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Aurora Adia Republic University	Posted - 2008.04.07 13:50:00 - [1] i have ben wondering this for a while, why did CCP choose and AU as the warp speed/distance? it holds no real value other than the distance of earth to the sun. 1 Astronomical Unit = 149 598 000 kilometers i mean, is it a story thing where it is a holdover from the days when earth was still around? to make ppl feel closer to home? lol, after google i think i know why becasue i got this 1 lightyear = 63 239.6717 Astronomical Units but even so, a FTL drive that moves at sat 3 AU's/sec come to 180 Astronomical Units/hour. i dont know why i'm asking this, i got the idea fom [url=http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=332116]this[/url] therad
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.07 13:54:00 - [2] are you showing off your wiki knowledge? What you think would happen is we WOULD have LY instead of AU, then everything would be 0.003 LY away, and your warp distance would be 0.00036473 LY and all that crap. Using LY in something as small as a system is just not useful. Besides, EVE DOES use LY when it comes to using jumpdrives.
Eleana Tomelac Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.04.07 14:21:00 - [3] I think eve uses the right unit for the right scale. AU is a good unit foe solar system sized mesurements. m and km are good units for distances under the 0.'I can't remember when it steps down'AU distance. LY is a good unit for jumps between systems. By the way, the Eve standard time is based on earth time, maybe it should be some weird 29 hours thingy equivalent so we are sure it's useless? -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum	Posted - 2008.04.07 14:25:00 - [4] As Tzarrim gets at, it's just a unit that's convenient to represent the large distances covered in warps. Displaying the speeds in km/s would get ridiculous; displaying them in terametres/second, while consistent, would probably confuse a lot of people. And of course light years are just too big. I guess I'm going to turn around and ask the question: is there a unit that you feel would have been more appropriate instead? If not, then there's your answer.
Asestorian Domination. Scorched Earth.	Posted - 2008.04.07 14:33:00 - [5] In an RP sense this is explained by the empires coming together and deciding that ancient artifacts from earth, which detail the way they did things. This was obviously because if any system taken directly from one of the empires would cause the other empires to have a hissy fit. --- Quote: Welcome to EVE, a PvP game where people are - shockingly - allowed to PvP as much as they like.
Sakura Nihil	Posted - 2008.04.07 14:44:00 - [6] Also, a 3 AU/s drive would cover about 11k AU an hour, not 180 . Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk i'm not a very good gambler
gfldex	Posted - 2008.04.07 14:56:00 - [7] Originally by: Aurora Adia i have ben wondering this for a while, why did CCP choose and AU as the warp speed/distance? it holds no real value other than the distance of earth to the sun. 1 Astronomical Unit = 149 598 000 kilometers i mean, is it a story thing where it is a holdover from the days when earth was still around? to make ppl feel closer to home? Image somebody ask you on TS how far you are from X and you say: one hundred forty nine million kilometers. If you measure distances in solar systems you end up with nice numbers between 0 and 300 AU. Those are easy to name and remember. Light minutes would do the same but you can only pick one. AU seams more natural to me and the CCP ppl seam to agree. -- There are countless games in the world. There are at least as many ppl that dont like one or more rules of said games. That never stopped smart game designers from creating good games.
Chainsaw Plankton	Posted - 2008.04.07 14:59:00 - [8] Originally by: Sakura Nihil Also, a 3 AU/s drive would cover about 11k AU an hour, not 180 . 36060 w00 thats speedy. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Ralara	Posted - 2008.04.07 15:26:00 - [9] Originally by: Aurora Adia i have ben wondering this for a while, why did CCP choose and AU as the warp speed/distance? it holds no real value other than the distance of earth to the sun. 1 Astronomical Unit = 149 598 000 kilometers i mean, is it a story thing where it is a holdover from the days when earth was still around? to make ppl feel closer to home? lol, after google i think i know why becasue i got this 1 lightyear = 63 239.6717 Astronomical Units but even so, a FTL drive that moves at sat 3 AU's/sec come to 180 Astronomical Units/hour. i dont know why i'm asking this, i got the idea fom [url=http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=332116]this[/url] therad No, a FTL drive that moves at 3AU's a second comes to 10,800 AUs an hour ;) -- Ralara / Ralarina
Ralara	Posted - 2008.04.07 15:30:00 - [10] For the record, the fastest ship (without rigs) are the tackling interceptors at 13.5 AU's a second. That's 48600 AUs an hour - 7,270,462,800,000 km an hour. The speed of light is 1,080,000,000 km an hour (roughly). The Raptor / Ares goes 6,732 times the speed of light when in warp :) -- Ralara / Ralarina

InterimCEO	Posted - 2008.04.07 16:45:00 - [11] I would like to suggest that the AU display show two more digits of precision, allowing it to stay in AU units a little longer when coming out of warp. This would make the display consistently less digits than now (won't have to show 583,904 km). Star
NightF0x Chicken Coup Raiders	Posted - 2008.04.07 23:49:00 - [12] Originally by: Ralara For the record, the fastest ship (without rigs) are the tackling interceptors at 13.5 AU's a second. Actually that is the covert ops ships, not interceptors. So much misinformation in this thread that my head is about to splode. ------------------------------------
Baka Lakadaka	Posted - 2008.04.08 00:49:00 - [13] Originally by: Sakura Nihil Also, a 3 AU/s drive would cover about 11k AU an hour, not 180 . I know of a couple of systems that would take over an hour to cross at 180 AU per hour. Cheers Baka ______________________ Isn't it time you learned to fight back? Agony Unleashed Home of the PvP University.
Monkey Saturday	Posted - 2008.04.08 00:51:00 - [14] Originally by: NightF0x Originally by: Ralara For the record, the fastest ship (without rigs) are the tackling interceptors at 13.5 AU's a second. Actually that is the covert ops ships, not interceptors. So much misinformation in this thread that my head is about to splode. Ares does 13.5 AU/s...true cov ops do as well, but so do the fast intys. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Hesod Adee Xen Of Onslaught	Posted - 2008.04.08 07:15:00 - [15] I agree that meters are a good measure for the reasonably close distances (say, under 1'000'000km). Above that we need something else. AU's don't work too well because they are based on the distance between two objects that nobody has access to. How about basing the long distance measurements on the speed of light (c) ? It is a physical constant of the universe, meaning everyone who measures it will get the same value to within the error on their measurements. And we have had reasonably accurate ways to measure it since 1887 Distance measures can be given in how long it would take light to cross that distance either by giving the raw number of light-seconds, or light hours:minutes:seconds. Speed can be given by how many times the speed of light we are travelling. Wikipedia gives an AU as being approximately 499 light seconds. So instead of saying a ship has a warp speed of 3 AU/s, it will have a top speed of approximately 1497c.
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum	Posted - 2008.04.08 07:37:00 - [16] Originally by: Hesod Adee AU's don't work too well because they are based on the distance between two objects that nobody has access to. Huh? I have access to at least one of the objects... /me pats ground But seriously, does it actually matter that you don't have access to those objects? Essentially the unit works as long as everyone uses it and it's standardised everywhere. Because the HUD shows distances/speeds in AU where appropriate, you don't need to try and imagine where the earth and the sun would be... etc. It's just a set, agreed upon distance that was derived from a particular phenomenom. Anyway, you say that metres are "a good measure for the reasonably close distances", but the formal definition of a metre is "the length of the path travelled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1/299 792 458 of a second." How is that definition useful, but the definition of AUs makes them useless?
Danui United Titans Of Progress	Posted - 2008.04.08 07:38:00 - [17] Originally by: Asestorian In an RP sense this is explained by the empires coming together and deciding that ancient artifacts from earth, which detail the way they did things. This was obviously because if any system taken directly from one of the empires would cause the other empires to have a hissy fit. 2 that. Read the chronicles... you also could arrgue about using earth gmt as the standard eve time because Eve has nothing to do with earth... except the fact that all the races ones lived there. It's a historical fact. They used gmt as eve time and so for distances because it goes way back to the place where all the races are from... Eve-online guide collection Web based version
Ralara	Posted - 2008.04.08 08:01:00 - [18] Originally by: NightF0x Originally by: Ralara For the record, the fastest ship (without rigs) are the tackling interceptors at 13.5 AU's a second. Actually that is the covert ops ships, not interceptors. So much misinformation in this thread that my head is about to splode. Look at the Raptor and the Ares. The tackling interceptors go at 13.5 AU a sec, the combat interceptors (taranis, crow) go at 9 AU a sec. It is you who is feeding misinformation, not me. -- Ralara / Ralarina
Eleana Tomelac Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.04.08 08:12:00 - [19] Originally by: Ralara Originally by: NightF0x Originally by: Ralara For the record, the fastest ship (without rigs) are the tackling interceptors at 13.5 AU's a second. Actually that is the covert ops ships, not interceptors. So much misinformation in this thread that my head is about to splode. Look at the Raptor and the Ares. The tackling interceptors go at 13.5 AU a sec, the combat interceptors (taranis, crow) go at 9 AU a sec. It is you who is feeding misinformation, not me. Stop fighting, you are both right, covert ops frigates (helios) and tackling inties (ares) have the same warp speed : 13.5 AU/s... Now, that warp speed is useless 99% of the time unless you cross a 300 AU solar system like the few that exist. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Ralara D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.08 08:15:00 - [20] Originally by: Eleana Tomelac Originally by: Ralara Originally by: NightF0x Originally by: Ralara For the record, the fastest ship (without rigs) are the tackling interceptors at 13.5 AU's a second. Actually that is the covert ops ships, not interceptors. So much misinformation in this thread that my head is about to splode. Look at the Raptor and the Ares. The tackling interceptors go at 13.5 AU a sec, the combat interceptors (taranis, crow) go at 9 AU a sec. It is you who is feeding misinformation, not me. Stop fighting, you are both right, covert ops frigates (helios) and tackling inties (ares) have the same warp speed : 13.5 AU/s... Now, that warp speed is useless 99% of the time unless you cross a 300 AU solar system like the few that exist. I'm not fighting - if I was, it'd be naked, with jelly. 300 AUs isn't that useful for an interceptor, unfortunately they cap out around 200 AUs if they have a MWD fitted. Yeah, over the smaller distances it doesnt make much difference (a second, maybe) but once you get over 50-60 AUs, you can notice a difference if you're warping at the same time as others in a small gang - and it can be used to catch up with slow moving enemy fleets, to great effect. -- Ralara / Ralarina

Eleana Tomelac Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.04.08 08:24:00 - [21] Originally by: Ralara I'm not fighting - if I was, it'd be naked, with jelly. Huge, me too, you're right! Originally by: Ralara 300 AUs isn't that useful for an interceptor, unfortunately they cap out around 200 AUs if they have a MWD fitted. Yeah, over the smaller distances it doesnt make much difference (a second, maybe) but once you get over 50-60 AUs, you can notice a difference if you're warping at the same time as others in a small gang - and it can be used to catch up with slow moving enemy fleets, to great effect. I ran out of cap so many times in that system in venal... Can't remeber the name, I can just remember the 5 minutes of warp for the freighter! I agree, you need 50 AU to have some effect from the warp speed, the acceleration process to 13.5 AU/s is quite long, you already covered 5 AU when you reach top speed, and then you'll need 5 AU to slow down... -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Ralara	Posted - 2008.04.08 08:28:00 - [22] Originally by: Eleana Tomelac I ran out of cap so many times in that system in venal... Can't remeber the name, I can just remember the 5 minutes of warp for the freighter! I can't recall its name - there's a few of them around. There's ... 9-2 I think in Pure Blind, that's about 300. There's one over 300 in Insmother I think (or is it cache or greatwildlands?) Oipo is an annoying one, near Torrinos. There's a fair few really long ones. 300 AUs would be over a 7 minute warp in a freighter :( Glad we have a jump bridge! -- Ralara / Ralarina
Hesod Adee	Posted - 2008.04.08 09:37:00 - [23] Edited by: Hesod Adee on 08/04/2008 09:37:04 Originally by: Gartel Reiman Originally by: Hesod Adee AU's don't work too well because they are based on the distance between two objects that nobody has access to. Huh? I have access to at least one of the objects... /me pats ground But seriously, does it actually matter that you don't have access to those objects? Not really, unless someone disputes the accuracy of that measurement. Quote: Essentially the unit works as long as everyone uses it and it's standardised everywhere. Does the game lore describe how it became standardised ? I have a hard time seeing an AU becoming a well used measurement on the Earth side of the Eve gate. And if it didn't pick up there, I can't see why it would pick up on the side cut off from Earth. Meters are pretty much standard now, as are seconds. Quote: Because the HUD shows distances/speeds in AU where appropriate, you don't need to try and imagine where the earth and the sun would be... etc. It's just a set, agreed upon distance that was derived from a particular phenomenom. AU are based from an unreproducible phenomena and wouldn't be used much during Eve's dark age. But meters and seconds would be used more during that time, so would be much easier to remember over the time until the empires regained FTL travel. Quote: Anyway, you say that metres are "a good measure for the reasonably close distances", but the formal definition of a metre is "the length of the path travelled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1/299 792 458 of a second." How is that definition useful, but the definition of AUs makes them useless? Meters are useful because most players have a feel for how big they are, so they give a sense of scale better. AUs are a unit that convey the sense of scale too well because few people can visualise how large they are. Light based measurements should do better because there are more people who have a general idea about how fast light travels and a light-second is a shorter distance, meaning easier to visualise as the distance 'clock' is speeding down. Currently we have 3 ways of measuring distance in Eve: meters, AU and light years. Changing AU to light-seconds would bring us down to two systems while reducing the disconnect between distance in-system and between systems. Now lets look at how the measurements are defined: - A second is "the duration of 9 192 631 770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom." So it's constant. - A light year is based off c and the Julian year, which is based of an integer number of seconds. So also constant - A meter is based off c and a second, so again it's constant. So these measurements don't change over time, they just get refined as your measuring accuracy improves. Lets look at an AU: - An AU is based off the distance between a negligible mass particle orbiting the sun in a circular orbit that takes 365.2568983 days. But the sun is losing mass over time, meaning that this causes the length of the AU to increase. A unit that changes over time is a bad idea because it adds another source of inaccuracy. If they are instead defining an AU based of the number of meters, then they are making their calculations harder than unnecessary by having a unit transition that serves no purpose and isn't a 10^x multiplier.
NightF0x Chicken Coup Raiders	Posted - 2008.04.08 13:50:00 - [24] Edited by: NightF0x on 08/04/2008 13:50:00 Originally by: Hesod Adee a lot of good scientific information While this makes sense, you need to step back and realize that this is just a game. You need to ask yourself one question, what makes sense to those that are using the interface? IMO, the AU measurement is easier to conceptualize than a Light-Second, even though a Light-Second is much more consistent and easier to measure. Realize that we are just humans and have to go by what is easy for us to visualize. When I see an AU on my display, I know that is the theoretical distance between the Earth and the Sun, and that distance is huge compared to a meter. If I were to see Light-Second, I would be searching the internet for conversion factors to break it down to something I would understand. So in all, I think AU makes more sense in the game because how many people really know how far a Light-Second is without looking it up? ------------------------------------
Eleana Tomelac Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.04.08 13:54:00 - [25] Originally by: Hesod Adee Now lets look at how the measurements are defined: - A second is "the duration of 9 192 631 770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom." So it's constant. - A light year is based off c and the Julian year, which is based of an integer number of seconds. So also constant - A meter is based off c and a second, so again it's constant. So these measurements don't change over time, they just get refined as your measuring accuracy improves. Lets look at an AU: - An AU is based off the distance between a negligible mass particle orbiting the sun in a circular orbit that takes 365.2568983 days. But the sun is losing mass over time, meaning that this causes the length of the AU to increase. The AU has the value of the time they left earth, or the value that became the fixed value of the AU independant of the earth-sun distance. Then it is converted to meters. So, it's based on a natural thing that can changed and then fixed so it is a reliable unit that can be used forever, even if the AU is a bit wrong because of gravitational constant of the sun. Also, I do not agree with what you are showing as being the definition. Most of the units we are talking about existed before we had the knowledge about the definition you give. What you state as definition is just a conversion in a modern and very precise way to mesure it. The fact is all units are based on earth's size, day length and such! Then they have been given a fixed value on something that won't change. Meter (wikipedia) : One suggested defining the metre as the length of a pendulum with a half-period of one second. The other suggested defining the metre as one ten-millionth of the length of the Earth's meridian along a quadrant, that is the distance from the equator to the north pole. In 1791, the French Academy of Sciences selected the meridional definition. Meter was based on the size of earth and converted to more precise things that don't change to have a value fixed forever. Second (wikipedia again) : The second first became measurable with the development of pendulum clocks keeping mean time (as opposed to the apparent time displayed by sundials), specifically in 1670 when William Clement added a seconds pendulum to the original pendulum clock of Christian Huygens. They did not know about caesium 133. This was calculated later. So it's again an earth mesurement given a fixed value. Also, it was Egyptians that created the hour which is the base of all second calculations, based on the earth day. All those units were subject to changes, it's only by an international choice on units that we gave them definition that fixes it forever. Au is not different, for the Eve world, it's fixed related to meters, and it's fine this way, it allows us an easy to tell mesurement for our tactical environment. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Tchell Dahhn	Posted - 2008.04.08 14:11:00 - [26] Because "Hey, You!" takes too long to write. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Now offering Scanning Services for that 'hard to find' Mission Runner! Convo in-game for details!
Salpad YOUR LAST TESTAMENT EVER	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:54:00 - [27] Originally by: Eleana Tomelac I think eve uses the right unit for the right scale. Yes, either one of AU or LS or KKM should be used for interplanetary distances. Not light years. CCP is doing fine in that area; the only problem is that they give far too many decimals. I do not need to know that my ship's maximum velocity is 186.234534534545 m/s, and neither does any other player. -- Salpad
Salpad YOUR LAST TESTAMENT EVER	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:59:00 - [28] Originally by: NightF0x Edited by: NightF0x on 08/04/2008 13:50:00 Originally by: Hesod Adee a lot of good scientific information While this makes sense, you need to step back and realize that this is just a game. You need to ask yourself one question, what makes sense to those that are using the interface? IMO, the AU measurement is easier to conceptualize than a Light-Second, even though a Light-Second is much more consistent and easier to measure. Realize that we are just humans and have to go by what is easy for us to visualize. When I see an AU on my display, I know that is the theoretical distance between the Earth and the Sun, and that distance is huge compared to a meter. If I were to see Light-Second, I would be searching the internet for conversion factors to break it down to something I would understand. So in all, I think AU makes more sense in the game because how many people really know how far a Light-Second is without looking it up? Anyone with even minimal science-literacy knows that 1 AU is a little more than 8 light minutes. -- Salpad
F'nog Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2008.04.08 23:13:00 - [29] Originally by: Salpad Originally by: NightF0x Edited by: NightF0x on 08/04/2008 13:50:00 Originally by: Hesod Adee a lot of good scientific information While this makes sense, you need to step back and realize that this is just a game. You need to ask yourself one question, what makes sense to those that are using the interface? IMO, the AU measurement is easier to conceptualize than a Light-Second, even though a Light-Second is much more consistent and easier to measure. Realize that we are just humans and have to go by what is easy for us to visualize. When I see an AU on my display, I know that is the theoretical distance between the Earth and the Sun, and that distance is huge compared to a meter. If I were to see Light-Second, I would be searching the internet for conversion factors to break it down to something I would understand. So in all, I think AU makes more sense in the game because how many people really know how far a Light-Second is without looking it up? Anyone with even minimal science-literacy knows that 1 AU is a little more than 8 light minutes. True, but it's easier to use 150M km than it is to divide 150M/8/60 and go with that. Plus 312,000 km isn't that far. Would you rather say: "He's 480 light seconds away," or "He's 1 AU away"? Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said
NightF0x Chicken Coup Raiders	Posted - 2008.04.08 23:39:00 - [30] Originally by: Salpad Anyone with even minimal science-literacy knows that 1 AU is a little more than 8 light minutes. Don't assume everyone in the game knows how far the earth is away from the sun when compared to light wavelength measurements. So can you accurately tell me how far (to the nearest 10 meters) 2.45 light seconds is, without the use of a calculator and within 5 seconds? Didn't think so...that's why Meter, AU and Light-Year make sense to use as a measurement tool. ------------------------------------



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