes when they DO get suicide-ganked, then come here complaining about "how the hell else am I supposed to make money" or other somesuch nonsense. Want to fly solo ? FINE. Just don't complain when your expensive toy gets popped. You knew the risks. Or if you didn't, now you do. Quote: Thing is you are not in a position to say what is right and what is wrong, this is a sandbox mmo and i play it the way I want, true we need to adapt and yes i only haul stuff in phoon's these days, this does not mean thata anyone else's playstyle is wrong. I don't have to say that, the devs already made it pretty clear from day one. They don't want people to succeed in "solo ops" unless they're either insanely skilled or fly insanely expensive ships, and even in that case, they have to be pretty lucky too, to compete against a team of cheaply fit, moderately skilled pilots. It's now what I'm saying, it's what the core game design is SCREAMING : teamwork is essential, and highly desirable. You're free to swim against the current if that's your choice though. Quote: Imo all these people who keep on going into this subject on the forum's and making new post's about it, are completely cluelles. So basicly, yes i have a dapted to the playstyle of others, especially gankers, but NO i will not play like you want me to simply cause you find yourself so important to make posts about it on the forum. You can play any way you like. You CAN'T go ahead whining every couple of days that the game is broken because it doesn't fit YOUR vision, and ask for a major change. Well, not "you", you... the generic "you", the "suicide ganking is imbalanced" crowd. See ? A simple matter of perspective. Matter of fact, the official CCP developement team perspective. It's not a secret, and if it isn't common knowledge to "you guys and gals" yet, not my fault. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.



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