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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
OfBalance
Caldari State
104
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Posted - 2012.03.05 07:01:00 -
[91] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:No, the fact is that missiles are easier to train because there's less total SP to be had to max out. And, of course, this actually lines out exactly with the reputation each weapon platform has. Its just a fact.
However, that doesn't matter because the real fact of the matter is that missiles and gunnery are well balanced in terms of both utility and reach. However, we're doomed to always have losers who QQ about how one is harder to train than the other.
-Liang
Who said anything about harder to train? That's completely idiotic and non-senseical. They're both perception/willpower skillsets, have the same training modifiers, and like every other skill in EVE they simply train for you - no input required except throwing them in the queue.
I think i've been careful to say, repeatedly, that missiles take fewer sp to train for and can be surgically trained for with much less time. As you say, that's a fact. The whole debate about missile and gunnery balance isn't the subject matter at hand.
Unless you weren't addressing my post, in which case, vOv. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
902
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Posted - 2012.03.05 07:14:00 -
[92] - Quote
OfBalance wrote: Who said anything about harder to train? That's completely idiotic and non-senseical. They're both perception/willpower skillsets, have the same training modifiers, and like every other skill in EVE they simply train for you - no input required except throwing them in the queue.
Way to stick with the conversation there.
Quote: I think i've been careful to say, repeatedly, that missiles take fewer sp to train for and can be surgically trained for with much less time. As you say, that's a fact. The whole debate about missile and gunnery balance isn't the subject matter at hand.
Unless you weren't addressing my post, in which case, vOv.
No, I was addressing the perpetual QQ about how SP intensive either weapon system is.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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OfBalance
Caldari State
105
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Posted - 2012.03.05 07:16:00 -
[93] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:OfBalance wrote: Who said anything about harder to train? That's completely idiotic and non-senseical. They're both perception/willpower skillsets, have the same training modifiers, and like every other skill in EVE they simply train for you - no input required except throwing them in the queue.
Way to stick with the conversation there. Quote: I think i've been careful to say, repeatedly, that missiles take fewer sp to train for and can be surgically trained for with much less time. As you say, that's a fact. The whole debate about missile and gunnery balance isn't the subject matter at hand.
Unless you weren't addressing my post, in which case, vOv.
No, I was addressing the perpetual QQ about how SP intensive either weapon system is. -Liang
I am easily confused.
http://imgur.com/gallery/8rtrB |
Ji Mei Xu
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.03.05 09:40:00 -
[94] - Quote
I ALSO LIKE TO POST ABOUT THINGS. THIS IS A GOOD THREAD? |
Mike Whiite
Progressive State
25
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Posted - 2012.03.05 12:37:00 -
[95] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:This thread could use some blue light We have to admit creating the Naga was possibly one of the most challenging ship balancing task ................. ............Crap, made a wall of text Well, hope that helps a bit no matter what.
Thank you for the blue light.
I like to make a suggestion to take in mind, would you people be able to take a look at the racial trades as well.
I understand Gallante must master Hybrids, drones and dampners, which result in mostly hybrid vessles with large drone bays, and Dampners with hybrids as weapon.
Minmatar and Anmar have a few missile ships in their arsanal but they are clearly a specialisation.
Caldari are completly devided (A problem best seen in the electronic attack vessles and covert-opps tree missile frigates for covert-ops -> the stealth recon is a hybrid ship, and the battleship a missile ship again) . I understand you want to give both the hybrid and the missile pilots their peace of the pie, but as Caldari favor both missile and Hybrides could we at least get a few more hardpoints of each on the ships. I'd consider that a logical adaption of a race that has a 50% Missile/Hybrid fleet.
Not saying you should put 8 launcher hardpoints on a Rokh, but say 8 turret and 6 missile hardpoints (maybe a pennalty so the ships don't get abused for their different modulation [power/cpu and cap wise] and the other way arround], bonusses should stay as they are, so in base they stay hybrid or missile ships, though this would give a little more cohersion as a race, as now for newer players Caldari seem like 2 races and I hope the future hold more Merlin [as it's the TRUE Caldari ship] like dual weapon systems ships |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
97
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Posted - 2012.03.05 14:16:00 -
[96] - Quote
Tozmeister wrote:Onictus wrote: As opposed to gunnery V small V spec IV, medium V Spec IV, large V spec IV and sharpshooting V and whatever the tracking skill is (depending on long/short range). Per turret type.
Why is it when people compare gunnery to missile training times they always include the support skills for gunnery and ignore them for missiles?
That was just to fit the turrets, you to train a Large Railgun II you need small hybrids, medium hybrid AND large hybrid five, plus spec IV in small and medium AND Sharpshooter V
...because if you don't you can't fit the damn turret, it won't let you. You add the support skills because you HAVE to have them.
Lets compare this to a cruise launcher.
Oh look, Launcher operation V Cruise missile V standard and heavy missile III.....
Its not like I wasn't giving them a fair shake.....those are just the prereqs. |
Zyress
Deaths Head Brigade Vanguard.
36
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Posted - 2012.03.05 20:42:00 -
[97] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:Small point to make, how is giving the Drake a non-predictable damage Type and allowing it to deal consistent Damage up to OMGWTFBBQ range a nerf??
Your assuning a drake needs more than 70 km of range? |
Zyress
Deaths Head Brigade Vanguard.
36
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Posted - 2012.03.05 21:28:00 -
[98] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:OfBalance wrote:Liang Nuren wrote: Not all of the missile supports apply to every missile. You can put together a hell of a bomber pilot for very little SP investment. I know. :)
-Liang
One launcher skill does not apply to unguided missiles in much the same way one gunnery skill does not apply to capless turrets. Valid argument that missile trained alts skill into their t2 large/med weapons marginally faster though. Yeah, its not only faster to train (don't have to train supports to get T2 weapons) but its also 1.3M SP that doesn't need trained at all. Quote: And what use is Controlled Bursts skill to minmatar? or Trajectory Analysis to amarr?
But thats an aside, my point is that the hue and cry from gunnery pilots about training times difference is usually pretty biased. When you factor in all support skills training times difference is very marginal.
And every comparison I see from missile users is similarly biased. Simple facts: I have 18M SP in gunnery to 11M SP in missiles. -Liang
I imagine when you say you have 18 mil in turret skils you are crosstrained in every turret type. There are 18 Turret types and 7 Lancher types in sub capital ships, yeah you got 7 more mil in Turret skills but if you have 11 more weapon systems. Compare the skill points you need for 7 turret systems to 7 launcher systems and you won't find that big a difference and its quite possible that the turrets are less skill intensive. Especially when you consider that to train long and short range versions of a turret weapon specialization you only need to take one skill to level 4 but to train long and short versions of a lancher system you need to train 2 different skills to level 5. |
Mnesarete
Harmless Scouts
2
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Posted - 2012.03.06 02:57:00 -
[99] - Quote
Personally, I think that the Tier 3 battlecruisers should be the model for all battlecruisers.
They should all fit large weapons and have cruiser-class tanks. They should all have limited defenses against smaller ships. Their advantage over a BS is their mobility.
It would revitalize the BS role immediately - since they would be the only ships with all around power and survivability.
HACs would also have a role again, since they would be in the position of having excellent DPS, tracking and tank, at a higher cost. Right now, battlecruisers are way too cost effective vis-a-vis HACs.
It would make smaller ships a viable choice again - since they wouldn't constantly run into gangs of Drakes and Hurricanes. Also, those mobile Tier 3 battlecruisers need someone else to tackle and swat smaller stuff for them.
Right now, battlecruisers are too cost effective and too good at too many things. This needs to change. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
905
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Posted - 2012.03.06 03:17:00 -
[100] - Quote
Zyress wrote: I imagine when you say you have 18 mil in turret skils you are crosstrained in every turret type. There are 18 Turret types and 7 Launcher types in sub capital ships, yeah you got 7 more mil in Turret skills but you have 11 more weapon systems. Compare the skill points you need for 7 turret systems to 7 launcher systems and you won't find that big a difference and its quite possible that the turrets are less skill intensive. Especially when you consider that to train long and short range versions of a turret weapon specialization you only need to take one skill to level 4 but to train long and short versions of a launcher system you need to train 2 different skills to level 5.
Fact: I can use all missiles. Fact: I can use all turrets. Fact: I have significantly more SP invested in gunnery than missiles Fact: It is easier to train a specific T2 missile platform than a specific T2 gun platform. Fact: You don't have to train the supports to 5 in order to use T2 large missile platforms Fact: Cross training all missile ships in the game requires less SP than cross training all gun ships. Fact: Missile performance plateaus earlier and has less total SP that can realistically be dedicated to it. Fact: Training one full turret tree is approximately equivalent to training the entire missile tree.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
97
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Posted - 2012.03.06 07:26:00 -
[101] - Quote
Zyress wrote: Especially when you consider that to train long and short range versions of a turret weapon specialization you only need to take one skill to level 4 but to train long and short versions of a launcher system you need to train 2 different skills to level 5.
Turrets are the same way
This is the pre-requisite list for a long range T2 arty
gunnery V Sharpshooter V small projectile V Small are artillery spec IV Medium projectile V Medium artillery spec IV Large projectile V Spec IV (which is where a lot of people give up lol)
Oh you want auto-cannons on your tempest too? Assuming that you already trained the above... Motion Prediction V Small spec IV Meduim spec IV Large spec IV
all of those specs to four take about 4 days a pop mapped with +4s, motion prediction and sharpshooter 6 days...each.
Not to mention the joy of the rank 5 Large weapon skill....x3 if you are trying to cover all races. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
834
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Posted - 2012.03.06 13:56:00 -
[102] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:This thread could use some blue light. We have to admit creating the Naga was possibly one of the most challenging ship balancing task we had to tackle so far. Not only because finding a proper role for it without overlapping with the Talos too much, while still remaining effective was crazy difficult, but mainly as we knew that no matter which kind of direction we picked it would still generate a heated debate among the community. The core problem here lies with the Caldari combat philosophy, or at least how it is externally perceived. Some believe Caldari to be missile based, other hybrids based. And to be honest, that is quite a logical assuption to do so, as most of the Caldari hybrid hulls are quite underused (or were before Crucible), and the most popular ships remain missile based (Caracal, Drake, Raven). As designers, we can tell Caldari have three main points going for them as a race and that is, missile, hybrids and ECM. To be an all-rounded Caldari pilot, one must realize all aspects have to be considered and learned, just like, for example, a pilot has to consider training for hybrids, drones and dampening to master most of the Gallente tech 1 ships. However, we are players as well, and we can freely admit only having one side of the coin for a new expansion is indeed frustrating. Favor the Naga as hybrid, as missile pilots feel shafted. Make it missile based and hybrid users will hunt your family down with torches and pitchforks. It is, in essence, a no win situation, no matter how much you try to please the player base. The first iteration of the Naga attempted to please all interested parties by having both missile and hybrid bonues, but as the feedback quickly shown, it was quite a failure, as it was not achieving any specific role and lacked a purpose. So, in the end, we had to go for the option that made the most logical sense. Tier 3 battlecruisers are supposed to be mobile, heavy damage support for fleets and hybrids were the most appealing to reach such goal. Torpedoes are too short range based for a hull that frail, while cruise missiles have their own issues for long range combat. It is not to say cruise missiles are fine and that we don't want to tweak them, but the Naga is, and will remain a hybrid ship as it best fits its role. The issue with missiles in general needs to be and will addressed, but that is a separate discussion altogether, that we will happily discuss with the player base when we come down to it. Crap, made a wall of text Well, hope that helps a bit no matter what.
Also: Naga is actually a far better ship for sniper role than Talos or Megathron, it's actually almost perfect for the job while being less impressive with blasters where Talos is, the well deserved title of, undisputed king.
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Zyress
Deaths Head Brigade Vanguard.
36
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Posted - 2012.03.06 18:45:00 -
[103] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Zyress wrote: I imagine when you say you have 18 mil in turret skils you are crosstrained in every turret type. There are 18 Turret types and 7 Launcher types in sub capital ships, yeah you got 7 more mil in Turret skills but you have 11 more weapon systems. Compare the skill points you need for 7 turret systems to 7 launcher systems and you won't find that big a difference and its quite possible that the turrets are less skill intensive. Especially when you consider that to train long and short range versions of a turret weapon specialization you only need to take one skill to level 4 but to train long and short versions of a launcher system you need to train 2 different skills to level 5.
Fact: I can use all missiles. Fact: I can use all turrets. Fact: I have significantly more SP invested in gunnery than missiles Fact: It is easier to train a specific T2 missile platform than a specific T2 gun platform. Fact: You don't have to train the supports to 5 in order to use T2 large missile platforms Fact: Cross training all missile ships in the game requires less SP than cross training all gun ships. Fact: Missile performance plateaus earlier and has less total SP that can realistically be dedicated to it. Fact: Training one full turret tree is approximately equivalent to training the entire missile tree. -Liang HereGÇÖs some more fun facts for you.
Standard Missile Optimization versus Artillery Optimization
Base Skill Missile Launcher Op(1x) Gunnery(1x)
Support Skills Missile Bombarment(2x) Rapid Firing(2x) Guided Missile Precision(5x) Motion Prediction(2x) Missile Projection(4x) SharpShooter(2x) Rapid Launch(2x) Surgical Strike(4x) Target Navigation Prediction(2x) Trajectory Analysis(5x) Warhead Upgrades(5x)
Fitting Skills Weapon Upgrades(2x) Weapon Upgrades(2x) Advanced Weapon Upgrades(6x) Advanced Weapon Upgrades(6x)
Weapon System Skills Standard Missile Launcher(2x) Small Projectile Turret(1x) Standard Missile Specialization(3x) Small Artillery Specialization(3x)
For Small Rail Spec or small Beam Spec you would add Controlled Bursts(2x) to the Gunnery support skills but that doesnGÇÖt really come close to matching the extra 5x skill that the Standard Missiles can use.
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Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
186
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Posted - 2012.03.06 18:50:00 -
[104] - Quote
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=9129
Bothered about teir 3 QQ? Read that and come back when you realise your sp in those skills will only now apply to one races BC.... (or two badly) |
OfBalance
Caldari State
115
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Posted - 2012.03.06 19:23:00 -
[105] - Quote
Reads like a round-about nerf to battlecruiser proliferation, at least for lower sp players. I'm not sure why they would inflate the aggregate sp required to be fully subcap proficient, but if tiericide leaves us with more viable ships then I could really care less about the former issue. Of course if you a dedicated bc pilot with minimal ship skills and all medium weapon systems trained this could be quite disruptive, not sure how common that is. |
Ireland VonVicious
Gurista Saints Assassin Confederacy
39
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Posted - 2012.03.07 04:36:00 -
[106] - Quote
This has turned into one long thread all because ccp showed everyone love except gurista specced pilots. |
Randomgenerated Alt
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.03.07 20:45:00 -
[107] - Quote
WolfeReign wrote:Also this supposed drake "nerf" is not really a nerf. added range just makes Hams alot more viable in pvp and alot of times a higher damage output is more beneficial then a little more tank
Ever try and hit a moving ship with Hams, thats not webbed?
Or rockets for that matter? They suck.... Doesnt matter if the dps is higher, and its not by much, if you cant apply it to your target.. Which is why Heavies are used 90% of the time....
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Randomgenerated Alt
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.03.07 20:47:00 -
[108] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Thelron wrote:
Torps are a sloppy mess that require so much tackle and painting on a target that they're best used for light shows and maybe the occasional ambush.
Myth bolded. Sure, if you're firing torps against Gurista frigates, then you may find them lacking. Torps are a battleship weapon, designed to be used against other battleships. The only additional tackle that they require is a painter - web support is not necessary against almost all BS - and even the painter is unnecessary against six of the twelve BS.
The cow pasture is calling...They want their bullshit back.... |
Randomgenerated Alt
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.03.07 20:50:00 -
[109] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Did anyone actually try the torp Naga when it was on SISSI? It sucked hard. The tier 3 BC only have about 30k EHP. That's enough to roll up, shoot a few times, and then GTFO. The rail Naga was the best choice. It could have been worked on.
There is nothing the naga can do that the Talos cant do better... Sniping? Talos gets better tracking and dps. Not quite the range.
There is no reason to fly a naga when the Talos is better in every way....
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Randomgenerated Alt
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.03.07 20:52:00 -
[110] - Quote
Ireland VonVicious wrote:I think people are still missing the two main points of what I started this thread:
1. BC balance is way off now when comparing the weapons skills aspect. (( was already bad for drones ))
2. Missle/drone combo is already the rarest used. Mainly due to it being so niche. It's sad that hybrids got buff, All guns got tier 3 bc's and the drake gets a small nerf all in the same time period. (( the timing was awful ))
I have no issue with all 4 tier 3 BC's being guns. (( it just would have been nice to see them released with faction BC's at the same time ))
I'm also a bit WTF that ccp changed the drake before dealing with the hurricane.
The naga should have been a missile boat. For some reason people on here think that its a great ship, but fail to realize, the Talos can do the same and better...
The naga had a chance to be a good missile ship, but ccp taking the easy route, made it a gun boat instead.. Its take far less time to learn to fly a Talos than it does to learn Torps or cruise to lvl 5.
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
98
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Posted - 2012.03.08 01:22:00 -
[111] - Quote
Randomgenerated Alt wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:Did anyone actually try the torp Naga when it was on SISSI? It sucked hard. The tier 3 BC only have about 30k EHP. That's enough to roll up, shoot a few times, and then GTFO. The rail Naga was the best choice. It could have been worked on. There is nothing the naga can do that the Talos cant do better... Sniping? Talos gets better tracking and dps. Not quite the range. There is no reason to fly a naga when the Talos is better in every way....
Naga to Talos? More range, more tank.
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Sekan
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.03.31 01:30:00 -
[112] - Quote
Just want to say the new tier 3 BC look and feel is very badly designed....get a better designer |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
97
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Posted - 2012.03.31 14:24:00 -
[113] - Quote
How about not bothering with threads like these until AFTER Inferno and the tiercide? http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Tobiaz/sig_complaints.gif
How about fixing image-linking on the forums, CCP? I want to see signatures! |
OfBalance
Caldari State
358
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Posted - 2012.03.31 17:42:00 -
[114] - Quote
Tobiaz wrote:How about not bothering with threads like these until AFTER Inferno and the tiercide?
In fairness to the OP, whom I disagree with; iirc this thread pre-dates the tiericide announcement.
The necropost however, is quite fresh. |
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