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[Proposal] Skill Training Change

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Titania Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2012.02.27 05:14:00 - [1] - Quote This has probably been discussed numerous times before; I haven't searched the entire forum. Get rid of out of game skill training. Now before you all go ballistic hear me out. One of the major faults with the current system is one that has been around the block on many forums since the game first launched; that of new players never being able to catch up with the veterans and this puts a lot of people off playing the game. I myself know three players that actually login to the game no more than a couple of times a month; each time for a few minutes to check their training queue and market. Changing the system would allow players who actually play to catch up and remove that obstacle. To compensate for losing the ability to train out of game the training times would need to be reduced accordingly which in itself removes another percieved obstacle to new players; the perception that skill training takes too long. A danger to this of course is that people could just leave their toons logged in all day so I would also propose an automatic logout after 60 minutes of innactivity, perhaps with a warning popup that if not cancelled will result in the logout. This would also take care of a number of other issues such as mining bots etc. Who would this measure upset? The people that login for two minutes a month to set the training queue and those that use afk bots or exploits. Who would benefit? The people who actually play the game.
mxzf Shovel Bros 768	Posted - 2012.02.27 05:33:00 - [2] - Quote So, you want to completely break one of the core features of Eve which sets it apart from other MMOs (in a great way). HA! You don't need to 'catch up' with another player's SP completely. First off, the 5-level skill system makes it so that you can be completely even with another player that has twice your SP in certain areas. SP doesn't make you any better, it just gives you more options. Your understanding of the skill system is fundamentally flawed, which has led you to post an idea which is, quite frankly, stupid. The skill system already works extremely well as-is.
Bam Stroker InterSun Freelance Moon Warriors 13	Posted - 2012.02.27 05:48:00 - [3] - Quote This idea is terribad.
Mara Rinn Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium 979	Posted - 2012.02.27 06:03:00 - [4] - Quote Titania wrote: One of the major faults with the current system is one that has been around the block on many forums since the game first launched; that of new players never being able to catch up with the veterans and this puts a lot of people off playing the game. How much better can a 100M SP "veteran" character fly a Rifter than a 20M SP character? Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration provides no benefit to rifter-flying. Electronic Warfare provides some benefit to unusual fit outs, Jump Drive Calibration has no impact, nor do Multitasking, Energy Emission Systems, Production Efficiency, Scrapmetal Processing, Starbase Defence Operation, or Ethnic Relations. You'll find that you max out the skills required for flying a Rifter when you can fit T2 modules & rigs of every kind and use 5 percent implants related to flying that ship. Heck, with enough ISK you don't even need to use T2 modules. Officer-fit that Rifter for a huge advantage over the competition! Titania wrote: I myself know three players that actually login to the game no more than a couple of times a month; each time for a few minutes to check their training queue and market. Why are they still logging in? Are they waiting for their characters to get "enough skills" to compete with someone? Or are these other players logging in various market alts to update the training queue and market orders? Titania wrote: Changing the system would allow players who actually play to catch up and remove that obstacle. The existing system allows people who don't have 12 hours a day to play the game, to play on a relatively level playing field. No longer do the high school dropouts gain an advantage simply because they can grind for XP and legendary items 12 hours a day compared to my 12 hours a month! Titania wrote: Who would this measure upset? The people who play the game in the free time afforded by their real life. Fixed that for you. This is a classic example of players making very bad game designers. You have reached a point where there are a series of long skill training sessions ahead of you (perhaps 7 days to get from frigate to battleship?) and it occurs to you that the game would be more entertaining for you if you could short-circuit that training time somehow. It doesn't occur to you that the real time training means you have to make compromises. You can't train a character to fly a Titan this year if you also want to run a corporation of a few hundred people. You have to choose: Battleship 5, or Ethnic Relations? It is the sacrifices and compromises you have to make on the journey that make the game fun and challenging. If you were able to shortcut the training by staying logged in, so would everyone else. Then you'd find that some people would manage to stay logged in from downtime to downtime, far in excess of your ability to stay logged in for a few hours a night. Before suggesting changes to game mechanics that you perceive would be to your benefit, just remember that there is always someone out there who has more time and money to spend on the game than you do. Imagine how much fun your game would be if the "veterans" were able to shortcut their own training the same way you can, except the "veterans" also have twice as much time to spend on their hobby as you do. So you might suggest a limit of X hours a day of skill-training-while-logged-in, which would eventually have to be wound back to fewer hours than you play, because there's always someone out there who doesn't have as much time and money to throw at the game as you do. Why should you have an advantage over them? After all, you want to be fair, don't you? So ultimately the "skill training for being logged in" time gets reduced to the minimum amount of time that anyone spends logged in: for the sake of the exercise, let's say it's about 30 seconds per day. Now everyone has to log in for at least 30 seconds a day in order to remain competitive, since the skill training speed is so damned fast that not logging in for 30 seconds means you fall a day behind everyone else. Sure, that's an exercise in reductio ad absurdium, but can you see that all these game features have to be evaluated from many perspectives? You are not the only person who plays the game. Having skills train in real time is the most fair method of character development short of not having skills at all.
Titania Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2012.02.27 09:53:00 - [5] - Quote A few expected responses from long time players I see, afraid someone may actually be able to compete? The example with the rifter was hilarious ( keep the noobs in crappy frigates they don't deserve to be as l33t as me ). i also caught a hint of suggestion that I only want the skill change to benefit myself; far from it considering I started to play Eve when the game first released ( check my employment history before assuming ). Eve needs new blood as any MMO does and a change that removes one of the major obstacles to new people playing has to be a good thing; why do you think it is that no other MMO before Eve or since uses this system?
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 3067	Posted - 2012.02.27 10:27:00 - [6] - Quote About 4 seconds after this went live, some people would be macrobotting skills, and "powerlevelling" services would sprout up like mushrooms. "veteran" players are at least as capable of doing this as new players - in fact they're probably more capable, since they're more likely to have multiple accounts and they'll be able to leave whichever ones they're not using right now macroskilling away. A classic demonstration of Malcanis' Law in action. So yeah no, I'm not enthusiastic. One of the biggest attractions of EVE is that you can spend your game time achieving your goals, rather than having to grind skills. You're still stuck in the skinner box of thinking that "leveling" your character as the goal, rather than increasing skills to use as a tool to attain those goals. It's understandable, since in almost all other MMO, you can only 'win' by maximising numbers on your character sheet, because no-one gives a crap that you're the 13,896,514th guy to kill Naxia or whatever. Try and jettison that thinking. It's incredible to me that you've finally found a game which frees you from the grindmill of "levelling" and yet you actually want to climb right back on it. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players. Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Samillian Moonshine Industries The Last Chancers. 86	Posted - 2012.02.27 10:44:00 - [7] - Quote Even without an in depth knowledge of bot programming I can see this creating a new industry over night and gutting a key feature of this game.
Danika Princip Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team 242	Posted - 2012.02.27 10:51:00 - [8] - Quote Sounds like a wonderful way to turn EVE into space-wow. You know what happens to wow clones, right?
Titania Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2012.02.27 11:03:00 - [9] - Quote Malcanis wrote: About 4 seconds after this went live, some people would be macrobotting skills, and "powerlevelling" services would sprout up like mushrooms. "veteran" players are at least as capable of doing this as new players - in fact they're probably more capable, since they're more likely to have multiple accounts and they'll be able to leave whichever ones they're not using right now macroskilling away. A classic demonstration of Malcanis' Law in action. So yeah no, I'm not enthusiastic. One of the biggest attractions of EVE is that you can spend your game time achieving your goals, rather than having to grind skills. You're still stuck in the skinner box of thinking that "leveling" your character as the goal, rather than increasing skills to use as a tool to attain those goals. It's understandable, since in almost all other MMO, you can only 'win' by maximising numbers on your character sheet, because no-one gives a crap that you're the 13,896,514th guy to kill Naxia or whatever. Try and jettison that thinking. It's incredible to me that you've finally found a game which frees you from the grindmill of "levelling" and yet you actually want to climb right back on it. you missed this bit Titania wrote: This of course would still require the automatic logout feature to prevent it from being exploited. The MMO industry are akin to a flock of carrion birds; every really good idea is quickly pounced upon by the flock, copied and inserted into their upcoming games. Eve's skill training system has been avoided like the plague and for good reason. I see nothing wrong with rewarding people for the work they put in; if someone works twice as hard as me then they should have twice the reward. Wouldn't we all love it if we could sit at home all day watching TV and still collect our pay-cheques at the end of the month? and this is exactly what the current skill system allows you to do. Instead we have to go to work to get that pay and that is a good thing because if we all stayed home the world would grind to a halt. I am open to better ideas if anyone has any.
Titania Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2012.02.27 11:14:00 - [10] - Quote Danika Princip wrote: Sounds like a wonderful way to turn EVE into space-wow. You know what happens to wow clones, right? So are you saying that pre-nge SWG was a WoW clone? No it was a sandbox and one fondly remembered by those vets that played it; skill based and no out of game skill increases.
Plaude Pollard Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2012.02.27 11:41:00 - [11] - Quote The skill-training system is one of the few things in EVE that doesn't need to be fixed whatsoever. Why? Because it works as well as intended, if not better. As they say, "If it ain't broken, don't **** it up horribly." What you want won't help balancing anything at all. You just want to be able to catch up to those with more SP who don't have as much EVE-time as you. If anything, I can point out a dozen things that CCP should rather take a look at revising.
Smiling Menace Star Nebulae Holdings Inc. 139	Posted - 2012.02.27 11:47:00 - [12] - Quote So you are basically saying that all the effort and years of game play that I had to do should be thrown out so someone new to the game can compete with me? Sure, I'll agree as long as my 5 years of subscriptions and SP are refunded to me so we can all start with a clean sheet. Seems fair, don't you think? Seeing as you like real world examples of why this is a stupid idea, how about comparing this to the 16 year old just out of school (the noob) joins a company for his first job. The company has been around for many years and the guy that's hiring him (the veteran) has been there since day one. Now going with your idea the noob should have the veterans job so he can 'compete' in the job market. He shouldn't need to learn anything, or have to grind his way to making money. No, it should be just handed to him because it's 'fair'. That's what you are asking for. Never gonna happen.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 3068	Posted - 2012.02.27 12:47:00 - [13] - Quote Titania wrote: Malcanis wrote: About 4 seconds after this went live, some people would be macrobotting skills, and "powerlevelling" services would sprout up like mushrooms. "veteran" players are at least as capable of doing this as new players - in fact they're probably more capable, since they're more likely to have multiple accounts and they'll be able to leave whichever ones they're not using right now macroskilling away. A classic demonstration of Malcanis' Law in action. So yeah no, I'm not enthusiastic. One of the biggest attractions of EVE is that you can spend your game time achieving your goals, rather than having to grind skills. You're still stuck in the skinner box of thinking that "leveling" your character as the goal, rather than increasing skills to use as a tool to attain those goals. It's understandable, since in almost all other MMO, you can only 'win' by maximising numbers on your character sheet, because no-one gives a crap that you're the 13,896,514th guy to kill Naxia or whatever. Try and jettison that thinking. It's incredible to me that you've finally found a game which frees you from the grindmill of "levelling" and yet you actually want to climb right back on it. you missed this bit [quote=Titania] This of course would still require the automatic logout feature to prevent it from being exploited... No I didn't miss it. You suggest an automatic logout for inactivity - fair enough. But a skillbot/powerlevelling service means that the character won't be inactive. Your idea is bad, and it goes against the whole idea of EVE. You suggest that people should be "rewarded for playing". Well they are! They accumulate assets, shoot their enemies, rep their friends, they get to actually achieve meaningful goals in an open world. Like I said: you're stuck in the old-fashioned RPG mindset where the object of the game is to maximise your character's stats. EVE is not such a game. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players. Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Drake Draconis Nexus Advanced Technologies Fidelas Constans 347	Posted - 2012.02.27 17:49:00 - [14] - Quote Look Ma...its a bitter-bought-toon ####ing about skills! ================ FloppieTheBanjoClown for CSM 7!
Vertisce Soritenshi Varion Galactic Tragedy. 1111	Posted - 2012.02.27 18:26:00 - [15] - Quote The way skills training works in this regard will never change. May as well just give up now on this one. This is one of those mechanics at the very heart of EvE that makes it what it is. Change this and you may as well just make a new game. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!!
FloppieTheBanjoClown The Skunkworks Petition Blizzard 1030	Posted - 2012.02.27 19:06:00 - [16] - Quote Yes, let's reward those who are able to jog their mouse every 55 minutes by giving them lots of skill points, while the rest of us can only train for a few hours a day at best.
FloppieTheBanjoClown The Skunkworks Petition Blizzard 1030	Posted - 2012.02.27 19:07:00 - [17] - Quote Titania wrote: Who would this measure upset? The people that login for two minutes a month to set the training queue and those that use afk bots or exploits. Who would benefit? The people who actually play the game. I could write a simple script that would allow me to circumvent your little attempt at preventing idling. And I'm not that good a programmer. Who would benefit? No one.
Velicitia Open Designs 680	Posted - 2012.02.27 20:14:00 - [18] - Quote ugh ... whatever happened to that proposal that NPC-corp toons were banned from posting ideas?
Tidurious The Dirty Rejects Scelus Sceleris. 107	Posted - 2012.02.27 20:21:00 - [19] - Quote This is one of the worst ideas I've read in the assembly hall. A couple of points: 1. ****** ideas like this should go to Features and Ideas before being posted in Assembly Hall; that keeps Assembly Hall open for ideas that actually have merit. 2. EVE skill training style MAKE THE GAME. You want to turn EVE into WoW - not going to happen. As has been stated, this idea is stupid on EVERY level 3. After you biomass yourself, WoW is over there ---->>
Mallak Azaria Dominus Nex Angelus 66	Posted - 2012.02.27 20:30:00 - [20] - Quote OP is mad because specialising is too hard to figure out.
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance 433	Posted - 2012.02.27 23:14:00 - [21] - Quote cracks knuckles chugs coffee All right... let's du theeesss... Titania wrote: Get rid of out of game skill training. ...(snip)... One of the major faults with the current system is one that has been around the block on many forums since the game first launched; that of new players never being able to catch up with the veterans and this puts a lot of people off playing the game. There is no such thing as "catching up" in EVE. At least... not the way you see it. On the skill system itself... - Every skill caps out at level 5. - Only a certain number of skills affect any one ship/module/weapon at any given time. - The difference between having a skill at level 4 and level 5 is about 2 to 5% per skill... this means that if you have a whole bunch of skills in a certain specialty at level 4, you are operating at about 80% to 90% of the "effectiveness" of someone who has all the same skills at level 5 (which is rarely the case because getting a skill to level 5 is supposed to be time consuming and painful). What the skill system does... - By having the skill system time down automatically, players can freely explore the world around them and/or focus on the goals they set for themselves rather than be consumed with the idea of "becoming more powerful." - Not having access to the "top rated" ships, weapons, and equipment means that a player must think of ways around his/her lacking skills to tackle a problem. Hire a guy who can probe? How about fitting this mod here? - By being "denied" access to higher level equipment until one's skills are up to snuff, a newbie is "protected" in a sense from his/her own stupidity/ignorance. True, any loss a newbie incurs early on is going to hurt... but how much more painful do you think things would be if the newbie spent all of his/her time "powerleveling" and then went out in an expensive ship only to lose it? How ships and mods factor into all this... - Ships are balanced against each other. Battleships may have beefier tanks and higher "on-paper" damage potential... but they require a god awful amount of training to use to their fullest potential, are slow, have trouble target locking small ships, have trouble applying damage to small ships. That "crappy frigate" that a newbie is flying can last a long time against a fully skilled battleship if the frigate pilot has been taught well (hell... it's entirely possible for a frigate gang to take down a bunch of battleships and a goddamn CAPITAL ship... http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12566220 ) - Smaller ships require less character skills to use well... and the training time for said skills are among the shortest in the game. - T2 ships are not "I-Win" buttons. They are (for the most part) "specialty" ships that give up their T1 variants' "general functionality" in favor of a slightly beefier tank, and high prowess in a specific tactic. Outside of this "specialty," a T1 ship can often rip a T2 ship apart (ex. a Zealot can kill a frigate at long range, but if a frigate orbits a Zealot at 500m the frigate will eventually chew down the T2 cruiser). Titania wrote: I myself know three players that actually login to the game no more than a couple of times a month; each time for a few minutes to check their training queue and market. Changing the system would allow players who actually play to catch up and remove that obstacle. Tell those players that they don't NEED the best skills to compete (as I detailed above). All you need is a healthy self evaluation of your strengths and weaknesses and a plan that capitalizes on your strengths and gets around your weaknesses. Like another said above... you need to view your skills as tools... a means to an end, not an end in of themselves. Titania wrote: A danger to this of course is that people could just leave their toons logged in all day so I would also propose an automatic logout after 60 minutes of innactivity, perhaps with a warning popup that if not cancelled will result in the logout. This would also take care of a number of other issues such as mining bots etc. Bots can mimic the appearance of activity. I fail to see how a 60 minute timer will change anything. Hell... even after YEARS of anti-botting software being pumped into all the MMOs out there all that has happened is that bots have become more sophisticated and game clients have become clunky and intrusive. Titania wrote: Who would this measure upset? The people that login for two minutes a month to set the training queue and those that use afk bots or exploits. It would "hurt" everyone who cannot spend more than an hour or two a night actually playing the damn game. Titania wrote: Who would benefit? The people who actually play the game. Anyone who doesn't follow (or have to follow) the cardinal rule of gaming, "real life comes first." "Just because I seem like an idiot, doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown
Smiling Menace Star Nebulae Holdings Inc. 144	Posted - 2012.02.27 23:23:00 - [22] - Quote For anyone late to this thread.... TL;DR Another stupid idea to change the skills that isn't broken and just about everyone hates.
Katie Frost Asgard. Exodus. 29	Posted - 2012.02.28 00:57:00 - [23] - Quote Titania wrote: One of the major faults with the current system is one that has been around the block on many forums since the game first launched; that of new players never being able to catch up with the veterans and this puts a lot of people off playing the game. Your (above) justification for brining in a different skill/levelling system is fundamentally flawed. The system you are proposing could be as easily used by any veteran pilot as well as a new-starter. Therefore, new players will still be behind veteran players in all the same respects as they are currently. Titania wrote: I see nothing wrong with rewarding people for the work they put in; if someone works twice as hard as me then they should have twice the reward. Wouldn't we all love it if we could sit at home all day watching TV and still collect our pay-cheques at the end of the month? and this is exactly what the current skill system allows you to do. Instead we have to go to work to get that pay and that is a good thing because if we all stayed home the world would grind to a halt. I am open to better ideas if anyone has any. I agree that increased activity in the game should bear merits... but it does already. The more I exercise PvP in EvE, the better I get at it, the more loot/ISK I collect and I learn more about the myriad of mechanics and tactics involved in PvP - making me better than someone who didn't bother logging in at all; The more I watch the market flow, the more profit I will make when I sell/buy at the right time as opposed to those that miss out because they are logged out; The more I shoot little red crosses and rocks in space the more ISK I will make by reaping the rewards and so on. Therefore, there are clear rewards for activelly playing EvE, and no, training skills is not one of them as it shouldn't be. You are playing the wrong game.
Mara Rinn Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium 985	Posted - 2012.02.28 03:25:00 - [24] - Quote Titania wrote: The example with the rifter was hilarious ( keep the noobs in crappy frigates they don't deserve to be as l33t as me ). Frigates are crappy? Have you actually flown one? Titania wrote: GÇª but how about doubling the speed at which skills train when you are logged in? This of course would still require the automatic logout feature to prevent it from being exploited. There you go again entirely avoiding discussion of the main issue I raised: how does training faster when you are logged in benefit a new player more than an old one? This foolish proposal will only aid bot users and people with no lives outside the game. Why are you attempting to frame your suggestion as a boon for new players, when it obviously is not? Have you considered how many people play the game for more hours than you do? Would you be suggesting this idea if you only had half the time to play the game that everyone else does?
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc 33	Posted - 2012.02.28 10:24:00 - [25] - Quote It takes literally 5 days to train your toon into a competent PVP pilot. Not supported. I support The Mittani for CSM 7 for the whole of EVE, including mining.
Blatant Forum Alt Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 9	Posted - 2012.02.28 13:57:00 - [26] - Quote Titania wrote: Generic terribad crap idea. Is this a troll, or are you actually mentally challenged? Or are you enslaved by a Korean WoW meat-grinder, trying to find new markets?
kaizee Capital Directive 1	Posted - 2012.02.28 15:54:00 - [27] - Quote so what happens if i go on a vacation and cant play eve. do i lose all my skillpoints for that period? and there is a way for new players to catch up. its called farm isk and buy a character. only change to skills i would like to see is being able to update skills from a smartphone app. you can already check your mail and stuff so idk why you cant update skills. say your at work and your skill que goes down thats lost points. but who am i to make suggestions.
Buzzy Warstl Huron Syndicate 22	Posted - 2012.02.28 16:22:00 - [28] - Quote kaizee wrote: so what happens if i go on a vacation and cant play eve. do i lose all my skillpoints for that period? and there is a way for new players to catch up. its called farm isk and buy a character. only change to skills i would like to see is being able to update skills from a smartphone app. you can already check your mail and stuff so idk why you cant update skills. say your at work and your skill que goes down thats lost points. but who am i to make suggestions. Your only choice right now is to queue up a L5 skill that will take longer to finish than your vacation (and there are plenty, though you might have to go "off plan"), or lose the points. It isn't fair or logical, but apparently that's the way folks like things around here.
Drake Draconis Nexus Advanced Technologies Fidelas Constans 350	Posted - 2012.02.28 18:00:00 - [29] - Quote kaizee wrote: so what happens if i go on a vacation and cant play eve. do i lose all my skillpoints for that period? and there is a way for new players to catch up. its called farm isk and buy a character. only change to skills i would like to see is being able to update skills from a smartphone app. you can already check your mail and stuff so idk why you cant update skills. say your at work and your skill que goes down thats lost points. but who am i to make suggestions. It's called planning ahead. Common sense yes? ================ FloppieTheBanjoClown for CSM 7!
Mara Rinn Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium 990	Posted - 2012.02.28 20:51:00 - [30] - Quote kaizee wrote: so what happens if i go on a vacation and cant play eve. do i lose all my skillpoints for that period? CCP has made some noises in the past about being able to update the skill queue through EVE Gate. I guess there's some internal discussion happening about whether it would encourage character farming bots or whether the utility to players is more important than any ability to "exploit" the web-based interface for personal gain.

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