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Freya Selene
Delucian Defence Initiative The Church.
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Posted - 2008.04.15 15:18:00 -
[1]
The major problem of nano's is the stacking of diffrent types to increase your base speed. Combine that with a nice MWD and look yourself go.
How can this be resolved without major impact on diffrent modules etc etc...
1) Change AB/MWD to only effect the ships main base speed (without rigs/modules)
Thoughts?
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.04.15 15:49:00 -
[2]
Choose one or more of the following:
- Reduce speed bonus from implants by 30% - Reduce the speed bonus from command ships by 30% - Restrict the speed bonus of the Acceleration Control skill to Afterburners (but increase the bonus to 10%) - Reduce the maneuverability of ships dramatically when they use a MWD - Add a cooldown period between MWD cycles - Have MWDs use fuel - Make MWD speed increase independent from mass, instead use the warp speed for modification and mass influences capacitor cost. - Make Nanofibers, Inertia Stabilizers, Overdrive Injectors and the similar rigs all stack as if they were the same kind of item. - Add a script to Warp Scramblers and Disruptors that allows them to disable a MWD, have Warpcore Stabilizers add a MWD strength. - Increase Stasis Webifier Range and/or increase the deceleration rate when webified. - Disable normal warp when a MWD is active on the ship
There. Can't come up with anything else at the moment. -------- Ideas for: Mining Clouds
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Freya Selene
Delucian Defence Initiative The Church.
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Posted - 2008.04.15 15:58:00 -
[3]
Mutch idees indeed. Tho all have can have a major impact on the game itself as well the coding behind it.
Adjusting the MWD/AB effects would be alot easyer and doesnt change any other effects to look after.
300m/s + 500% speed = 1800 m/s. If you get implant sets and commandship bonusses to it (roughly 60%), you'll get max 2880. Most ships will have a max speed of about 1500m/s.
The only concern this will give is the shiproles of minmatar recons. It also will change 0.0 fleet warfare to some extend
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Ellaine TashMurkon
CBC Interstellar The Unseen Company
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Posted - 2008.04.15 16:08:00 -
[4]
We could have overdrive injector changed from cargohold reduction (intended effect was affecting industrials travel speed at times before warp to 0 I think) to agility reduction.
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Alz Shado
Ever Flow
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Posted - 2008.04.15 16:57:00 -
[5]
Quote: Increase Stasis Webifier Range and/or increase the deceleration rate when webified.
This, with scripts. //// ---------=== []= ---------=== \\\\ Rifter(RedBad)
"Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand |
Anubis Xian
Vertigo One
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Posted - 2008.04.15 17:38:00 -
[6]
Double MWD Cap Penalty Double MWD Activation Cost Halve MWD Duration
Give 'speed' ships Afterburner Velocity Bonuses (Interceptors could perhaps receive 250-300% AB Max Velocity bonus)
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Juggernauts |
Freya Selene
Delucian Defence Initiative The Church.
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Posted - 2008.04.15 17:46:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Anubis Xian Double MWD Cap Penalty Double MWD Activation Cost Halve MWD Duration
Give 'speed' ships Afterburner Velocity Bonuses (Interceptors could perhaps receive 250-300% AB Max Velocity bonus)
This would not resolve the "nano age" but only increase it. It would create interceptors still at amazing speed but this time without the sig penalty.
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Anubis Xian
Vertigo One
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Posted - 2008.04.15 17:48:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Freya Selene
Originally by: Anubis Xian Double MWD Cap Penalty Double MWD Activation Cost Halve MWD Duration
Give 'speed' ships Afterburner Velocity Bonuses (Interceptors could perhaps receive 250-300% AB Max Velocity bonus)
This would not resolve the "nano age" but only increase it. It would create interceptors still at amazing speed but this time without the sig penalty.
So? Interceptors are supposed to be fast. And they don't take nearly as much effort to counter with webs.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Juggernauts |
Freya Selene
Delucian Defence Initiative The Church.
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Posted - 2008.04.15 18:03:00 -
[9]
3000 m/s is still fast.
This is exactly the problem of the nano age. The compleet value of fast has gone down the drain.
Couse of the nano's slower then 5000m/s you no longer count.
Another option could be to change the accceleration time when you hit your MWD. Example taking 10 to 15seconds before you reach topspeed instead of 3 seconds.
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Opertone
Caldari Simtech Productions
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Posted - 2008.04.15 18:03:00 -
[10]
the only problem with nano is that non nano ships cannot compete with the nano
nano ship can get out of combat whenever it wants to // impossible to catch without 5 people gang
some ships go too fast now, HACs are way too fast, they are meant to be tanks, not interceptor-like
nano problem appears because of recent addition of speed rigs, thermodynamics and massive implants
every ship in eve should have a role, some ships are not supposed to be fast/nano
if it is a battleship - main role is DPS
if it is a HAC - main role is tank and some dps
HACs must not speed tank (currently they often fit speed, tank, dps, tackle and cloak)
increase the mass of the slow tanking ships to match their role...
vagabond should not be as fast as an interceptor, add 80% mass to balance this issue
BS should not speed tank at all
if the nano becomes stacking penalised, it will hurt all ships
if certain classes get extra mass, this will fix the problem with NASTY multi role HACs and nano solo BS
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Dianeces
Minmatar The Illuminati.
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Posted - 2008.04.15 18:10:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Dianeces on 15/04/2008 18:12:45 Edit: Christ, this was a Hydra poast, why'd I even bother to reply. :cripes:
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Freya Selene
Delucian Defence Initiative The Church.
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Posted - 2008.04.15 18:15:00 -
[12]
The only way to counter nano's is to neutralise there cap or to web them. To kill there cap there is a range limit of aprox 24km. To web them there is the limit of minimatar pilots flying recon ships.
With the ability of almost nano'ing every ship, should there be only one major counter? (mini recons that is)
Comming to an idee/discussion thread claiming there are many counters against nano fits without underbuilding your statement is kind of useless.
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Dianeces
Minmatar The Illuminati.
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Posted - 2008.04.15 18:18:00 -
[13]
Quote: With the ability of almost nano'ing every ship
lol
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Opertone
Caldari Simtech Productions
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Posted - 2008.04.15 18:21:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Opertone on 15/04/2008 18:25:08 Edited by: Opertone on 15/04/2008 18:24:14 Edited by: Opertone on 15/04/2008 18:23:06 at best you can hit the nano... but you can not kill it
to kill a nano ishtar you may need - large tech 2 bubble, 10 km/s interceptor, minimatar recon, some combat ship, possibly an interdictor to follow him to the other systems, covops to find it in the safe spot
nano ishtar can be very fast and warp out within 2 secs, which makes it almost impossible to catch the nano ishtar
neutralizer does not guarantee the kill, he will still warp out
we have 5 ships for 1 ishtar... every other nano ishtar will require a new set of interceptor and minimatar recon
to catch 5 nano ishtars you ultimatlely need 20 people... or the ishtars will *****you one by one
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Freya Selene
Delucian Defence Initiative The Church.
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Posted - 2008.04.15 18:21:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Dianeces
Quote: With the ability of almost nano'ing every ship
lol
Thanks for your constructive input.
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Dianeces
Minmatar The Illuminati.
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Posted - 2008.04.15 18:28:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Freya Selene
Thanks for your constructive input.
No sweat. Thanks for amusing me and making my day go by that much quicker.
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Dianeces
Minmatar The Illuminati.
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Posted - 2008.04.15 18:32:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Opertone
nano ishtar can be very fast and warp out within 2 secs
Only if it's fit completely for agility (which its not) and has a full set of LG Nomad implants (which it doesn't) will it even get to a 2 second warp time. Maybe you should learn about things before trying to talk about them.
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Freya Selene
Delucian Defence Initiative The Church.
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Posted - 2008.04.15 18:35:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Freya Selene on 15/04/2008 18:35:52
Originally by: Dianeces
Originally by: Opertone
nano ishtar can be very fast and warp out within 2 secs
Only if it's fit completely for agility (which its not) and has a full set of LG Nomad implants (which it doesn't) will it even get to a 2 second warp time. Maybe you should learn about things before trying to talk about them.
Bubbles can only be used in 0.0. Together with a cloak hes aligned and out of bubble before a ship is near to reveal.
Same trick in lowsec.
The man knows what hes talking about, he also tryes to give constructive feetback. Afterall this is the idee section of the forums and not CAOD.
If flaming and trolling is all you have to offer in this discussion i hope you pass on.
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Dianeces
Minmatar The Illuminati.
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Posted - 2008.04.15 18:45:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Dianeces on 15/04/2008 18:48:07
Originally by: Freya Selene :words:
Learn to read. I said he didn't know what he was talking about because the odds of an Ishtar being fitted to warp out in two seconds are so remotely slim, it may as well be impossible. Also, cloaks slow you down, so if you're using a large anchorable bubble, it will take an inordinate amount of time to clear the edge. But you clearly know what you're talking about. Besides, anyone dumb enough to not simply burn back to the gate in a nanotar should really consider flying something else.
Edit: Great, now you've got me all upset. It's so much easier to troll when I can laugh about things instead of having to make :srspoasts:.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Cadien Cybernetics
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Posted - 2008.04.15 19:03:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 15/04/2008 19:04:21
I think these make the most sense:
- Reduce the maneuverability of ships dramatically when they use a MWD.
(Yep, a MWD should feel like a 'turbo boost' or a dragster, where you can pretty much only go straight ahead.)
- Make MWD speed increase independent from mass, instead use the warp speed for modification and mass influences capacitor cost.
- Bring Polycarbon Engine Housing rigs in line with the other speed rigs.
An Auxiliary Thruster is weaker than an Overdrive Injector II. Polycarbon should be weaker than Nanofiber II. The prevalence of the 2x Polycarbon + 2x Overdrive II combo speaks volumes.
- Change Overdrive Injector from cargohold reduction (intended effect was affecting industrials travel speed at times before warp to 0 I think) to agility reduction.
___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well -
Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like 'nerf'
Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam |
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Cpt Branko
Surge. Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.15 19:03:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 15/04/2008 19:06:39 There's no need to do anything at all.
They're very much fine. Assuming they're not and basing a thread off it is just false and bogus.
That said, stop being terminally stupid and you know, think what makes nanoing ships which aren't meant for it possible (hint: one are plugged in your head, and one in your rigslots, and you can't nano half the ships without both).
We do NOT need to make the game battleships online with long-range webbing of any sort.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Freya Selene
Delucian Defence Initiative The Church.
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Posted - 2008.04.15 19:42:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 15/04/2008 19:06:39 There's no need to do anything at all.
They're very much fine. Assuming they're not and basing a thread off it is just false and bogus.
That said, stop being terminally stupid and you know, think what makes nanoing ships which aren't meant for it possible (hint: one are plugged in your head, and one in your rigslots, and you can't nano half the ships without both).
We do NOT need to make the game battleships online with long-range webbing of any sort.
Originally by: Freya
With the ability of almost nano'ing every ship
Thank you for calling me terminally stupid. Petittion for you sir.
As for no need. Even CCP themselfs claim that the current speed boost is not what they had in mind to achieve. Combined with introduction of rigs speed changed for the worst.
I do understand that you nano lovers get up high when it comes down to taking a closer look at what makes these ships strong. However there game design never been for flying uncatchable arround. I fly nano ships myself, they do great, love them, cant catch them easly. Sadly they dont tank sentry's that well, else i would use them even more. And you need a team to catch a single one of them.
Thats where its wrong.
If an interceptor is able to tackle.. or an interdictor i can understand till such point. But ships that are able to tackle, kill, choise there engagement or simple get out of trouble those are to mutch for a single ship.
At this point HAC's in combination with nano fit are to overpowered. Some even fly faster then Interceptors and Interdictors. And i havent even started about nano battlecruiser gangs.
Assuming thats fine for a cruiser sized ship is "just false and bogus". And do i hear someone say Machariel?
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Kruel
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2008.04.15 21:20:00 -
[23]
I've *never* been killed by a lone nanoship. Maybe it's just because I don't rat in the belts. And if you do find yourself out in space vs. a nanoship without being able to counter one, it's your fault. That's their territory.
Otherwise...
1. Nano ships stay out of web range and therefore can't keep you from running back to the gate (excluding Minnie recons which have ****-poor dps). 2. Vs. Curse & Ishtar you just kill the drones. 3. Heavy neut = no more mwd for speedy gonzales. 4. Overloaded webs combined with manual piloting yield surprising results. 5. Certain types of cruiser-sized weapons can track nanos easily. 6. They likely paid a lot more for their ship, setup, and implants than you did.
That said, I personally wouldn't mind if webs were given a little falloff AS LONG AS afterburners were made immune(or at least heavily resistant) to webs. ----------------------------------- You're not a pirate unless your -10 |
Freya Selene
Delucian Defence Initiative The Church.
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Posted - 2008.04.15 21:45:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Kruel
1. Nano ships stay out of web range and therefore can't keep you from running back to the gate (excluding Minnie recons which have ****-poor dps).
Ishtar does over 500dps, Vaga does aprox 300dps. Both keep scramble point on while killing. Not all ships have MWD fitted by default and therefor can run back to the gates in time.
Quote:
2. Vs. Curse & Ishtar you just kill the drones.
True.. Eve has alot of 1 on 1's.... not...
Quote:
3. Heavy neut = no more mwd for speedy gonzales.
Not all ships have Heavy neuts... only BS's types are able to fit those
Quote:
4. Overloaded webs combined with manual piloting yield surprising results.
Overloaded web of 10km gives 30% bonus.. 13km web really makes the diffrence.. or is it the pilotting.. probly is..
Quote:
5. Certain types of cruiser-sized weapons can track nanos easily.
M Pulse? M beams? 220mm Vulcans? M Blasters? M railguns? Heavy missiles with 80km range? Heavy assault missiles with max 30km? Missiles hit when targets goes over 5000m/s?
Quote:
6. They likely paid a lot more for their ship, setup, and implants than you did.
Only for there rigs.
Quote:
That said, I personally wouldn't mind if webs were given a little falloff AS LONG AS afterburners were made immune(or at least heavily resistant) to webs.
At least something that indeed could be usefull. Still depending range you would be looking at a falloff of aprox 20km for webs then?
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Kruel
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2008.04.15 22:19:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Freya Selene stuff
Ok it's established we disagree on whether or not nanos are overpowered. I'll just leave it at that.
As for webs with falloff, I'd say no more than 10k. Overloaded that'd be 26k of webbage. Good enough. It would deter MWDs in combat.
But if afterburners aren't made immune/resistant at the same time, webs will be grossly overpowered. Right now MWD and webs are directly opposed to one another. You can't nerf or boost one without also nerfing/boosting the other.
There needs to be *some* amount of speed and maneuverability in this game, otherwise it'll just be rock/paper/scissors. And personally, I drool at the thought of being able to use small close range ships in combat again. Not to mention missile ships & target painters would get a stealth boost with this (which IMO is good - you don't see Caldari much in PVP these days aside from the obligatory Falcon for every gang). ----------------------------------- You're not a pirate unless your -10 |
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.04.15 23:01:00 -
[26]
Nanos themselves are not overpowered. The extremes of speed that can be achieved by combining a number of factors into one ship/situation is overpowered.
Cutting down in the extremes is what CCP is going to do, hopefully without killing off speed as a viable tactic. That's why (most) of my proposals were aimed at the implants, command ship and MWD. -------- Ideas for: Mining Clouds
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Cadien Cybernetics
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Posted - 2008.04.15 23:45:00 -
[27]
Yes, extremes are the cause for most MMOG troubles.
That being seid, perhaps CCP wants to take a look into bonus calculations. Adding all bonuses up and then applying them would be a lot less prone to creating extremes. Right now an extra bonus is much more useful than an extra 5 or 10%. Because +30%, +30% and +30% isn't +90%. It's +119.7%. With every extra bonus it gets worse. Maybe EVE is at the point where the game mechanics can't afford to introduce any more new bonuses. Maybe it has already gone a bit too far (rigs?).
___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well -
Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like 'nerf'
Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam |
Freya Selene
Delucian Defence Initiative The Church.
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Posted - 2008.04.16 00:09:00 -
[28]
Well they introduced stacking penalty, however it does only apply for the same module type. If it should work for same effects that would probly be a bether awnser.
But that also would effect tracking mods for low in combination with tracking in the mids (harder then allready).
Combination of less armor, less mass, MWD effecting it is the reason for fast nano setups. Huge examples:
Polycarbon rig: Reduction of weight at the expense of armor. (-10% at lvl 1) This doubles the effect of the rig on nanosetups. You only want your skill at lvl 1 couse -10% armor is even bether then -8% with lvl 2.
Auxiliary Thrusters: Increased speed at the expense of armor.
Low Friction Nozzle Joints: Increased agility at expense of armor.
All these 3 rigs used for nano setups have instead of a negative effect only a possitive effect on nano setups.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.04.16 00:25:00 -
[29]
Now that would be interesting:
All effects that affect the same attribute get stacking penalty instead of only the same module.
This would definitely cut off the extremes while not affecting the 'casual' fittings. -------- Ideas for: Mining Clouds
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Dianeces
Minmatar The Illuminati.
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Posted - 2008.04.16 00:53:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Abrazzar Now that would be interesting:
All effects that affect the same attribute get stacking penalty instead of only the same module.
This would definitely cut off the extremes while not affecting the 'casual' fittings.
Wow, if only it worked like this already, all our problems would be solved. Oh, wait....
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