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xxxak
O.W.N. Corp United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.27 06:10:00 -
[1]
The various threads calling out the Falcon and ECM are absurd until Nano-gangs are fixed.
The real problem with EVE is that there is currently a class of ships that can choose when to engage and disengage with 95%+ impunity. The Falcon is perhaps *part* of that problem, but the real ships that are guilty of this characteristic are the Vagas, Ishtars, and nano ceptors.
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Marcus TheMartin
Tuxedo.
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Posted - 2008.03.27 06:12:00 -
[2]
Originally by: xxxak The various threads calling out the Falcon and ECM are absurd until Nano-gangs are fixed.
The real problem with EVE is that there is currently a class of ships that can choose when to engage and disengage with 95%+ impunity. The Falcon is perhaps *part* of that problem, but the real ships that are guilty of this characteristic are the Vagas, Ishtars, and nano ceptors.
WTF FRIGATES FLYING FAST THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!!!
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Markit Broker
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.03.27 06:12:00 -
[3]
you in a big ship, he is in a small ship. he is faster, and he run a way. he is in a big ship, you in a small ship. you are faster, will you stay and get killed?
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Riho
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.03.27 06:16:00 -
[4]
Originally by: xxxak The various threads calling out the Falcon and ECM are absurd until Nano-gangs are fixed.
The real problem with EVE is that there is currently a class of ships that can choose when to engage and disengage with 95%+ impunity. The Falcon is perhaps *part* of that problem, but the real ships that are guilty of this characteristic are the Vagas, Ishtars, and nano ceptors.
Vaga and interceptors are SUPPOSED to go really fast... thats what they are meant to do... i dont think you quite grasp what the problem is yourself ---------------------------------- MY VIEW ARE MY OWN, I DON'T REPRESENT MY CORPORATIONS VIEWS HERE... stop mailing me.. plz
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Cpt Fina
Mutually Assured Distraction
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Posted - 2008.03.27 06:35:00 -
[5]
Originally by: xxxak nano ceptors.
No we got to fix the gank deimos, the tank abaddon and the EW-scorpion first.
Hauling-iterons and mining-hulks also need to be looked at.
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Lea Re
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.03.27 06:49:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Cpt Fina
No we got to fix the gank deimos, the tank abaddon and the EW-scorpion first.
Hauling-iterons and mining-hulks also need to be looked at.
you forgot to mention cloaking covops
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Depp Knight
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.27 06:57:00 -
[7]
You take nanos from the game, or nerf them even more, then you are killing off small gangs from eve.
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.27 06:58:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Depp Knight You take nanos from the game, or nerf them even more, then you are killing off small gangs from eve.
Only from 0.0, but I agree.
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Semkhet
Spartan Industries Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.27 07:01:00 -
[9]
Originally by: xxxak nano ceptors.
Now that's the jewel on the crown. What are they supposed to fit ? warp stabs & cargo expanders ?
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Mahn AlNouhm
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.03.27 07:02:00 -
[10]
/signed. . . .
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Wet Ferret
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.03.27 07:46:00 -
[11]
Interceptors are fine because speed is their tank.
The same cannot be said for any ship with proper T2 resists.
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Reem Fairchild
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.27 08:21:00 -
[12]
lol at "nano ceptors". Is there any other kind?
If there is any ship in Eve that is meant to be super fast and extremely difficult to catch and kill, by design, it's the interceptor.
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Reem Fairchild
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.27 08:23:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Wet Ferret Interceptors are fine because speed is their tank.
The same cannot be said for any ship with proper T2 resists.
Like the Vagabond? Which has a 5% per level of minmatar cruiser skill speed bonus and exceptionally low mass? You don't think maybe it has those for a reason?
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.27 08:37:00 -
[14]
While I hate the nano with a passion, inties really should be this fast. I don't mind the speed on other frigs either. But cruisers and bigger should NOT go that fast. Not even the****abond. It should be fast for a cruiser, yeah. But it should not be faster and more agile than most frigs. Nor should the speedtank work so exceptionally well on any cruiser or larger. In my opinion anyway.
There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones |
Yana Kaar
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.03.27 08:38:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Reem Fairchild Like the Vagabond? Which has a 5% per level of minmatar cruiser skill speed bonus and exceptionally low mass? You don't think maybe it has those for a reason?
NONONONONO *I cant hear you lalalalala* the vaga needs to be a closerange ship with a cap-boosted active shield tank!! *lalalala*
OT: WTF! how stupid can anyone be? Stating that Vagas and Inties arent supposed to go fast? O.O PLEASE shut up!
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Tammarr
Trident RMBK Rough Necks
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Posted - 2008.03.27 08:40:00 -
[16]
The only nano problem lies with ships able to project major damage without slowing down to actually hit something like the vaga etc have to do most of the time, *cough* ishtar *cough*
My order of ships that need a fix as far as speed goes is basicly: Machariel(Come on, even with faction and snakes a bs going 10kms, 20(?) with overloaded mwd and claymore?) and second the Ishtar. Beyond that its not so bad realy, let them pew about =)
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Gorefacer
Resurrection Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2008.03.27 09:19:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Depp Knight You take nanos from the game, or nerf them even more, then you are killing off small gangs from eve.
I don't fly nano ships and participate in small gangs all the time in 0.0.
Not that I'm advocating removing nanos or anything.
"You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus |
La Tortura
Nothing Personal Inc
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Posted - 2008.03.27 09:31:00 -
[18]
The problem is neither in overpowered ECM nor in nanofaggotry. The real problem in current EVE is overspecialisation of ships.
This overspecialisation seems supported by devs and it was brought in game mostly by rigs (but not only by them of course). Polys overspec speed fits, trimarks overspec these stupid 150k effective hp passive armor tanks, CCC overspec PVE shield tanks etc etc etc. And recons' bonuses overspec ewar.
I dunno if overspecialisation is good or bad, it's probably in the eye of the beholder, but it is the root of lots of rants and whines. -- ignorance is bliss |
Semkhet
Spartan Industries Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.27 09:59:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Semkhet on 27/03/2008 10:01:21
Originally by: La Tortura The problem is neither in overpowered ECM nor in nanofaggotry. The real problem in current EVE is overspecialisation of ships.
This overspecialisation seems supported by devs and it was brought in game mostly by rigs (but not only by them of course). Polys overspec speed fits, trimarks overspec these stupid 150k effective hp passive armor tanks, CCC overspec PVE shield tanks etc etc etc. And recons' bonuses overspec ewar.
I dunno if overspecialisation is good or bad, it's probably in the eye of the beholder, but it is the root of lots of rants and whines.
Correct, overspecialization is the key. After all, if I'm given a complex set of tools, why should I be a jack of all trades and suck in every area against a competent player ? Instead you choose exactly the skill tree, implants, hardwires, mods and ships which suits the best your fighting style, and if you have isk, you pimp. It's also the only way to achieve capitalization of your training over long periods, until the nerf bat strikes.
Nerf bat that is always justified for the sacro-saint balance argument, when in fact all what it does is sending thousands of players back to square 1 obliging them to explore another path while empowering the other thousands of players who excel in mediocrity and by definition will never shine in any particular aspect. The people suffering the least from all this are the vets since most of the groundwork is done, and only must reinvest a few months to shine in another aspect.
Needless to say, there's always the few individuals who get enough of CCP playing yo-yo with their training time (read $ & Ç since training = time = monthly subs) and quit. But on the other hand, by doing this, CCP is delaying the moment where a player could have the impression that he's reached the pinnacle of what he can get out of EvE. There, CCP does a lot of bucks, and as side-effect, do a favor to all whiners. Thus inducing this permanent cycle "I suck hence I whine hence CCP acts".
It doesn't matter if we are talking about ships unleashing 5x14 points ECM beyond 200 Km, cruisers flying at 6 Km/sec or 250K effective hp passive tanked battleships: those who don't max out on a setup will ALWAYS suck against, and will always come whine here on forums, forgetting all the areas where the player that just kicked their butt is weak since he sacrificed most of his training to shine in a very narrow area.
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Wet Ferret
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.03.27 11:12:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Originally by: Wet Ferret Interceptors are fine because speed is their tank.
The same cannot be said for any ship with proper T2 resists.
Like the Vagabond? Which has a 5% per level of minmatar cruiser skill speed bonus and exceptionally low mass? You don't think maybe it has those for a reason?
Not quite what I meant. I'm sure the vaga is meant to go fast, but I'm also sure that having 75/60/60/60 (w/ 1 kinetic rig) and 7300 shield HPs (2 extenders) doesn't mean it also needs to go so fast that it can't be hit at the same time.
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Dotard
Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.27 11:15:00 -
[21]
Nanos ARE fixed. Yey work just fine.
--------------- Nerf You! Buff Me!
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.03.27 11:33:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Riho
Originally by: xxxak The various threads calling out the Falcon and ECM are absurd until Nano-gangs are fixed.
The real problem with EVE is that there is currently a class of ships that can choose when to engage and disengage with 95%+ impunity. The Falcon is perhaps *part* of that problem, but the real ships that are guilty of this characteristic are the Vagas, Ishtars, and nano ceptors.
Vaga and interceptors are SUPPOSED to go really fast... thats what they are meant to do... i dont think you quite grasp what the problem is yourself
And... Falcons are supposed to jam.
In fact they're specialised to the point where they can't do anything else. Unlike such ships as eg: Vagabonds.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.03.27 11:33:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Cpt Fina
Originally by: xxxak nano ceptors.
No we got to fix the gank deimos, the tank abaddon and the EW-scorpion first.
Hauling-iterons and mining-hulks also need to be looked at.
Sniping Rokhs are an even greater issue tbh.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Rawr Cristina
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.03.27 11:37:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 27/03/2008 11:37:58 I don't mind the speed of Nanos, just how damn ineffective weapons, even those specifically designed to hit fast ships, are vs them.
Lasers (well, heavy pulse/fmp) can hit nanoships decently, but missiles and drones are practically useless once the target reaches 4km/sec. Precision lights are about the only thing that can hit those, but do very little damage and once the target exceeds 6km/sec you'll be lucky if they even hit (let alone do damage)
Missile velocities and their explosion velocities wern't designed with nano-combat in mind imo, considering that cruiser-class ships are able to evade weapons designed specifically to kill Interceptors, among other things.
Precision heavy missiles are also horribly broken too, so that dosen't help matters
Jav Hams and Precision Light/Heavy missiles all need some tweaking to enable them to be more effective vs. nanos, IMO. ...
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Katarlia Simov
Cowboys From Hell
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Posted - 2008.03.27 12:10:00 -
[25]
If you 'fix' missiles against nano-ships then there is pretty much no reason to fly anything than caldari in skirmish PvP, since nano gangs can't touch you and you just fly away from cumbersome slower battleship gangs who you cant kill.
Oh hang on.
Thats your arguament against nanos isn't it ?
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Brodde Dim
Unseen University Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2008.03.27 12:27:00 -
[26]
Specialization is a good thing imho.
There are a number of ways to counter nano gangs atm. But you need to change your fitting for it. Either make your own ship specialized in fighting them, or make the whole fleet prepared for it. Some ships are even built to help out here, like the minmatar recons/EAFs and amarr recons. And a lot of other ships can be setup for the purpose, sacrficing something else offcourse.
The difference with ECM atm is that there is no way for you to counter it. You can prepare the fleet by making them fit ECCM where possible, (just like you use Heavy Neuts to combat nano gangs), but this will just help some of the ships, and the ECM burden on your fleet will remain the same.
What we need is some way to specialize in countering the ECM ships. Like it is right now, I just sit in my falcon/rook at 200km+ and jam as many enemy ships as possible, feeling pretty safe, knowing I am immune to most things. And if somebody comes close, or I miss a cycle on a rokh and it targets me, I just warp to another spot and continue. There isnt really any ship that worries me out there. Nothing is even annoying.
I dont know in how many threads I have proposed the same thing. Buff the gallente recons damper range (not the effect). This would be the perfect counter to todays long range ECM. It wont shut other ships down totally, but it will certainly make it a lot harder for them to sit at 200-250km and disable enemy ships. ECM ships would have to either come closer and be more vulnerable, or spend a lot of time warping in and out trying to jam those recons.
To summarize; Nano-gangs might not be balanced, but let people start adapting before doing any big changes to it. ECM might not be balanced, but with proper counters there wouldnt be a need to jo-jo nerf/buff it all the time.
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Mahn AlNouhm
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.03.27 12:36:00 -
[27]
There are tons of counters to an ECM boat. You've got anti support snipers, drone nano boats, low and high slot ECCM, projected ECCM with both low and high slot variations, your own ECM boats, and missile boats. Stealth bombers are freakin poison to ECM boats. Nanos, you've got neuts (only the heavy neuts work on it), webs, and your own nanos. A good nano pilot will stay out of neut/web range, so that leaves you with your own nanos. Caldari can't even nano, and the dps for precision lights, the only missiles that have a chance to hit a nano at all, is absolute shiite. So, please, don't moan about how Caldari ECM have no counter when nano gangs are still running around doing whatever they want. It's just not a valid argument. . . .
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Brodde Dim
Unseen University Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2008.03.27 13:00:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Mahn AlNouhm There are tons of counters to an ECM boat. You've got anti support snipers, drone nano boats, low and high slot ECCM, projected ECCM with both low and high slot variations, your own ECM boats, and missile boats. Stealth bombers are freakin poison to ECM boats.
ECCM will only help 1 of your ships. It doesnt matter if it is projected or your own, or if it is low or mid slot. Stealth bombers wont reach me unless they travel 50-100km in my direction, and if they do I just warp to a new spot when I see the cruise missiles approach. Same thing with nanos, you need 20-30s to come close to me, so I just stay aligned and warp off when you are at 30-40km or so. I'll probably even jam the approaching ship just to be safe.
Originally by: Mahn AlNouhm Nanos, you've got neuts (only the heavy neuts work on it), webs, and your own nanos. A good nano pilot will stay out of neut/web range, so that leaves you with your own nanos. Caldari can't even nano, and the dps for precision lights, the only missiles that have a chance to hit a nano at all, is absolute shiite. So, please, don't moan about how Caldari ECM have no counter when nano gangs are still running around doing whatever they want. It's just not a valid argument.
You cant scram someone without being within range for a heavy neutralizer. Minmatar T2 have the web range to web you, and Amarr recons have the neut range (and power to neut you). Precission lights on a cerb will do some 200dps and have a range of 80km or so. This is plenty to make most nano ships buzz off. These are specialized ships, but they are still a pain for the nano pilots.
This has nothing to do with Caldari whining btw. This is an issue even for people who crosstrain and adapt. And I am the one flying the overpowered ship this time. And I am saying it is boring to see no ships being able to counter it.
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Noisrevbus
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.03.27 13:23:00 -
[29]
Falcons are fine.
Nano is fine.
Overall, there are numerous ways to beat both, they are by no stretch invulnurable if you opt to take them out. Are there issues with them? Well, overall there are things that are 'wrong' with them - but that has very little to do with the sheer strength of the ships. More so it has to do with there being a malbalance in the options to combat them. Certain ways to attack them are too strong, while other ways designed to attack them are too weak. The sum of things though is that - in Trinity - these ships are still in line enough to be perfectly okay. They are good ships, but they are not unbeatable.
See, in order to adress both the issues with nano and cloak-ECM you first need to diminish the threats against them. Chipping away at their signature mark, without impunity as the OP put it, will just leave the ships useless. So if you want to take a dig at nano you need to adress the strength of webs vs. speed tanks. If you want to take a dig at the Falcon you need to adress it's lack of tank (how electronic warfare modules in general share the same slots as shield tank modules) etc.
Correcting such things well, will probably make the game better, but you are in for a great deal of work until you get there. As things stand now, these ships are volatile - but as stated - hardly unbeatable.
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Derek Sigres
Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.27 13:32:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Riho
Originally by: xxxak The various threads calling out the Falcon and ECM are absurd until Nano-gangs are fixed.
The real problem with EVE is that there is currently a class of ships that can choose when to engage and disengage with 95%+ impunity. The Falcon is perhaps *part* of that problem, but the real ships that are guilty of this characteristic are the Vagas, Ishtars, and nano ceptors.
Vaga and interceptors are SUPPOSED to go really fast... thats what they are meant to do... i dont think you quite grasp what the problem is yourself
Yes, Vagas are meant to go fast. Falcons are meant to jam. I don't see what's hard to understand about these things.
I WILL say though that the Vaga NEEDS some sort of tracking bonus so that when It's going fantastic speed it can actually hit stuff. As it stands when flying at invulnerable speed, all it's able to really do is tackle.
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Sean Faust
Point of No Return
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Posted - 2008.03.27 13:44:00 -
[31]
Interceptors should be able to go faster than any other ship in the game, period. It's their single solitary purpose that they were designed from the ground up for, and the fact that there are CRUISER-SIZED ships that can deal waaaay better DPS that can go even faster is just WRONG. Vagas should be fast, faster than any other cruiser, yes, but they shouldn't be able to touch interceptor speeds.
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Dr Fighter
White Moon Knights
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Posted - 2008.03.27 13:48:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Yes, Vagas are meant to go fast. Falcons are meant to jam. I don't see what's hard to understand about these things.
I WILL say though that the Vaga NEEDS some sort of tracking bonus so that when It's going fantastic speed it can actually hit stuff. As it stands when flying at invulnerable speed, all it's able to really do is tackle.
but to jamm effectivly the falcon cant tank, so lets give it a tanking bonus.....
The vagas speed only really affects the ships that it kills easy, everything above a cruiser isnt that affected whereas the falcon can unclock and lock and jam things that are 5x its size with ease and nto just the one target.
Thats why its silly to compared two completly different but apparrently overpowered ships.
ecm is pretty much the most powerful EW in game reducing ANY ship to zero offence in seconds... and keep it like that.
Im a self confessed hater of ECM i preffered it when it was all on sensor strength pionts and none of this chance basied rubbish we have now.
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Cpt Branko
Surge. Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.03.27 13:56:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Lea Re
Originally by: Cpt Fina
No we got to fix the gank deimos, the tank abaddon and the EW-scorpion first.
Hauling-iterons and mining-hulks also need to be looked at.
you forgot to mention cloaking covops
Clearly broken. Nano-ceptors and cloaking covops, bloody exploiters, the lot of them Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Reem Fairchild
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.27 14:38:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 27/03/2008 14:38:50
Originally by: Sean Faust Interceptors should be able to go faster than any other ship in the game, period. It's their single solitary purpose that they were designed from the ground up for, and the fact that there are CRUISER-SIZED ships that can deal waaaay better DPS that can go even faster is just WRONG. Vagas should be fast, faster than any other cruiser, yes, but they shouldn't be able to touch interceptor speeds.
The Vagabond is not faster than an interceptor. If you have the same type fittings, same skills, same implants, same gang bonuses, same rigs, and so on... the Vagabond is slower than the slowest interceptor in the game.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge XIII Legio
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Posted - 2008.03.27 14:57:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Semkhet
Correct, overspecialization is the key. ...those who don't max out on a setup will ALWAYS suck against, and will always come whine here on forums, forgetting all the areas where the player that just kicked their butt is weak since he sacrificed most of his training to shine in a very narrow area.
This man speaks the truth - the pilot/gang that ruined your day with a very focused tactic also lacks skills in a variety of other tactics.
If you guys complain about ECM OR nanos - you will reduce this game of blobs of gank & tank ships, with little to no tactical variety.
Specialized tactics are what keep blobs somewhat in check - eliminate them and you're slowly killing this game one whine at a time... __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
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Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.27 15:12:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Markit Broker you in a big ship, he is in a small ship. he is faster, and he run a way. he is in a big ship, you in a small ship. you are faster, will you stay and get killed?
The problem with nanos is this:
-Nano hacs = big ships with good firepower that go as faster then many things that they can kill.
-Youre slower then nano, you die. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
Zara Torbe
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.03.27 15:14:00 -
[37]
I am really worried that CCP will do a blanket fix to nano... Which will affect ALL ships (namely the inty and especially Vaga)
They did this to damps, ruining the Gallente recon
If CCP fuxar vagas, i think its time to go play WoW
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Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.27 15:17:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Zara Torbe
If CCP fuxar vagas, i think its time to go play WoW
WoW pvp <<<< eve pvp
WoW pve >>>> eve pve
You pvp because youre worried about the vaga.
Your statement makes little sense. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge XIII Legio
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Posted - 2008.03.27 15:26:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Omarvelous on 27/03/2008 15:27:33
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Markit Broker you in a big ship, he is in a small ship. he is faster, and he run a way. he is in a big ship, you in a small ship. you are faster, will you stay and get killed?
The problem with nanos is this:
-Nano hacs = big ships with good firepower that go as faster then many things that they can kill.
-Youre slower then nano, you die.
Oversimplified.
Your slower gang should have tactical variety with some ECM/damps/Neut.
ECM and you too can disengage.
Damp and you can force them to either disengage or come into web range.
Heavy Neut and you shut down their MWD.
Nanos allow you to engage or disengage as you like.
The cost?
They have no tank, and limited individual firepower.
The Counter?
EWAR
Balanced?
Yes.
P.S. I don't even fly nano-HACs - I constantly fight against them though - and I don't have a problem with them. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
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Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.27 15:27:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Omarvelous
Oversimplified.
Your slower gang should have tactical variety with some ECM/damps/Neut.
ECM and you too can disengage.
Damp and you can force them to either disengage or come into web range.
Heavy Neut and you shut down their MWD.
Nanos allow you to engage or disengage as you like.
The cost?
They have no tank, and limited individual firepower.
The Counter?
EWAR
Balanced?
Yes.
You know youre desription is misguiding....it is. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge XIII Legio
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Posted - 2008.03.27 15:30:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
You know youre desription is misguiding....it is.
What's misguiding? If your gang does not have its own nano's - you should have it tactically flexible in other areas - EWAR for example.
If your gang is so one-dimensional that it only has gank and tank ships - you deserve to die to a gang that is fit to counter that. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
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Zara Torbe
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.03.27 15:30:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Omarvelous
Oversimplified.
Your slower gang should have tactical variety with some ECM/damps/Neut.
ECM and you too can disengage.
Damp and you can force them to either disengage or come into web range.
Heavy Neut and you shut down their MWD.
Nanos allow you to engage or disengage as you like.
The cost?
They have no tank, and limited individual firepower.
The Counter?
EWAR
Balanced?
Yes.
You know youre desription is misguiding....it is.
Your english is horrid.
PS: my statement made perfect sense. You just fail at comprehension.
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Bahhs Deep
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.03.27 15:53:00 -
[43]
Originally by: xxxak The various threads calling out the Falcon and ECM are absurd until Nano-gangs are fixed.
The real problem with EVE is that there is currently a class of ships that can choose when to engage and disengage with 95%+ impunity. The Falcon is perhaps *part* of that problem, but the real ships that are guilty of this characteristic are the Vagas, Ishtars, and nano ceptors.
No, the only problem is people making multiple threads about the same stupid crap. If there is one thread about something....DON'T GO MAKE ANOTHER JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT ON THE FIRST PAGE.
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xHalcyonx
Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.03.27 15:54:00 -
[44]
Edited by: xHalcyonx on 27/03/2008 15:56:25
Originally by: Riho
Originally by: xxxak The various threads calling out the Falcon and ECM are absurd until Nano-gangs are fixed.
The real problem with EVE is that there is currently a class of ships that can choose when to engage and disengage with 95%+ impunity. The Falcon is perhaps *part* of that problem, but the real ships that are guilty of this characteristic are the Vagas, Ishtars, and nano ceptors.
Vaga and interceptors are SUPPOSED to go really fast... thats what they are meant to do... i dont think you quite grasp what the problem is yourself
They are supposed to go fast. They are not supposed to engage LuDiCrOuS SpEeD. 7km/s vaga is okay; 13km/s+ vaga, not okay. 10km/s ceptor is okay, they are designed to intercept; 20km/s+ vaga, not okay.
There is a threshhold of being too fast, and I swear if anyone trys to site that "real spaceships travel much faster than this in real life" then I will just refer you to the Newton's First Law of Motion: The Law of Inertaia. Any ship could reach any speed given enough time and if you pulse your micro-warp drive on then off, then whatever speed you were going at the time the MWD shut off is your new base speed.
Basically in EvE all the ships are flying in a viscous material and I think someone did some calculations long ago that made it come out to be near or eqaul to water.
TL;DR version: stack all speed mods/rigs, nerf snakes. ------------------- ნỊs uʍop əpỊsdn Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr! |
Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.27 16:07:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Zara Torbe
Your english is horrid.
Its my 4th language. English is your one and only? ^^ -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
Liam Fremen
Insurgent New Eden Tribe Deus Ex.
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Posted - 2008.03.27 17:04:00 -
[46]
EvE universe is full of water, everyone know it, everything moves like in water, even the fact ur ship come back "alligned" when u stop it on the horizon...
Horizon... event horizon O_O HELP damn little devils are coming out of the wall ahhhhh _________________________________________________
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge XIII Legio
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Posted - 2008.03.27 17:21:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Zara Torbe
Your english is horrid.
Its my 4th language. English is your one and only? ^^
Impressive - and also a reason why there's no point in poking fun at someone's English in this international game.
P.S. Back on topic - why did you think I was misleading?
Originally by: Liam Fremen
EvE universe is full of water, everyone know it, everything moves like in water, even the fact ur ship come back "alligned" when u stop it on the horizon...
Horizon... event horizon O_O HELP damn little devils are coming out of the wall ahhhhh
Dude, that movie scared the hell out of me when I first saw it! I seriously thought that kid was going to explode in the decompression chamber.
__________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
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Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.27 18:28:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Omarvelous
P.S. Back on topic - why did you think I was misleading?
"Your slower gang should have tactical variety with some ECM/damps/Neut. " -No point in damps, they are not going to stop a swarm of nano hacs -ECM falcon? Hes going to get forced off very quickly or get killed. These are fast nano hacs with good dps. -Neuts? Either you need a heavy neut = battleship or you fly a recon no one flies or you need a nano with a medium neut yourself.
"ECM and you too can disengage." -ECM doesnt really kill em and I know youre gonna say "if you force em off its a win" but why fit disruptors at all if you win by chasing people away without killing them.
"Damp and you can force them to either disengage or come into web range." -Same as above and they wont come into web range. Theyll just pick single targets or just run if they cant. Its a win-draw situation for them 99% of time in engagements.
"Heavy Neut and you shut down their MWD." -True but not every bang has a BS. Some like cruiser/BC gangs aswell.
"Nanos allow you to engage or disengage as you like." -True
"The cost?" -The ships might cost more but they die alot less. Wich is the more expensive ship? The one that costs 200mill but only has a death risk of 5% or a 50mill ship that has a death risk of 50%? Id dare to say, nanos are CHEAPER.
"They have no tank, and limited individual firepower." -I dont agree. Nanos can gank a target if they get in close with high damage ammo. Their tank is mostly enough for this and their dps is also high enough.
The Counter? EWAR Balanced? Yes.
The counter is huginn. Because its the only counter that has a chance of killing them.
You made nanos look like kittens while in fact they are panthers.
my 2 cents. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
Corstaad
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.03.27 19:27:00 -
[49]
I really can't beleive how stupid almost all of you are in this thread. A different thread every day which whine will it be tomorrow? This forum is a big pile of crap latelly run by Johnny JoJo's and Lyria. Please bring back blanket goon posts.
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Derek Sigres
Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.27 19:31:00 -
[50]
My one single gripe about nano ships revolves around the simple fact that I have never managed to kill one solo. I've driven them off on many occasions but I can never get the kill.
There IS a change I'd like to see though. Precision Light Missiles are pretty much the only "good" answer to nanos. But if a nano ship can break the 6500m/s barrier they are effectivly immune to this tactic. I'd settle for precision light missiles that have the same range as current precision missiles but with a MUCH faster flight time and explosion velocity. Make the explosion radius big enough to shield interceptors from almost all of the damage and cut the base damage of the missiles down by 30 - 50%, and make them cost about as much as a faction missile. As a counter, I feel this COULD work well - after all, a Drake fitted with 7 of these things would pump out a paulty 100 or so DPS - easily outgunned by your average nano. It would be JUST enough firepower to disuade nano's, and yet pitiful enough to ensure they are only carried by a true speciality ship, since their tremendous costs and drawbacks would limit the number of people willing to waste cargo space on the things.
But that's nitpicking - after all, it's rare for a Nano HAC to break 6500 m/s without spending a fortune on the thing, and once the HAC goes that fast they tend to lose their teeth. It's just a "solution" that can be added into the already full wallet of things to throw at a nano ship, and it's honestly a terrible solution since it favors caldari and leaves the turret heavy races in the cold.
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Etho Demerzel
Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.03.27 20:01:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 27/03/2008 20:02:53 The ONLY motive to fly HACs is their ability to hit and run. Otherwise one would be much better with battlecruisers or battleships.
There are several tasks HACs can't perform well, like attacking POSes or taking capital ships down. They are skirmish ships that exel on picking the targets in advantageous situations to them.
There is no point in complaining against HACs going at 3-4 km/s (or around 6-7 for vagabonds). That is the reason they exist. They are made to harass, roam, hit and run.
The only problems are PRECISION missiles inefectiveness, especially when you add bonuses and implants and get ridiculous speeds, like 10+ km/s. This should be looked at. Precision missiles should be able to hit speed tanked ships for at least reasonable damage at ALL conditions.
And for the guy who said that then we would see only Caldari ships replacing nanoships, I say: good look to them. A gang of missile boats using precision light missiles find a group of battlecruisers or battleships or any heavy armored/heavy damage types, they will be completely obliterated.
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"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Rawr Cristina
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.03.27 20:15:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Katarlia Simov If you 'fix' missiles against nano-ships then there is pretty much no reason to fly anything than caldari in skirmish PvP, since nano gangs can't touch you and you just fly away from cumbersome slower battleship gangs who you cant kill.
Oh hang on.
Thats your arguament against nanos isn't it ?
Erm, I said more effective than it currently is, not "If you fly Caldari, Nanos are useless" effective. (not that the Nanos can just runaway or anything)
Zealot/Harbinger/Abso are much more effective vs nanos ATM yet you don't see everyone flying Amarr, do you?
Minmatar can hit Nanos just fine too with ACs. May require a falloff rig or two but it's fairly decent nontheless.
The only missile type that can hit most nanos are precision lights fired from a Cerb with missile velocity/exp velocity rigs, but even that dosen't work vs anything moving faster than 5-6km/sec and at the end of the day you're far less useful in a gang than a Vaga. Precision heavies will be lucky to damage something moving even 2km/sec
Though the race that are most "In the cold" so to speak are Gallente, since blasters and drones are pretty much completely ineffective vs nanos barring some very specific setups.
The sole reason nanogangs are so popular is the lack of counters, even to fend them off in most cases. Fitting for speed is fine and all, but when it also makes you immune to practically all weapons fire as well as give you the option to disengage at will then something is wrong imo. Nano gangs should be effective at avoiding blobs and picking off stragglers IMO, but when you get entire gangs ripped apart by a handful of Vagabonds, Huginns and other assorted nanoships, with no loss whatsoever for the nanos, it really brings their effectiveness into question.
I'm not saying counters don't exist, because they do - It's just too few ships are able to utilise them. (nobody's going to care if you don't have a Lachesis or Curse in your gang, but if you don't have a Huginn it's not even worth undocking in a lot of cases) ...
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Sean Faust
Point of No Return
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Posted - 2008.03.27 20:55:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Sean Faust on 27/03/2008 20:58:12 What makes nanos overpowered isn't that they can disengage at will. It isn't the fact that they have exceptional damage mitigation. What makes them overpowered is this:
In order to counter nanos, you need to be flying around in a highly specialized EWAR ship that only 1 in every 30 or so players has the necessary SP to fly effectively, or fit your ship with a highly specialized anti-nano fitting that won't work against 99% of the other non-nano, more "standard" gangs.
I understand that whenever you fit your ship a certain way, you're making it especially vulnerable to a specific type of opponent, but it's just wrong that fitting for anti-nano makes you especially vulnerable to EVERYBODY else.
When you undock you have a choice. You can either fit your ships to be able to counter nano-warfare, in which case they will be utterly useless should you encounter a NON-nano gang and you get ripped apart, or you can give it a more "conventional" fitting that will make you fodder for nanogangs. Battles are over before they even began, and that, folks, is not PvP.
The problem with nanos is that in order to be able to counter nanogangs, you need to specialize so much toward anti-nano that anything else can simply walk all over you, which essentially turns EVE into a simple case of the paper-rock-scissors combat system that plagues pvp combat in other MMO's.
Nano pilots who try to defend themselves by saying there are counters to their ships don't mention this. They don't mention that "you can fit your ship to counter me, but then you'll be a punching bag for everyone else in the game". Also, have you ever attempted to use those proposed counters when you're going up against a gang of 10 or more nanoships? They start to matter a whole lot less, don't they?
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Jovialmadness
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.03.27 21:34:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 27/03/2008 21:36:01 Nanofags and broken Falcons to boot! no one can stop us!!!
edit: changed nanogangs to nanofags. edit: added broken in front of falcons.
Quote: As a side note, i liken capacitor to blood. Without blood, nothing can function in the body. I do NOT like being a race that bleeds quicker than anyone else. yes, i am an alt..Jovial Quote:
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Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.27 22:13:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 27/03/2008 22:13:43
Originally by: Corstaad I really can't beleive how stupid almost all of you are in this thread. A different thread every day which whine will it be tomorrow? This forum is a big pile of crap latelly run by Johnny JoJo's and Lyria. Please bring back blanket goon posts.
Who died and made you god? You got something to say or add to the thread then do it. You think youre so great? Coming into a thread, flaming people and calling them stupid for having a discussion and then relaxing and saying "wow I made a cool post now and said something funny about goon posts aswell". -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
chrisss0r
13 BLOODRAIN SYNDICATE
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Posted - 2008.03.27 23:01:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Sean Faust Edited by: Sean Faust on 27/03/2008 20:58:12 The problem with nanos is that in order to be able to counter nanogangs, you need to specialize so much toward anti-nano that anything else can simply walk all over you, which essentially turns EVE into a simple case of the paper-rock-scissors combat system that plagues pvp combat in other MMO's.
OH NOES ROCK-PAPER-SCISSORS PLAGUES MMOs Don't u even think about what the hell u are writing? How about setting up a mixed gang? Can't believe that players really want rock-rock-rock mechanics in pvp.
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Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.27 23:24:00 -
[57]
Originally by: chrisss0r
OH NOES ROCK-PAPER-SCISSORS PLAGUES MMOs Don't u even think about what the hell u are writing? How about setting up a mixed gang? Can't believe that players really want rock-rock-rock mechanics in pvp.
f u c k i n g piece of s h i t forums ate my post again
Now to topic:
Actually its the other way around. Nanos move eve pvp mechanics into rock rock rock. They either win or they draw. If you belive that is rock paper scissors you are mistaken. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
Lorz0r
You're Doing It Wrong
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Posted - 2008.03.27 23:28:00 -
[58]
Originally by: chrisss0r
Originally by: Sean Faust Edited by: Sean Faust on 27/03/2008 20:58:12 The problem with nanos is that in order to be able to counter nanogangs, you need to specialize so much toward anti-nano that anything else can simply walk all over you, which essentially turns EVE into a simple case of the paper-rock-scissors combat system that plagues pvp combat in other MMO's.
OH NOES ROCK-PAPER-SCISSORS PLAGUES MMOs Don't u even think about what the hell u are writing? How about setting up a mixed gang? Can't believe that players really want rock-rock-rock mechanics in pvp.
Surely the countless people using nano-ships are using the rock-rock-rock mechanics youre talking about? A nano-gang is not a mixed gang. Sure they might be different ships but they all go really really fast and are nigh on impossible to kill.
What's unfair about what he's describing is that if you're nano'd you can engage 90% of all ships in the game and the worst outcome 90% of the time is a draw resulting in the nano warping off. If the target is not specifically setup for anti-nano then he has 0% chance of winning unless the nano makes a colossal error but that could happen to anyone.
If you ask me - nanoships are what's causing this so called rock-rock-rock mechanics you're talking about. If you're not nano then you're anti-nano or you're dead.
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Corstaad
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.03.27 23:46:00 -
[59]
Lyria you need to start a petition to start a whine forum all off you can get together and just whine for hours. I really shouldn't have to point this out your nothing other then a forumtroll like Johnny JoJo. Tomorrow drum up something like Minny Arty boats are OP'd maybe saturday start a huge mega thread on nano domi's. I laughed you even whined in your PvP Video.
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Lyria Skydancer
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.27 23:58:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Corstaad Lyria you need to start a petition to start a whine forum all off you can get together and just whine for hours. I really shouldn't have to point this out your nothing other then a forumtroll like Johnny JoJo.
What are you talking about? Youre gonna go mr goody two shoes on me now? Yeah, I wish we could all behave and post in your manner. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II |
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Angelonico
Series of Tubes
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Posted - 2008.03.28 03:34:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Angelonico on 28/03/2008 03:34:51
Originally by: xxxak The various threads calling out the Falcon and ECM are absurd until Nano-gangs are fixed.
The real problem with EVE is that there is currently a class of ships that can choose when to engage and disengage with 95%+ impunity. The Falcon is perhaps *part* of that problem, but the real ships that are guilty of this characteristic are the Vagas, Ishtars, and nano ceptors.
I agree in part. Neither the strength of ECM (the shining point of caldari) or nano'ed ships needs to be fixed at all. Fly with some ******* brains and both obstacles are not that hard to overcome, eg. kill.
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