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CSM candidates: what do you think about T2 BPOs?

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Adria Eqviis Leffe Industries and Co Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:38:00 - [1] Hello all, Hello CSM candidates, I've browsed a few CSM candidate statements by now, and no one seems to have thought about the - well, issue - of T2 Blueprint Originals that remain in game from the lottery. My opinion is that some of them disturb the T2 market very hard; a small number of them probably is a licence to print ISK. I'm hoping to hear each CSM candidate say what they think about this. Statements in this thread are OK, statements on your websites (with a link in this thread) are better :). -Adria Eqviis
Adria Eqviis Leffe Industries and Co Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:39:00 - [2] [reserved]
Duncan Bannatyne Machiavellian Intuition	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:41:00 - [3] Invention is there.. so prices are regulated. They can still be purchased from other players. They stabilize markets other people just simply don't want to produce into. Go away. No, I don't and havn't produced from a T2 BPO.
Adria Eqviis Leffe Industries and Co Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:44:00 - [4] Originally by: Duncan Bannatyne Invention is there.. so prices are regulated. They can still be purchased from other players. They stabilize markets other people just simply don't want to produce into. Why T2 BPOs and invented T2 BPCs differ hard: - you can research T2 BPOs. A T2 BPO might have ME10 while a T2 BPC will have ME -4 by default. You can only raise that by using (expensive) decryptors, BPCs cannot be researched. - you can sell copies of T2 BPOs. Copy time is rather high on most T2 BPOs though. - T2 BPC invention consumes datacores and fails unless you have uber skills. And you need to repeat it every few runs. T2 BPO: "just produce". From the ME difference alone, an invented T2 item will cost the producer 20-70% more in materials, not including datacores, decryptors and failed attempts.
Duncan Bannatyne Machiavellian Intuition	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:52:00 - [5] Yes, and the BPOs cost alot more to buy than a BPC costs to invent. BPOs should have the ME difference, to set them apart. Only bad T2 BPOs get copied.
Iron Ball School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:58:00 - [6] Originally by: Duncan Bannatyne Yes, and the BPOs cost alot more to buy than a BPC costs to invent. BPOs should have the ME difference, to set them apart. Only bad T2 BPOs get copied. BPO cost is irrevelant, you're paying X bill to buy a money making machine.
Adria Eqviis Leffe Industries and Co Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:59:00 - [7] Originally by: Duncan Bannatyne Yes, and the BPOs cost alot more to buy than a BPC costs to invent. BPOs should have the ME difference, to set them apart. So you can buy a licence to control the market for a specific item for a few billions. Your T2 BPO will gain value over time as there are no new T2 BPOs introduced. And while watching the theoretical value of your BPO increase, you also see ISK pouring in from your sale orders no inventor can compete with. This is comparable to patents in the real world. However, patents have expiry dates - and decrease in value therefore - BPOs don't. They only get shot up when someone is stupid enough to take them out of station. Originally by: Duncan Bannatyne Only bad T2 BPOs get copied. Yeah, I know. ME6/PE10/100 Run Crokite Mining Crystal II BPCs go for 15M nonetheless.
Batwigg B and D	Posted - 2008.04.09 01:13:00 - [8] Originally by: Adria Eqviis Originally by: Duncan Bannatyne Yes, and the BPOs cost alot more to buy than a BPC costs to invent. BPOs should have the ME difference, to set them apart. So you can buy a licence to control the market for a specific item for a few billions. I fail to see the problem. Welcome to capitalist society.
Matsui Hideki Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2008.04.09 01:15:00 - [9] Awww, isn't that cute, angry that you don't have one?
Ben Derindar Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.04.09 01:34:00 - [10] Originally by: Adria Eqviis Originally by: Duncan Bannatyne Yes, and the BPOs cost alot more to buy than a BPC costs to invent. BPOs should have the ME difference, to set them apart. So you can buy a licence to control the market for a specific item for a few billions. I think "control" is overstating the issue. We saw a good degree of that control prior to invention, but hardly anymore. Remember also that the blueprint is only a small part of the equation. I would suggest that the greater degree of control of T2 prices these days in fact lies with those who own the right moons, not those who own the BPOs. You might see me questioning the sense of static isk printing machines in whatever form they may take (the old complexes, T2 BPOs pre-invention), but I don't think that includes T2 BPOs in the current environment. /Ben Ben Derindar: Eve CSM candidate
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.04.09 01:48:00 - [11] posting in another self-absorbed sea ess em thread ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Adria Eqviis Leffe Industries and Co Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.09 01:56:00 - [12] Originally by: Ben Derindar I think "control" is overstating the issue. We saw a good degree of that control prior to invention, but hardly anymore. Yes, I agree with you in 95% of the cases. I do however think that there are T2 items where the ME difference makes it lucrative enough to either buy T2 BPCs or haul them all over the universe. High-priced small items come to mind, although all high-priced items are good candidates. I don't currently have a clear opinion about what I would change. Just to give some possibilities: - change T2 BPO PE/ME to -3 and make them unresearchable. They still have the advantage of not needing datacores/decryptors, and being unlimited count. - put a run limit on them. This would basically be phasing them out slowly - remove the possibilty of copying them and decrease their PE, limiting the number of items produced from them per amount of time - leave them as-is - ...more possibilities? Originally by: Ben Derindar Remember also that the blueprint is only a small part of the equation. I would suggest that the greater degree of control of T2 prices these days in fact lies with those who own the right moons, not those who own the BPOs. Hmm. Can Highsec moons be attacked with a war declaration out? If so, this makes them a resource you can fight for. A T2 BPO you cannot take from someone with force. -Adria (Thanks for your statement!)
Rabbitgod Veto. Academy Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.04.09 01:57:00 - [13] Edited by: Rabbitgod on 09/04/2008 01:57:50 Invention should provide a chance to produce named T2 BPC's. Selling that set of T2 modal mega neutron particle accelerator II's or a single T2 eutectic II capacitor charge array would more than make up for fails, and crappy ME rates. The other effect would be lower prices on unnamed T2 because their would be less demand for it and the inventors could afford to lower the price because of the occasional luck of getting named T2 BPC's.
Tek'a Rain Collegium Mechanicae	Posted - 2008.04.09 02:36:00 - [14] Originally by: Adria Eqviis Hmm. Can Highsec moons be attacked with a war declaration out? If so, this makes them a resource you can fight for. A T2 BPO you cannot take from someone with force. -Adria (Thanks for your statement!) Your question makes it obvious that you have not fully considered the issue, or have tried to the best of your ability and failed. Yes, T2 BPOs are old. No, we dont need to remove, change or limit them in Any new way. Yes, they were very profitable, in a monopoly style. No, they are not currently unlimited isk printers. Yes, they effect the current market. No, not in a bad way, instead they prop it up and help create a stable baseline. Try moon mining at a hisec moon before you ask if it can be wardecced and change hands. Try Inventing (with any profit, or at least limited loss) a wide variety of Items: ~Small t2 drones. ~t2 ammo and missiles. ~a wide spectrum of those lesser used modules that are still found and needed all over. See the need to have T2 BPOs, in their current form, yet? and for the obvious bloody disclaimer.. No, I dont own a freakin T2 BPO, Neither does my corp, my momma, my poppa or even me lil' baby sister. I don't especially care to own one, even if the needed cash to buy one was available because I Really don't feel like wrangling with that many production lines and logistics demands. (ignoring for the moment that the projected 'repay' time for almost every 'print that ever hits market rates into 6 to 12 months or beyond) My interest in the subject comes from trying to stomp out silly thinking and preventing backwards schemes from impacting my gameplay.
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific Interstellar Corporate Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.09 02:53:00 - [15] Originally by: Iron Ball BPO cost is irrevelant, you're paying X bill to buy a money making machine. You obviously do not know what it is exactly you are talking about, when you spouting crap like "money making machine." Look at Eos BPO, one of many I might add, the damn thing barely makes 200 Mill/Month. Get a grip on your envy mate. T2 BPOs aint what it used to be.
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific Interstellar Corporate Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.09 02:55:00 - [16] Originally by: Tek'a Rain Originally by: Adria Eqviis Hmm. Can Highsec moons be attacked with a war declaration out? If so, this makes them a resource you can fight for. A T2 BPO you cannot take from someone with force. -Adria (Thanks for your statement!) Your question makes it obvious that you have not fully considered the issue, or have tried to the best of your ability and failed. Yes, T2 BPOs are old. No, we dont need to remove, change or limit them in Any new way. Yes, they were very profitable, in a monopoly style. No, they are not currently unlimited isk printers. Yes, they effect the current market. No, not in a bad way, instead they prop it up and help create a stable baseline. Try moon mining at a hisec moon before you ask if it can be wardecced and change hands. Try Inventing (with any profit, or at least limited loss) a wide variety of Items: ~Small t2 drones. ~t2 ammo and missiles. ~a wide spectrum of those lesser used modules that are still found and needed all over. See the need to have T2 BPOs, in their current form, yet? and for the obvious bloody disclaimer.. No, I dont own a freakin T2 BPO, Neither does my corp, my momma, my poppa or even me lil' baby sister. I don't especially care to own one, even if the needed cash to buy one was available because I Really don't feel like wrangling with that many production lines and logistics demands. (ignoring for the moment that the projected 'repay' time for almost every 'print that ever hits market rates into 6 to 12 months or beyond) My interest in the subject comes from trying to stomp out silly thinking and preventing backwards schemes from impacting my gameplay. Oh, and QFT. I normally do not have as much patience with some people as Tek'a exhibited above, kudos mate.
DelboyTrotter	Posted - 2008.04.09 04:43:00 - [17] Heres a solution, just remove then all from game.. These guys have already made their billions from them, its not like any of them had to put any effort to get them, besides either knowing a GM or getting lucky in the lottery. The only ppl that will whine and be effected by this are the rich few that currently own one. :D
Bane Glorious	Posted - 2008.04.09 05:11:00 - [18] Tech 2 BPOs are really not as valuable as they used to be, both for the individual and for EVE's economy as a whole. Tech 2 BPOs only represent a fraction of the total volume of T2 goods out there today, the vast majority comes from invention. After all, part of the reason that invention was put into the game was because T2 BPOs simply could not keep up with the quantity demanded. As an ISK printing machine, I'd say it's true in some specific cases, and while removing the T2 BPOs or replacing them with super-max-run BPCs is an option, making invention costs lower for the producer would be just as good. Lower prices on invention attempts and lower waste penalties would reduce the prices of tech 2 goods for the consumer, especially in the case of ships, which would diminish the importance of T2 BPOs. Yet still, they would still be since production would be much less complicated with a BPO instead of inventing. And then of course, as mentioned above, T2 BPOs are the only way to produce ammo and apparently drones that is even halfway profitable, though that's a problem with invention more than anything else.
Riho	Posted - 2008.04.09 05:20:00 - [19] Originally by: Adria Eqviis Hello all, Hello CSM candidates, I've browsed a few CSM candidate statements by now, and no one seems to have thought about the - well, issue - of T2 Blueprint Originals that remain in game from the lottery. My opinion is that some of them disturb the T2 market very hard; a small number of them probably is a licence to print ISK. I'm hoping to hear each CSM candidate say what they think about this. Statements in this thread are OK, statements on your websites (with a link in this thread) are better :). -Adria Eqviis as a inventor i say that t2 bpos are not IWIN buttons... in most cases i make alot more isk than BPO holders do :) how you may ask? well its simple. i get 40 BPC whit 10 runs... i can build 100 at a time whit one character.... the BPO holder can do only 10 at the same time. now the real issue is the moon holders like has been said before... there arent enough good moons to meet the demand atm :( ---------------------------------- Yes... this is my main. Extreme Troll Slayer...
Athanasios Anastasiou	Posted - 2008.04.09 06:08:00 - [20] Edited by: Athanasios Anastasiou on 09/04/2008 06:08:49 This thread reeks of 'If I can't have it, no one can' attitude. Grow up. How about actually providing some economic reason as to why they deserve to be nerfed? As in not 'Wah Wah they can make more isk then I can! Nerf!!' No, I don't own a t2 bpo.
Venkul Mul	Posted - 2008.04.09 06:12:00 - [21] Originally by: Iron Ball Originally by: Duncan Bannatyne Yes, and the BPOs cost alot more to buy than a BPC costs to invent. BPOs should have the ME difference, to set them apart. Only bad T2 BPOs get copied. BPO cost is irrevelant, you're paying X bill to buy a money making machine. It is plenty relevant when you pay 2 year of production to get a item. Maybe you fail at economy 101 but when purchasing something the time needed to start gaining from it is very important. And no, they aren't a money making machine, or at least no more than a CNR or a POS with a good moon. Want to remove those too as a pilot in a CNR make more money that a pilot in a navy megathron doing missions?
Zartach Tzarszh	Posted - 2008.04.09 06:16:00 - [22] T2 BPO's are becoming a smaller issue every day, this is due to owners going longtime awol etc. I know of a 60 odd BPO's lying in someones hangar and hes off playing LOTRO in stead of EVE. And yes this was because when invention hit he actually had to work for a profit :D
Venkul Mul	Posted - 2008.04.09 06:18:00 - [23] Originally by: Adria Eqviis So you can buy a licence to control the market for a specific item for a few billions. Your T2 BPO will gain value over time as there are no new T2 BPOs introduced. And while watching the theoretical value of your BPO increase, you also see ISK pouring in from your sale orders no inventor can compete with. This is comparable to patents in the real world. However, patents have expiry dates - and decrease in value therefore - BPOs don't. They only get shot up when someone is stupid enough to take them out of station. Originally by: Duncan Bannatyne Only bad T2 BPOs get copied. Yeah, I know. ME6/PE10/100 Run Crokite Mining Crystal II BPCs go for 15M nonetheless. A BPO owner don't control the market unless the market is so small that the BPO can cover all demand. T2BPO will not increase value, rarity has no effect if buyers have a little brain. The only thing affecting value is the possible gain building from the BPO against the gain building from invented BPC. Excluding very few BPO the low sell offer are mostly from people thinking that self mined minerals and self produced datacores are free. Patents get you $ from all the producer of the item, not only what you produce.
Ky Mena	Posted - 2008.04.09 06:28:00 - [24] with the current state of T2 market, they need to remove invention and reintroduce the lottery if anything. with the large amount of ppl getting into invention, moon minerals mined and sold on the market is no where near the demand. and btw, most T2 ship BPOs, especially good ones are owned by big alliance/cooperation, for in corp/ in alliance sale rather than for profits on the market. most T2 bpo makes so few profit ppl are selling them all over the place! I sell, I buy, I survive
Juwi Kotch	Posted - 2008.04.09 08:34:00 - [25] T2 BPOs used to be an issue, but they aren't anymore. With introducing invention and optimizing its effects and costs, a serious producer today can produce with similar costs and results via invention compared to an investment into a T2 BPO. This of course actually was very different before invention was introduced. The T2 BPO lottery was one of the worst ideas ever from CCP, and I didn't (and still don't) like it one bit. Pilots who have won a T2 BPO in the auction (and I know of some who have won 10 or more of them) still have an advantage, but it is not that big anymore and its effects are not that drastic anymore that it would be worth to make some fuzz about it. I personally, by the way, never have won a T2 BPO, although I have participated in the lottery for close like 1 1/2 years, and never have bought one. An a different note, a capable producer and trader can make much more money with some easily available T1 BPOs, and I'm not talking Battleships (or any other ship) here... Juwi Kotch http://www.erah.de/pics/CSM%20Campaign.pdf Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.[/url] Discussion Board
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.04.09 09:41:00 - [26] First sensible candidate in favor of bringing the lottery back gets my vote.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.04.09 09:52:00 - [27] Originally by: Danton Marcellus First sensible candidate in favor of bringing the lottery back gets my vote. Im interested in hearing a sensible argument as to why you want the lottery back. The job of the CSM is to listen to the community, not to push forward personal interests
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Carpe Universitas	Posted - 2008.04.09 10:00:00 - [28] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Danton Marcellus First sensible candidate in favor of bringing the lottery back gets my vote. Im interested in hearing a sensible argument as to why you want the lottery back. The job of the CSM is to listen to the community, not to push forward personal interests He's one of those who won many (!!) T2 BPOs in the lottery. And not only ammo BPOs... Juwi Kotch
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.04.09 10:04:00 - [29] Originally by: Juwi Kotch Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Danton Marcellus First sensible candidate in favor of bringing the lottery back gets my vote. Im interested in hearing a sensible argument as to why you want the lottery back. The job of the CSM is to listen to the community, not to push forward personal interests He's one of those who won many (!!) T2 BPOs in the lottery. And not only ammo BPOs... Juwi Kotch Oh, im very well aware of the rather... lets just say large portfolio of T2 BPO's these guys had(have?). But having read a few posts in the past, im fairly sure Danton can make a sound argument why it should be introduced again.
Adria Eqviis	Posted - 2008.04.09 10:18:00 - [30] Originally by: Riho well its simple. i get 40 BPC whit 10 runs... i can build 100 at a time whit one character.... the BPO holder can do only 10 at the same time. Interestingly enough, I only realised this connection after starting this thread. Thank you. :) Originally by: Bane Glorious And then of course, as mentioned above, T2 BPOs are the only way to produce ammo and apparently drones that is even halfway profitable, though that's a problem with invention more than anything else. Originally by: Tek'a Rain Yes, they effect the current market. No, not in a bad way, instead they prop it up and help create a stable baseline. This is the core point where I disagree. These are the markets that are governed by T2 BPOs, and which I think need some proper eyeing from CCP. Originally by: Riho now the real issue is the moon holders like has been said before... there arent enough good moons to meet the demand atm :( Weird. I know a few people that tried Moon Mining lately (in 0.0). They all stopped it since Moon Mineral prices seemed to be falling like stones. Something doesn't add up here... (And no, they weren't selling in 0.0, they hauled it to Jita)

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