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Fuel Pellets - streamlining the fuelling experience

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Alski Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.22 23:41:00 - [121] Just a quick idea, partly based on my previous one: Instead of having 4 different types of pellets/cells/rods/whatever of the 4 different isotopes, you could have the racial isotopes as the only separate fuel, and have NPC fuels + LO + heavy water cooked into pellets, and have the pellets consumed at the rate that tower PG&CPU use requires. Advantages: -Only one fuel cell type required for all POSs. -Only two different fuels required per POS – isotopes and fuel cells. -HUGE reduction in required end user maths for proper full balancing. -Makes fuelling an even easier process than CCPs proposal in the OP. -If balanced properly, shouldn’t change the demand for HW, LO or isotopes at all. Balance issues: -Possibly less running cost for very lightly utilised towers. (pg/cpu use) -Possible higher running cost for highly utilised towers. (pg/cpu use) -Larger amount of ISK sunk into the NPC market (at least from deathstars and other highly utilised towers, could possibly balance out with the savings from lowly utilised towers) note: the higher/lower running costs would be due to the fact that NPC components would be consumed at a higher/lower rate depending on CPU/PG usage.
Fatsam Madhatters Inc. Pure.	Posted - 2008.04.23 11:42:00 - [122] Edited by: Fatsam on 23/04/2008 11:42:42 Edited by: Fatsam on 23/04/2008 11:42:17 As currently proposed this would make it only slightly less complicated, as you still have to round up the parts to put them in a factory. At the moment once you got them together, the main hassle has already been done. It would only save sorting them into the piles needed when you go to refuel a tower; but you would need to run a factory job before you take them to your tower. Just sell the fuel pellets ready made from every NPC station for a price equivalent of the current items it would replace.
Maraleith Gallente The Culture Holding Corporation	Posted - 2008.04.25 09:44:00 - [123] The issue which has been pointed out is how will this make null sec logistics easier. It wont. It will create production bottlenecks as empire manufacturing slots become fuel cell manufacture slots. The real issue with POS Fueling is that ALL stations should sell POS fuel components. That is the nub of the fuel issue; having to haul components which are only found in empire out to null sec. It is a huge time sink and waste of time and energy. Remove that and all is well with POS fuelling BUT you then affect wars through nullifying targeting logistics trains as a valid tactic. However, I personally think it is almost impossible to nullify logistics trains now that jump freighters exist.
Montoya Anigo	Posted - 2008.04.25 17:11:00 - [124] Since refueling isn't what null-sec sovereignty is based around, add a refueling bill to either the appropriate wallet (either Personal or Corp) and have that on a 30d recurring cycle. If the appropriate bill isn't paid ontime, the tower goes offline. In Empire space, you could have your factional fee based on your standings (either corp or personal) to the appropriate faction to account for those silly "starbase charters". That would make them more dynamic and dependent upon monthly standings, instead of the current "once you have the tower up, it doesn't matter what your standings are" crap. Once towers are offline for a certain amount of time (say a week or two), you should have the ability to hack into the abandoned tower's anchoring protocols to cause them to unanchor, and be able to take them (subject to the same aggression rules as taking from someone else's cannisters). The owner (owning corp's directors or individual pilot) should get a message stating that someone is hacking into their tower and be able to respond in the time it takes for the tower to unanchor (150% the amount of time that it takes to unanchor one normally).
Lexodus	Posted - 2008.04.25 18:24:00 - [125] i read the first 2 pages but stuff started getting repetitive so excuse me if im adding to the redundancy. eliminate the 'manufacturing' step altogether. rather than taking time to build the fuel rods, you should be able to consolidate all your npc commodities whereby you can simply combine them with another commodity (fuel shell maybe?) and simply stack the fuel in the shell, the shell acts as a container, lowering the m3 needed to haul the fuel, and they hold specific amounts of each regular commodity so each fuel shell, when loaded with current fuels, has a specific run time. say it holds enough for 6 hours of operation. manufacturing slots wont be spammed with fuel, and it doesnt really create an extra step but it makes the fueling process mroe convenient most people likely haul all their fuel to a central location before taking it to a pos anyways, so once its all together you can simply drag and drop the stuff into the shells which get thrown in the pos. the process isnt much lnoger (how long can it take to drag and drop?), no skills or manufcaturing involved, ppl get more fuel for their m3, and its easier to calculate the run time with the shells. consider it.
grgjegb gergerg Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.04.26 04:40:00 - [126] Problem 1- Manufacturing. You aren't really MAKING the fuel, you're just packing a few things into handy boxes. So make the manufacture time fast. Or, make a manufacturing module for industrials. They were supposedly originally meant to be able to refine in space (hence the CPU), but that was never put in due to macro miners. But adding this particular ability to industrials would hardly unbalance things. Problem 2- Initial rush. I can see this being kind of a problem if all towers suddenly reject their piles of fuel, and EACH tower in the game needs to be tended on the same day... A pre-seed of the industrial module would help that, as well as a blueprint with like a 1-second manufacture time. Toss those out before the change hits, one per player. A couple weeks later, remove those blueprints from the game.
Nova Fox Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.26 11:14:00 - [127] How about we split manufacturing on all stations between ships and ammo/fuel? and make seperate fuel pellets for jumping and portaling as well, the build times still would be fast but it needs enough time to warrent some PE research into it. How to make feel low sec feel like low sec
Anira Minmatar Chrysohelios	Posted - 2008.04.27 15:39:00 - [128] Edited by: Anira on 27/04/2008 15:39:46 Greyscale, How about making the fuel rod manufacturing require just 2 components? - 452 isotopes - "empty" fuel rods that replace the other materials needed to run a control tower (enriched uranium, coolant, etc) Then you can let people refine it in case the isotopes are needed for other tasks. Refining would give you back the "empty fuel rods" + 452 isotopes. I'm sure it's possible to code it in such a way that even without any refining skills there's no loss when doing this.
Dr Brains Boli Me Kurc	Posted - 2008.04.28 08:34:00 - [129] Why 80/40/20? Why not just 8/4/2 or 4/2/1?
D'Aria Amarr CyberTech Innovations	Posted - 2008.04.28 09:20:00 - [130] Apologies if someone has already covered this but i got bored after reading the first page and a half. Fuel Rods / Cells / Pellets sound great to me. however with a the slight modification as suggested by someone who's name i've forgotten. The NPC goods should be able to be combined into the Fuel Rods, the Ice products however should be seperate. This means that you buy the same rods no matter what race your tower is. Having the isotopes seperate means that the stupid capital pilot who didn't bring enough fuel can still "borrow" some topes from the tower fuel bay to get them back home. I'm guessing one of the main reasons this is being proposed is that it'll only mean that each hour the POS has to make a maximum of 4 databse calls rather than the 9 it currently takes just to keep them running.
Clansworth Point-Zero SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.02 04:20:00 - [131] The PG and CPU based fuels would also still have to be seperate, otherwise, what tradeoff would there be for maxing out every tower? Perhaps the total Fuel-rod usage of the tower could be based on the higher of the two, PG or CPU, and prorated from that. That way, the effect of a lightly fit tower would actually be even more savings than the current situation. Just a thought...
Belidonna	Posted - 2008.05.02 05:03:00 - [132] What if they were just solar powered? ehhh yeah
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2008.05.05 11:53:00 - [133] Little off topic, but why do tower power plants require fuel, while ship power plants run forever on nothing? Can I get and oversized ship reactor or two for my tower please?
zzbooks	Posted - 2008.05.06 13:56:00 - [134] Introducing a new BPO and factory requirement makes fueling more difficult, not easier. If Fuel rods allowed a significant compression of the fuel components it would be useful, but should be optional. If you can just select fuels in a hanger, right click, Make Rods - that would be good as well. Makes it easy to see which fuel type is short, instead of having to calculat everything out of game.
Skrypt Game-Over Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.07 14:11:00 - [135] Edited by: Skrypt on 07/05/2008 14:12:01 This is far too minor of a change to merit increasing pos fueling costs. The benefit is that I look at fewer items in my hangars, which is little more than aesthetic gain. POS structures need more than makeup. Such proposals are almost insulting, imo. Additionally, the time spent producing and consolidating POS fuels for pellets or what have you will outweigh the time spent fueling currently. ---------------------- Recruiting.
Zirconium Blade Ass Pounding Space Monkeys	Posted - 2008.05.08 19:30:00 - [136] I like this idea, its like making ammo to run your pos.
oingo Gallente 23rd Armor Penumbra Unleashed	Posted - 2008.05.11 16:16:00 - [137] This is making this whole project even more complicated than it needs to be. All of the necesties for ease of use are already in place. Get rid of isotopes for pos's. Make them run on Liquid ozone. i.e. jump bridges make lo more heavier than it is currently. (to compensate some what for the reduce amount of the other crap involved) dramatically reduce the amount of other crap, such as uranium, mechanical parts etc. Make it so the existing numbers last for 6 months or so. have a pos fuel bay available to be anchored inside a bubble that can add fuel when the fuel bay gets below x percentage. have this bay large enough to run it for 3-4 months. yes that may sound like a long time, but fueling pos's sucks. Keep the game from sucking. have a disadvantage on the pos fuel bay. if its shields are under 100% than the thing locks it self and if the pos goes down all fuel is lost. (you need a disadvantage for the convience.) Adding BPO's just adds more work to a process that already sucks. Off topic: I like fuel pellets. I get a mental image of a rabbit cage at the pos with a direct chute to the fuel bay!
Inanna Zuni Minmatar The Causality Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.05.12 01:27:00 - [138] Everything in Eve is predicated on the differences between the four races, so POS fuelling should probably continue to have some differentiation too. But there is also something sensible about having a 'one fuel for any POS' option, so ... Fuel Rods come in a 'base' version and a 'named' version! * The base version is 30%/50% larger than the 'named' version, but can be used in any POS and made from a range of components * The 'named' version requires the specific components as presently and can only be used in that race's POS design IZ
Esiel Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.12 21:14:00 - [139] I would leave ice-fuels as they are and not make them part of the fuel pellet/rod/mixture. Also I beg of you please don't make it a blueprint thing unless you add more manufacturing slots or stations (In fact add the manufacturing slots anyways and while your at it do some more reasearch slots) I would love to see you just add a new comodity, and not worry about making it an item you have to create. I don't see how just adding a new comodity to the game will change anything other than making life easier for pos owners. Now you get to buy 1 thing instead of 5. Less time spent gathering it up and hauling it over will be very nice. Off with your head
Khyenn LaNayeur	Posted - 2008.05.13 06:04:00 - [140] Originally by: oingo have a pos fuel bay available to be anchored inside a bubble that can add fuel when the fuel bay gets below x percentage. have this bay large enough to run it for 3-4 months. this, but anchorable outside. Make it unable to be destroyed, only damaged. Damaged fuel bays leak, and cannot refuel POS. This way small gangs can run around softening up systems before the big guns jump in. Oh and the fuel rod idea sounds good, so long as (as someone said) the rods themselves compress somewhat.
Sheha Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2008.05.13 08:37:00 - [141] Fuel Cores! Sorry... definitely Cores. ...and how about they are compressed and require Compression skills to create... and use.
Sturmwolke School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.14 12:25:00 - [142] Originally by: CCP Greyscale As a bonus question, Fuel Pellets or Fuel Bricks? "Starbase [Plasma] Fuel Intermix" replace [Plasma] with appropiate EVE racial tech e.g anti-matter, fusion, graviton etc
Rhamnousia Caldari Pelennor Swarm Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.16 09:44:00 - [143] Stay away from the factory slots. Just stay away from them. Peritty Puhlease with a -HUGE- cherry on top? Instead of seeding the BPO for the Fuel Cell. Seed Empty Fuel Cells. A pilot would need those in the hangar, the right commod and racial topes. Right click on Empty Fuel Cells stash => Make Fuel Cells => Caldari/Minmatar/Amarr/Gallente. In effect, this action will load up as many Empty Fuel Cells as possible and make it into selected race Fuel Cells. These will then be carried to a POS and loaded into the Fuel Bay, along with Heavy Water and Liquid Ozone. Just DON'T make it using up Factory slots. ---------------------- What happens in Pelennor stays in Pelennor. Forever Pelennor
Mr Cinders	Posted - 2008.05.16 14:47:00 - [144] To reduce the over-burdened manufacturing slots, could the compression process run through the Refinery system? Thus, instead of refining one thing in to many (e.g., ore -> minerals), players could click on the NPC goods and isos and then reprocess them into the appropriate fuel unit. Reprocessing would be immediate (or on a short timer?) and would only require a station with a refinery. If the aim is to ultimately strip out the NPC goods completely, EVE could slowly transition the NPC market from trade goods to POS fuels. Mr Cinders
Sir Substance	Posted - 2008.05.18 05:33:00 - [145] you know, theres a very simple solution to both preventing overuse of factory slots and the increased cost of the bricks/rods/pellets (FTR i like bricks better). make it so you can use the bricks if you want, or refuel it the old fashioned way. so those who want to save the money or are in deep space and dont have lots of manufacturing space can just use the fuels as they currently are. the high sec industrialists with their mini-research POS's can use bricks for a quick i-cant-be-bothered solution.
Batolemaeus Caldari Batolemaeus Corp	Posted - 2008.05.18 07:16:00 - [146] Actually, i like the idea as it is. Just exclude racial isotopes from the pellets. I am a posmonkey myself, and to be honest, i would pay for simpler posfueling. Either by setting up buyorders in my stagingpoint, or just buying them for a reasonable price at the next hub. This would save me a lot of time, time i can invest in other things. So, creating a new production chain for new industrialists is fine imo. Just make it so, that for perfect ME, you just have to research a day or two, similar to rigs. That way the barrier for rookie manufracturers would be very low, and prices for pellets would be close to the price of the npc-commodities. Maybe even lower than they are today, as someone else would make the effort of collecting the goods from far away stations i just don't bother flying to, thus using lower priced posfuels for producing. I definitely like the idea and would love to see it implemented as soon as possible. Just the thought of having to fly to the next hub and stocking up on powercells, then jumping them to my pos is beautiful..
ElDiabloRojo Caldari Colossus Technologies Fang Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.18 21:43:00 - [147] Ive been playing eve since 2003. i bought a tower back when there was only 4 towers in game, they cost 100m now those same towers have lots of little brothers and sisters and cost 400m each... time have changed thats for sure. But if your telling me that u want to take the current fueling system and change it to 80 pellets per hour + HW + LO + stront then i have only 1 question... when can u start!? My god this is a great idea. Seriously, make them bigger for all i care. just do it! Hek it also removes that pesky questions like "why does my tower burn thru a robot an hour? what are they doing in there!?" ElDiabloRojo Director for Colossus Technologies
Lynch Me Caldari Science Industry and Nucleocosmochronology	Posted - 2008.05.18 23:00:00 - [148] Well the thing with producing the pellets is that you'd need someone to produce them. You could produce them yourself if you have Industry level 1, but how about Production Efficiency? That one would most likely affect the materials needed for the pellet manufacturing - are those numbers you mentioned supposed to be those needed when you got PE level 5 or level 0? Or would the blueprint be similar to a reaction BP? What will the costs of the blueprints be and what skills and POS modules (for those in 0.0 that don't have so many available manufacturing slots) will be needed to make the pellets? To make myself clear, is it a manufacturing job or a reaction? Anyway, in case you do decide to implement this, you should figure a way to seed the market with them for the first few days until players start producing the stuff. Towers not supporting the old fuel would be very bad if the new one wouldn't be available straight away. Or allow the towers to feed on both types temporarily or permanently after the implementation, that would certainly be the best idea. I really would prefer if the players would be able to choose between classic fuel and pellets because that way there wouldn't be any waiting time for the pellets to be produced. Other than that, I know I'd make some decent ISK on producing pellets during the first few days, so it's fine with me if you restrict POS fuel to pellets only, especially since I don't have my POS's anchored right now :) Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Gabriel Rike	Posted - 2008.05.21 15:21:00 - [149] Or just make it so fuel cells(I like this name best) aren't racial based. Just make them compile all the npc sold commodities. Still allow them to be made by the bpo's like planned, but also make them directly purchaseable from the same npc's. This way any commodities you find in npc wrecks for example are still able to be used in fuel cells through the bpo, but your not required to make them. So then you just need ice products and fuel cells. This also lets the ice mining to continue at the same value as before, and for the rest of the fuel they can simply purchase the fuel cells in empire like always, or make it if they so desire where ever a factory slot is avail(pos or npc station / whatever). This takes what you want to do and actually stream lines it without changing things vlaues(time and frustration count for value as well as isk), but also adds an extra complexity if so desired. I also agree that the fuels currently in a pos should be calculated into the equal amount of cells.
Raknor Fuchi Industries	Posted - 2008.05.23 00:10:00 - [150] The Basic Idea of Fuel Rod/Pellets/Bricks are a great Idea in concept but the implementation to a active market would be difficult if not impossible to do without screwing up the market for quite a while. What the market needs is empire towers(current tower types) and deep space towers(new type using fuel rods). The only major difference between the two towers is that the deep space towers would use fuel rods and strontium clathrates(when in reinforce) instead of the mixture of current fuels. The base cost to run a fuel rod tower should be more isk/hour but all materials to make the fuel rods would harvest able from 0.0 space. By adding a new tower type you would see that individuals close to empire and in empire would keep using the current tower type as moving the trade goods from empire would be cost effective. Those in deep space would slowly transfer there towers as fuel was used up to the deep space type as the would be effectively cheaper to run as they don't require that 60 jump haul for empire fuels. That and if maintaining fuels in your POS are that big of a issue for people they could bite the extra isk/hour and could use the fuel rod type. Towers of all types need to have BP's so there cost can flux with the market cost of materials and not be price fixed and if tower BP's were introduce it would add the potential of this new tower type being the T2 variant of standard towers. May your gunÆs strike truth into those who wish to oppress it.

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