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Etho Demerzel	Posted - 2008.04.06 07:37:00 - [1] With the advent of LP stores and the possibility to sell faction ammunition at the market some T2 missile types became simply useless. I am openning this thread in the hope it can be changed in some ways and to gather the input of the community: Fury and Rage missiles: simply put Caldari Navy missiles inflict roughly the same damage without the explosion radius, range, explosion radius and cap penalties. There is no motive in hell to use fury or rage missiles instead of faction. I reckon faction ammo should always have its niche, but the fact that it has none of the penalties of the T2 heavy damage variant and more range is enough reason to improve the damage on the later. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Thu'ak Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2008.04.06 08:36:00 - [2] hmm thanwe shall decrease the dmg on faction missiles to make them par with t2 ones.
Ambien Torca Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.04.06 08:59:00 - [3] Problem in doing that is that some t2 ammo are probably worse that regular T1 once their statistics are taken into consideration... Gleam, Void, Conflag, Javelin hybrid charges, most Rage missiles are all pretty bad. Hail not too good either, it¦s only saving grace is that it truely has higher dps potential than faction ammo (still only in very few occasions).
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.04.06 09:38:00 - [4] Precision heavy missiles also suffer from their explosion velocity. They're 1000m/sec base, rather than 750m/sec. Which given that means losing damage, and losing the 'faction ammo' damage boost, it makes them really not worth using. They're also slower than all the other guided missiles, being 3250 rather than 3750 base velocity. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.06 09:44:00 - [5] Edited by: welsh wizard on 06/04/2008 09:44:41 All the precision missiles need their explosion velocity scaling up. The high damage missiles don't do enough damage in comparison to faction. Spike is ok but the 249km lock cap needs to be killed so we can make proper use of it. Javelin railgun ammo is completely useless. Void doesn't do enough damage compared to CN AM when you take the range penalty into account. Null is good enough I guess. Hail looks pretty good but is kinda counter-intuitive to minmatar combat. Barrage is the best of the lot. Quake & Tremor both have their uses. I have no experience with the laser crystals. --------------- you all smell!
Carniflex Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.04.06 09:53:00 - [6] Faction ammo is approx 5x more expencive per shot and offers approx same effectivity as T2 just without drawbacks. So I would not call T2 ammo useless, it's economically more sensible to use if you are willing to adabt your setup to take into account it's drawbacks. Well at least the missiles, as I have impression you are mainly talking about those. Turret T2 ammo offers significant advantages over T1/faction.
Anas Damona	Posted - 2008.04.06 09:57:00 - [7] They should just remove the drawbacks on all tech 2 ammunition. Why should advanced charges have penalties? Just make them better in some ways than faction ammunition but not as good in other ways.
Gypsio III	Posted - 2008.04.06 10:07:00 - [8] Quote: Fury and Rage missiles: simply put Caldari Navy missiles inflict roughly the same damage without the explosion radius, range, explosion radius and cap penalties. There is no motive in hell to use fury or rage missiles instead of faction. Completely wrong. Rage and Fury are well worth using - against the right targets. Rage HAMs are the "correct" choice of ammo for a Drake fighting another BC or BS.
Max Nero Xeno Tech Corp United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.04.06 13:56:00 - [9] Originally by: Etho Demerzel ... blah blah blah ... Fury and Rage missiles: simply put Caldari Navy missiles inflict roughly the same damage without the explosion radius, range, explosion radius and cap penalties. There is no motive in hell to use fury or rage missiles instead of faction. ... blah blah blah ... Important part highlighted. With proper skills and a good setup that "roughly" becomes significant and all of a sudden t2 ammo is worth using. Plus - it is hella cheaper.
Lorz0r Capital Produce Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.04.06 14:06:00 - [10] with a target painter fitted i use rage torps against battleships
Etho Demerzel	Posted - 2008.04.06 16:11:00 - [11] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 06/04/2008 16:12:19 Originally by: Max Nero Originally by: Etho Demerzel ... blah blah blah ... Fury and Rage missiles: simply put Caldari Navy missiles inflict roughly the same damage without the explosion radius, range, explosion radius and cap penalties. There is no motive in hell to use fury or rage missiles instead of faction. ... blah blah blah ... Important part highlighted. With proper skills and a good setup that "roughly" becomes significant and all of a sudden t2 ammo is worth using. Plus - it is hella cheaper. Roughly means roughly. the difference in damage is less than 2% against caldary navy missiles. And the penalties are ridiculous, which makes the damage actually smaller in most cases. And if you compare with dread guristas ammo, T2 furies and rage have actually less damage. Hail, Quake, Conglag, Gleam, Javelin and Void all suffer from similar problems, but at least give some significant damage increase when compared with their faction counterparts. The penalties are great so in the end they are indeed worse in most cases, but there is at least a small niche for them. There is no such a thing for T2 damage missiles. Only people who don't know what they are doing use them. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Atsuko Ratu	Posted - 2008.04.06 16:17:00 - [12] Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 06/04/2008 16:17:32 Dread ammo deals the same dps as rage, but it's a lot harder to find I would still never choose rage over caldari navy. The cap penalty is way to high to justify an extra 30~ dps. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.04.06 16:30:00 - [13] Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 06/04/2008 16:17:32 Dread ammo deals the same dps as rage, but it's a lot harder to find I would still never choose rage over caldari navy. The cap penalty is way to high to justify an extra 30~ dps. Same as rage for unguided missiles, but with much smaller explosion radius, and more than fury for guided missiles with higher explosion velocity. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Gypsio III	Posted - 2008.04.06 16:39:00 - [14] Quote: There is no such a thing for T2 damage missiles. Only people who don't know what they are doing use them. I use them regularly, and I know exactly what I'm doing.
Etho Demerzel	Posted - 2008.04.06 16:51:00 - [15] Originally by: Gypsio III Quote: There is no such a thing for T2 damage missiles. Only people who don't know what they are doing use them. I use them regularly, and I know exactly what I'm doing. Sorry, but no, you don't... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Gypsio III	Posted - 2008.04.06 16:55:00 - [16] Ok. Tell me why I shouldn't use Rage HAMs against another BC.
Atsuko Ratu VSP Corp. R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.04.06 16:58:00 - [17] Originally by: Gypsio III Ok. Tell me why I shouldn't use Rage HAMs against another BC. Because dread will do the same DPS with no cap penalty, and have longer range.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc. Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.06 17:03:00 - [18] Ah yes, DG ammo... that wonderful stuff, found in abundance in all stations... erm. Come on, let's be realistic. DG ammo is not the answer.
Alex Shurk	Posted - 2008.04.06 17:09:00 - [19] Edited by: Alex Shurk on 06/04/2008 17:09:49 Originally by: Gypsio III Ok. Tell me why I shouldn't use Rage HAMs against another BC. Cap penalty, low explosion velocity, low missile velocity, lower range and insignificant dps increase.
Imaos Atropos Asylum	Posted - 2008.04.06 17:18:00 - [20] Some people might look at the availability of faction ammos (except the navy versions). Arbalest launcher are also better (fitting) than t2, but not as easy to get in some parts and therefor not as easily replaceable. Cap is also not a problem in buffer tanked ships missile ships... On the other hand I like precision lights in assault launchers on the right ship (hint: all caldari). Imaos ------------------------------------------ Originally by: NoNah My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.
Multras D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.06 17:47:00 - [21] I use rage/ jav torps, Null, Void, Spike, and javelin ammo all the time. Just because you haven't found a use for it doesnt mean there isnt one. Thanks to EVE Art Store for the sig.
Etho Demerzel	Posted - 2008.04.06 18:33:00 - [22] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 06/04/2008 18:35:39 Originally by: Gypsio III Ah yes, DG ammo... that wonderful stuff, found in abundance in all stations... erm. Come on, let's be realistic. DG ammo is not the answer. Ok, lets have a math lesson here. Analyzing heavy assault missiles on a drake, 7 launchers, maximum skills no damage module: 1) Terror Rage: dps: 328 range: 16.875 km missile velocity: 2250 m/s explosion radius: 200 explosion velocity: 375 m/s cap recharge time penalty: x1.075 1) Caldari Navy Terror: dps: 314 range: 20.25 km missile velocity: 3375 m/s explosion radius: 125 explosion velocity: 1125 m/s cap recharge time penalty: none Basically the difference in damage is neglectable (about 4%), rage only being able to inflict a little bit more damage in targets that go bellow 375 m/s and have a sig radius of 200 or more. They also have less range, which in a drake is problematic as it is slower than most battleships, especially if passive tanked. And if active tanked the cap penalty would cripple it as well. Analyzing heavy missiles in the same circumstances: 1) Scourge Fury: dps: 255 range: 40.5 km missile velocity: 4500 m/s explosion radius: 93.75 explosion velocity: 1125 m/s cap recharge time penalty: x1.075 1) Caldari Navy scourge: dps: 250 range: 84.375 km missile velocity: 5675 m/s explosion radius: 93.75 explosion velocity: 1125 m/s cap recharge time penalty: none Here you have half the range and less cap for a meager 2% damage increase. Originally by: Imaos Some people might look at the availability of faction ammos (except the navy versions). Arbalest launcher are also better (fitting) than t2, but not as easy to get in some parts and therefor not as easily replaceable. Cap is also not a problem in buffer tanked ships missile ships... On the other hand I like precision lights in assault launchers on the right ship As I showed Caldari Navy missiles are already much better than any T2 equivalent damage missile. And if you passive tank cap is not a problem, but range is... And arbalest are actually worse(damage) than T2 because the especialization skill increases RoF on T2 launchers... Originally by: Multras I use rage/ jav torps, Null, Void, Spike, and javelin ammo all the time. Just because you haven't found a use for it doesnt mean there isnt one. There is nothing wrong with Javelin missiles, Null and Spike ammo. They all do something only they can do. Increase your range and by a lot. Precision Missiles could have their explosion and travel velocities increased a bit, but still they are better than anything else to hit small and fast targets. Void, Javelin, Hail, Quake, Conflag and Gleam charges could use a small boost in damage, but they are all significantly better than rage and fury missiles when compared to their equivalent faction ammunition. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Thorek Ironbrow Ironbrow Industries Co. Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss	Posted - 2008.04.06 18:55:00 - [23] This is because of the tech 2 ammo nerf. BUFF TECH 2!! It's that whole malarky that "Tech 1 < Named < Tech 2 < Faction < Commander" But I think they took it to far, there really is almost no point spending all that time manufacturing tech 2 ammo, when you could just ***** some missions and get faction ammo for yourself fairly cheap (compared to buying/making). _____________________________
Thorek Ironbrow Ironbrow Industries Co. Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss	Posted - 2008.04.06 18:56:00 - [24] Javelin sucks balls so badly. It needs the biggest buff. _____________________________
Thorek Ironbrow Ironbrow Industries Co. Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss	Posted - 2008.04.06 19:00:00 - [25] Originally by: Lorz0r with a target painter fitted i use rage torps against battleships Best T2 missiles are Rage Torps against other BS (and bigger stuff I guess). _____________________________
Thorek Ironbrow Ironbrow Industries Co. Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss	Posted - 2008.04.06 19:00:00 - [26] 4 in a row? _____________________________
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.04.06 19:05:00 - [27] Originally by: Thorek Ironbrow Javelin sucks balls so badly. It needs the biggest buff. Javelin missiles have their place actually. Being able to lob a heavy assault missile what, 80km? shrug. It's useful at times. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Naomi Knight	Posted - 2008.04.06 19:09:00 - [28] Originally by: Multras I use rage/ jav torps, Null, Void, Spike, and javelin ammo all the time. Just because you haven't found a use for it doesnt mean there isnt one. Ive found an use for those i sell it to noobs like you :P Etho Demerzel is right t2 missiles are crappy and penalties should be erased.
Etho Demerzel	Posted - 2008.04.06 19:10:00 - [29] Originally by: Thorek Ironbrow Originally by: Lorz0r with a target painter fitted i use rage torps against battleships Best T2 missiles are Rage Torps against other BS (and bigger stuff I guess). No they aren't. Unless it is a 1x1 fight Caldary Navy torps are far superior. The damage you lose to get into blaster range each time you select a new target is far greater than the small difference in damage between the two of them. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Eardianm Darkness Inc. Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.06 20:10:00 - [30] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 06/04/2008 18:35:39 Originally by: Gypsio III Ah yes, DG ammo... that wonderful stuff, found in abundance in all stations... erm. Come on, let's be realistic. DG ammo is not the answer. Ok, lets have a math lesson here. Analyzing heavy assault missiles on a drake, 7 launchers, maximum skills no damage module: 1) Terror Rage: dps: 328 range: 16.875 km missile velocity: 2250 m/s explosion radius: 200 explosion velocity: 375 m/s cap recharge time penalty: x1.075 1) Caldari Navy Terror: dps: 314 range: 20.25 km missile velocity: 3375 m/s explosion radius: 125 explosion velocity: 1125 m/s cap recharge time penalty: none Basically the difference in damage is neglectable (about 4%), rage only being able to inflict a little bit more damage in targets that go bellow 375 m/s and have a sig radius of 200 or more. They also have less range, which in a drake is problematic as it is slower than most battleships, especially if passive tanked. And if active tanked the cap penalty would cripple it as well. Wonderful math lesson. Now try applying the numbers maybe to situations? As Gyp already mentioned, targets these are being used on are Bc and higher, so explosion radius not an issue. Also, as you mentioned, Drake is slow. HAMs are short range. As in, you want your target webbed. Webbed BC and larger are generally not going to be going > 375ms. The slower missile velocity means virtually nothing in those ranges. Cap penalty is meaningless on a HAM drake, you'll still be fine running hardeners and web/scram. If you're trying active tank, you have bigger problems anyway. So, why, if you are fighting BC or larger, in a HAM Drake, would you NOT switch for that 4% more damage? That said, I don't especially like how close faction damage is to Rage/Fury either, and generally I do just carry faction, cause I hate having 3-4 ammo types (per damage type for missiles). Too many chances to accidentally load the wrong type. But T2 does have it's limited uses, which I believe is the newly focused point of them. (James already touched on Jav hams when you actually do need the range in a HAM Drake). --------------

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