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Sean Faust
Point of No Return
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Posted - 2008.03.27 13:44:00 -
[31]
Interceptors should be able to go faster than any other ship in the game, period. It's their single solitary purpose that they were designed from the ground up for, and the fact that there are CRUISER-SIZED ships that can deal waaaay better DPS that can go even faster is just WRONG. Vagas should be fast, faster than any other cruiser, yes, but they shouldn't be able to touch interceptor speeds.
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Dr Fighter
White Moon Knights
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Posted - 2008.03.27 13:48:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Yes, Vagas are meant to go fast. Falcons are meant to jam. I don't see what's hard to understand about these things.
I WILL say though that the Vaga NEEDS some sort of tracking bonus so that when It's going fantastic speed it can actually hit stuff. As it stands when flying at invulnerable speed, all it's able to really do is tackle.
but to jamm effectivly the falcon cant tank, so lets give it a tanking bonus.....
The vagas speed only really affects the ships that it kills easy, everything above a cruiser isnt that affected whereas the falcon can unclock and lock and jam things that are 5x its size with ease and nto just the one target.
Thats why its silly to compared two completly different but apparrently overpowered ships.
ecm is pretty much the most powerful EW in game reducing ANY ship to zero offence in seconds... and keep it like that.
Im a self confessed hater of ECM i preffered it when it was all on sensor strength pionts and none of this chance basied rubbish we have now.
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Cpt Branko
Surge. Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.03.27 13:56:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Lea Re
Originally by: Cpt Fina
No we got to fix the gank deimos, the tank abaddon and the EW-scorpion first.
Hauling-iterons and mining-hulks also need to be looked at.
you forgot to mention cloaking covops
Clearly broken. Nano-ceptors and cloaking covops, bloody exploiters, the lot of them Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Reem Fairchild
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.27 14:38:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 27/03/2008 14:38:50
Originally by: Sean Faust Interceptors should be able to go faster than any other ship in the game, period. It's their single solitary purpose that they were designed from the ground up for, and the fact that there are CRUISER-SIZED ships that can deal waaaay better DPS that can go even faster is just WRONG. Vagas should be fast, faster than any other cruiser, yes, but they shouldn't be able to touch interceptor speeds.
The Vagabond is not faster than an interceptor. If you have the same type fittings, same skills, same implants, same gang bonuses, same rigs, and so on... the Vagabond is slower than the slowest interceptor in the game.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge XIII Legio
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Posted - 2008.03.27 14:57:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Semkhet
Correct, overspecialization is the key. ...those who don't max out on a setup will ALWAYS suck against, and will always come whine here on forums, forgetting all the areas where the player that just kicked their butt is weak since he sacrificed most of his training to shine in a very narrow area.
This man speaks the truth - the pilot/gang that ruined your day with a very focused tactic also lacks skills in a variety of other tactics.
If you guys complain about ECM OR nanos - you will reduce this game of blobs of gank & tank ships, with little to no tactical variety.
Specialized tactics are what keep blobs somewhat in check - eliminate them and you're slowly killing this game one whine at a time... __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
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Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.27 15:12:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Markit Broker you in a big ship, he is in a small ship. he is faster, and he run a way. he is in a big ship, you in a small ship. you are faster, will you stay and get killed?
The problem with nanos is this:
-Nano hacs = big ships with good firepower that go as faster then many things that they can kill.
-Youre slower then nano, you die. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
Zara Torbe
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.03.27 15:14:00 -
[37]
I am really worried that CCP will do a blanket fix to nano... Which will affect ALL ships (namely the inty and especially Vaga)
They did this to damps, ruining the Gallente recon
If CCP fuxar vagas, i think its time to go play WoW
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Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.27 15:17:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Zara Torbe
If CCP fuxar vagas, i think its time to go play WoW
WoW pvp <<<< eve pvp
WoW pve >>>> eve pve
You pvp because youre worried about the vaga.
Your statement makes little sense. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge XIII Legio
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Posted - 2008.03.27 15:26:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Omarvelous on 27/03/2008 15:27:33
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Markit Broker you in a big ship, he is in a small ship. he is faster, and he run a way. he is in a big ship, you in a small ship. you are faster, will you stay and get killed?
The problem with nanos is this:
-Nano hacs = big ships with good firepower that go as faster then many things that they can kill.
-Youre slower then nano, you die.
Oversimplified.
Your slower gang should have tactical variety with some ECM/damps/Neut.
ECM and you too can disengage.
Damp and you can force them to either disengage or come into web range.
Heavy Neut and you shut down their MWD.
Nanos allow you to engage or disengage as you like.
The cost?
They have no tank, and limited individual firepower.
The Counter?
EWAR
Balanced?
Yes.
P.S. I don't even fly nano-HACs - I constantly fight against them though - and I don't have a problem with them. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
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Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.27 15:27:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Omarvelous
Oversimplified.
Your slower gang should have tactical variety with some ECM/damps/Neut.
ECM and you too can disengage.
Damp and you can force them to either disengage or come into web range.
Heavy Neut and you shut down their MWD.
Nanos allow you to engage or disengage as you like.
The cost?
They have no tank, and limited individual firepower.
The Counter?
EWAR
Balanced?
Yes.
You know youre desription is misguiding....it is. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge XIII Legio
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Posted - 2008.03.27 15:30:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
You know youre desription is misguiding....it is.
What's misguiding? If your gang does not have its own nano's - you should have it tactically flexible in other areas - EWAR for example.
If your gang is so one-dimensional that it only has gank and tank ships - you deserve to die to a gang that is fit to counter that. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
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Zara Torbe
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.03.27 15:30:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Omarvelous
Oversimplified.
Your slower gang should have tactical variety with some ECM/damps/Neut.
ECM and you too can disengage.
Damp and you can force them to either disengage or come into web range.
Heavy Neut and you shut down their MWD.
Nanos allow you to engage or disengage as you like.
The cost?
They have no tank, and limited individual firepower.
The Counter?
EWAR
Balanced?
Yes.
You know youre desription is misguiding....it is.
Your english is horrid.
PS: my statement made perfect sense. You just fail at comprehension.
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Bahhs Deep
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.03.27 15:53:00 -
[43]
Originally by: xxxak The various threads calling out the Falcon and ECM are absurd until Nano-gangs are fixed.
The real problem with EVE is that there is currently a class of ships that can choose when to engage and disengage with 95%+ impunity. The Falcon is perhaps *part* of that problem, but the real ships that are guilty of this characteristic are the Vagas, Ishtars, and nano ceptors.
No, the only problem is people making multiple threads about the same stupid crap. If there is one thread about something....DON'T GO MAKE ANOTHER JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT ON THE FIRST PAGE.
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xHalcyonx
Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.03.27 15:54:00 -
[44]
Edited by: xHalcyonx on 27/03/2008 15:56:25
Originally by: Riho
Originally by: xxxak The various threads calling out the Falcon and ECM are absurd until Nano-gangs are fixed.
The real problem with EVE is that there is currently a class of ships that can choose when to engage and disengage with 95%+ impunity. The Falcon is perhaps *part* of that problem, but the real ships that are guilty of this characteristic are the Vagas, Ishtars, and nano ceptors.
Vaga and interceptors are SUPPOSED to go really fast... thats what they are meant to do... i dont think you quite grasp what the problem is yourself
They are supposed to go fast. They are not supposed to engage LuDiCrOuS SpEeD. 7km/s vaga is okay; 13km/s+ vaga, not okay. 10km/s ceptor is okay, they are designed to intercept; 20km/s+ vaga, not okay.
There is a threshhold of being too fast, and I swear if anyone trys to site that "real spaceships travel much faster than this in real life" then I will just refer you to the Newton's First Law of Motion: The Law of Inertaia. Any ship could reach any speed given enough time and if you pulse your micro-warp drive on then off, then whatever speed you were going at the time the MWD shut off is your new base speed.
Basically in EvE all the ships are flying in a viscous material and I think someone did some calculations long ago that made it come out to be near or eqaul to water.
TL;DR version: stack all speed mods/rigs, nerf snakes. ------------------- ნỊs uʍop əpỊsdn Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr! |
Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.27 16:07:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Zara Torbe
Your english is horrid.
Its my 4th language. English is your one and only? ^^ -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
Liam Fremen
Insurgent New Eden Tribe Deus Ex.
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Posted - 2008.03.27 17:04:00 -
[46]
EvE universe is full of water, everyone know it, everything moves like in water, even the fact ur ship come back "alligned" when u stop it on the horizon...
Horizon... event horizon O_O HELP damn little devils are coming out of the wall ahhhhh _________________________________________________
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge XIII Legio
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Posted - 2008.03.27 17:21:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Zara Torbe
Your english is horrid.
Its my 4th language. English is your one and only? ^^
Impressive - and also a reason why there's no point in poking fun at someone's English in this international game.
P.S. Back on topic - why did you think I was misleading?
Originally by: Liam Fremen
EvE universe is full of water, everyone know it, everything moves like in water, even the fact ur ship come back "alligned" when u stop it on the horizon...
Horizon... event horizon O_O HELP damn little devils are coming out of the wall ahhhhh
Dude, that movie scared the hell out of me when I first saw it! I seriously thought that kid was going to explode in the decompression chamber.
__________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
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Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.27 18:28:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Omarvelous
P.S. Back on topic - why did you think I was misleading?
"Your slower gang should have tactical variety with some ECM/damps/Neut. " -No point in damps, they are not going to stop a swarm of nano hacs -ECM falcon? Hes going to get forced off very quickly or get killed. These are fast nano hacs with good dps. -Neuts? Either you need a heavy neut = battleship or you fly a recon no one flies or you need a nano with a medium neut yourself.
"ECM and you too can disengage." -ECM doesnt really kill em and I know youre gonna say "if you force em off its a win" but why fit disruptors at all if you win by chasing people away without killing them.
"Damp and you can force them to either disengage or come into web range." -Same as above and they wont come into web range. Theyll just pick single targets or just run if they cant. Its a win-draw situation for them 99% of time in engagements.
"Heavy Neut and you shut down their MWD." -True but not every bang has a BS. Some like cruiser/BC gangs aswell.
"Nanos allow you to engage or disengage as you like." -True
"The cost?" -The ships might cost more but they die alot less. Wich is the more expensive ship? The one that costs 200mill but only has a death risk of 5% or a 50mill ship that has a death risk of 50%? Id dare to say, nanos are CHEAPER.
"They have no tank, and limited individual firepower." -I dont agree. Nanos can gank a target if they get in close with high damage ammo. Their tank is mostly enough for this and their dps is also high enough.
The Counter? EWAR Balanced? Yes.
The counter is huginn. Because its the only counter that has a chance of killing them.
You made nanos look like kittens while in fact they are panthers.
my 2 cents. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
Corstaad
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.03.27 19:27:00 -
[49]
I really can't beleive how stupid almost all of you are in this thread. A different thread every day which whine will it be tomorrow? This forum is a big pile of crap latelly run by Johnny JoJo's and Lyria. Please bring back blanket goon posts.
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Derek Sigres
Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.27 19:31:00 -
[50]
My one single gripe about nano ships revolves around the simple fact that I have never managed to kill one solo. I've driven them off on many occasions but I can never get the kill.
There IS a change I'd like to see though. Precision Light Missiles are pretty much the only "good" answer to nanos. But if a nano ship can break the 6500m/s barrier they are effectivly immune to this tactic. I'd settle for precision light missiles that have the same range as current precision missiles but with a MUCH faster flight time and explosion velocity. Make the explosion radius big enough to shield interceptors from almost all of the damage and cut the base damage of the missiles down by 30 - 50%, and make them cost about as much as a faction missile. As a counter, I feel this COULD work well - after all, a Drake fitted with 7 of these things would pump out a paulty 100 or so DPS - easily outgunned by your average nano. It would be JUST enough firepower to disuade nano's, and yet pitiful enough to ensure they are only carried by a true speciality ship, since their tremendous costs and drawbacks would limit the number of people willing to waste cargo space on the things.
But that's nitpicking - after all, it's rare for a Nano HAC to break 6500 m/s without spending a fortune on the thing, and once the HAC goes that fast they tend to lose their teeth. It's just a "solution" that can be added into the already full wallet of things to throw at a nano ship, and it's honestly a terrible solution since it favors caldari and leaves the turret heavy races in the cold.
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Etho Demerzel
Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.03.27 20:01:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 27/03/2008 20:02:53 The ONLY motive to fly HACs is their ability to hit and run. Otherwise one would be much better with battlecruisers or battleships.
There are several tasks HACs can't perform well, like attacking POSes or taking capital ships down. They are skirmish ships that exel on picking the targets in advantageous situations to them.
There is no point in complaining against HACs going at 3-4 km/s (or around 6-7 for vagabonds). That is the reason they exist. They are made to harass, roam, hit and run.
The only problems are PRECISION missiles inefectiveness, especially when you add bonuses and implants and get ridiculous speeds, like 10+ km/s. This should be looked at. Precision missiles should be able to hit speed tanked ships for at least reasonable damage at ALL conditions.
And for the guy who said that then we would see only Caldari ships replacing nanoships, I say: good look to them. A gang of missile boats using precision light missiles find a group of battlecruisers or battleships or any heavy armored/heavy damage types, they will be completely obliterated.
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"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Rawr Cristina
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.03.27 20:15:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Katarlia Simov If you 'fix' missiles against nano-ships then there is pretty much no reason to fly anything than caldari in skirmish PvP, since nano gangs can't touch you and you just fly away from cumbersome slower battleship gangs who you cant kill.
Oh hang on.
Thats your arguament against nanos isn't it ?
Erm, I said more effective than it currently is, not "If you fly Caldari, Nanos are useless" effective. (not that the Nanos can just runaway or anything)
Zealot/Harbinger/Abso are much more effective vs nanos ATM yet you don't see everyone flying Amarr, do you?
Minmatar can hit Nanos just fine too with ACs. May require a falloff rig or two but it's fairly decent nontheless.
The only missile type that can hit most nanos are precision lights fired from a Cerb with missile velocity/exp velocity rigs, but even that dosen't work vs anything moving faster than 5-6km/sec and at the end of the day you're far less useful in a gang than a Vaga. Precision heavies will be lucky to damage something moving even 2km/sec
Though the race that are most "In the cold" so to speak are Gallente, since blasters and drones are pretty much completely ineffective vs nanos barring some very specific setups.
The sole reason nanogangs are so popular is the lack of counters, even to fend them off in most cases. Fitting for speed is fine and all, but when it also makes you immune to practically all weapons fire as well as give you the option to disengage at will then something is wrong imo. Nano gangs should be effective at avoiding blobs and picking off stragglers IMO, but when you get entire gangs ripped apart by a handful of Vagabonds, Huginns and other assorted nanoships, with no loss whatsoever for the nanos, it really brings their effectiveness into question.
I'm not saying counters don't exist, because they do - It's just too few ships are able to utilise them. (nobody's going to care if you don't have a Lachesis or Curse in your gang, but if you don't have a Huginn it's not even worth undocking in a lot of cases) ...
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Sean Faust
Point of No Return
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Posted - 2008.03.27 20:55:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Sean Faust on 27/03/2008 20:58:12 What makes nanos overpowered isn't that they can disengage at will. It isn't the fact that they have exceptional damage mitigation. What makes them overpowered is this:
In order to counter nanos, you need to be flying around in a highly specialized EWAR ship that only 1 in every 30 or so players has the necessary SP to fly effectively, or fit your ship with a highly specialized anti-nano fitting that won't work against 99% of the other non-nano, more "standard" gangs.
I understand that whenever you fit your ship a certain way, you're making it especially vulnerable to a specific type of opponent, but it's just wrong that fitting for anti-nano makes you especially vulnerable to EVERYBODY else.
When you undock you have a choice. You can either fit your ships to be able to counter nano-warfare, in which case they will be utterly useless should you encounter a NON-nano gang and you get ripped apart, or you can give it a more "conventional" fitting that will make you fodder for nanogangs. Battles are over before they even began, and that, folks, is not PvP.
The problem with nanos is that in order to be able to counter nanogangs, you need to specialize so much toward anti-nano that anything else can simply walk all over you, which essentially turns EVE into a simple case of the paper-rock-scissors combat system that plagues pvp combat in other MMO's.
Nano pilots who try to defend themselves by saying there are counters to their ships don't mention this. They don't mention that "you can fit your ship to counter me, but then you'll be a punching bag for everyone else in the game". Also, have you ever attempted to use those proposed counters when you're going up against a gang of 10 or more nanoships? They start to matter a whole lot less, don't they?
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Jovialmadness
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.03.27 21:34:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 27/03/2008 21:36:01 Nanofags and broken Falcons to boot! no one can stop us!!!
edit: changed nanogangs to nanofags. edit: added broken in front of falcons.
Quote: As a side note, i liken capacitor to blood. Without blood, nothing can function in the body. I do NOT like being a race that bleeds quicker than anyone else. yes, i am an alt..Jovial Quote:
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Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.27 22:13:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 27/03/2008 22:13:43
Originally by: Corstaad I really can't beleive how stupid almost all of you are in this thread. A different thread every day which whine will it be tomorrow? This forum is a big pile of crap latelly run by Johnny JoJo's and Lyria. Please bring back blanket goon posts.
Who died and made you god? You got something to say or add to the thread then do it. You think youre so great? Coming into a thread, flaming people and calling them stupid for having a discussion and then relaxing and saying "wow I made a cool post now and said something funny about goon posts aswell". -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
chrisss0r
13 BLOODRAIN SYNDICATE
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Posted - 2008.03.27 23:01:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Sean Faust Edited by: Sean Faust on 27/03/2008 20:58:12 The problem with nanos is that in order to be able to counter nanogangs, you need to specialize so much toward anti-nano that anything else can simply walk all over you, which essentially turns EVE into a simple case of the paper-rock-scissors combat system that plagues pvp combat in other MMO's.
OH NOES ROCK-PAPER-SCISSORS PLAGUES MMOs Don't u even think about what the hell u are writing? How about setting up a mixed gang? Can't believe that players really want rock-rock-rock mechanics in pvp.
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Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.27 23:24:00 -
[57]
Originally by: chrisss0r
OH NOES ROCK-PAPER-SCISSORS PLAGUES MMOs Don't u even think about what the hell u are writing? How about setting up a mixed gang? Can't believe that players really want rock-rock-rock mechanics in pvp.
f u c k i n g piece of s h i t forums ate my post again
Now to topic:
Actually its the other way around. Nanos move eve pvp mechanics into rock rock rock. They either win or they draw. If you belive that is rock paper scissors you are mistaken. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
Lorz0r
You're Doing It Wrong
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Posted - 2008.03.27 23:28:00 -
[58]
Originally by: chrisss0r
Originally by: Sean Faust Edited by: Sean Faust on 27/03/2008 20:58:12 The problem with nanos is that in order to be able to counter nanogangs, you need to specialize so much toward anti-nano that anything else can simply walk all over you, which essentially turns EVE into a simple case of the paper-rock-scissors combat system that plagues pvp combat in other MMO's.
OH NOES ROCK-PAPER-SCISSORS PLAGUES MMOs Don't u even think about what the hell u are writing? How about setting up a mixed gang? Can't believe that players really want rock-rock-rock mechanics in pvp.
Surely the countless people using nano-ships are using the rock-rock-rock mechanics youre talking about? A nano-gang is not a mixed gang. Sure they might be different ships but they all go really really fast and are nigh on impossible to kill.
What's unfair about what he's describing is that if you're nano'd you can engage 90% of all ships in the game and the worst outcome 90% of the time is a draw resulting in the nano warping off. If the target is not specifically setup for anti-nano then he has 0% chance of winning unless the nano makes a colossal error but that could happen to anyone.
If you ask me - nanoships are what's causing this so called rock-rock-rock mechanics you're talking about. If you're not nano then you're anti-nano or you're dead.
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Corstaad
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.03.27 23:46:00 -
[59]
Lyria you need to start a petition to start a whine forum all off you can get together and just whine for hours. I really shouldn't have to point this out your nothing other then a forumtroll like Johnny JoJo. Tomorrow drum up something like Minny Arty boats are OP'd maybe saturday start a huge mega thread on nano domi's. I laughed you even whined in your PvP Video.
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Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.27 23:58:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Corstaad Lyria you need to start a petition to start a whine forum all off you can get together and just whine for hours. I really shouldn't have to point this out your nothing other then a forumtroll like Johnny JoJo.
What are you talking about? Youre gonna go mr goody two shoes on me now? Yeah, I wish we could all behave and post in your manner. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
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