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WIRED article - Griefers, the Sociopaths of the Virtual World

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Neth'Rae Neth's Workshop	Posted - 2008.04.06 07:44:00 - [31] Edited by: Neth''Rae on 06/04/2008 07:44:43 Originally by: Polonium 210 It is laughing through tears, much like recent event with epilepcy forums. Yeah, but that's something that can actually be called greifing, not funny.. (I actually lol'ed at the concept of it tho..) Request signatures at EVE-GFX
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood ANTHRAX DEATH	Posted - 2008.04.06 07:52:00 - [32] Originally by: Nyabinghi Good article on Griefers in the virtual world with some mention of Goons in EVE. Read it here: WIRED Article In my opinion between Macroers and Griefers MMOs are beginning to loose their attraction. Seriously, who's got the time and money to put up with this B.S.? lol. You missed the point of the article, which is summed up in the final couple of lines: Originally by: www.wired.com Well, being inexcusable is, after all, the griefers' job. Ours is to figure out that caring too much only gives them more of the one thing they crave: the lulz.
Surfin's PlunderBunny GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.06 08:03:00 - [33] Originally by: Asuka Smith If a country ever passes a law about griefing in a videogame I am going to stop mining and start the revolution. They'd also have a mass immigration of goons ------------------Sig-------------------------- Goons' greatest Pubbie!
Mazakura	Posted - 2008.04.06 09:45:00 - [34] You are already failing Nyabinghi because you are taking this "GAME" too seriously. It's a GAME. If you bring your real world morals and ideals into a game you have some problems. In a game you are FREE to kill/pod someone in high-sec if you want to. Killing someone in real life is not acceptable. Me blowing up your ship that you wasted hours and hours and possibly even real world dollars on would not only bring a huge smile to my face but I would happily do it over and over again. "Griefing" as you like to call PvP is fine in a GAME. See that key word there, GAME. If Tyrrax Thorrk steals your mothership in a GAME, who cares, he didn't do anything wrong like stealing your mom's jewelry from the safe in your house. GAMES let you do things that you can't do in the real world. That is the entire premise of a GAME. You get to be a vampire, an F16 fighter pilot, a US Navy Seal, a gangster stealing cars, etc. etc. etc. Get the idea. It's a GAME.
Barbelo Valentinian	Posted - 2008.04.06 09:46:00 - [35] Originally by: Ponderous Thunderstroke Griefers are just doing their jobs. EVE is a niche game, in that there a lot of niche roles to fill. It's like an ecosystem, everyone is just doing the role they fit. Bears have their role, pirates have their role, griefers theirs, etc. In other words, don't hate the playah, hate the game. Indeed, but the problem with griefers is that they do hate the player - or at least laugh at him and despise him. And that has no role in a roleplaying game, because it's non-consensually OOC. The problem isn't that griefers in EVE do morally "bad" things - normal players do morally "bad" things too, even sometimes gank newbies, and generally make people lose their stuffs and cry. That is part of the game. The problem is that griefers' actions are aimed directly at the player behind the computer, and not at the avatar in the game world that the player is animating. From a broader point of view, there's nothing necessarily wrong with griefers at all as human beings (although sometimes one wonders) - what they do is often funny, and in a sense salutary (which is just as well, since they can never be eliminated completely). And people immersed in a roleplaying game do indeed look a bit odd when you look at them from the outside. But then, so do people having sex. ***** "To wake up is to wake the world up" - D.E. Harding
Lazuran	Posted - 2008.04.06 10:31:00 - [36] Originally by: Nyabinghi Good article on Griefers in the virtual world with some mention of Goons in EVE. Read it here: WIRED Article In my opinion between Macroers and Griefers MMOs are beginning to loose their attraction. Seriously, who's got the time and money to put up with this B.S.? Griefers are only a problem if the game doesn't support that kind of play. EVE certainly encourages it, like it or not: high sec ganking is a good way to make ISK, what more proof do you need? The article talks more about harrassment though than PVP griefing. (will Ambulance support rains of phalluses?)
Xyn Rhais	Posted - 2008.04.06 11:03:00 - [37] Well the article was really interesting, but the EvE part was a letdown. I mean, call a wartime loss of a Titan griefing ? Anyway goons do stuff like that. But the argument is weak because the point of why goons and others do things like this is because EvE is a spaceship simulator. It's not funny to hurt people, it's hilarious to get people angry at things that really don't do them any harm. I've seen goons be very decent people when it counts. Ofcourse it's doubly hilarious when goons themselves get all serious buisness about spaceships , but to be fair it's hard not to because EvE is a good game.
Danae Melios Notorious Legion	Posted - 2008.04.06 13:01:00 - [38] Edited by: Danae Melios on 06/04/2008 13:03:21 Originally by: Barbelo Valentinian Indeed, but the problem with griefers is that they do hate the player - or at least laugh at him and despise him. And that has no role in a roleplaying game, because it's non-consensually OOC. The problem isn't that griefers in EVE do morally "bad" things - normal players do morally "bad" things too, even sometimes gank newbies, and generally make people lose their stuffs and cry. That is part of the game. The problem is that griefers' actions are aimed directly at the player behind the computer, and not at the avatar in the game world that the player is animating. From a broader point of view, there's nothing necessarily wrong with griefers at all as human beings (although sometimes one wonders) - what they do is often funny, and in a sense salutary (which is just as well, since they can never be eliminated completely). And people immersed in a roleplaying game do indeed look a bit odd when you look at them from the outside. But then, so do people having sex. The problem with saying that targeting the people behind the monitor is wrong, is that in Eve there are few other options to get back at a person or an organization that has betrayed a trust, or something similar. You can't win a war by blowing up ships that an avatar is flying. You can only win a war, you can only destroy an organization, by making the situation not fun for the other side. For the real players behind their monitors. By **ing them off so bad they give up on those they chose to associate with in-game and try something else. Not, I might add, grief them out of the game. But grief them out of the region, or the alliance, or even force the corporation to disband. There is no reason why an alliance shouldn't be able to survive losing its space and resurfacing somewhere else, applying what they learned in a new show of strength. But war in Eve seems to be more about association than space, really So you force those associations to break. You create so much stress for their organization(s) that the enemy simply ceases to want to associate with one another. Edit: quote got lost in the system somehow Originally by:** game box Conceive a new life without boundaries, where murder, plunder, betrayal, and delusions of grandeur will lead you to boundless glory or to the brink of ruin.
Imperator Jora'h Hedion University	Posted - 2008.04.06 13:01:00 - [39] John Gabriel's Greater Internet ******* Theory pretty much sums all this up. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Papa Ina GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.06 13:04:00 - [40] I find people that post articles from months ago that have already been discussed to death on these forums to be the worst kind of griefer.

Burnharder	Posted - 2008.04.06 13:16:00 - [41] Originally by: Xyn Rhais Well the article was really interesting, but the EvE part was a letdown. I mean, call a wartime loss of a Titan griefing ? Anyway goons do stuff like that. But the argument is weak because the point of why goons and others do things like this is because EvE is a spaceship simulator. It's not funny to hurt people, it's hilarious to get people angry at things that really don't do them any harm. I've seen goons be very decent people when it counts. Ofcourse it's doubly hilarious when goons themselves get all serious buisness about spaceships , but to be fair it's hard not to because EvE is a good game. I'm not sure about the getting people angry at things that don't do them any harm thing. I think if you read the psychology or philosophy literature (and I'm sure you do!) you'll find that quantifying "harm" is not an easy thing to do. It seems to me, that the concept of psychological wounding is one that can occur both in real-life and in immersive environments. I think it's fundamentally arrogant to engage in solipsism on this level, whereby you take it upon yourself to be the final arbiter as to what should hurt another and what shouldn't. In my view this is a fundamental problem with Goon philosophy. On the other hand, yes, itÆs just a game ;)
Myros Glimmbrand Ganja Co	Posted - 2008.04.06 13:40:00 - [42] tbh to busy watching goon attacks on the torch running through london today. After all ... running with a pretend torch is serious business ;p Boost is the new nerf.
Burnharder Tiny Industries	Posted - 2008.04.06 13:46:00 - [43] Originally by: Myros Glimmbrand tbh to busy watching goon attacks on the torch running through london today. After all ... running with a pretend torch is serious business ;p A good point, well made.
Nyabinghi Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.04.06 15:57:00 - [44] What I think the article pointed out is that the "Goon" phenomenon is not just localized to EVE and in fact appears to have a community that branches out to many MMOs. Though I can agree that people spending large amounts of money for virtual stuff in Second Life (Recently, the Second Life region of Amsterdam was sold for US$50,000.) is rather ridiculous I think the Goon phenomenon has more to do with some people's need to be destructive little brats than anything resembling a thought provoking movement. As far as taking the game too seriously well I take it as seriously as the monthly fee + time + effort I put into it. I assume it's the same for others. "It's just a game," sure enough, but if I was playing chess and someone came over and knocked all the pieces off the board when I was playing I'd be **ed. The idea that I am somehow at fault for taking my chess game too seriously and therefore I "deserved" to have my game pieces knocked onto the floor is idiocy. Goons want to break EVE and make people quit the game, Macroers want to usurp the EVE economy, to the detriment of those actually trying to play the game, in order to make themselves RL money selling in-game stuff and isk. Now tell me that these two groups aren't parasitic and bad for EVE or any other multiplayer game. *
Ralara D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.06 16:14:00 - [45] Quote: Thus began the Second Life Goon tradition of jaw-droppingly offensive theme lands. This has included the re-creation of the burning Twin Towers (tiny falling bodies included) and a truly icky murdered-hooker crime scene (in which a hermaphrodite Furry prostitute lay naked, violated, and disemboweled on a four-poster bed, while an assortment of coded-in options gave the visitor chances for further violation). But the first and perhaps most expertly engineered of these provocations was Tacowood ù a parody of the Furry region known as Luskwood. In Tacowood, rainbow-dappled woodlands have been overrun by the bulldozers and chain saws of a genocidal "defurrestation" campaign and populated with the corpses of formerly adorable cartoon animal folk now variously beheaded, mutilated, and nailed to crosses. oh lol, I love goons sometimes. -- Ralara / Ralarina
Haks'he Lirky Dominion Imperium	Posted - 2008.04.06 16:30:00 - [46] Originally by: Nyabinghi Good article on Griefers in the virtual world with some mention of Goons in EVE. Read it here: WIRED Article In my opinion between Macroers and Griefers MMOs are beginning to loose their attraction. Seriously, who's got the time and money to put up with this B.S.? hahahahaha people want villains and villains want to be villains, the righteous need griefers to feel morally superior. You need us *******s to make your pompous righteousness visible, you need the dirt to feel clean.. Accept it.. Somone that has ever read Gibson or been delighted by any kind of Punk philosophy will read this article you posted with a small smile on his face and then continue his faceless existence in a society where he does not belong.
Nyabinghi Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.04.06 17:05:00 - [47] Originally by: Haks'he Lirky Originally by: Nyabinghi Good article on Griefers in the virtual world with some mention of Goons in EVE. Read it here: WIRED Article In my opinion between Macroers and Griefers MMOs are beginning to loose their attraction. Seriously, who's got the time and money to put up with this B.S.? hahahahaha people want villains and villains want to be villains, the righteous need griefers to feel morally superior. You need us *****s to make your pompous righteousness visible, you need the dirt to feel clean.. Accept it.. Somone that has ever read Gibson or been delighted by any kind of Punk philosophy will read this article you posted with a small smile on his face and then continue his faceless existence in a society where he does not belong. Oh please get over yourself. Goons got a beef with CCP, with Blizzard, with Linden Labs, with Valve, whoever, and because they lack the skills to hack the servers they instead try to ruin the games by trying to make the players in these games quit. Well guess what, you're not taking down any empire and your subscription fees go into the coffers just like everyone else's. Goons think they are being anti-establishment when in fact they are just being anti-social. *
Overwhelmed Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.04.06 17:15:00 - [48] a) This article is old. b) Clearly no one in this thread has actually read the article. Let me help: Quote: The challenge is sorting out the consequential from the not-so-much. And, if Rich Kyanka's steely equanimity is any example, the antics of the Goons and /b/tards might actually sharpen our ability to make that distinction. To those who think the griefers' handiwork is simply inexcusable: Well, being inexcusable is, after all, the griefers' job. Ours is to figure out that caring too much only gives them more of the one thing they crave: the lulz. The writer does an excellent job of remaining impartial. Stop trying to make it sound like anything more then an informative and entertaining story. ---------------------------------------------------------- Posting And You Disclaimer: This is a meta-game alt for meta-game discussions.
Haks'he Lirky Dominion Imperium	Posted - 2008.04.06 17:15:00 - [49] Originally by: Nyabinghi Goons got a beef with CCP, with Blizzard, with Linden Labs, with Valve, whoever, and because they lack the skills to hack the servers they instead try to ruin the games by trying to make the players in these games quit. Well guess what, you're not taking down any empire and your subscription fees go into the coffers just like everyone else's. Goons think they are being anti-establishment when in fact they are just being anti-social. Hehe, I am not a goon, nor will I nor have I been one, and do not think for one minute that the goons are the end all be all masters of the grief. But my point is this, even though Goons are doing what they are doing and other griefers do what they do nothing is being ruined, nothing is being destroyed, not a single game that has had griefers has had to shut it's doors because of griefing. Griefing is a part of online communities and it is a large part of what makes them interesting, seeing how people deal with griefing, how some corporations splinter up immediately once they are griefed while other loose the fat and continue on stronger than ever. It's interesting and it's fun, it's interesting to be griefed and it's very very fun and interesting to be the griefer. So get over your self little man and go and bait a n00b, you know you will like it.
Jacob Mei Slacker Industries Limited	Posted - 2008.04.06 17:15:00 - [50] Whoever wrote that article did one of two things: 1. Is having a laugh running google searches on his/article reading the responses being generated by it. or 2. Got his/her rear handed to him by someone in the goons and, being a magazine writer, is venting. Either way free advertising for EvE.

Haks'he Lirky Dominion Imperium	Posted - 2008.04.06 17:17:00 - [51] Originally by: Jacob Mei Whoever wrote that article did one of two things: 1. Is having a laugh running google searches on his/article reading the responses being generated by it. or 2. Got his/her rear handed to him by someone in the goons and, being a magazine writer, is venting. Either way free advertising for EvE. did you even read the article?
Jacob Mei Slacker Industries Limited	Posted - 2008.04.06 17:24:00 - [52] Originally by: Haks'he Lirky Originally by: Jacob Mei Whoever wrote that article did one of two things: 1. Is having a laugh running google searches on his/article reading the responses being generated by it. or 2. Got his/her rear handed to him by someone in the goons and, being a magazine writer, is venting. Either way free advertising for EvE. did you even read the article? Yeah about a month ago when a fellow faction mate posted the link.
Barbelo Valentinian	Posted - 2008.04.06 17:50:00 - [53] Originally by: Danae Melios The problem with saying that targeting the people behind the monitor is wrong, is that in Eve there are few other options to get back at a person or an organization that has betrayed a trust, or something similar. You can't win a war by blowing up ships that an avatar is flying. You can only win a war, you can only destroy an organization, by making the situation not fun for the other side. For the real players behind their monitors. By **ing them off so bad they give up on those they chose to associate with in-game and try something else. Not, I might add, grief them out of the game. But grief them out of the region, or the alliance, or even force the corporation to disband. There is no reason why an alliance shouldn't be able to survive losing its space and resurfacing somewhere else, applying what they learned in a new show of strength. But war in Eve seems to be more about association than space, really So you force those associations to break. You create so much stress for their organization(s) that the enemy simply ceases to want to associate with one another. Good post, and I see what you mean. That kind of gameplay is still legitimate though, it's not really griefing because those players are experienced and are well into the game, and losing territory matters to them (in-game) enough to fight back. It's a contest of more-or-less-equals that simulates real-world conflict. Griefing is more directed at newbies, it's one-sided, and it's only a problem because it breaks their immersion and discourages them from continuing to play. Think of the newbie as putting the game on probation - he wants to be like the game, wants to be a make-believe spaceship pilot, and wants the game to provide some degree of that kind of immersion, if only now and then. If the newbie-facing message is de-immersive, and brings them back to the real world, brings them back into their skin too much, that's when it becomes a problem. *** "To wake up is to wake the world up" - D.E. Harding
Barbelo Valentinian Liberty Corporation	Posted - 2008.04.06 17:59:00 - [54] Originally by: Nyabinghi "It's just a game," sure enough, but if I was playing chess and someone came over and knocked all the pieces off the board when I was playing I'd be **ed. The idea that I am somehow at fault for taking my chess game too seriously and therefore I "deserved" to have my game pieces knocked onto the floor is idiocy. Well put. There are two sides to it: on the one hand, it's true that people can get too immersed in a game, too addicted for their own good. But it's not the place of importunate stranger to point that out to someone, it's the place of the addict's friends and family to do that. And yet, an addict in that kind of situation might actually benefit from being pulled out of the game for a moment, and look at themselves sitting at the computer, caring about pixels. But for most players who are playing for fun and relaxation, the cod justification given by folks like the Goons for breaking their buzz is just arrogant and insulting, doubly so because it isn't even seriously meant most of the time, it's just a pretentious fig leaf. *** "To wake up is to wake the world up" - D.E. Harding
Inconstant Moon Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.04.06 18:07:00 - [55] Originally by: Barbelo Valentinian Goons ... it's just a pretentious fig leaf. Goons and their fig leaves! Oh, but it's such a tiny little thing for all the fuss :D -- CONCORD provides neither consequences nor safety.
Niccolado Starwalker	Posted - 2008.04.06 18:33:00 - [56] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 06/04/2008 18:33:45 Originally by: Nyabinghi Good article on Griefers in the virtual world with some mention of Goons in EVE. Read it here: WIRED Article In my opinion between Macroers and Griefers MMOs are beginning to loose their attraction. Seriously, who's got the time and money to put up with this B.S.? EVE promotes harsness EVE promotes a cold cold universe EVE promotes chaos and darknes EVE Promotes backstabbing, betrayal and trust EVE Promotes complete sandboxing - with its benefits and drawback! All this have the devs told us is what EVE is all about. All this have the devs told us is what EVE was intended to be. In such a world Griefing can not exsist, because what is griefing in a different MMOG would be a intended feature in EVE - promoted and encouraged By The Devs! Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
Inconstant Moon Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.04.06 18:51:00 - [57] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker All this have the devs told us... Blind faith is a benefit to none. -- CONCORD provides neither consequences nor safety.
Nyabinghi Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.04.06 18:52:00 - [58] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 06/04/2008 18:33:45 Originally by: Nyabinghi Good article on Griefers in the virtual world with some mention of Goons in EVE. Read it here: WIRED Article In my opinion between Macroers and Griefers MMOs are beginning to loose their attraction. Seriously, who's got the time and money to put up with this B.S.? EVE promotes harsness EVE promotes a cold cold universe EVE promotes chaos and darknes EVE Promotes backstabbing, betrayal and trust EVE Promotes complete sandboxing - with its benefits and drawback! All this have the devs told us is what EVE is all about. All this have the devs told us is what EVE was intended to be. In such a world Griefing can not exsist, because what is griefing in a different MMOG would be a intended feature in EVE - promoted and encouraged By The Devs! You forgot to add the part where CCP encourages players to make other players quit their game. Oh wait...The Devs never said that was what EVE was about. ***
Juwi Kotch	Posted - 2008.04.06 18:56:00 - [59] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 06/04/2008 18:33:45 Originally by: Nyabinghi Good article on Griefers in the virtual world with some mention of Goons in EVE. Read it here: WIRED Article In my opinion between Macroers and Griefers MMOs are beginning to loose their attraction. Seriously, who's got the time and money to put up with this B.S.? EVE promotes harsness EVE promotes a cold cold universe EVE promotes chaos and darknes EVE Promotes backstabbing, betrayal and trust EVE Promotes complete sandboxing - with its benefits and drawback! All this have the devs told us is what EVE is all about. All this have the devs told us is what EVE was intended to be. In such a world Griefing can not exsist, because what is griefing in a different MMOG would be a intended feature in EVE - promoted and encouraged By The Devs! The problem is not that there are griefers, that griefing is possible in EVE, or that griefing even is promoted by the Devs. The problem is that griefers can comfortably lay back in the protection of Empire and laugh at their victims, who cannot do anything against them, without using griefers tactics themselves, and thus lowering themselves to the level of the scum of online gaming. Pilots like will do not that, and I will try to do what I can that griefers can be punished by honorable means and tactics. Juwi Kotch http://www.erah.de/pics/CSM%20Campaign.pdf Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.[/url] Discussion Board
Deviana Sevidon	Posted - 2008.04.06 19:08:00 - [60] What some people would call griefing is simply a form of attention whoring. Users in a game want to stand out of the crowd of other users. Some of them achieve this by griefing others. One should notice that the real target is not destroy, but to get an emotional response from their victim. Only then the griever has achieved his goal. At least for the victim, his friends and maybe more people, the "Griefer" is no longer anonymous player xxxxx, but a person to begrudge, to fear or to hate. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.



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