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Kusha'an	Posted - 2008.04.02 14:06:00 - [31] Edited by: Kusha''an on 02/04/2008 14:07:21 Think outside the box people. Sniper Dominix Highs 6x Drone link Aug Med Named Sensor Booster with range script 4x Omnidirectional Tracking Link Lows Whatever 5x Warden II Rigs Sentry Damage Aug 2x Drone Scope Should give you over 120km of range. * Sniper Vexor/Ishtar** 5x Drone link Aug Sensor Booster w/ Range Script 2/4x Drone Nav Computer Whatever 5x Warrior II Warriors will arrive on target in approx 8 seconds.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.04.02 14:43:00 - [32] Nano ships with ECCM (a single ECCM module makes you twice as hard to jam) MWD + FOFs MWD + Drones Sniper ships Primarying the falcon
welsh wizard	Posted - 2008.04.02 14:49:00 - [33] Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 14:54:18 1. Fly at it, forcing it out or making it cloak means its not jamming you or your mates. Bump it if you can, it does no appreciable damage and turns like a bar of soap so this is a very good option. 2. Be patient, work on its spot with a covert, stupid falcon pilots uncloak all the time coz they think they need to surface for air. If hes had time to make 40,000 bookmarks then that means him/her > you in terms of organisation. Don't confuse that with the ship being overpowered. 3. 2 or 3 snipers will force it out NP, contrary to popular belief there is no such thing as a "perma-jam" or anything closely approximating it. Focussed fire will make it shift its arse very quickly. 4. Fit ECCM 5. Bring an Eos 6. Bring your own. If all of that is lost on you then Lego Star WarsÖ is -----> that way. --------------- you all smell!
Lyria Skydancer	Posted - 2008.04.02 15:31:00 - [34] Please lets see a list of counters to a multi bookmarked 150km falcon that dont involve falcons or eagles. Those are only 2 ships. Tell me what a small-medium sized gang can do if they dont have falcons or eagles: -No they cant chase it, it will either jam or warp to another spot before you reach it to do damage -No you cant send half your gang after it because everyone else will die while youre chasing it without success. Seriously, it would be nice to actually get VIABLE counters like ECCM modules (wich simply arent enough on many ships and are only semi viable on 4+ mid BSs). -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare II
Sokratesz	Posted - 2008.04.02 15:37:00 - [35] Being neuted down is an often overlooked vulnerability of ECM boats - none of them ever fit an injector, and heavy neuts or a curse/failgrim will mess them up just right. Any ECM pilot that knows what he's doing will not be killable solo unless he gets extremely unlucky. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Yes i know i spelled COAD wrong. Stop mailing me about it I refuse to read SHC
Manchurian Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.02 15:38:00 - [36] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 02/04/2008 14:54:18 2. Be patient, work on its spot with a covert, stupid falcon pilots uncloak all the time coz they think they need to surface for air. This comment made me actually laugh out loud, and so I believe deserves to be quoted for people who may miss it. He also had some really positive ways to counter a Falcon
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2008.04.02 15:53:00 - [37] IIRC there's a low-slot mod which boosts sensor strength as well (can't recall the name) that those 3-mid Amarr BS can make use of. Or your sniper ship could simply drop the warp scram and leave that to the other gang members to do; MWD, Cap Booster, ECCM. In fact if you're not going to be tackling, you could even consider dropping the MWD and Cap Booster for Sensor Boosters, dpending on how much you want to specialise the role of the ship (ie: larger gangs). Remember falcons can't re-cloak if they're targeted. Warping to a bookmark will break lock, of course, but if they can do that, so can you. Perma-jamming 4 BS sounds great -shame that there's absolutely no guarantee of this happening. If you have the right racials, and if the enemy gang takes no active countermeasures, you can generally reduce the effectiveness of 3-5 ships by 40-75%. If the Falcon pilot has fitted one of each racial, plus a spare caldari, and the enemy gang has 3 megas, a domi and 2 tempests then the falcon's utility is severely reduced - especially if one of the tempests is sniper-fit with and ECCM fitted. If the enemy fleet is giving up a DPS ship for a Falcon, it's not unreasonable to counter that by fitting an ECCM to one range-fit BS in your gang. Falcon pilots aren't psychic; they've no way to know that the jam on that Apoc failed because it has an ECCM or because that ~60% chance failed. That gives the apoc (or whoever) 20 seconds to lock and shoot the falcon. I'm not sure that a snipoc can 1-shot a Falcon, but it seems like 2 shots will definitely have one well into armour at the least. And of course there are other options as mentioned - nanoships, etc. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Ulstan Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.04.02 17:00:00 - [38] Quote: Please lets see a list of counters to a multi bookmarked 150km falcon First, you use your own multi bookmarks to get very close to the falcon. Then you use one of the following: Nano ships with ECCM (a single ECCM module makes you twice as hard to jam) MWD + FOFs MWD + Drones Or, you can try Sniper ships Primarying the falcon Quote: No they cant chase it, it will either jam or warp to another spot before you reach it to do damage Chase it with something that is resistant to jamming (ECCM fitted) or something that doesn't care about being jammed (drone ship, FOF ship). If it warps away, it's not doing it's locking job.
pandymen The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.04.02 17:27:00 - [39] First off, there are plenty of counters, just because a ship cannot solo the falcon does not mean that no counters exist. You will never meet a falcon solo, and if you do, you are screwed anyway because I guarantee you he is not solo. And why do people constantly talk about how a falcon can permajam 3-4 ships.....? Do people think that the falcon has the room to fit 4 racials of every type? The falcon will fit 4-5 racials, and that is all. So, probably 1 of each and 1 extra caldari. With a jam strength of around 12-13, how do you expect to "permajam" even 4 BS's? You have a good chance of jamming a few each cycle. But when your one minnie jammer fails against the minnie BS, you can't just switch over and jam him with another one since a different type of racial will be horrible against him. So while ECCM is nice, it's hardly the only way to win against a falcon. And since a falcon will usually decloak and immediately apply all his jammers, he has to wait 20 seconds to try to jam the intie that has jetted out and scrammed him. And fyi, if you are in a random roaming gang in a falcon, you are not probably not going to have bookmarks where the fight happens. You will be fighting at 100km out, or 200km if you warp 100km from someone else....but either way, you aren't going to be able to jump around to different bookmarks. So please, don't act like every falcon you encounter gets to warp around to 20 sniper spots when pilots usually only have bm's in their home systems and maybe a system that has been under siege for a while.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.02 17:35:00 - [40] Originally by: pandymen You will never meet a falcon solo, and if you do, you are screwed anyway because I guarantee you he is not solo. Quote: With a jam strength of around 12-13, how do you expect to "permajam" even 4 BS's? You have a good chance of jamming a few each cycle. I have good skills and can reliably jam 2-3 non-eccm fit battleships. If anyone's fitting ECCM, they'll end up acting as an "ECM sponge" as I desperately use up the "wrong" jammers on them to score a jam. Sometimes it works, most times it doesn't. The big problem is that nobody fits ECCM and even if they do, they forget to shoot the Falcon. I've also seen people fit ECCM and then fit close range bruiser ships - and then complain that they couldn't kill the 150km away falcon. Imagine that. Quote: So while ECCM is nice, it's hardly the only way to win against a falcon. And since a falcon will usually decloak and immediately apply all his jammers, he has to wait 20 seconds to try to jam the intie that has jetted out and scrammed him. Interceptors have notoriously low sensor strength. I've never missed a jam cycle against one. Quote: And fyi, if you are in a random roaming gang in a falcon, you are not probably not going to have bookmarks where the fight happens. You will be fighting at 100km out, or 200km if you warp 100km from someone else....but either way, you aren't going to be able to jump around to different bookmarks. So please, don't act like every falcon you encounter gets to warp around to 20 sniper spots when pilots usually only have bm's in their home systems and maybe a system that has been under siege for a while. QFMFT! And if they do have those 20 sniper BM's - they put some effort into preparing that battlefield... and you got pwnt by preparation. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Mahn AlNouhm	Posted - 2008.04.02 18:29:00 - [41] Amen, Pandy. My falcon is usually fit with 2 mini, 2 gallente, 1 amarr, and 1 caldari on a given day in a roaming gang. If I have time to prepare and I know what you're bringing, you're in for some trouble, but how often does that really happen? Leave it be. It's fine. Competently flown, you're screwed, but the same can be said about any decent ship. . . . Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.04.02 18:41:00 - [42] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: RuleoftheBone Leaving the Amarr/overpowered nonsense out...any speedy Recon or HAC (especially recon) can easily lock up a Falcon within a few seconds of it decloaking. This prevents them from cloaking and forces them to warp to a new spot which screws the jam cycles. Presuming of course you don't get counter-jammed . The core issue is more that: -There already is a counter module so we dont have to have a specific ship incase a specific ship comes up against us. -We want it to work well enough. -We want ECCM to work. -It doesnt work. To summarize your logic: ECM works, and works well in specialized ships. Damps do not work well even in specailized ships. ECCM works but not well enough. Sniper ships don't work because. . . (this bit is unclear to me, a falcon doesn't have an infinite supply of jammers afterall) Therefore, the only solution you suggest with any regularity is - break the thing that works. MAYBE the solution is to fix the stuff that doesn't work before you swing the nerf bat. Afterall, this line of thinking is what put Amarr in the coffin ship they've apparently occupied ever since the stacking nerfs.
Haradgrim	Posted - 2008.04.02 20:37:00 - [43] Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: RuleoftheBone Leaving the Amarr/overpowered nonsense out...any speedy Recon or HAC (especially recon) can easily lock up a Falcon within a few seconds of it decloaking. This prevents them from cloaking and forces them to warp to a new spot which screws the jam cycles. Presuming of course you don't get counter-jammed . The core issue is more that: -There already is a counter module so we dont have to have a specific ship incase a specific ship comes up against us. -We want it to work well enough. -We want ECCM to work. -It doesnt work. To summarize your logic: ECM works, and works well in specialized ships. Damps do not work well even in specailized ships. ECCM works but not well enough. Sniper ships don't work because. . . (this bit is unclear to me, a falcon doesn't have an infinite supply of jammers afterall) Therefore, the only solution you suggest with any regularity is - break the thing that works. MAYBE the solution is to fix the stuff that doesn't work before you swing the nerf bat. Afterall, this line of thinking is what put Amarr in the coffin ship they've apparently occupied ever since the stacking nerfs. First of all damps do work, on my manticore they are the sole reason I live through most fights. That said, yesterday I had a falcon warp in on a fight where we were engaging a BS and 1 support (I can't remember what), fortunately, I was able to lock him before he could lock me (I had positioned myself 80km off the gate we were at in the direction of the only other gate in the system), I got my damps on him and he couldn't lock anyone, I fired off a round of missiles and he warped out, warped back in (tried going to a planet I think to change his warp in direction) but he was still in range of my damps. Now, I'm hardly trying to say that a Manticore is a counter to a Falcon (although its not exactly useless), but the truth of the matter is; superior numbers + adapting your tactics on the fly = win Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
VicturusTeSaluto Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.04.02 20:58:00 - [44] the only good counter to an ecm ship is another ecm ship.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.02 20:59:00 - [45] Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto the only good counter to an ecm ship is another ecm ship. Only if you lack imagination. :) -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.04.02 21:43:00 - [46] Sneeze on it at watch it explode. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
MalVortex	Posted - 2008.04.03 02:08:00 - [47] Each ECCM modules halves the probability of being jammed. Your turn it on and ignore it. Its one of the most mind-numbingly easy counters in the game.
Niffetin Omni Research	Posted - 2008.04.03 04:21:00 - [48] Edited by: Niffetin on 03/04/2008 04:21:17 Originally by: MalVortex Each ECCM modules halves the probability of being jammed. Your turn it on and ignore it. Its one of the most mind-numbingly easy counters in the game. Try it in reality, it isn't that simple... A single Blackbird can keep 2 ECCM'd ships permajammed. Just counter the Falcon with a Falcon, that is what we do. Or a Tachabaddon The Falcon will just laugh at your pathetic Eagle shooting at it --- Teeheee! mematar's Video Archive
Crazy Tasty	Posted - 2008.04.03 04:31:00 - [49] Originally by: Sokratesz Being neuted down is an often overlooked vulnerability of ECM boats - none of them ever fit an injector, and heavy neuts or a curse/failgrim will mess them up just right. Any ECM pilot that knows what he's doing will not be killable solo unless he gets extremely unlucky. This. You don't need anything fancy, just an ECCM'd nano ship. Curse works perfectly, Ishtar is good to, as a jam on it doesn't mean to much. Been flying a Falcon for years now, and there are certain situations you really have to watch your ass, nano ships are the main one. That said, if the Falcon pilot is any good, the best you can hope for is to chase him off. ------ Originally by: Garmon people using warp core stabilizers are generally more skilled than people not using warp corer stabilizers
Ulstan Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.04.03 04:56:00 - [50] Quote: Try it in reality, it isn't that simple... A single Blackbird can keep 2 ECCM'd ships permajammed. Guys, think. A single ECCM module isn't going to grant you complete immunity to a ship using 6 med slots, 3 low slots, and 2 rig slots to jam you with. That would be absurd. A single ECCM module makes you twice as hard to jam That's huge. I'd kill for a single module that made my tank twice as hard :p People have wildly unrealistic expectations about how strong ECCM should be. They want to completely nullify an entire specialized ship with just one or two med slots. Gimme a break. Can I nullify a megathrons dps with 2 med slots too please?
Hans Angry	Posted - 2008.04.03 05:44:00 - [51] Edited by: Hans Angry on 03/04/2008 05:47:23 best tactic, blob it!... no, if you have a t1 blackbird with a sensor booster on it, that would do the job plenty well, not that i recommend that, or that its a good idea, but it works. still, blobbing is the best tactic Originally by: Ulstan Quote: Try it in reality, it isn't that simple... A single Blackbird can keep 2 ECCM'd ships permajammed. Guys, think. A single ECCM module isn't going to grant you complete immunity to a ship using 6 med slots, 3 low slots, and 2 rig slots to jam you with. That would be absurd. A single ECCM module makes you twice as hard to jam That's huge. I'd kill for a single module that made my tank twice as hard :p People have wildly unrealistic expectations about how strong ECCM should be. They want to completely nullify an entire specialized ship with just one or two med slots. Gimme a break. Can I nullify a megathrons dps with 2 med slots too please? and i can nullify a mega's dps with just 2 mid slots, its called, DOUBLE CAPITAL SHIELD BOOSTER, it fits best on the osprey Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content. And it was ten times too big :p If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Bellum Eternus	Posted - 2008.04.03 05:45:00 - [52] Originally by: Liang Nuren Curse is the anti-falcon, but an ECCM fit Ishtar would stand a good chance of bbq'ing the Falcon before it can warp out. -Liang LOL, no. What kind of Eve are you playing where a Falcon uncloaks inside of drone range? Even a max skilled Isthar with 100km+ drone control range? Tell me some more fairytales... The only effective defence against a Falcon is n+1 Falcons of your own. Period. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Hans Angry	Posted - 2008.04.03 05:48:00 - [53] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Liang Nuren Curse is the anti-falcon, but an ECCM fit Ishtar would stand a good chance of bbq'ing the Falcon before it can warp out. -Liang LOL, no. What kind of Eve are you playing where a Falcon uncloaks inside of drone range? Even a max skilled Isthar with 100km+ drone control range? Tell me some more fairytales... The only effective defence against a Falcon is n+1 Falcons of your own. Period. BLOB! Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content. And it was ten times too big :p If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Bellum Eternus	Posted - 2008.04.03 05:52:00 - [54] Originally by: Ulstan Quote: Try it in reality, it isn't that simple... A single Blackbird can keep 2 ECCM'd ships permajammed. Guys, think. A single ECCM module isn't going to grant you complete immunity to a ship using 6 med slots, 3 low slots, and 2 rig slots to jam you with. That would be absurd. A single ECCM module makes you twice as hard to jam That's huge. I'd kill for a single module that made my tank twice as hard :p People have wildly unrealistic expectations about how strong ECCM should be. They want to completely nullify an entire specialized ship with just one or two med slots. Gimme a break. Can I nullify a megathrons dps with 2 med slots too please? Increasing my chance to not be jammed from 5% to 10% means f#ck all in my book. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Mo Steel	Posted - 2008.04.03 05:53:00 - [55] Originally by: Ulstan Quote: Try it in reality, it isn't that simple... A single Blackbird can keep 2 ECCM'd ships permajammed. Guys, think. A single ECCM module isn't going to grant you complete immunity to a ship using 6 med slots, 3 low slots, and 2 rig slots to jam you with. That would be absurd. A single ECCM module makes you twice as hard to jam That's huge. I'd kill for a single module that made my tank twice as hard :p People have wildly unrealistic expectations about how strong ECCM should be. They want to completely nullify an entire specialized ship with just one or two med slots. Gimme a break. Can I nullify a megathrons dps with 2 med slots too please? If they're ECM, and he has no drones. ;) ----- Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Want a sig made? Eve-Mail me, signatures made for 5 million isk each.
Mel Gibbson Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.04.03 06:13:00 - [56] ECCM makes you twice as hard to jam yes. But in reality.. IT SUCKS. a) As said above, doubling the time you are not jammed from 5% to 10% is crap. b) Most ships already have a severe lack of midslots c) ECM is very effective. So yea, get a falcon alt pls.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2008.04.03 06:22:00 - [57] Originally by: Bellum Eternus LOL, no. What kind of Eve are you playing where a Falcon uncloaks inside of drone range? Even a max skilled Isthar with 100km+ drone control range? Tell me some more fairytales... The only effective defence against a Falcon is n+1 Falcons of your own. Period. What kind of Eve are you playing where you simply roll over and die just because an enemy ship uncloaked 100km off? Also, I cover 100km extremely quickly in my Ishtar - a Vagabond does it even faster. Sentinels and interceptors even faster. If you drop an interceptr in his lap, he will warp out or die. Seriously, you're simply more interested in whining than you are in actually doing anything to save your ship. Bellum, you make me sick. You're twice as bad as any carebearing Raven pilot that you've ganked, because you know how to defend yourself, and instead simply come running to the forum. Some "PVP'er". -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Gark32	Posted - 2008.04.03 06:35:00 - [58] Edited by: Gark32 on 03/04/2008 06:36:03 i'm a low-sp pilot, only about 6mil, but i've been useful to my corp since i had 1.5mil. how? Blackbird with 1 sebo, 2 ECCM, and 1 Gravimetric Backup array I. Sensor strength of 88. that means that a max-skill falcon pilot will have a 16% chance to jam me with any given module, while i have about a 45% to jam him. it's retardedly simple, and it doesn't take a 'falcon alt', it just takes common sense and the willingness to not be the pewpew guy. edited for weird language filters. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Mel Gibbson Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.04.03 06:59:00 - [59] BB's are useful and all.. however, Falcon > Blackbird Thats why we say get a falcon alt. Not that your strategy with the blackbird is wrong (good job btw)... but if you're gonna be in a blackbird, you definitely want to train up for that falcon at the end of the day.
Delichon The First Foundation Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2008.04.03 07:07:00 - [60] Originally by: Gark32 Blackbird with 1 sebo, 2 ECCM, and 1 Gravimetric Backup array I. Sensor strength of 88. That's just brilliant. Put 2 ECCM on a nano-Lachesis and watch Falcon pilots trying ECM you while you approach them and aggro the drones. And Falcon WILL be ECMing you, because 1 damps puts him outside of working distance forever. Man, I didn't thought I would find a nice idea in a general "nerf-Falcon!!!" thread, but this one wins the thread. P.S. Too all cry babies - look at what a Rook was for the last year or so. That's right - exactly what a Falcon is now, except for the cloak. Same ECM strength, same range, same everything. "Perma-jamming" from "150 km away" has been in the game forever, you just chose to cry about it just recently. ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. Next time they are going to nerf you directly. Eve Forums.

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