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Menacing Presence	Posted - 2008.04.13 15:01:00 - [1] Did a search but all that came up was Black Ops recruitment threads . Wonder the search feature should be expanded to allow searches within specific forums rather than just the forums as a whole. If this feature exists please forgive my ignorance. So I've started training for these, looking at the caldari one and the amarr one. I like the idea of being able to jump a recon gang into a system. What are these ships like at the moment? I hear that they have been pre-nerfed? Think there are any plans to introduce covops cloak ability in the future?
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.04.13 15:18:00 - [2] No cov ops cloak is planned for them. In fact dev's have stated that this is not acceptable 'upgrade' for them as it would make them overpowered. As far as jumping recon gang into system goes - it will dissapoint you as they have too low cargo bay to carry enough fuel to move any reasonably sized gang over their relatively short max jump range (4.5 ly with max skills). You can do reasonably sized regular cov ops gang tho as jump portal fuel consumption is function of jumping ship mass. Jumping small gang of recons would most likely mean that you would need to fill your low slots with cargo expanders (and not using caldary one) as you will need pretty big fuel volumes to move anything bigger than frigates. There is some unspecified 'boost' planned for them in future. If I would need to speculate I would guess it has something to do with jumping stuff.
Darth Matt Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium	Posted - 2008.04.13 15:35:00 - [3] above poster is accurate- I have a rigged Widow I can sell you- In its current state it is a worthless piece of crap, and I feel a Scorpion is about 2000 times superior to it- mainly since the widows purpose and role is crap. with 2 cargo expander 2's I can jump bridge a whopping 2 recons...so then you can refuel, and send 2 more, refuel send 2 more..and then you need to jump to the cyno yourself- which means your covert cyno pilot gets to keep opening cynos since they only last about 30 seconds from a pilgrim. Fortunately it costs them almost nothing to fire one up. Now your in deep space- too bad your fuels almost gone- time to slowboat it back, nothing like flying 700 million in uninsured ship and mods through 0.0...guess whom is primary? In the current state- the Black Ops are worthless and without purpose- the t1 versions are a million times better and insure for more than you pay for them. Like I said- I'll sell you a master fitted rigged Widow- I'd rather fit a chimera that insures for 100% of its value and pvp in it- higher likelyhood of survival and can carry enough fuel for the day. Nice job CCP- didnt test this one too much did ya? And the singularity version works differently, so dont even think that its the same on tranquility. Yes, Im ticked off- was very excited about taking 10 or 11 of my guys in force recons on a nice ninja op, to discover that its like a normal op- just that im flying a ship that is overpriced and less effective than a scorpion...woo hoo...I'll just take a force recon next time-
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Vae Victis.	Posted - 2008.04.13 15:48:00 - [4] ANGER STRIKE: A battleship can do the following things: Gank and tank like nothing else with the same price tag Join fleet battles, as they are expendable Run missions with their tank and gank power And that is about it, problem a cov ops bs is sub-pair to a normal battleship in all these roles, only thing it does better is jump **, not really a great ability, and something ANOTHER DEDICATED SHIP COULD DO! Omg I fit lasers, gank and a cloak on my arma and omg itÆs a cloaked fire support ship for a recon gang! And it is EXPENDABLE! I could even NANO it for survivability! Hell if it dies, what have i lost? Let me tell you; close to nothing! So black ops are DUMB, like shooting yourself in the leg dumb, just make this black op industrial already, it would be a way better jumping platform Yea, the black ops industrial; "made to move ** like a ninja!" Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions! I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
Mr Ignitious Gallente R.E.C.O.N. The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.04.13 16:58:00 - [5] also with that cloak fitted their targetting time is absolutely horrendous. i think that should be changed as well, HUGE hinderance imo.
Darth Matt Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium	Posted - 2008.04.13 17:01:00 - [6] Originally by: Mr Ignitious also with that cloak fitted their targetting time is absolutely horrendous. i think that should be changed as well, HUGE hinderance imo. I fitted a caldari navy cloak to minimize the pain, but it is Horrible- I concur- they gave it a "no targeting delay after decloaking bonus, but it takes a half hour to target a titan, so whats the point of the special ability"
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.04.13 17:46:00 - [7] Originally by: Darth Matt Now your in deep space- too bad your fuels almost gone- time to slowboat it back, nothing like flying 700 million in uninsured ship and mods through 0.0...guess whom is primary? I agree to your statements mostly but would like to point out that ships you are sending thru have cargo holds. They should carry enough fuel for back trip for themselves and your ship if navigating thru regular gates does not sound like a good idea. My main disappointment with them is their crap jump range. 4.5 ly is very short jump barely enough to bypass some chokepoint system but not enough to deploy your gang deep into enemy territory. At best cases it's approx 10 jumps thru regular stargates. Their combat abilities are indeed not too stellar but tbh, I think they have their limited uses. Mostly for rapid pilot deployment between empire and 0.0 space and in the hands of well trained alt (or deploying your gang into hostile territory and remaining cloaked while your main char is having fun flying around in recon). Training for cov ops frigate is not too hard for most pilots, then you deploy covert cyno capable alts at approx 4.5 ly intervals and you can move your pilots rapidly around at that route. If you nano up your cov ops frigates you can move fair amount of them around. Then again it's not to big problem moving them around thru regular gates in cov ops either unless there is particularly well organized gate camp between you and your destination.
Darth Matt Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium	Posted - 2008.04.13 18:24:00 - [8] one problem with what your saying is that in order for my ship to have any minimal use I have to have the ships im jumping in to load their cargo with fuel- Which we tried...now the pilgrim pilots said- umm...since the pilgrim/curse nerf- we need our whole bays for cap booster charges...sorry. and a typical recon cant carry 2200 nitrogen isotopes on top of ammo and anything we pick up on the way- imagine if we actually take out a few ships and they drop something?? I dont disagree with what your saying, and I will train an alt someday for covert cynos' thats a level 5 skill, nice long one for an alt- oh well, but a necessary evil- rumor is they may fix the ship, but overall im so disappointed, im going to sell mine so I am not reminded of how bad of a job they did.
Noelle Fay RIMTECH NOVA GOTISCHES IMPERIUM	Posted - 2008.04.13 18:46:00 - [9] Edited by: Noelle Fay on 13/04/2008 18:46:38 Can you black ops experts verify that my statement is true? I say: -A black ops can 1. create a hidden cyno field for incoming capitals and the likes and 2. it can create a jump portal aimed at another system within the ly range and the black ops and it's covert friends can use it to jump through, like a bridge. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- The secret to success, whether it's women or money, is knowing when to quit. I oughta know: I'm divorced and broke.
kessah Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.04.13 19:05:00 - [10] i think people need to look at the future of these ships. Trust me on this, CCP are definetly going to boost them. I do suggest you hold to your precious ships for awhile longer because once they get boosted, people will want them, prices will boom. Im investing into Black Op's level 5 because i know that they will be given attention, its a gamble and i hope they are given the right boost, but honestly, hold your breathe alittle longer...
Vmir Gallahasen Gallente Omniscient Order	Posted - 2008.04.13 20:25:00 - [11] Originally by: Noelle Fay Edited by: Noelle Fay on 13/04/2008 18:46:38 Can you black ops experts verify that my statement is true? -A black ops can 1. create a hidden cyno field for incoming capitals and the likes and 2. it can create a jump portal aimed at another system within the ly range and the black ops and it's covert friends can use it to jump through, like a bridge. 1. False, capitals cannot use a covert field. Black Ops can, however, use a non-covert field both for the bridge and for normal jump drive. However, the two fields are both susceptible to online Cynosural System Jammers. 2. Half correct. The portal can be made to a system within the Black Ops' jump radius, but the Black Ops itself can't use its own portal. It has its own jump drive instead, so you could fly it around like a jump capable bs even without the portal generator module fitted.
TerrorBaBy Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.04.13 22:32:00 - [12] I'm really dissapointed now. Might just scrap training for it and train something else. What's the point if they can't use covops cloaks? What's the point of using the other cloaks? You just sit cloaked at a gate and then uncloak, wait 30 seconds for targetting and then try to attack? What's the big deal that they can move as fast whilst cloaked? They're BS, they move slowly anyway.
TimMc Gallente Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.04.13 22:47:00 - [13] Originally by: kessah Im investing into Black Op's level 5 because i know that they will be given attention, its a gamble and i hope they are given the right boost, but honestly, hold your breathe alittle longer... Great balls of fire, why? Do you really have nothing better to train? I think training Jury Rigging 5 is almost as useful.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.04.13 22:54:00 - [14] Originally by: TimMc Originally by: kessah Im investing into Black Op's level 5 because i know that they will be given attention, its a gamble and i hope they are given the right boost, but honestly, hold your breathe alittle longer... Great balls of fire, why? Do you really have nothing better to train? I think training Jury Rigging 5 is almost as useful. He explained why: he's betting on a change to the class.
Word	Posted - 2008.04.14 02:30:00 - [15] I invested in some Panther BPCs and I also hope that Black Ops gets fixed eventually. (look how long it took to make steal bombers acceptable.) Currently, the jump tactics are poor. You're sneaking into a system by jumping past gate camps and warp disrupt bubbles, OK, oh, but wait, you're 100% dependent on someone being prepositioned in the system that you are covertly jumping into? The Black Ops is "supposed" to be able to pick a point in a system with-in range, and then jump in without requiring any support. How is this gang member supposed to get to the system you're trying to jump into? By busting through the gate camps you're planning to avoid? Why does Black OPs have to jump to a prepositioned cyno? Makes no sense. Autonomous jump is more important than fitting a cov ops cloak IMO.
Noelle Fay RIMTECH NOVA GOTISCHES IMPERIUM	Posted - 2008.04.14 03:28:00 - [16] Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen It has its own jump drive instead, so you could fly it around like a jump capable bs even without the portal generator module fitted. So that means a black ops ship, which is on his own, can jump to another system on his own without the need of an available cynofield created by a friend in the destination system? To make it even clearer.. If I'm all alone and I'm in a blackops, can I jump to other systems without using the gates? Only me. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- The secret to success, whether it's women or money, is knowing when to quit. I oughta know: I'm divorced and broke.
Vladimir Vaun Enosis	Posted - 2008.04.14 04:48:00 - [17] Originally by: Noelle Fay Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen It has its own jump drive instead, so you could fly it around like a jump capable bs even without the portal generator module fitted. So that means a black ops ship, which is on his own, can jump to another system on his own without the need of an available cynofield created by a friend in the destination system? To make it even clearer.. If I'm all alone and I'm in a blackops, can I jump to other systems without using the gates? Only me. No
Vmir Gallahasen Gallente Omniscient Order	Posted - 2008.04.14 05:03:00 - [18] Originally by: Noelle Fay Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen It has its own jump drive instead, so you could fly it around like a jump capable bs even without the portal generator module fitted. So that means a black ops ship, which is on his own, can jump to another system on his own without the need of an available cynofield created by a friend in the destination system? To make it even clearer.. If I'm all alone and I'm in a blackops, can I jump to other systems without using the gates? Only me. No, it's just a regular jump drive bound by the usual restrictions and limitations. You always need a second person on the receiving end to create a beacon for you. What I meant was that even if you didn't fit the jump portal generator module on your ship, you could still use its personal jump drive.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.04.14 05:31:00 - [19] Originally by: Darth Matt one problem with what your saying is that in order for my ship to have any minimal use I have to have the ships im jumping in to load their cargo with fuel- Which we tried...now the pilgrim pilots said- umm...since the pilgrim/curse nerf- we need our whole bays for cap booster charges...sorry. and a typical recon cant carry 2200 nitrogen isotopes on top of ammo and anything we pick up on the way- imagine if we actually take out a few ships and they drop something?? I dont disagree with what your saying, and I will train an alt someday for covert cynos' thats a level 5 skill, nice long one for an alt- oh well, but a necessary evil- rumor is they may fix the ship, but overall im so disappointed, im going to sell mine so I am not reminded of how bad of a job they did. You are ofc correct. Main point in addition to the fact that most recons will need that cargo bay for useful stuff (like cap charges) is that Widow sucks as far as jumping goes bcos it has crap cargohold. With full cargo expander II's in lows (no cargo optimization rigs, although those might be sensible for black ops ship) one will get Sin - 2578 m3 Redeemer - 3286 m3 Panther - 2685 m3 Widow - 1453 m3 fill the mids with heavy cap injectors (you need 95% - 75 % cap to jump) and mwd (to lower max capacitor and to have reasonable speed should you need to run), dump cloak and cyno gen in hi slots and whatever else you feel like squeezing in and you have 'mini titan' for moving stuff. Only thing it's 'good' for is jumping pilots (stuff is better moved in carriers) around. For anything else there is better tools available that are both cheaper and more effective at whatever you are trying to do.
Anubis Xian Vertigo One	Posted - 2008.04.14 05:43:00 - [20] If Black Ops were able to lock onto and Jump straight to Stars, they would be vastly more worthwhile. As they are now, I think they at least need the cov ops cloak to at least be worth training. Give it a different bonus to replace the cloaked velocity bonus...like maybe 15% Jump and Jump Portal Cap and Fuel Need per level. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. Juggernauts
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.04.14 06:29:00 - [21] Originally by: Anubis Xian If Black Ops were able to lock onto and Jump straight to Stars, they would be vastly more worthwhile. As they are now, I think they at least need the cov ops cloak to at least be worth training. Give it a different bonus to replace the cloaked velocity bonus...like maybe 15% Jump and Jump Portal Cap and Fuel Need per level. Cov ops cloak on black op ship would make it a bit too powerful. However longer jump range or smaller fuel consumption or 'special' hard to fit jumpdrive in the form of fitted module that can jump without cyno in destination are all within reasonable limits. Will have just to sit and wait to see how it's going to be boosted to justify the investment as currently you are better off in cloaked carrier than in black ops ship if you are willing to shell out that amount of isk and want to have jumpdrive.
kessah Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.04.14 08:09:00 - [22] Originally by: TimMc Originally by: kessah Im investing into Black Op's level 5 because i know that they will be given attention, its a gamble and i hope they are given the right boost, but honestly, hold your breathe alittle longer... Great balls of fire, why? Do you really have nothing better to train? I think training Jury Rigging 5 is almost as useful. Even as they are in there current state, 20% bonus to ECM jam strength for the Widow is reason enough.
Ortos Abyssus Incendia THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.14 08:19:00 - [23] Locking on to stars would IMO be the perfect addition to these ships. Nothing else about the mathers then, theyre the ultimate harassment platform. Probably would get overused, but wouldnt say overpowered.
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2008.04.14 08:34:00 - [24] Ditching the scan res penility for the cloak would be a start. Re-working the jumpbridge so it could jump a small cruiser/frig gang into, or out of, hostile space would be another.
Vardemis Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.04.14 09:13:00 - [25] Black Ops are quite versatile and they offer a lot of multiple options, you will have to think outside the box though to make them work properly. I agree they could do with a bit of a boost in regards to fuel consumption when bridging recons and one should be able to deploy the covert cyno anywhere, including cynojammed systems.
Wardeneo Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.14 09:57:00 - [26] dont get a black ops, get a marauder, better at pve and good for pvp, as many ppl have shown on sisi, they rock! its a shame i ant fly em/nor do i have the isk for em :( wardeneo If brute force doesn't work..... your not using enough :)
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.04.14 10:14:00 - [27] Originally by: Wardeneo dont get a black ops, get a marauder, better at pve and good for pvp, as many ppl have shown on sisi, they rock! its a shame i ant fly em/nor do i have the isk for em :( Basically this is the long and short version of this discussion, black ops are even worse than stealth bombers, I never thought such a thing was possible but there it is. A marauder involves dramatically less skill training and perhaps less in build cost, at least on the surface it doesn't require the capital comps, is a lot of fun and exceeds standard battleship functionality even with ECCM. A black ops on the other hand has worse or stats equal to its tech one cousin, it doesn't even have more cap than the tech one ffs. I predict its a ship that will continue the legacy of the stealth bomber, hit by patch after patch of fixes and fitting boosts and to this day is still worthless. TL;DR avoid black ops at all costs, there is no logical reason at all to train BO5 in anticipation of when they will be effective because that likelihood is about as real as winning the lottery. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Jason Edwards	Posted - 2008.04.14 11:21:00 - [28] i dont think cov-op cloak should be on black-ops. that certainly would be insane... stealth bombers should be able to fit cov-op cloak. jump bridge to star. mmm that's a pretty decent idea I think. I think the thing that should give black-ops the edge is a dynamic signature radius. Up close a black ops battleship should have a signature radius of normal size... but if you are 100km away... the signature radius should be tiny as hell. Take the real life stealth bombers... the B2 up close to a radar station or near an awacs will be picked up. However far enough away and the stealth bombers look like pigeons on radar. Now I suggest a black ops cloaking device which supplements a cloaking device and can be used on its own. It doesn't cloak but rather actively reduces the signature radius significantly to sizes of much smaller then even interceptors. However it deactivates and takes time to recalibrate if anything comes to within 10km of the ship. So blobbing with these will be quite difficult. Ships will eventually lock on.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.04.14 11:23:00 - [29] Originally by: Jason Edwards Now I suggest a black ops cloaking device which supplements a cloaking device and can be used on its own. It doesn't cloak but rather actively reduces the signature radius significantly to sizes of much smaller then even interceptors. However it deactivates and takes time to recalibrate if anything comes to within 10km of the ship. So blobbing with these will be quite difficult. Ships will eventually lock on. The gang mod version of this already exists, I doubt it's very popular given the resistance and velocity mods and how trivial sig radius bonuses are in ships larger than frigates. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
TZeer BURN EDEN	Posted - 2008.04.14 12:19:00 - [30] Go to this live dev blog Clicky and fast foward to 36 min and 40 sec, info on black ops.

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