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Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.28 20:16:00 - [31] Originally by: Re Mi he picked EvE specifically because he had the option NOT to pvp. He picked the wrong game then. No one here has the option to be completely free from pvp combat, let alone pvp in a general sense.
Marcus TheMartin Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.03.28 20:17:00 - [32] Originally by: Re Mi Originally by: Marcus TheMartin I can respect that you wish to mine I can't respect the inital investment of skills + ship + modules when in highsec = money Sure there is potential of getting shot for just the hell of it but how often pre jihad has it happened? Skills has nothing to do with it. Newb to 2003 old hand, can both be carebears. Its what you want and how they play the game that is important to them. They deserve to have a place in the sandbox. Getting shot pre-jihad was very rare. But getting shot isn't the point. Even if they don't get killed at all, the way they have played the game, for years in some cases, is being taken away. getting shot is the point pvpers lose ships home come you can't?
AndrewRyan Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.28 20:18:00 - [33] Edited by: AndrewRyan on 28/03/2008 20:19:25 Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Try mining for a day with the game having your undivided attention, I don't think you can manage that without your brain protesting. Now try mining while watching a movie or browsing the net. I think the latter is perfectly acceptable and shouldn't be punished by suicide gankings. So you want to be able to play the game in a negligent manner and not paying attention with the game mechanics keeping you safe so you don't have to account for your own safety? Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 28/03/2008 19:41:24 The thing with sandboxes is that no matter how many different shaped buckets and rakes and spades and stuff you give people, and how many different and exciting castles and things they build, none of that is quite as much fun as stomping on them. /Thread ========================================= A Man chooses, a slave obeys.
Hamfast Lightfoot Industries	Posted - 2008.03.28 20:18:00 - [34] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Cloora So stop spewing hate at carebears. We pay our money too so that CCP can continue to develop this wonderful for all of us. I think you are somewhat missing the point. You do all the right stuff to minimise the risks, and accept that there is still some small risk involved. That is hardly being a carebear, that is being a responsible industrialist. A carebear would like to mine in your Hulk with less risk than you have now, and with the game mechanics replacing all the precautions which you take responisbility for in order to mitigate your risks. I think you are mistaken... but then in this game a POS is a good thing... As a Carebear myself, I choose to try to avoid PvP combat... I mine aligned, I tank up as best I can (but I refuse to put a 300 million ISK module on a 300 K isk ship to slow my destruction about .2 seconds), I watch local and have my finger over the ôWarp Toö or ôDockö button... given a chance to target and shoot at a Blinky Red Pod with a 500 million ISK bounty, I wonder if I will warp away first, the criminal is safe... at least from me... ok, 500 million I may try... The normal carebear is what you call a responsible industrialist... What you define as a "Carebear" is just a whiner... same as the person who is posting on here that everyone should be shooting at everyone... Whiners... the folks that say they find missions boring and should be moved, changed, or dropped... Whiners... and when Eve-Online morphs into Whine-Online, I will contract all my trit (both units) to youà sorry if they are 32 jumps apartà --------*****-------- Learn and be informed, because a Politicians worst nightmare is an informed voter... So choose your CSM Candidates wisely
Billy Sastard Life. Universe. Everything. Rejuvenate	Posted - 2008.03.28 20:18:00 - [35] Originally by: Re Mi Originally by: Billy Sastard Quote: For some its not about pvp at all, they want to play in a world that is more innocent, and more predictable, they don't want politics and viciousness and backstabbing and lying and murder and mayhem. Then these people don't want EVE, they want some ideological happyhappyspaceland which, again is not this game that we all signed up for. And yes. Happy happy spaceland. You do not speak for "we all". You speak for you. It isn't up to you to tell other people how they should play the game. Again, according to the people who made this game, it is a sandbox, there should be room for multiple play styles, not just yours. LOL.... I suggest you do some reading of the player guide. -=^=-
Re Mi Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.03.28 20:23:00 - [36] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Cloora So stop spewing hate at carebears. We pay our money too so that CCP can continue to develop this wonderful for all of us. I think you are somewhat missing the point. You do all the right stuff to minimise the risks, and accept that there is still some small risk involved. That is hardly being a carebear, that is being a responsible industrialist. A carebear would like to mine in your Hulk with less risk than you have now, and with the game mechanics replacing all the precautions which you take responisbility for in order to mitigate your risks. I don't think I agree with that. I think everyone in EvE understands risk for the most part. Where the current suicide ganking diverges, is that Carebears no longer face prudent risks, and risks have greatly increased over the past few months. And even if they haven't increased, the perception that they have is enough. Funshine Unlimited - An Industrial Services Corporation
Furb Killer The Peacekeeper Core	Posted - 2008.03.28 20:31:00 - [37] If you dont want to get ganked by goons, go to minmatar space, or accept the risk. You cannot expect to mine afk without any chance to get destroyed. Well actually, you can (okay there is always chance to get destroyed). Hulks are not meant for pvp, so dont think you can survive battleships attacking you. If you want to mine semi afk with little risk, get a battleship. And before i am flamed to dead, the largest disadvantage for semi afk miner is smaller cargohold, but with rigs and cargo expanders that can be partially fixed. Now you dont will get the same yield as with t2 strip miners + t2 crystals, but you still get a decent yield (coming from me who EFT warriord it, never tried it myself). With an effective HP going in the direction of 100k easily, + being able to buy good insurance for your ship, it should be a decent option if you dont want to watch local.
Siresa Talesi Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.03.28 20:31:00 - [38] Originally by: Cloora However, what the OP is trying to tell people is all the HATE that comes to my kind are unwarrented. If you want to shoot at Hulks because you think it woudl be fun thats one thing. But to try to justify it because you hate how we make ISK for very little risk. This, honestly, the issue as I see it is not as much about in-game actions, but about the overall lack of respect or regard for those with a different playstyle. Lately it seems that on this topic, many EVE players are quick to descend to the level of immaturity that they are so fond of accusing WoW players of having. Originally by: Cloora Why do they not target mission runners? What makes them differant then a miner? At least with mining I can get up and help my wife with my kid and I can complete my online schooling ot prepare a lesson plan. Easier targets. Mission runners may not be fit for PvP, but they usually carry more guns than miners. However, continually harassing miners is not exactly the smartest course of action for anyone concerned with long term consequences. Personally, I'd be very interested to see what would happen in the event of an eve-wide "carebear" strike. It would be nigh-impossible to organize, but just imagine what would happen if the miners stopped mining and the builders stopped building. It probably wouldn't even take a majority of these players to cease their activity for a few weeks before supply and demand issues start playing havoc with ship and module prices. Should CCP make rules to keep players from being attacked in highsec? Of course not. But PvPers with common sense should exercise some restraint, and at the very least some respect, if for no other reason than out of a sense of self-preservation for their chosen method of play. Just consider that every "carebear" who quits the game in frustration raises the cost of PvP just that much more. "Space is filled with countless hours of boredom...punctuated by moments of abject terror." - Capn. James T. Kirk, Starfleet Academy
Re Mi Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.03.28 20:38:00 - [39] Originally by: Billy Sastard LOL.... I suggest you do some reading of the player guide. That is about going afk in low sec and 0.0 for the most part. Also, miners by definition of their profession can't go afk, they have to empty their cargo hold every few minutes. Funshine Unlimited - An Industrial Services Corporation
Inconstant Moon Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.28 20:46:00 - [40] Originally by: Re Mi You also need to understand who miners are. Miners are often people who mine while they surf the web and do email. They live busy lives and are quasi afk almost all the time. They often have schedules that don't allow them to work in a large pvp gang, they don' have the time to dedicate to that. They are people who multi task. Its a lifestyle requirement for them to play the game while doing other things. They click a button every couple of minutes in between Youtube videos or doing their laundry. That is another part of the sandbox for many carebears, it is what drives them towards the carebear world. You can say, "they should be paying attention". I reply, "why". Its a sandbox, if thats how they want to play, more power to them. They should be able to do that. There is nothing wrong with that. Very very good post. I have a busy life these days and I can only give the game my undivided attention for short periods of time. Gone are the days of sitting around unemployed smoking the good stuff, now I've got to work and Eve has become an alt-tab game. Make that impossible for me, and I just don't see how I could play anymore. -- CONCORD provides neither consequences nor safety.
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.28 20:51:00 - [41] Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 28/03/2008 20:51:21 Originally by: Re Mi Originally by: Billy Sastard LOL.... I suggest you do some reading of the player guide. That is about going afk in low sec and 0.0 for the most part. It is not. Quote: Don't play the game in AFK mode. This game is not designed with this kind of playing style in mind and you should NEVER consider your ship and character safe while being away from your computer. Quote: Don't expect CONCORD to keep you immune to attacks or ship losses. Like in the real world, law enforcers often arrive too late at the scene of the crime, and even though they able to punish the criminal, they can't always prevent the crime.
Cloora Black River Industries	Posted - 2008.03.28 20:53:00 - [42] Originally by: Siresa Talesi Personally, I'd be very interested to see what would happen in the event of an eve-wide "carebear" strike. It would be nigh-impossible to organize, but just imagine what would happen if the miners stopped mining and the builders stopped building. It probably wouldn't even take a majority of these players to cease their activity for a few weeks before supply and demand issues start playing havoc with ship and module prices. Should CCP make rules to keep players from being attacked in highsec? Of course not. But PvPers with common sense should exercise some restraint, and at the very least some respect, if for no other reason than out of a sense of self-preservation for their chosen method of play. Just consider that every "carebear" who quits the game in frustration raises the cost of PvP just that much more. Heh, yeah pretty much impossible. As soon as supply and demand made the Drakes and Ravens I make increase in price 200% I would walk the picket line and start making ISK hand over fist. LOL
Bellum Eternus Death of Virtue Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.03.28 21:03:00 - [43] Originally by: Re Mi Originally by: Marcus TheMartin I can respect that you wish to mine I can't respect the inital investment of skills + ship + modules when in highsec = money Sure there is potential of getting shot for just the hell of it but how often pre jihad has it happened? Skills has nothing to do with it. Newb to 2003 old hand, can both be carebears. Its what you want and how they play the game that is important to them. They deserve to have a place in the sandbox. Getting shot pre-jihad was very rare. But getting shot isn't the point. Even if they don't get killed at all, the way they have played the game, for years in some cases, is being taken away. Well stated. And to that I say: "boohoo". It isn't being 'taken away', it never existed as such in the first place. No one cared enough about it to do anything until now. Safety in high-sec is an illusion. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Asestorian Domination. Scorched Earth.	Posted - 2008.03.28 21:16:00 - [44] Originally by: Re Mi And yes. Happy happy spaceland. You do not speak for "we all". You speak for you. It isn't up to you to tell other people how they should play the game. Again, according to the people who made this game, it is a sandbox, there should be room for multiple play styles, not just yours. You're essentially saying that the sandbox should be limited for the PvPers. The carebear playstyle does exist, and is supported. But EVE is primarily a PvP based game, and it is a sandbox. You can never in EVE be completely safe outside of a station. If that ever were to happen EVE will have deviated far too much from it's core idea, and CCP won't let that happen, even if other things change. Suicide ganking has existed since EVE began. In fact, it's actually safer now than it ever used to be. You either need to leave the game, or you need to accept that by nature of EVE being a sandbox you cannot ever be truly safe. If you could be then it wouldn't really be a sandbox, because some areas are restricted in some way. Originally by: Siresa Talesi Personally, I'd be very interested to see what would happen in the event of an eve-wide "carebear" strike. It would be nigh-impossible to organize, but just imagine what would happen if the miners stopped mining and the builders stopped building. It probably wouldn't even take a majority of these players to cease their activity for a few weeks before supply and demand issues start playing havoc with ship and module prices. It would probably affect them quite a lot, but at the same time there are a lot of PvPers who do industry on the side as a form of money making. You may find simply that more of them invest in it if the profits have increased. Large 0.0 alliances will be affected very little as in most cases they build everything for themselves anyway. --- MOZO
Nigel Tell Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.28 21:20:00 - [45] Originally by: Re Mi I am getting a bit sick of all the anti-carebear asshattery. With basic precaution, yes it is true you can survive a suicide gank. However, the vitriol and hatred shown towards carebears is what I find annoying. People are acting as if being a carebear should be excluded from the game, as if just because someone likes to mine Veld in a 1.0 they should be punished. Look...Eve is a griefer's paradise. Always has been, always will be. And CCP doesn't really try to hide that it is. The real game to CCP is 0.0, but they try to keep low-sec/high-sec balanced enough so their subs keep growing. It's not easy giving the gankers enough victims available to keep them happy while at the same time giving their victims some chance at playing without being a victim constantly. I don't envy them the task. If CCP were to put up a no non-consensual pvp server, Tranq would empty out of victims in no time. They're never going to do that though, because they want a PVP game. Harsh, cruel...all that stuff. Just try to learn with losing stuff (and time/peace of mind, etc.) or find another game.
Newbear The Scope	Posted - 2008.03.28 21:24:00 - [46] Newbear throws sand into your eyes for 100 damage! You are blind for life! Eve is like a sand box surrounded by quicksand. When you undock, you are instantly ganked. Click here for my High Security POS Service
Re Mi Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.03.28 21:41:00 - [47] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 28/03/2008 20:51:21 Originally by: Re Mi Originally by: Billy Sastard LOL.... I suggest you do some reading of the player guide. That is about going afk in low sec and 0.0 for the most part. It is not. Quote: Don't play the game in AFK mode. This game is not designed with this kind of playing style in mind and you should NEVER consider your ship and character safe while being away from your computer. Quote: Don't expect CONCORD to keep you immune to attacks or ship losses. Like in the real world, law enforcers often arrive too late at the scene of the crime, and even though they able to punish the criminal, they can't always prevent the crime. Anyone can read the link and make up their own mind. Its a "how not to get ganked link", and yes, you should never have the expectation you should be perfectly safe. But you should have expectations about your general security situation and your level of risk. Funshine Unlimited - An Industrial Services Corporation
Re Mi Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.03.28 21:45:00 - [48] Originally by: Newbear Newbear throws sand into your eyes for 100 damage! You are blind for life! Eve is like a sand box surrounded by quicksand. When you undock, you are instantly ganked. The materia on my ship makes me immune to sand. You can throw silicon diborite my way any time though. Funshine Unlimited - An Industrial Services Corporation
Corwain DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2008.03.28 21:47:00 - [49] Eve is a sandbox yes. You're free to build sandcastles, others are free to kick them over. Stop crying when your sandcastle gets kicked over if you didn't adequately protect it. -- Distortion\| Distortion 2 Preview
Nika Vorbarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2008.03.28 21:48:00 - [50] In the distant past, corps used to be able to have as many wardecs as they wanted to pay for. A certain Alliance started to use this to make Empire a target rich environment. People complained and the usual suspects defended it and told them to adapt, it was the way the game was supposed to work. Then the great wardec nerf came. Now we have a similar situation, with similar arguments on both sides. I wonder what kind of response CCP could make that would not break hisec, but would punish extensive suicide ganking. Stopping insurance payouts for ships that are concordokkened has been mentioned several hundred times, but what else do you guys think could work? Maybe increasingly large security hits for multiple non-wartarget attacks? Discuss.
Spoon Thumb Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.28 21:56:00 - [51] I think that every time you take a ship into pvp (every time you lock some other player), there should be a 2% chance none of the weapons or modules work. That's kinda how it is for people in Empire atm. There is a slim but very real chance that they get the bad luck and have it all go down the pan. No way to really get around it without docking up and not playing. --- Or think of it like this. You live in Iraq or Somalia. Some bits are safer than others, some parts, you're fine if you come from the right tribe or know the locals well and are in cahoots. But you're never 100% safe. The rich and skilled get targeted just for the fact they are a success. Everyone keeps their head down but you still are just as likely to get blown up in a random attack as everyone else. If the pvp'ers are the militia's, insurgents and criminals, then the pvp crowd in Eve are just telling the civilians to suck it up or even to like the situation because that is the way it is. People do continue and suck it up not because they get told to by some ahole on forums, but because they still have their dreams and ambitions and are determined not to let said aholes get in the way You ultimately can't justify being in the SA or SS, in actively and knowingly bullying people, by saying everyone else is doing it, or that the victims are of circumstance and you're just part of that circumstance
Re Mi Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.03.28 21:58:00 - [52] Originally by: Nigel Tell Just try to learn with losing stuff (and time/peace of mind, etc.) or find another game. So what you are saying is that the only way to play the game is your way? I play the game how I want. Have I lost ships, you bet, have I been podded, yes. But only rarely and I have never put all of my assets at undue risk. It is virtually impossible for me to lose them all. The greatest danger to my assets is that I make a math error. Perhaps that bothers you. Some people simply find that offensive for some reason. Funshine Unlimited - An Industrial Services Corporation
Asestorian Domination. Scorched Earth.	Posted - 2008.03.28 22:05:00 - [53] Originally by: Re Mi So what you are saying is that the only way to play the game is your way? No, you aren't forced to play the game the PvPer's way. If you did you'd be forced to actively fight people. Instead what's happening is PvPers aren't forced to be unable to PvP in certain areas. One of EVE's main features that CCP likes to talk about is the non-consensual PvP everywhere. If you actually wanted to do it wouldn't be non-consensual. Anyway. All the carebears can leave if they want. All that will happen is that EVE goes back to how it was in the first place: A load of PvPers who not only fight but mine, rat and build everything themselves anyway without any problem, just with less lag because you're not taking up any of the space. Basically, this is a PvP game, and makes no apologies about it. You can play as you want within that, but you cannot expect to have a completely non-PvP area in a PvP game. That's just stupid. I'm sorry if what you want is a space-game where you can be a fluffy carebear all the time if you want, but no such game exists. So either you compromise with EVE, which is a PvP game, not a carebear game, or you quit and wait and hope that a carebear space game will come out some time. --- Quote: Welcome to EVE, a PvP game, where people are - shockingly - allowed to PvP as much as they like.
Billy Sastard Life. Universe. Everything. Rejuvenate	Posted - 2008.03.28 22:25:00 - [54] Contradict yourself much??? Originally by: Re Mi ... you should never have the expectation you should be perfectly safe. Ok, makes sense. Originally by: Re Mi ...But you should have expectations about your general security situation and your level of risk. What? Did you not just... nm -=^=-
RigelKentaurus Flying Tartiflette Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2008.03.28 22:25:00 - [55] Originally by: Asestorian or you quit and wait and hope that a carebear space game will come out some time. And one may appear sooner than expected, CCP may soon have to worry about their income. _________ Someday, EVE may look like this.
Re Mi Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.03.28 22:27:00 - [56] Originally by: Spoon Thumb ...Or think of it like this. You live in Iraq or Somalia... I think that is a good analogy. Although I prefer to think of it as New Jersey. Funshine Unlimited - An Industrial Services Corporation
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.28 22:28:00 - [57] Originally by: Re Mi So what you are saying is that the only way to play the game is your way? I play the game how I want. You're allowed to play the game any way you want, but you aren't guaranteed to be able to play the game in any particular way successfully and in perfect safety just by virtue of wanting to play it that way. You have to deal with, compete with, and try to outsmart the rest of us.
Cogwheel New Eden Credit Bureau	Posted - 2008.03.28 22:33:00 - [58] Originally by: Re Mi he picked EvE specifically because he had the option NOT to pvp. Post lost all credibility right there. Eve has been and always will be pvp to its very core... from market manipulation to suicide ganking, nowhere is safe.
Letouk Mernel Blue Shell Corporation	Posted - 2008.03.28 22:38:00 - [59] Originally by: Cloora However, what the OP is trying to tell people is all the HATE that comes to my kind are unwarrented. [...] Why do they not target mission runners? They DO target mission-runners, what are you talking about? This Goon stuff is just an interlude; read the boards about a month ago, mission runners everywhere complaining about suicide attacks, wreck theft, various bait mechanics. Mission runners are the most targetted of all, lol. A probe ship can ferret out the location of a mission in about 30 seconds, then you're toast. The ganks are for easy money. If you're easy money you'll be ganked. They don't attack miners, haulers, or mission-runners because they hate them. They don't hate them, it's just phat lewts they want. What they HATE is the whining. That's what they hate. And, by the way, PVP'ers whine too when the nerf-bat swings their way, and then it is the carebears telling them to STFU, CIHYS, adapt or die, and so on.
Re Mi Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.03.28 22:39:00 - [60] Edited by: Re Mi on 28/03/2008 22:45:57 Originally by: Asestorian Originally by: Re Mi So what you are saying is that the only way to play the game is your way? No, you aren't forced to play the game the PvPer's way. If you did you'd be forced to actively fight people. Instead what's happening is PvPers aren't forced to be unable to PvP in certain areas. One of EVE's main features that CCP likes to talk about is the non-consensual PvP everywhere. If you actually wanted to do it wouldn't be non-consensual. Anyway. All the carebears can leave if they want. All that will happen is that EVE goes back to how it was in the first place: A load of PvPers who not only fight but mine, rat and build everything themselves anyway without any problem, just with less lag because you're not taking up any of the space. Basically, this is a PvP game, and makes no apologies about it. You can play as you want within that, but you cannot expect to have a completely non-PvP area in a PvP game. That's just stupid. I'm sorry if what you want is a space-game where you can be a fluffy carebear all the time if you want, but no such game exists. So either you compromise with EVE, which is a PvP game, not a carebear game, or you quit and wait and hope that a carebear space game will come out some time. That wasn't what I asked for, and it isn't asked for in almost every thread on this topic. If you acually read what I am saying instead of imagining what I am saying you would understand that I am not advocating an end to pvp against carebears, I am advocating a balanced approach to pvp against carebears, one where you have an expectation of risk. Analogies are terrible, but here is one you might get. Its as if in 0.0 someone found a loophole that let them warp in cap ships into a cyno jammed system. You don't have the expectation of total safety in a cyno jammed system, but you have the expectation that they will have to take out the jammer before they hot drop you with a fleet of dreads setting all your POS into reinforced. Likewise, there has been a general security situation in Empire with limited ganking. Now we have a huge surge, based in part on an abuse of the mechanics of the game, allowing repeated and routine abuse of security status and massive casualties of miners, killing as many as 5-6 at a time. Thats a problem in my opinion. by abuse, I mean griefing. Funshine Unlimited - An Industrial Services Corporation*

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