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Nightmare - is it still gimped for PvE? (was it ever?)

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Durzel Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.14 09:14:00 - [1] Edited by: Durzel on 14/04/2008 09:14:51 I love the look of the Nightmare, and I like the idea of lasers simply because imo it seems more traditionally sci-fi. I'm currently flying a CNR that I've only been in for a few weeks and whilst it gets the job done admirably I've decided I'm not really a big fan of missiles, and it seems to be a bit of a dead end in terms of skill training (some basic research tends to suggest that people shun missiles in PvP due to the time it takes to reach target, nanofags, etc - though this perception could of course be wrong). It's also somewhat depressing to see several missiles get shot down by defenders over and over again. At the moment I have very low gunnery skills and my Amarr & energy weapons skills are non-existant. I have very good Engineering skills (all 4s and 5s) so cap shouldn't be a problem. A cursory look at Evemon shows that it would take ~10 days to fly a Tachy Nightmare, though I would obviously need all the energy-weap & gunnery support skills afterwards. Is the Nightmare worth the switch? I would be intending to use it exclusively in L4 missions at least for the forseeable future.
Riho Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.04.14 09:19:00 - [2] gimped ? lol strong shield tank + 1000 dps whit guns... wouldnt say gimped tbh :P ---------------------------------- Yes... this is my main. Extreme Troll Slayer...
Durzel Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.14 09:25:00 - [3] Only does thermal (and EM?) damage though, doesn't it? I've seen it mentioed that vs Angels, etc it's worse than a T1 Raven DPS wise. Again, only repeating what I have seen in a couple of other threads, hence why I wanted confirmation
Riho Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.04.14 09:32:00 - [4] if you do missions for amarr then you will not have that issue tbh :P ---------------------------------- Yes... this is my main. Extreme Troll Slayer...
zayanka	Posted - 2008.04.14 09:37:00 - [5] Originally by: Durzel Edited by: Durzel on 14/04/2008 09:14:51 I love the look of the Nightmare, and I like the idea of lasers simply because imo it seems more traditionally sci-fi. I'm currently flying a CNR that I've only been in for a few weeks and whilst it gets the job done admirably I've decided I'm not really a big fan of missiles, and it seems to be a bit of a dead end in terms of skill training (some basic research tends to suggest that people shun missiles in PvP due to the time it takes to reach target, nanofags, etc - though this perception could of course be wrong). It's also somewhat depressing to see several missiles get shot down by defenders over and over again. At the moment I have very low gunnery skills and my Amarr & energy weapons skills are non-existant. I have very good Engineering skills (all 4s and 5s) so cap shouldn't be a problem. A cursory look at Evemon shows that it would take ~10 days to fly a Tachy Nightmare, though I would obviously need all the energy-weap & gunnery support skills afterwards. Is the Nightmare worth the switch? I would be intending to use it exclusively in L4 missions at least for the forseeable future. If you think that you dont need skills to fly raven, maybe thats true. With Nightmare it is absolutely differnt, u need several mils SP in gunnery to fly that ship well. IF you dont have Gunnery skills to lvl5, I would not advise you to use Nightmare. Because if you will with 10 days training in gunnery, you will spam those forums for another 10 days screaming what a useless ship nightmare is. And this isnt true. Also it cost a fortune to fit nighmare well, apart from must have gist xl booster I would recommend officer cap rechargers, so you can run your tank non stop. But when you have the skills and Isks it is one of the Best gun based ships in eve. Just dont use it against angels
Durzel Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.14 09:46:00 - [6] Edited by: Durzel on 14/04/2008 09:46:10 Thanks for the info. I guess then I should spend a good couple of months or more getting my gunnery up to spec before I think about sitting in one.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.14 10:35:00 - [7] Don't listen to the lvl5 fanatics. Theyre totally removed from reality in their elitism. The only gunnery skills you really need at level 5 for good performance are those that are a preq for large energy turret (which I think is only gunnery 5?). All others work fine at 4. I have 35 mil SP, about 8 mil of that in gunnery I think, and the only gunnery skills affecting lasers I have at 5 are gunnery, rapid firing and motion prediction. And those were only trained because they were reasonably fast skills, not because they are a huge benefit. I find having all three large gun types at 4 much more useful than having one at 5. And my Nightmare works perfectly fine. Sure, eventually you want T2 lasers if you cannot afford faction/Officer, but they are by no means mandatory. And support skills work fine at 4 as well. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Msobe	Posted - 2008.04.14 11:31:00 - [8] Listen to the level 5 fanatics. They aren't a bit removed from reality in their elitism. The nightmare has the potential to be an amazing ship. Its not at all impressive if you fit it with an average fit and mediocre skills. No matter what anyone says, many lvl 5 gunnery skills are required - and many of them are relatively quick trains. (Individually.) Just for t2 large guns. you'll need to max out each turret size, and a few support skills. (Range and tracking.) You'll also need controlled bursts at 5, along with rapid firing. Pretty well the only laser related skill that you don't need to max out is fall off - and once you have the rest done, its worth the train, just not as important as the rest. People pay hundreds of millions for mods that let them squeeze out an extra 5% damage. That's an absolute waste if you haven't spent a week or two training the skills that give the exact same benefit. If you'd rather not make the effort (and its a LOT of effort), the Nightmare really isn't worth the money for you.
DHG Precision Engineering Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.14 11:47:00 - [9] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Don't listen to the lvl5 fanatics. Theyre totally removed from reality in their elitism. The only gunnery skills you really need at level 5 for good performance are those that are a preq for large energy turret (which I think is only gunnery 5?). All others work fine at 4. I have 35 mil SP, about 8 mil of that in gunnery I think, and the only gunnery skills affecting lasers I have at 5 are gunnery, rapid firing and motion prediction. And those were only trained because they were reasonably fast skills, not because they are a huge benefit. I find having all three large gun types at 4 much more useful than having one at 5. And my Nightmare works perfectly fine. Sure, eventually you want T2 lasers if you cannot afford faction/Officer, but they are by no means mandatory. And support skills work fine at 4 as well. Ever heard of t2 guns and t2 ammo? T2 heavy pulses and scorch gives you an optimal of about 45km, good tracking and very decent dps. You know, it's almost like a raven, you can sit there, not really have to worry much about tracking and optimal while you slaughter rats at an incredible fast rate (provided they're sansha/blood/drones). T2 guns >>> t1 guns because of the long range ammo.
Morthis Rygal Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2008.04.14 12:18:00 - [10] Originally by: zayanka Originally by: Durzel Edited by: Durzel on 14/04/2008 09:14:51 I love the look of the Nightmare, and I like the idea of lasers simply because imo it seems more traditionally sci-fi. I'm currently flying a CNR that I've only been in for a few weeks and whilst it gets the job done admirably I've decided I'm not really a big fan of missiles, and it seems to be a bit of a dead end in terms of skill training (some basic research tends to suggest that people shun missiles in PvP due to the time it takes to reach target, nanofags, etc - though this perception could of course be wrong). It's also somewhat depressing to see several missiles get shot down by defenders over and over again. At the moment I have very low gunnery skills and my Amarr & energy weapons skills are non-existant. I have very good Engineering skills (all 4s and 5s) so cap shouldn't be a problem. A cursory look at Evemon shows that it would take ~10 days to fly a Tachy Nightmare, though I would obviously need all the energy-weap & gunnery support skills afterwards. Is the Nightmare worth the switch? I would be intending to use it exclusively in L4 missions at least for the forseeable future. If you think that you dont need skills to fly raven, maybe thats true. With Nightmare it is absolutely differnt, u need several mils SP in gunnery to fly that ship well. IF you dont have Gunnery skills to lvl5, I would not advise you to use Nightmare. Because if you will with 10 days training in gunnery, you will spam those forums for another 10 days screaming what a useless ship nightmare is. And this isnt true. Also it cost a fortune to fit nighmare well, apart from must have gist xl booster I would recommend officer cap rechargers, so you can run your tank non stop. But when you have the skills and Isks it is one of the Best gun based ships in eve. Just dont use it against angels There's not a level 4 mission in this game that requires you to be able to perma run an XL shield booster if you have 4 hardeners. Most missions don't even require you to boost more than like twice total (from 30% to 70%'ish). Granted perma running a gist isn't that hard, but if you start fitting gist and officer mods, you're becoming a very juicy suicide target.
Polinus Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.04.14 13:06:00 - [11] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Don't listen to the lvl5 fanatics. They are totally removed from reality in their elitism. The only gunnery skills you really need at level 5 for good performance are those that are a preq for large energy turret (which I think is only gunnery 5?). All others work fine at 4. I have 35 mil SP, about 8 mil of that in gunnery I think, and the only gunnery skills affecting lasers I have at 5 are gunnery, rapid firing and motion prediction. And those were only trained because they were reasonably fast skills, not because they are a huge benefit. I find having all three large gun types at 4 much more useful than having one at 5. And my Nightmare works perfectly fine. Sure, eventually you want T2 lasers if you cannot afford faction/Officer, but they are by no means mandatory. And support skills work fine at 4 as well. Then you will be at incredibly sub par performance. You are in no position to tell if level 5 skills are worth if you don posses them. T2 guns, specially with t2 ammo are a completely different ball game. Yes t2 ammo. Scorch on missions is a must if you want to have high isk/hour ratio. Being able to track cruisers close by and same time deal 800-900 dps at 50 km is VERY important. My amarr char has only 12M SP but I am pretty sure it can beat timewise your 35 M one running L4 against Sansha or BRaiders exaclty because it has T2 guns.
Mr Reeth Aegis Militia	Posted - 2008.04.14 13:36:00 - [12] I can fit tech 2 pulses on my Paladin. But I choose not to. I fit faction tachs! And IÆm damn happy with the results. And if I were going from zero gunnery to Nightmare I would not train small or medium to 5 and go the tech 2 route. I would go straight to large energy 4 and all the support skills to 4. Only then would I set foot in the nightmare while I work up the essential gunnery skills to 5. And yes lasers suck against anything but Sanshas, Blooders, and drones. People keep saying you donÆt have to do anything but those missions but that excludes a lot of good missions, AE, WC and EA, just to name a few. Maybe you should forget about the Nightmare and go for the Golem or the Rattlesnake. Hell, if I could reset my skills IÆd be flying a Rattler.
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2008.04.14 14:41:00 - [13] LOL @ t1 Raven being better at anything. Do Angels not use defender missiles or something? ITT: people trying to drive Nightmare prices down because they want one. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Durzel Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.14 15:04:00 - [14] I thought about Golem but it seemed like you had to go overboard with torp-range extending rigs & implants and still have to use T2 Javelins (lower damage) just to get them out to an acceptable range. Also, I have a seperate dedicated salvage ship with 4 tractors/4 salvagers so whilst the 100% range/speed tractor bonus & big cargo hold is interesting, it would probably be useless for my own personal circumstances. Rattler is nice but it's a matter of interpretation as to whether it's better or just more of the same when compared to a CNR.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.14 15:41:00 - [15] Originally by: Polinus Then you will be at incredibly sub par performance. You are in no position to tell if level 5 skills are worth if you don posses them. T2 guns, specially with t2 ammo are a completely different ball game. Yes t2 ammo. Scorch on missions is a must if you want to have high isk/hour ratio. Being able to track cruisers close by and same time deal 800-900 dps at 50 km is VERY important. My amarr char has only 12M SP but I am pretty sure it can beat timewise your 35 M one running L4 against Sansha or BRaiders exaclty because it has T2 guns. While T2 megapulse with scorch is nice, especially on a Nightmare it is nowhere near mandatory since you can use Megabeams/Tachys with little to no problems. Actually a faction Tach even with Navy Gamma outdpses Megapulse with Scorch. The ship is simply beautiful, even without T2. And I am fairly confident that your T2 'mare won't beat my officer one. :P Maybe it is all about ones ability to earn (and keep) money. I find it vastly perferable to pay some isk which I can easily get for that extra 5% damage, instead of wasting 30 days of skill training on it which could get me 20% better in two or three other areas. Of course by now I am running out of other things to train and actually working on T2 large guns. But up to that point, imho training them is relatively wasteful unless you are into fleet battles. Oh and of course if you are one of those guys that is content being able to fly only one races' ships, it is something different as well since you don't have other things to train. I prefer flying EVERY races ships at 4-5ish skill level over being able to fly one race at 5 though.
Polinus Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.04.14 16:55:00 - [16] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: Polinus Then you will be at incredibly sub par performance. You are in no position to tell if level 5 skills are worth if you don posses them. T2 guns, specially with t2 ammo are a completely different ball game. Yes t2 ammo. Scorch on missions is a must if you want to have high isk/hour ratio. Being able to track cruisers close by and same time deal 800-900 dps at 50 km is VERY important. My amarr char has only 12M SP but I am pretty sure it can beat timewise your 35 M one running L4 against Sansha or BRaiders exaclty because it has T2 guns. While T2 megapulse with scorch is nice, especially on a Nightmare it is nowhere near mandatory since you can use Megabeams/Tachys with little to no problems. Actually a faction Tach even with Navy Gamma outdpses Megapulse with Scorch. The ship is simply beautiful, even without T2. And I am fairly confident that your T2 'mare won't beat my officer one. :P Maybe it is all about ones ability to earn (and keep) money. I find it vastly perferable to pay some isk which I can easily get for that extra 5% damage, instead of wasting 30 days of skill training on it which could get me 20% better in two or three other areas. Of course by now I am running out of other things to train and actually working on T2 large guns. But up to that point, imho training them is relatively wasteful unless you are into fleet battles. Oh and of course if you are one of those guys that is content being able to fly only one races' ships, it is something different as well since you don't have other things to train. I prefer flying EVERY races ships at 4-5ish skill level over being able to fly one race at 5 though. But with tachyons you cannot tank well due to PG usage. Then several missions become more complicated than they should be, Also the lower cap usage makes life MUCH easier specially when fighting Blood raiders.
Fon Revedhort Aeria Gloris Inc United Legion	Posted - 2008.04.14 18:16:00 - [17] Originally by: Polinus But with tachyons you cannot tank well due to PG usage. Then several missions become more complicated than they should be, Also the lower cap usage makes life MUCH easier specially when fighting Blood raiders. Bah. My Nightmare has a full rack of tech2 Tachs, AB and Heavy Cap Booster along with that XL SB, what else would you want to have? Well, 2x heavy nos maybe, but that's already a lot more easier to fit than anything I've ever flown And no, I don't have any PDS or other crap there ---
Helen coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.14 18:39:00 - [18] Originally by: Polinus But with tachyons you cannot tank well due to PG usage. Then several missions become more complicated than they should be, Also the lower cap usage makes life MUCH easier specially when fighting Blood raiders. do u fly a nightmare? quite obviously u don't its got no pg issues. stop trolling leandro he knows more than u do.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2008.04.14 19:56:00 - [19] Helen speaks the truth, Leandro is quite the go-to guy when it comes to mission fittings :D I started out using the Nightmare when i switched from the lagtastic Caldari hubs to the more reasonable Amarr/Khanid regions. Went from CNR to Nightmare after training rudimentary skills, just enough to use Navy Tachyons and almost halved my avg. mission time. Most important skill for me became Targeting since the 4 targets I could lock vanished so damn quickly and I was used to locking next target while missiles were in air. It has more Grid and CPU than you will ever need. Tanks harder than the CNR. Finishes missions faster (except against Gurista/Angles), and Tracking bonus makes beams superior to pulses and can one-volley Blood/Sansha cruisers and battlecruisers with Tachyons.
queen1121 Empire Dreams	Posted - 2008.04.14 21:07:00 - [20] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Tanks harder than the CNR. Oh really? Stop deluding yourself, it's nice ship but not THAT nice. 20+cap/s drain from guns doesn't really help it's tank.
Red Harvest	Posted - 2008.04.15 02:19:00 - [21] tbh the CNR tanks a tiny bit better but thats only because of the 2.6k more base shield HPs and the fact that you can use 100% of the CNRs cap for the tanking. Im happily using the same gist xl booster + 3x DG invuls + crystal set i had on my CNR (no SBA though) on my Nightmare and never had any problems with my tank running lvl4s.
Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.04.15 04:22:00 - [22] If by "gimped" you mean best pve boat in game, then yeah sure. CNR tank, 1100 dps w/ drones. Do the math.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.04.15 04:48:00 - [23] Insane people ITT You don't need lvl 5 skills for this thing to work. While it certainly is good to have them, they are NOT a necessity. As far as cap and tanking goes, I run an Abaddon with 8 tach IIs and 3 heat sinks. Believe you me, if you don't completely suck at this game, it's not that hard to manage a shield tank plus 4 tachs.
Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.04.15 06:58:00 - [24] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Insane people ITT You don't need lvl 5 skills for this thing to work. While it certainly is good to have them, they are NOT a necessity. As far as cap and tanking goes, I run an Abaddon with 8 tach IIs and 3 heat sinks. Believe you me, if you don't completely suck at this game, it's not that hard to manage a shield tank plus 4 tachs. QFT Also this ship absolutely dominates in pvp. Too bad it's around 900 a pop :(
Tregaron Minmatar Filthy Scum	Posted - 2008.04.15 13:54:00 - [25] Originally by: Riho gimped ? lol strong shield tank + 1000 dps whit guns... wouldnt say gimped tbh :P you are joking right 1000 dps lolz more like 4700 dps 2008.04.08 17:08:13 ] (combat) Your Amarr Navy Mega Pulse Laser barely scratches <XIII>(Dominix), causing 590.6 damage. 13:07:36 Combat Your Amarr Navy Mega Pulse Laser perfectly strikes (Raven), wrecking for 2613.4 damage.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.04.15 20:09:00 - [26] Originally by: Tregaron you are joking right 1000 dps lolz more like 4700 dps 2008.04.08 17:08:13 ] (combat) Your Amarr Navy Mega Pulse Laser barely scratches <XIII>(Dominix), causing 590.6 damage. 13:07:36 Combat Your Amarr Navy Mega Pulse Laser perfectly strikes (Raven), wrecking for 2613.4 damage. WTS: understanding of DPS
Ivy Axisur	Posted - 2008.04.15 20:24:00 - [27] Edited by: Ivy Axisur on 15/04/2008 20:30:05 After a year and a half of flying the CNR, IÆve retired it in favor of the NM. I fly every ship in the game (excluding the new T2 BS) and this is the best mission runner IMO. IÆve got all gun and BS skills to lvl4 which is sufficient. The biggest advantage of the NM is itÆs ability to put down battleships fast. ItÆs biggest dis-advantage is the fact that your weapons and your shield both use a lot of cap making long missions like the Blockade difficult without warping out. I got around this with the following mission fit which can run any mission without cap issues: High Amarr Navy Tach x4 Large Smart Bomb (tachs cant fit close range frigs) Tractor Beam or NOS MID Large Cap Booster w/800 charge Shield Boost Amp XL Booster 3 Hardeners LOW Damage Control (I fit them to every expensive ship JIC) 2 Amarr Navy Heat Sinks 2 Power Diag II Rig CCC x2 Semi Memory Cell x1 My next upgrade will be T2 Rigs. I recently upgraded to a Pith A-type XL booster and therm/EM hardeners, but the T2 worked well too. The A-type just gave me some more breathing room.
Aria Valara	Posted - 2008.04.15 20:27:00 - [28] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Don't listen to the lvl5 fanatics. Theyre totally removed from reality in their elitism. quote] This quote is absolutely accurate. While I plan on training to lvl5 myself, if you canÆt do the missions at lvl4, lvl5 will not help you.
Beef Hardslab Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.04.15 21:20:00 - [29] Originally by: Ivy Axisur Edited by: Ivy Axisur on 15/04/2008 20:30:05 After a year and a half of flying the CNR, I’ve retired it in favor of the NM. I fly every ship in the game (excluding the new T2 BS) and this is the best mission runner IMO. I’ve got all gun and BS skills to lvl4 which is sufficient. The biggest advantage of the NM is it’s ability to put down battleships fast. It’s biggest dis-advantage is the fact that your weapons and your shield both use a lot of cap making long missions like the Blockade difficult without warping out. I got around this with the following mission fit which can run any mission without cap issues: High Amarr Navy Tach x4 Large Smart Bomb (tachs cant fit close range frigs) Tractor Beam or NOS MID Large Cap Booster w/800 charge Shield Boost Amp XL Booster 3 Hardeners LOW Damage Control (I fit them to every expensive ship JIC) 2 Amarr Navy Heat Sinks 2 Power Diag II Rig CCC x2 Semi Memory Cell x1 My next upgrade will be T2 Rigs. I recently upgraded to a Pith A-type XL booster and therm/EM hardeners, but the T2 worked well too. The A-type just gave me some more breathing room. I hope you are comfortable with the thought of losing that ship. Anyway, Nightmare is a bad mutha. Even just T2 fit it is a damn sexy workhorse, of course, flying it takes a bit more thought than a missile-spamming missionboat. All Level 5s are NOT needed, but they sure do help, and really, if you're going to fly something with that kind of value, why not devote some SP to it? Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve: Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii Podding my own alt in a gatecamp while drunk, he was carrying a hauler full of tech II goods, Oops.
Impolite Andevil The Shadow Knights	Posted - 2008.04.15 23:48:00 - [30] I run a Nightmare for missions, and even vs. angels it's still acceptably quick. Vs. just about anything else it absolutely dominates CNRs. It does take decent gunnery skills - I'm a bit over 8 mil sp in gunnery. Also, faction tachyons with faction ammo are a good replacement for T2 pulse if you are low on skill points. For tanking it can tank every bit as hard as a CNR, and it really shines with a Pith XL. Don't bother with Gist. You don't need to perma-run and the cap on a Nightmare is more than sufficient to run a Pith XL for a long time, especially if you use semiconductor memory cells instead of CCCs as rigs. Also very, very fun to use the ship in PVP. I used it on a passive drake who was stealing ore from a corpmate in high-sec. That was a joy to behold! The guy couldn't believe how fast his uber passive tank melted under laser fire.

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