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Morthis Rygal
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2008.04.14 12:39:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Anubis Xian
If Black Ops were able to lock onto and Jump straight to Stars, they would be vastly more worthwhile. As they are now, I think they at least need the cov ops cloak to at least be worth training. Give it a different bonus to replace the cloaked velocity bonus...like maybe 15% Jump and Jump Portal Cap and Fuel Need per level.
Being able to use a covops cloak is a ship bonus. It takes place of what could otherwise have been a different bonus, and isn't really specific to covops cloak (as the cpu reduction is for all cloaking modules), but pretty much only matters for covops.
It also seems like they're really trying to avoid to give any ship the ability to warp in cloaked and lock on right away. Atm there's a trend where ships can either lock right away after cloak, or warp while cloaked (ability to fit covops), but not both. |
kessah
Blood Corsair's
Blood Blind
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Posted - 2008.04.14 13:50:00 -
[32]
Might add a nice boost would be that Cyno jammers dont affect the Black Op's cyno generator.
Kinda lame now, since those jammers are bloody everywhere now. |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.04.14 13:55:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Dristra
So black ops are DUMB, like shooting yourself in the leg dumb, just make this black op industrial already, it would be a way better jumping platform
Yea, the black ops industrial; "made to move **** like a ninja!"
Best quote I've seen on these boards in awhile. |
Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.04.14 15:08:00 -
[34]
Originally by: TZeer
Go to this live dev blog Clicky
and fast foward to 36 min and 40 sec, info on black ops.
In a nutshell. It's mostly fine and used as intended, but it has too low fuel bay. However CCP does not want to make it covert hauler so they are looking into possibility of adding specific 'fuel only' cargo bay. They expect to boost it 'very soon'. |
TerrorBaBy
Caldari
Universal-Corp
The Nexus Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.14 17:21:00 -
[35]
Why don't they add a hidden bonus which reduces fuel volume to 1/10th size or something similar when placed withing Black Ops cargo holds. Explain it by saying that due to the volotile nature of the fuel and it's storage in proximity with specialist battleship class equipment, special fuel storage is needed in a separate area of the ship. These fuel tanks have a new type of compression technology being prototyped on them them which effectively makes the fuel inert until needed.
No separate cargo bay would be needed then and the volume of the fuel would simple be cut by a factor of 10 when put into Black Ops ships cargo holds.
I'm really dissapointed that they will not be recieving covops cloaks. This is something which has drawn me towards this class. I loved the covops recons for their 'assassination' abilities and was hoping the Black Ops would be able to fill the role of the BS equivalents. Ah well, adapt and play on  .
_______________
Originally by: CCP Navigator
Please keep to the topic at hand. Discussions of ****ography on youtube or anywhere else is not relevant.
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Rabid Rich
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Posted - 2008.04.14 17:27:00 -
[36]
copied from thread in other forum:
for the love of god let them be immune to t1 cloak scan res penalty if you(zulupark)ever want to see them used purposefully in combat....even if you then remove the current immunity to decloak penalty, the main thing is that these ships should be able to warp in(uncloaked ofc) and lock a target without having to completely gimp the mids with a rack of sensor boosters.
even with a jump fuel bay these ships remain glorified transport ships until they get to lock a bit faster.
we all need to make as much noise as possible about the gimped scan resolution on these ships so that it gets changed at the same time as they add the seperate fuel bay(soon). if it doesn't go in then, it might never, and that would be a tragedy for a "battle"ship, black ops or not, it needs a reasonable locktime!
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Cailais
Amarr
VITOC
Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2008.04.14 18:24:00 -
[37]
Basically the Black Ops Battleships are normal Battleships that can cyno a couple of recons into another system.
Is that ability worth a 3 to 5x price increase? Short answer - no.
If they had the capability to warp whilst cloaked? - Yes
If they had the ability to move more ships? - Possibly.
So CCP just need to adjust the ship: fit a cov ops II cloak and your fuel bay is restricted, dont fit a cov ops II cloak and you can move more recons.
C.
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Prohaska
Archon Industries
The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.04.14 18:43:00 -
[38]
I like the idea of being able to lock onto stars, though I could see that getting somewhat over used.
I have an idea to solve the cloaking issue, I do believe.
Give it a cloak like the Normandy from Mass Effect had. It didn't make it invisible to the eye, but made it invisible to scanners.
The ship will be locking onto and jumping to a safe spot, so being invisible isn't necessary. Have the same kind of thing where you have to "uncloak" to lock onto targets, and maybe with this type of cloak it could actually warp cloaked. |
Anubis Xian
Vertigo One
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Posted - 2008.04.14 19:07:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Prohaska
I like the idea of being able to lock onto stars, though I could see that getting somewhat over used.
I honestly think that is how all interstellar navigation should be handled. I've never liked the Stargate system and the Jump system is only a small step in the right direction.
I figure if a ship gains above average popularity, then that ship sets the bar for what all other ships lack.
Originally by: CCP Oveur
The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Juggernauts |
Prohaska
Archon Industries
The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.04.15 14:15:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Prohaska on 15/04/2008 14:15:30
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Originally by: Prohaska
I like the idea of being able to lock onto stars, though I could see that getting somewhat over used.
I honestly think that is how all interstellar navigation should be handled. I've never liked the Stargate system and the Jump system is only a small step in the right direction.
So there could potentially be no more gate camps? or maybe they'd just be called "star-camps"?
I think the gate system makes allot of sense because most ships smaller then a BS don't have the power to jump between systems. Now if larger ships like BS and above could do it, it would be interesting.
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Anubis Xian
Vertigo One
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Posted - 2008.04.15 15:47:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Prohaska
Edited by: Prohaska on 15/04/2008 14:15:30
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Originally by: Prohaska
I like the idea of being able to lock onto stars, though I could see that getting somewhat over used.
I honestly think that is how all interstellar navigation should be handled. I've never liked the Stargate system and the Jump system is only a small step in the right direction.
So there could potentially be no more gate camps? or maybe they'd just be called "star-camps"?
I think the gate system makes allot of sense because most ships smaller then a BS don't have the power to jump between systems. Now if larger ships like BS and above could do it, it would be interesting.
Well, my original Revamp Idea of the way Interstellar Travel worked in Eve had ships utilize a special fuel to Transwarp (100x their in system warp speed). They would lock onto a star and would route through various star systems on the way (much like how the current gate network works, except based on stars and their 'real' positions in the galaxy), they would then simply change systems while they were Transwarping between them, thus greatly improving load stability and making transition of players between nodes more fluid.
There would be a warp in grid that players could try to control, but ships arrive at random locations within that grid, so it would require effort to pull off.
My idea for star based Jump drives is essentially the same thing without changing the actual game 'rules'. It is just less of a solution and more of a compromise.
Originally by: CCP Oveur
The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Juggernauts |
Hydrogen
Art of War
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Posted - 2008.04.15 15:59:00 -
[42]
Black Ops are plain fail. Even when Zulu mentions "used as intended" it really needs a blind man to accept "fuel tank" as an appropriate solution.
Here is why - facts -
1. BO got a low scan resolution after cloak effect
2. Due to 1., BO got loooooong lock times
3. BO got less firepower than their T1 BS counterparts - resp. less efficiency on their main offensive strength
4. BO got a minor, let us call it "slight" to non existant tank increase compared to common BS tanks
5. BOs are based on the T1 tier 1 BSs
6. BOs got a jump ability, which is limited by range and fuel tank.
7a. BOs use of their portal ability is questionable: since the ships, which are able to use the portal (co, recon, sb, bo,..) are in general able to pass gate camps by themselves (covert ops, recon, stealth bomber,..). Suggested we are talking about smart pilots in an organized corporation/alliance environment, it is safe to assume that ppl able to organize for a BO jump are also able to pass gate camps.
7b. BOs use of their portal ability is questionable: since BOs could make sense if they were able to "bust" heavy gate camps, where cloaks offer the needed level of surprise. Since cloaked ships show in local and jump gate traffic is normally monitored in a camp, it becames obvious, what arrived and how it arrived. Thereby negating the level of surprise. Additonally - like mentioned before - it sounds adventorous to believe that a cloaker gang can make a difference compared to the same pilots in a proper fleet setting.
7c. BOs use of their portal ability is questionable: the firepower of a cloaked gang is unable to yield significant use in a battle. The same ships in T1 Tier 3 BSs would offer their fleet a more valuable asset.
7d. BOs use of their portal ability is questionable: basically if a covert ship passes a gate camp and enters enemy territory, it can also open a cyno field in an unpopulated solar system, thus bridging a full fleet by use of a Titan in. Any alliance able to take true strategic advantage of Black Ops does indeed posses a Titan. Why bridge lousy cloak ships in, when you can bring a fleet if its really needed?
8. BOs use of their portal ability is questionable: the developers apparently envisoned a completly unrealistic setting where BOs and their cloaked friends are "Guerillas" operating deep in enemy territory. This assumes a.) that there are enemy territories with a few single choke points (true) and b.) that those choke points are heavily camped 23/7 (excluded dt) and c.) that there are gate camps, which cant be passed for normal by cloaked ships. Such a typical BO setting plain does not exist in EvE. Someone who envisioned a ship for such a setting in EvE already failed when wakign up in the morning.
In prosa: a BO is a jack of all trades, not good in damage, not good in tank, not good in jumping, not good in cloaking, but able to create a "covert portal" whereas its use and strategic value is questionable to non-existant the least said.
Any Dev who claims that an additional fuel tank solves all those issues lacks 3rd party input and experience with BOs and should heavily refrain from messing around with somethign he does not understand: BO ability and stats.
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- click here - |
Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2008.04.15 17:13:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Hydrogen
Black Ops are plain fail. Even when Zulu mentions "used as intended" it really needs a blind man to accept "fuel tank" as an appropriate solution.
Here is why - facts -
1. BO got a low scan resolution after cloak effect
2. Due to 1., BO got loooooong lock times
3. BO got less firepower than their T1 BS counterparts - resp. less efficiency on their main offensive strength
4. BO got a minor, let us call it "slight" to non existant tank increase compared to common BS tanks
5. BOs are based on the T1 tier 1 BSs
6. BOs got a jump ability, which is limited by range and fuel tank.
7a. BOs use of their portal ability is questionable: since the ships, which are able to use the portal (co, recon, sb, bo,..) are in general able to pass gate camps by themselves (covert ops, recon, stealth bomber,..). Suggested we are talking about smart pilots in an organized corporation/alliance environment, it is safe to assume that ppl able to organize for a BO jump are also able to pass gate camps.
7b. BOs use of their portal ability is questionable: since BOs could make sense if they were able to "bust" heavy gate camps, where cloaks offer the needed level of surprise. Since cloaked ships show in local and jump gate traffic is normally monitored in a camp, it becames obvious, what arrived and how it arrived. Thereby negating the level of surprise. Additonally - like mentioned before - it sounds adventorous to believe that a cloaker gang can make a difference compared to the same pilots in a proper fleet setting.
7c. BOs use of their portal ability is questionable: the firepower of a cloaked gang is unable to yield significant use in a battle. The same ships in T1 Tier 3 BSs would offer their fleet a more valuable asset.
7d. BOs use of their portal ability is questionable: basically if a covert ship passes a gate camp and enters enemy territory, it can also open a cyno field in an unpopulated solar system, thus bridging a full fleet by use of a Titan in. Any alliance able to take true strategic advantage of Black Ops does indeed posses a Titan. Why bridge lousy cloak ships in, when you can bring a fleet if its really needed?
8. BOs use of their portal ability is questionable: the developers apparently envisoned a completly unrealistic setting where BOs and their cloaked friends are "Guerillas" operating deep in enemy territory. This assumes a.) that there are enemy territories with a few single choke points (true) and b.) that those choke points are heavily camped 23/7 (excluded dt) and c.) that there are gate camps, which cant be passed for normal by cloaked ships. Such a typical BO setting plain does not exist in EvE. Someone who envisioned a ship for such a setting in EvE already failed when wakign up in the morning.
In prosa: a BO is a jack of all trades, not good in damage, not good in tank, not good in jumping, not good in cloaking, but able to create a "covert portal" whereas its use and strategic value is questionable to non-existant the least said.
Any Dev who claims that an additional fuel tank solves all those issues lacks 3rd party input and experience with BOs and should heavily refrain from messing around with somethign he does not understand: BO ability and stats.
Bug reported essentially this post two weeks ago but with more detailed numbers and it was filtered.
Black ops are going to be hopeless for the better part of this year I bet.
___
Eve Players are not very smart.
Support Killmail Overhaul
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Zakgram
Atomic Heroes
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.16 07:01:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Erotic Irony
Black ops are going to be hopeless for the better part of this year I bet.
What about as a 0.0 ratter?
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.04.16 08:12:00 -
[45]
To be honest, main value I see in those ships is rapid pilot redeployment within friendly territory.
It can send decent sized regular cov ops gang thru it's portal and when pilots have arrived they can grab proper combat ship from POS in local or from carrier.
I do think however that it has too low jump range currently and also it's fuel capacity (in case of caldary one) outright sucks. Not too worried about it's combat capabilities as I would not use it for combat anyway. Just load up lows with expanders, mids with cap injectors + mwd and hi with cloak, cynos and perhaps smartbomb or 2 and hand it over to your well trained alt.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.04.16 08:17:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Zakgram
Originally by: Erotic Irony
Black ops are going to be hopeless for the better part of this year I bet.
What about as a 0.0 ratter?
What advantage do they have over a cloaked raven or domi?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Hydrogen
Art of War
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Posted - 2008.04.16 11:04:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Zakgram
Originally by: Erotic Irony
Black ops are going to be hopeless for the better part of this year I bet.
What about as a 0.0 ratter?
What advantage do they have over a cloaked raven or domi?
Additional attribute, liek in case of the redeemer you got a little less firepower, but eg. the tracking bonus.
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- click here - |
Darth Matt
Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium
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Posted - 2008.04.16 12:12:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Zakgram
Originally by: Erotic Irony
Black ops are going to be hopeless for the better part of this year I bet.
What about as a 0.0 ratter?
What advantage do they have over a cloaked raven or domi?
they have no advantage over any ship- I can operate better in my scorpion than in a widow with black ops 4- as well as it insures for alot more than the ship costs. It takes about a half hour to target a battlecruiser...its worthless.
and ofr hte guy who wants it for a cyno alt?? are you kidding? in now way is this ship good for a cyno alt- if you need a cyno alt- fit a force recon, if your throwing money at it...
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Zakgram
Atomic Heroes
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.16 12:24:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Malcanis
What advantage do they have over a cloaked raven or domi?
Ability to get into 0.0 without using a gate. [assuming a friendly covert]
Get through to whatever system without using a gate. [assuming a friendly covert]
Get out again?
Looking really cool outside the outpost/station with your buddies in.
Widow - more DPS than the Scorp.
And, for fun, stay cloaked in a belt near to 3 x 1m+ spawns waiting for a hostile ratter to warp in and engage... then bump, decloak, hurt.
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Car Wars
O.W.N. Corp
United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.16 13:40:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Zakgram
Originally by: Malcanis
What advantage do they have over a cloaked raven or domi?
Ability to get into 0.0 without using a gate. [assuming a friendly covert]
There is no 0.0 entry point system you can enter (jump over) from empire. All require you to do jumps beyond you jumprange. You are limited to jumping from some very limited low sec places to a 0.0 system where you do not want to be (will need to do 1-2 jumps extra to reach your destination). Thus you cannot effectively jump behind a camp to surprise them in one jump. Meaning that, (if you also want to do a return trip with your two uber pvp fitted cov ops friends), you do not have enough fuel to return.
Originally by: Zakgram
And, for fun, stay cloaked in a belt near to 3 x 1m+ spawns waiting for a hostile ratter to warp in and engage... then bump, decloak, hurt.
Thats wait till hell freezes over, wait untill an utterly stupid noOb comes along that starts ratting in a system with a red / neutral in it, wait for him to come to your belt, decloak, wait forever to get a lock, see nOob log out before reaching lock.....
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vanBuskirk
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.16 13:41:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Word
I invested in some Panther BPCs and I also hope that Black Ops gets fixed eventually. (look how long it took to make steal bombers acceptable.)
Currently, the jump tactics are poor. You're sneaking into a system by jumping past gate camps and warp disrupt bubbles, OK, oh, but wait, you're 100% dependent on someone being prepositioned in the system that you are covertly jumping into?
The Black Ops is "supposed" to be able to pick a point in a system with-in range, and then jump in without requiring any support.
How is this gang member supposed to get to the system you're trying to jump into? By busting through the gate camps you're planning to avoid?
Why does Black OPs have to jump to a prepositioned cyno? Makes no sense. Autonomous jump is more important than fitting a cov ops cloak IMO.
And that is NEVER going to happen. There are systems in EVE that CCP don't want you able to get to - Polaris and Jove systems, maybe others. Being able to send through one ship, and then you can send through a covops, and then send through a whole fleet, and then nobody can follow you without having a black ops pilot themselves, so you can mine and rat in 0.0 in perfect safety?
Ain't gonna happen - especially since anyone who was going to do that would set up a cyno jammer as their first job. In fact, they would probably set up a network of them, out to beyond maximum blackops jump range, so the first alliance to pull this stunt would have an entire region to themselves - forever.
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"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
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Anubis Xian
Vertigo One
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Posted - 2008.04.16 13:44:00 -
[52]
Originally by: vanBuskirk
Originally by: Word
I invested in some Panther BPCs and I also hope that Black Ops gets fixed eventually. (look how long it took to make steal bombers acceptable.)
Currently, the jump tactics are poor. You're sneaking into a system by jumping past gate camps and warp disrupt bubbles, OK, oh, but wait, you're 100% dependent on someone being prepositioned in the system that you are covertly jumping into?
The Black Ops is "supposed" to be able to pick a point in a system with-in range, and then jump in without requiring any support.
How is this gang member supposed to get to the system you're trying to jump into? By busting through the gate camps you're planning to avoid?
Why does Black OPs have to jump to a prepositioned cyno? Makes no sense. Autonomous jump is more important than fitting a cov ops cloak IMO.
And that is NEVER going to happen. There are systems in EVE that CCP don't want you able to get to - Polaris and Jove systems, maybe others. Being able to send through one ship, and then you can send through a covops, and then send through a whole fleet, and then nobody can follow you without having a black ops pilot themselves, so you can mine and rat in 0.0 in perfect safety?
Ain't gonna happen - especially since anyone who was going to do that would set up a cyno jammer as their first job. In fact, they would probably set up a network of them, out to beyond maximum blackops jump range, so the first alliance to pull this stunt would have an entire region to themselves - forever.
Okay, well hate to burst your epiphany bubble there, but I'm sure the Jovians have Cyno Jammers already.
Originally by: CCP Oveur
The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Juggernauts |
NeoNeTiC
Mortis Angelus
The Church.
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Posted - 2008.04.16 13:50:00 -
[53]
While most people agree that Black Ops in their current state are not worth an investment I advise to buy them now while there's no demand for them.
Once CCP unnerfs them (someone please dig out the statement that said they came pre-nerfed, I haven't trained forum-navigation 5 yet) they become useful/strong and prices will definitely increase.
So enjoy training skills and buying ships you can use in the future,
NeoNeTiC
[MORTS]-White Ops
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Juana Morlaine
MX3 Development
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.04.16 13:58:00 -
[54]
Originally by: NeoNeTiC
While most people agree that Black Ops in their current state are not worth an investment I advise to buy them now while there's no demand for them.
Once CCP unnerfs them (someone please dig out the statement that said they came pre-nerfed, I haven't trained forum-navigation 5 yet) they become useful/strong and prices will definitely increase.
So enjoy training skills and buying ships you can use in the future,
NeoNeTiC
[MORTS]-White Ops
Sorry to tell you that this is exactly the problem. Scroll up the thread and youll see the link to Zulu's live Dev chat. Within Zulu mentions the issues with Black Ops, making it obvious that they will unnerf BO by assigning an additional fuel tank (to avoid cloaked haulers).
An additional fuel tank on BOs does not solve the underlying BO design problem. Which is: the "jack-of-all-trades" design aka Guerilla warfare as such is a .. fail.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.04.17 07:37:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Car Wars
There is no 0.0 entry point system you can enter (jump over) from empire. All require you to do jumps beyond you jumprange. You are limited to jumping from some very limited low sec places to a 0.0 system where you do not want to be (will need to do 1-2 jumps extra to reach your destination). Thus you cannot effectively jump behind a camp to surprise them in one jump. Meaning that, (if you also want to do a return trip with your two uber pvp fitted cov ops friends), you do not have enough fuel to return.
That. Well ok you can reach 0.0 space from some odd low sec systems bypassing the usual gate camp location and ending up in few odd systems in the middle of region that happened to be withing jumprange of your ship (assuming that they are not cyno jammed). However that location is not the place you want to be usually so you will need to move your cyno alt (or in rare cases actual corpmate) around more until you can find next not cyno jammed jammed system within your jump range and jump there and so on until you reach your destination (or move the conventional way that is not too hard either if you have cov ops alt/corpmate as scout).
However, most 0.0 entities seem to be moving rapidly into conclusion that best way to defend their territory is to cyno jam every system they have as that means hostiles that want to move in will need to go and disable the cyno before they get to move in their capitals (ie. there is no point of jamming only station systems if you can bridge in your fleet to system next to it and then do the last jump the regular way or drop there pile of carriers supplying the pilots fighting in adjacent system with new ships).
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