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Thabiso
Merchants of the Golden Goose
0
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Posted - 2012.02.26 14:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
We are currently at war with a corp that uses a trick, that I think is a bit unfair .
What happens is they will try and bait (which is fine), if you show up for a fight and start shooting and they see they are in trouble, they will warp in their out of corp alts (NPC corp as I recall) and have them start to remote repair - this of course will trigger aggresion timers on their alts and allow us to shoot at the alts - that is however a pretty moot point since they just turned the fight massively in their favor - when fight is over they can warp out and hide their alts wherever for the duration of the aggresion and at no point be truly in trouble.
Now these toons can basically go hide in a NPC corp, which makes it impossible for you to try and get back at them - so my question is, how can this be fair? The war is between us and their mains, why isn't remote reparing during active engagement triggering a concord response, sure as hell seems to be an aggresive move to me?
Moving your industrials etc. into NPC corps during wars make sense, but moving an alt into an NPC corp and still using them for the war should be against the rules. |
Kip Troger
Hanson Heavy Industries
0
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Posted - 2012.02.26 15:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
There are quite a few mechanics about high-sec warfare that can be manipulated. As for your argument about it not being fair - no one is stopping you from doing the same thing to them... That seems like it would even the playing field some.
However, the next patch EVE Online: Inferno coming out this summer is addressing high sec warfare and i think they plan to take a look at a lot of these mechanics and refine them. This mechanic might be adjusted - or maybe not, i cant say.
But to be honest, PVP is EVE is never fair... Any time you think about engaging someone - you should always assume the worst.
Plan for them to not reveal all of their cards, and by doing this, you can set your own traps as well. |
Grikath
T.E.L.O.G.S.
8
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Posted - 2012.02.26 15:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
"Should be" doesn't come into it. It's a valid game mechanic, and something *you* can use just as well.
Life is actually a hell of a lot better than it was, because there used to be a time where you could not shoot those "Neutral" RR toons. At all.
There's many, many tricks to highsec warfare, and this is simply but one of them. There's also many ways to make peeps pay for using neutral RR, if you have a decent FC and people actually listen to orders. After all logi ships tend to go *poof* nicely when you point/web them and change primary after they've shown their hand.
One important thing to realise is that in EVE, you are not up against "mains". You are up against players who can and will use the multiple accounts/alts options to their fullest extent, including dual- or even tripleboxing if their setup is sufficient.
Simply adjust your tactics, assuming their more than : "we fly out , and shootz stuff, then we lose our ships" is applicable here, and learn. |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
763
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Posted - 2012.02.26 15:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
Is it a lame tactic? Yes. Is it unfair? The word 'fair' doesn't exist in the Eve dictionary; fights are only as 'fair' as you can make them (by bringing more friends of yours than they did).
TBH, the whole wardec system is fairly broken right now; ATM it's used more as a tool for greifers than for people who have a real reason to want to kill the wartargets (I mean, right now my corp and atleast one other is wardecced by a guy who myself and some other posters called out for being an idiot on the forums, he doesn't try to attack us, he's just attempting to scare us with a wardec). However, it sounds like wardecs will get some much-needed attention and iteration this summer, so here's hoping that it gets better. |
Cameron Zero
Red Federation
13
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Posted - 2012.02.26 16:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
Any high-sec war will (almost always) include neutral alts to remote rep one or both sides. It's a fact of high-sec wars. "Fair"? No, but then Eve isn't fair.
Sad, yes.
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. GǪ" |
Banechild
The New Knighthood
3
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Posted - 2012.02.26 19:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
You can always scan the alts from the system after fights or even have a few guys scanning their safe spots while keeping out of the fight and simply waste their guys when they warp to safe.
Failing that get a logis of you own and/or enough tackler to keep their little logis there until fight is done for.
Also you can take any non-corpie buddy with you and they can shoot them as long as they stay in the fleet with you, sharing the wardec (just like they can and do), so it's not like you're out of options either. |
Matalino
4
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Posted - 2012.02.26 20:11:00 -
[7] - Quote
Banechild wrote:Also you can take any non-corpie buddy with you and they can shoot them as long as they stay in the fleet with you, sharing the wardec (just like they can and do), so it's not like you're out of options either.
This is false! Fleet memebership has no impact on the rules of engagement. It does not matter in the least bit if your non-corp buddy is in a fleet or not. You are certainly welcome to use non-corp buddies to help in your war, but they will be limited to shooting at those who shoot at them (and those who rep those who shoot at them). |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Ponies for the Ethical Treatment of Asteroids
983
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Posted - 2012.02.26 22:28:00 -
[8] - Quote
Let's just ask Willy Wonka what he thinks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKG07305CBs&feature=player_embedded |
KrakizBad
Eve Defence Force
Fatal Ascension
371
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Posted - 2012.02.27 03:55:00 -
[9] - Quote
Take heart, this is extremely likely to be nerfed into the ground this summer.
http://blog.beyondreality.se/Incursion-hose
Remove all incursions from hisec |
J'Poll
Pioneer's of the Galantic Wars
126
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Posted - 2012.02.27 08:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
You complain about it, but you should be happy. About a year ago you wouldn't be able too shoot the neutral repair ships at all, they could sit there and repping your wartarget and you couldn't do anything about them as shooting them would get you killed by concord.
And what they do, you can do it too. Why not get your own neutral alts to help you fight.
Remember:
All's fair in love and war.
Inject your skillbook before you leave the station. Neo didnGÇÖt learn Kung-Fu by having it sit in his usb drive.-á
If it moves, shoot it. If it doesn't move, poke it with your gun and then shoot it.
We are not running, we are advancing in the opposite direction |
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Raiz Nhell
DEEP CORPS
25
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Posted - 2012.02.27 11:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
EVE isn't fair...
I'm not going to start shooting unless I'm reasonably certain I have underwhelming odds and a dirty trick or two...
The first rule of a gun fight is to bring a gun, the second rule is to invite all your friends and have them bring guns....
I'm so carebear my Pod bleeds rainbow...
Beers + nullsec + dodgy fit = Loss mail |
Chal0ner
Sons Of 0din
Fatal Ascension
30
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Posted - 2012.02.27 11:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
Thabiso wrote: this of course will trigger aggresion timers on their alts and allow us to shoot at the alts - that is however a pretty moot point
"Primary is X in a scimi - all damage on X now" ... .... *poof* problem solved.
Of course not everyone listens to a FC, heck not everyone *has* a FC, in that case you have more of a problem.
This of course, supposes you have a fleet in the first place, not just a couple of random pilots panicking all over the place.
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gfldex
330
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Posted - 2012.02.27 13:15:00 -
[13] - Quote
Thabiso wrote:We are currently at war with a corp that uses a trick, that I think is a bit unfair.
War decs are not meant to be fair. They are merely a compromise. In the beginning EVE don't got CONCORD or sentry guns. As a result good players farmed bad players like mad. The carebear faction in CCP argued that this will hinder the growth of EVE and the compromise came about. As any compromise this one sucks too.
Reaching for low hanging fruits was and ever will be the main source of bad game design.
The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson |
Velicitia
Open Designs
678
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Posted - 2012.02.27 14:11:00 -
[14] - Quote
Thabiso wrote:...this of course will trigger aggresion timers on their alts.
I'm assuming it's a logi chain of 2-3 ships here.
Once they go red, switch primary/secondary/tertiary to the logis. Get points/ECM/neuts on all three so they can't rep chain each other (or warp out), and go to town.
Once the logis are down, take out the other guys (you did keep them pointed, yeah?) |
Kraven Stark
Open University of Celestial Hardship
Art of War Alliance
1
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Posted - 2012.02.27 16:35:00 -
[15] - Quote
The last corp I was in got War Decced by a merc group using the same mechanic. Our corp officers filed a petition and were told that this is something that CCP does not condone, has intentions on changing and actually removed the wardec status from us, which took 24 hours later.
This was probably 4 or so months ago. |
Thabiso
Merchants of the Golden Goose
0
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Posted - 2012.02.28 11:22:00 -
[16] - Quote
Kraven Stark wrote:The last corp I was in got War Decced by a merc group using the same mechanic. Our corp officers filed a petition and were told that this is something that CCP does not condone, has intentions on changing and actually removed the wardec status from us, which took 24 hours later.
This was probably 4 or so months ago.
Nice to know. Our current war-dec is over, but I'll keep it in mind.
Other posters seem to argue the tactic is ok, since it's better than what it used to be - to me thats a bad argument.
Yeah, it might be better, but that doesn't make it right and while it's within the mechanics of the game it's abusing the system (to me at least). It's like going into a boxing match and when it turns out your opponent is about to win you have some sniper in the audience take your opponent out and claim victory.
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Velicitia
Open Designs
686
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Posted - 2012.02.28 14:31:00 -
[17] - Quote
Thabiso wrote:Kraven Stark wrote:The last corp I was in got War Decced by a merc group using the same mechanic. Our corp officers filed a petition and were told that this is something that CCP does not condone, has intentions on changing and actually removed the wardec status from us, which took 24 hours later.
This was probably 4 or so months ago. Nice to know. Our current war-dec is over, but I'll keep it in mind. Other posters seem to argue the tactic is ok, since it's better than what it used to be - to me thats a bad argument. Yeah, it might be better, but that doesn't make it right and while it's within the mechanics of the game it's abusing the system (to me at least). It's like going into a boxing match and when it turns out your opponent is about to win you have some sniper in the audience take your opponent out and claim victory.
That's a bit drastic ... but one of the low-numbered rules of eve (IIRC, it's 3) is "if you're in a fair fight, someone did something wrong". |
Kraven Stark
Open University of Celestial Hardship
Art of War Alliance
1
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Posted - 2012.02.28 14:32:00 -
[18] - Quote
Thabiso wrote:Kraven Stark wrote:The last corp I was in got War Decced by a merc group using the same mechanic. Our corp officers filed a petition and were told that this is something that CCP does not condone, has intentions on changing and actually removed the wardec status from us, which took 24 hours later.
This was probably 4 or so months ago. Nice to know. Our current war-dec is over, but I'll keep it in mind. Other posters seem to argue the tactic is ok, since it's better than what it used to be - to me thats a bad argument. Yeah, it might be better, but that doesn't make it right and while it's within the mechanics of the game it's abusing the system (to me at least). It's like going into a boxing match and when it turns out your opponent is about to win you have some sniper in the audience take your opponent out and claim victory.
It's a BS tactic plain and simple. If you decide to jump in on a fight with a warring group, regardless of which corp you are in, you should be flagged as a target as long as the war is ongoing.
If they make that change, I can live with it. |
Grikath
T.E.L.O.G.S.
13
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Posted - 2012.02.28 16:45:00 -
[19] - Quote
Thabiso wrote:Other posters seem to argue the tactic is ok, since it's better than what it used to be - to me thats a bad argument.
Actually, they don't.
They, including myself, argue that it is a valid game mechanic, that in the past was patently unfair, and which has been adressed well over a year ago.
The result is that you can now happily shoot at "neutral" RR, as soon as they start aiding your opponents, because they will be flagged towards your whole corporation, not just the fleet you are in.
here if you don't believe me.
There is no "Unfair" about the whole thing anymore: under a wardec the moment neutral RR begins, the ship/pilot involved becomes an eligible target for your corporation. Since the flag is "criminal" , not "war", it includes the pilots in NPC corps, so that hole was closed, even though the time you can shoot him for is relatively limited.
Which is a whole damn sight better than the old situation, where you could only fight fire with fire , and bring your own neutral RR.
Oh wait, that would imply that as a "carebear" corp in highsec you need to actually employ/train/prepare pvp techniques...  [/sarc]
Between being able to shoot neutral RR and the insurance nerf for gankers, the two most obvious holes in highsec (warfare) griefing have been plugged. Everything else can be solved by actually learning to play the Game beyond shooting rocks and rats, even quite casually.
The "unfair" is in your perception, not in actual game rules/mechanics.
To paraphrase an EVE Dev: EVE is not a nice place, nor is it intended to be. If you want rainbows, go play Hello Kitty Online.
Please HTFU.. All you're doing now is filling the tear-jar of the highdec griefers while giving the anti-highsec lobby more ammo. |
FeralShadow
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
R.E.P.O.
63
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Posted - 2012.02.28 19:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
As many have said the war deccing mechanic is being taken a look at by CCP right now for the next expansion. The mechanic is as old as the game itself and hasen't been modified much, leading to many different problems and vulnerabilities.
Only thing I can suggest for the short term is to bring a friend or two in falcons. Logis dont work well against ECM, and while they're jammed you're free to pwninate the people they're repping. |
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Syds Sinclair
Hard Knocks Inc.
1
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Posted - 2012.02.28 21:58:00 -
[21] - Quote
..Like others have said, you can make it fair by knowing game mechanics and using the same tactic. Until CCP decides they want the aggression and Concord mechanics to act differently.
Hiring a merc cop to make things more 'fair' might be an option. |
Ares Renton
Smoking Minerals Syndicate
Cannabis Legionis
29
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Posted - 2012.02.29 19:41:00 -
[22] - Quote
Kip Troger wrote:There are quite a few mechanics about high-sec warfare that can be manipulated. As for your argument about it not being fair - no one is stopping you from doing the same thing to them... That seems like it would even the playing field some.
....
Get multiple accounts....
Okay... by that logic, why half-ass it with just 2 or 3 accounts. Go get a large bank loan and spend millions a month to buy a million accounts and take over all of Eve. I am sure it will be approved.
Some people do not want to waste more than $15 a month on internet spaceships. |
Kraven Stark
Open University of Celestial Hardship
Art of War Alliance
2
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Posted - 2012.02.29 19:45:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ares Renton wrote:Kip Troger wrote:There are quite a few mechanics about high-sec warfare that can be manipulated. As for your argument about it not being fair - no one is stopping you from doing the same thing to them... That seems like it would even the playing field some.
.... Get multiple accounts.... Okay... by that logic, why half-ass it with just 2 or 3 accounts. Go get a large bank loan and spend millions a month to buy a million accounts and take over all of Eve. I am sure it will be approved. Some people do not want to waste more than $15 a month on internet spaceships.
You mean like this?
http://76.74.159.78/P3140575tt.jpg |
Cameron Zero
Red Federation
13
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Posted - 2012.02.29 20:18:00 -
[24] - Quote
Ares Renton wrote:Get multiple accounts....
Okay... by that logic, why half-ass it with just 2 or 3 accounts. Go get a large bank loan and spend millions a month to buy a million accounts and take over all of Eve. I am sure it will be approved.
The reverse of your logic is also true. There are people who are perfectly willing (and able) to spend money each month for 5, 10, or even more accounts. Is your claim, then, that it's unfair that they can do that while you cannot, or were you trying to make another point when you said:
Ares Renton wrote:Some people do not want to waste more than $15 a month on internet spaceships.
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. GǪ" |
Velicitia
Open Designs
700
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Posted - 2012.02.29 20:22:00 -
[25] - Quote
Ares Renton wrote:Kip Troger wrote:There are quite a few mechanics about high-sec warfare that can be manipulated. As for your argument about it not being fair - no one is stopping you from doing the same thing to them... That seems like it would even the playing field some.
.... Get multiple accounts.... Okay... by that logic, why half-ass it with just 2 or 3 accounts. Go get a large bank loan and spend millions a month to buy a million accounts and take over all of Eve. I am sure it will be approved. Some people do not want to waste more than $15 a month on internet spaceships.
or "friends" ... you don't need multiple accounts to play eve (it just makes things "easier" in that you don't have to rely on other people for everything ... though that's kind of a core thing in the game). |
malaire
234
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Posted - 2012.03.01 10:09:00 -
[26] - Quote
Kraven Stark wrote:The last corp I was in got War Decced by a merc group using the same mechanic. Our corp officers filed a petition and were told that this is something that CCP does not condone, has intentions on changing and actually removed the wardec status from us, which took 24 hours later.
This was probably 4 or so months ago.
Many things which GMs considered not allowed were changed to be allowed last october:
Customer Support lifting previous restrictions regarding war decs
Quote from there:
GM Karidor wrote:If you can leave or declare a war, raise the costs for other entities to declare one to you or do any other war related things within current normal game mechanics, you may do so without having to keep other rules in mind.
New to EVE? Don't forget to read: The Manual * The Wiki * The Career Options * and everything else |
Fidelium Mortis
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Villore Accords
59
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Posted - 2012.03.01 18:35:00 -
[27] - Quote
Stay out of high-sec, there's too much annoying stuff like neutral RR and excessive station games.
ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon |
Fer DeLance
PERONOSPOROS
4
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Posted - 2012.04.06 22:49:00 -
[28] - Quote
What has Neutral RR has to do with "fair" or "unfair" fights? There is no fair fight in EVE, only fights you win and fights you lose. And you lose, when you fight against a supperior force, a better skilled pilot, or a more epxerienced pilot, and in any of these cases, nothing is FAIR for the lossing person.
But when talking about Neutral RR, no skills, no tactics, no experience takes part in the fight. It's a stupid mechanism that is simply unbeatalbe, especially in small scale, or solo pvp fights. It's always a lose-lose situation. It's not even unpredictable anymore, it's so widely spread that is so much predictable, so most fights won't even start anymore. Neutral RR makes it pointless.
For me, using a Neutral RR alt, is no option. I don't want to be part of this exploit. I am simply playing less and less eatch day, until the day all my assets are gone. And neutral RR is the main reason i got so bored of this game. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
437
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Posted - 2012.04.06 23:00:00 -
[29] - Quote
You realize you can shoot neutral logistics ships that are assisting someone you're fighting without being concorded, right?
To say that neutral logistics is unbeatable is to say that all logistics is unbeatable because in any engagement they are functionally identical. |
Grikath
T.E.L.O.G.S.
35
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Posted - 2012.04.06 23:44:00 -
[30] - Quote
Not exactly.. under current rules you have to be *very* careful even after the neutral RR gets flagged. Especially if people join fleet late.
New system will fix that though. flag will be universal for corp, so you don't even need to be in fleet anymore to whammo them. |
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