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Fuel Pellets - streamlining the fuelling experience

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CCP Greyscale C C P	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:45:00 - [1] Edited by: CCP Greyscale on 03/04/2008 17:52:44 Ok, so weÆve been knocking around a bunch of ideas relating to starbases and so on this week, and one thing that came up as an unnecessary complication of the system is the multiple fuel types needed for each tower. The Liquid Ozone and Heavy water both serve a distinct purpose, and we need at least one other general fuel type to make the cost/benefit equations work according to the design. ThereÆs no explicit design need though for towers themselves to burn six different fuel types (Racial Isotopes, Enriched Uranium, Mechanical Parts, Coolant, Oxygen and Robotics) at a constant rate. That said, we donÆt want to disrupt the current mechanics too much, or make any radical changes to the principles behind starbase fuelling until we have the opportunity to revisit the broader set of mechanics. We have therefore come up with a proposal to reduce the logistical complexity of actually fuelling towers (starting with opening your fuel storage receptacle and ending with placing the fuel in the fuel bay). The key point is that we create four racial ôfuel pelletsö, which replace the isotopes and NPC commodities in the starbase fuel bay. They are manufactured, using blueprints, from the relevant isotope type and NPC commodities (quantities below). You then just pop in Heavy Water, Liquid Ozone and fuel pellets, and the starbase runs as normal. A requirement of this going in sooner rather than later is that it doesnÆt require any changes to the underlying code. One upshot of this is that all starbases have to be migrated across to using fuel pellets rather than commods û if we go ahead with this, you will not be able to fuel towers directly with isotopes and commodities. Now for the numbers! One run of the blueprint will need the following materials, and will output 80 fuel pellets: Isotopes: 452 Enriched Uranium: 4 Oxygen: 28 Mech Parts: 8 Coolant: 4 Robotics: 4 Towers will consume pellets according to the following scheme: Large: 80/hour Medium: 40/hour Small: 20/hour Large Faction 1: 70/hour Medium Faction 1: 35/hour Small Faction 1: 17/hour Large Faction 2: 60/hour Medium Faction 2: 30/hour Small Faction 2: 15/hour (Faction 1 is Blood et al, Faction 2 is Dark Blood et al) YouÆll notice if you run the math that this results in some towers consuming slightly more fuel per cycle than they do currently; if weÆre going to have a single pellet for each isotope we need to either round up or round down due to imperfect scaling between tower types, and rounding down isnÆt really something we want to do here. The 80/40/20 progression lets us keep the 4:2:1 ratio while still rounding cleanly with both sov bonuses. This is something weÆre considering purely as a usability boost to make actually fuelling towers less painful, so weÆre asking you all whether you think the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. ItÆs not designed to decrease the logistical load at all or to change the major mechanisms of fuelling. Is this something youÆd like to see ingame or should we shelve the idea? As a bonus question, Fuel Pellets or Fuel Bricks?


CCP Abathur C C P	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:50:00 - [2] Edited by: CCP Abathur on 03/04/2008 17:50:27 Originally by: CCP Greyscale As a bonus question, Fuel Pellets or Fuel Bricks? Fuel Bricks '08! \o/ Someone should make sigs. Abathur Game Designer "Tux did it!"

grgjegb gergerg School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:51:00 - [3] Well, if you use pellets, you should be able to jigger around the numbers to make them the same, right? If they're integers, yeah, that kinda screws it, but if they're floats, you should be fine. Or... just make the pellets really small and have it burn a lot of them instead. Sounds like a good idea though. Maybe you could go through and convert the existing fuel in towers to pellets the first time, as a freebie? Then people can move out the leftovers and move in more pellets on the next run.

CCP Hammer C C P	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:56:00 - [4] Originally by: grgjegb gergerg ... How do you pronounce your name? I can just picture the FC on voice coms "TARGET GERBAHJAHGOB GERGERBURGER!!!!!"

Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.04.03 18:10:00 - [5] I love this idea, it'd make juggling fuel so much more easy. It might even spawn a small sub-industry that produces the pellets/granulate/bricks/briquettes/rods/mentos. -------- Ideas for: Mining Clouds
Reecoh Soltar Exotic Dancer Talent Agency United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.04.03 18:31:00 - [6] Edited by: Reecoh Soltar on 03/04/2008 18:33:43 What kind of POS array could these be built in? Component? What would the base build time be for a run? What skills are you considering for the BPOs? You'd need to let everyone know well ahead of time so folks could skill up to use the new BPOs when they were introduced. Hate to have a POS go down b/c it was low when the patch hit and no one could make the fuel. I'm not sure this is a major improvement, since it introduces an extra step and requires a bit more logistical planning (i.e. making sure you build enough before the fuel date). Not to mention requiring the occasional use of a manufacture slot. Those seem like fair trades though for a simplified process at the tower itself. I'd like to see the towers simply tell you the optimal mix to use on the Manage Tower UI. The two combined might be the real win Edit: Fuel Katamari?
grgjegb gergerg	Posted - 2008.04.03 18:54:00 - [7] Originally by: CCP Hammer Originally by: grgjegb gergerg ... How do you pronounce your name? I can just picture the FC on voice coms "TARGET GERBAHJAHGOB GERGERBURGER!!!!!" Lol, just a scout alt that happens to be at the top of my "post as" list on the forums. I pounded the keyboard.
Da'iel Zehn Suune Core Operations	Posted - 2008.04.03 19:18:00 - [8] This is a great idea! I like fuel bricks better, or some other term. Pellets just remind me of sheep or something. The BPOs will cost how much? -- DZ's website
Cailais	Posted - 2008.04.03 21:40:00 - [9] Sounds an excellent idea. Fuel Rods is also a far better name. C. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Improved Low Sec Idea!!
Max Teranous The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.04 09:13:00 - [10] Edited by: Max Teranous on 04/04/2008 09:14:36 It's a fine idea in concept, with a few other things that need to be considered: a) Build time. A very low build time minimizes the issues with finding a manufacturing slot. Your intention is to ease the process, so making the new middle step as painless as possible would be good. b) Wastage of the BPO. Either zero wastage or a very low ME time so that perfect prints can be researched quickly IMO. Same reason as above, make the new step easy for POS fuelers. c) Volume of the pellets. The ingredient list comes to 123.8 m3, which is pretty rubbish as round numbers go. Leave it the same, or round down or up? Having a vol of 120 m3 seems nice, it's a small boost to how many you can fit in a tower which offsets the fact that some of the towers take slightly more fuelling in this proposal. d) Implementation. Releasing the BPO a few weeks/the patch before the change to allow research and building of pellets to take place seems reasonable, ditto as someone else posted to convert existing stocks of fuel in towers to stop them going offline as the change is made. Fake edit: And yeah, Fuel Rods is a good name Max
Zaphroid Eulthran Imperial Visions	Posted - 2008.04.04 11:25:00 - [11] Hmm, I like the idea, and second (or is it 5th by now) the Fuel Rods name. I assume its safe to assume the volume of a fuel rod will be equal to the sum of its components? As for the manufacturing of them, if the volumes are equal and npc components are only available in empire there should be no need to have them produced at a POS. Would the racial charters still be burned in High security POSes as before? Hi-Sec Industry NEEDS Mini Freighters <- not T2 bazillion ISK alliance toys
Eleana Tomelac	Posted - 2008.04.04 11:51:00 - [12] I want fuel pills, my POS is sick! I hope we can build those things very very quickly in some kind of POS manufacturing array that would be cheap (I only fuel it, I never use the arrays appart from the ship hangar and corp hangar... Don't ask me about manufacturing in a POS!). Oh wait, or add a fuel pill array! This way, either you build the pills in station or you build them in this cheap new module that should use very little POS ressources, have a low anchoring time and have a very low onlining time (so we can come with the fuel, online the module, make pills, feed the POS). I'm all for such system, I remember a few time when drunk people fuelled the POS and forgot uranium or oxygen or something and we had to do an emergency refuel! At least with pills, people can keep drinking beer in their eve beer glass while refuelling! -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Assault Frigates MK II
mamolian	Posted - 2008.04.04 12:09:00 - [13] Interesting idea. Should be completely hilarious watching all those directors n ceo's spamming the factories with fuel pellet builds ----------- Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
ZaKma Seraphin Technologies Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.04.04 12:40:00 - [14] Fuel rods! ✖ Arachnophobia ✖
Mynchko Atoch Atoch Family Holdings	Posted - 2008.04.04 12:42:00 - [15] Manufacturing of Fuel Pellets with their high radioactivity could have onerous safety regulations in empire space and in NPC station Factory slots. The dangers from the highly radioactive nature of the work can be ameliorated by production in POS arrays .. or in places that CONCORD's writ doesn't run .. ie .. Player Built stations. Mess with the production bonuses .. make it far cheaper/faster to produce them outside of empire. Maybe introduce a black market in them Certified Quality Assured Official Fuel Pellets legal in Empire. And home brew ones, with an appropriate degree of illegality manufactured in places where safety precautions are unheard of. Two Items. Two BPOs. Significantly extra gameplay and market complexity.
maarud	Posted - 2008.04.04 12:59:00 - [16] You can kiss factory slots good bye. I personally not quite sure I see the point. Yeah sure, you'd have an easier time working out what the fuel amount is for say 20d, but most people have that covered anyway via some means or another. So now instead of taking all the fuels to teh POS, you've got to find a free factory slot somewhere in empire, build the fuel, which takes X time and then ship it to your POS. Of course you could just go to a empire hub and buy the fuels from people who are making them to sell off as profit, but then you can do that anyway now with the NPC goods. Also, how are you going to switch it over? Are you going to release the BPO's say like 2-3 weeks in advance so people can build the pellets before the switch? I mean, it would be kind of funny to see every POS in eve go off line till the owners can build some fuel pellets, but I don't the owners would find it amusing so much. Its a good idea, but with the build times/factory slots its gonna be iffy. It might just make everyone's logistical lives a hell of alot worse. Maarud. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Proudly a Ex-BYDI member <t20> i'd rather have a python in my pants than a sle
Tarron Sarek Cadien Cybernetics	Posted - 2008.04.04 13:57:00 - [17] Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 04/04/2008 14:04:08 Originally by: maarud I personally not quite sure I see the point. Yeah sure, you'd have an easier time working out what the fuel amount is for say 20d, but most people have that covered anyway via some means or another. That was pretty much my initial thought. Imho it dumbs the game down a bit. Less though (figuring out the amounts), more work (find slot, move fuel, build rods, move rods). edit: Wouldn't it be better to let the POS calculate and display the required amount of Liquid Ozone and Heavy water? I know there are POS planners out there, but just for some simple calculations I don't use a third party tool, so this is still an inconvenience, which could be removed. ___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well - Please stop using the word 'nerf' Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters
mamolian Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.04.04 15:11:00 - [18] Why not dumb it down further.. and get rid of racial isotopes -----------
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.04.04 16:33:00 - [19] I love this idea. Go for it guys. Pleeeaaaase do this!!!
Vily Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.04.04 17:08:00 - [20] three things. 1) build time must be BEYOND quick. AKA less than a thirty seconds per run OR LESS. otherwise you'll find every manufacturing slot in the whole of eve crammed with fuel rods. 2) while i understand the simplicity (lets help people aspect) your INCREASING the cost or running towers. fuel rods will sell for 5-10% more than thier build cost. and lets be honest, most people buy their fuel. you can say build it yourself! but because i have to use factory slots and a bpo there is increased value in the fuel rod. 3) your doing the opposite of what you set out to do. your making things more difficult rather than easier. currently i have to spend 2minutes using MYPOS program to calculate what i need for fuel. so with this change it will only take me 30sec to calculate how many rods i need but at increased cost, and increased cost on everything else in game because of decreased manufacturing slots -
Tiberius Xavier	Posted - 2008.04.04 17:21:00 - [21] Vily, I don't know if I agree with #2 and #3. I think it would simplify what is needed to fuel a tower, but you are right: Charters, Strontium Clathrates, Liquid Ozone and Heavy Water are still needed. As for #2, it creates another great opportunity for industrialists in Empire to make isk. Where I have a concern regarding the fuel rods (the name I like too) are: 1) We are still beholden on Empire commodities to maintain towers *) Questions of size (m3) needs addressing. It is taxing on logistics already. 2) If the rods are racially specific, what would be the wastage for reprocessing and rebuilding the other type of rod? Effectively this would require either building in 0.0, or overprocuring oxygen, uranium, robotics, mechanical parts, etc. to stock on the various types. 3) Would all the fuel in existing towers be converted to the appropriate fuel rods upon upgrade of the server? 4) Can a module be created to build these rods at a POS thereby alleviating the rare manufacturing slots. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Tarron Sarek	Posted - 2008.04.04 18:06:00 - [22] Originally by: Tiberius Xavier 4) Can a module be created to build these rods at a POS thereby alleviating the rare manufacturing slots. This illustrates the issue at hand. The fuel is at the POS, but you can't use it right away. Not exactly what I'd call streamlining. Ok I have to admit a bit of differentiation is needed. Fuel rods would probably be a positive change for large corporations and alliances, because it would simplify refuelling of many POS'es. The preparation, i.e. researching the fuel rod BPO, moving fuel, producing the rods and calculating the amounts is more work than currently needed, but it's pretty much a one time effort. So the relation between the actual refuelling runs and the preparation work determines whether or not a player or group of players benefit from this idea. For single POS owners it's quite likely not an improvement. ___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well - Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like 'nerf' Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam
Rhaegor Stormborn	Posted - 2008.04.04 18:33:00 - [23] For those of us that live in 0.0 out of POSes without any stations this will be a huge pain the ass if we can not still choose to use non-pellet fuel as we maintain a substantial volume of POS fuel in 0.0 and would have to have it all hauled back to empire to conversion to the new pellet based fuel. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Volition Cult Recruitment Post
Wesley Baird	Posted - 2008.04.04 18:34:00 - [24] Wish the pellets would be generic, so with the bpo's you could use any isotope and produce fuel for any tower...that would save time. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Goumindong	Posted - 2008.04.04 18:36:00 - [25] Edited by: Goumindong on 04/04/2008 18:38:07 So what is the point of the change? Because to me, it looks like, in your quest to make things simpler and easier, you have simply added a step inbetween buy and haul. This doesn't make it less complex, it makes it more complex. That is, unless we are compressing these things, which only means you can haul more of it and put more into the starbase. You still have to do the math, except now you do it during production instead of doing it before hauling, whop-de-do. Short answer: This doesn't solve anything, doesn't make anything less complex, and is fairly stupid as a whole. The problems with starbase fueling is that its even required at all, it serves no ingame purpose but to bore the hell out of your players. Logistics needs to be about getting ships and ammunition to the front, not about running fuels everywhere in your system[because, if you can't be bothered to fuel it how could you be bothered to defend it? combined with making POS's actually vulnerable to attack(to make them useless rather than destroyed]. The problem is not solved by making it more complex. Originally by: mamolian Why not dumb it down further.. and get rid of fuel altogether Fixed that for you. http://eve-files.com/dl/154147 Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Vote Goumindong for CSM[/url]
Ethen Bejorn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.04 18:55:00 - [26] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 04/04/2008 18:38:07 So what is the point of the change? Because to me, it looks like, in your quest to make things simpler and easier, you have simply added a step inbetween buy and haul. This doesn't make it less complex, it makes it more complex. That is, unless we are compressing these things, which only means you can haul more of it and put more into the starbase. You still have to do the math, except now you do it during production instead of doing it before hauling, whop-de-do. Short answer: This doesn't solve anything, doesn't make anything less complex, and is fairly stupid as a whole. The problems with starbase fueling is that its even required at all, it serves no ingame purpose but to bore the hell out of your players. Logistics needs to be about getting ships and ammunition to the front, not about running fuels everywhere in your system[because, if you can't be bothered to fuel it how could you be bothered to defend it? combined with making POS's actually vulnerable to attack(to make them useless rather than destroyed]. The problem is not solved by making it more complex. Originally by: mamolian Why not dumb it down further.. and get rid of fuel altogether Fixed that for you. You are a "good" Goon.
Wesley Baird D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.04 18:56:00 - [27] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 04/04/2008 18:38:07 So what is the point of the change? Because to me, it looks like, in your quest to make things simpler and easier, you have simply added a step inbetween buy and haul. This doesn't make it less complex, it makes it more complex. That is, unless we are compressing these things, which only means you can haul more of it and put more into the starbase. You still have to do the math, except now you do it during production instead of doing it before hauling, whop-de-do. Short answer: This doesn't solve anything, doesn't make anything less complex, and is fairly stupid as a whole. The problems with starbase fueling is that its even required at all, it serves no ingame purpose but to bore the hell out of your players. Logistics needs to be about getting ships and ammunition to the front, not about running fuels everywhere in your system[because, if you can't be bothered to fuel it how could you be bothered to defend it? combined with making POS's actually vulnerable to attack(to make them useless rather than destroyed]. The problem is not solved by making it more complex. Originally by: mamolian Why not dumb it down further.. and get rid of fuel altogether Fixed that for you. I agree 100%, make some benefits for this extra step...allow any isotope to be used to make a generic pellet...and make the m3 of the pellets smaller than the current fuel load by 50%...then you have given people some reason to implement another step, because without any clear benefit this is an additional time sink to a job that is already basically a soul sucking timesink...
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.04.04 19:24:00 - [28] Make fuel rods reprocess into 'Fuel Stubs' and the factional isotopes. Make blueprints that can turn 'Fuel Stubs' into Fuel Rods with factional isotopes. Make 'Fuel Stubs' reprocess into their fuel components Make blueprints for 'Fuel Stubs' Add a Reprocessing Plant to the POS Structures Add a new POS Structure for building Fuel Rods and Stubs or make them producible in a normal equipment assembly array. Reduce the volume of Fuel Rods by a certain percentage to balance the additional production step (and cost increase) compared to their components. Add a star civilization kind of game mechanic to sovereignty that allows alliances to produce their own commodities (and make those sources of commodities destroyable by small(ish) gangs to encourage small gang combat). I think that should cover most things. Oh, maybe remove sovereignty from POSes to eliminate redundant POS spam. shrugs -------- Ideas for: Mining Clouds
Seiji Hannah Death of Virtue Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.04.04 20:18:00 - [29] This does make more sense than current associated hassle with all the different components, however - name them "Fuel Rods" not "Fuel Pellets" and definetly not "Fuel Bricks" please. Also it seems that this change would be made even better by removing the differences between racial-specific components. Question : was the naming idea hatched during somebodies insightfull private time in the bathroom ?
Bane Glorious GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.04 20:29:00 - [30] I would assume that the devs intend for empire industrialists to handle the extra work with manufacturing fuel pellets/pills/bricks/canisters/rods, not the consumers themselves. People in 0.0 would just have to find a small hub that has fuel rods, buy as much as needed, and haul them away. This would be in lieu of making a series of jumps around a region to pick up each individual fuel type and keeping track of it all. It seems that it would have the biggest benefit to small alliances or corps, which is good, as 0.0 needs more accessibility for casual players, and so it seems like it could improve things, but I can still think of a couple flaws. First, currently people can (can, even if they don't really) compress ice with a Rorqual and take it into deep 0.0, but it appears at this point that you can't compress these fuel rods. What would be the point of compessed ice then, except for delivering large quantities of fuel for capital ship jumping only? And another thing, the extra cost due to the manufacturing stage and so forth is kind of cruel. It's already pretty expensive to maintain a few towers, ISK wise. And then there's the possibility of clogging up factory slots in empire; perhaps there could be separate fuel rod manufacturing slots in stations, similar to booster production slots?

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