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Redglare's Demise
Mutually Assured Distraction
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Posted - 2008.04.17 13:58:00 -
[61]
The two minute timer was implemented before cap ships, and probably without cap ships in mind.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2008.04.17 14:48:00 -
[62]
It would be better to
a) keep loot drops in self-destructed ships b) issue a killmail when more than 10% hp loss is due to other players
also try to do b) when pirate players suicide jump to high sec to try to avoid the km.
Better than the cap pilot having to wait 5 - 10 minutes if he gets pinned. |
Allaria Kriss
Minmatar Elipse Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.17 16:04:00 -
[63]
Blowing up your own ship when it's obviously stricken has been naval practice since the Age of Sail and before, especially if it's a Ship of the Line or other significant vessel that you don't want captured (Like a carrier). If you want to kill it, get bigger guns to blow it up before they can scuttle it - Even a capital ship is vulnerable to being destroyed from the inside very quickly.
Yes, it's lame, yes, it's cheesy, yes, it's robbing people of a hard-earned killmail, but it's also not all that uncommon nor should it be unexpected in a game like EVE. If you can't win, deny as much of the spoils of victory to your enemy as you can. |
Bronson Hughes
Knights of the Wild Visions of Warfare
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Posted - 2008.04.17 16:05:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Gamesguy
What makes you think the crew attempting to wreck the electronics and burn the sensitive information is anything like the complete destruction of a ship?
The enemy still captures the ship itself, the reactor, weapons, etc.
Actually, no. US submarines, especially modern nuclear powered and armed ones, have always had a series of scuttling valves that can be opened in order to sink the ship in deep water should it risk being captured. Subs from most other nations have them as well. No need for explosives, just let the sea do the job for you. This doesn't help you much in a port though, which is why subs usually only make port calls in very secure locations.
If you get a chance, read about U-505. It was a WWII German sub that tried to scuttle itself but was boarded and salvaged by US forces before it could sink. It's currently on display at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago, USA.
Mind you, I am making no statement about the EvE mechanic at hand, simply setting the facts straight about 'real' naval history. |
Kardin Vellorai
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Posted - 2008.04.17 18:13:00 -
[65]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist I agree with the OP. Its the same reason they put 2min timer in the first place. At one point in time, SD was instant. And the moment you got caught and knew your ship was going down, you could activate it to deny the pirate/enemy of any loot. This is the same thing, only in a ship you can't kill fast enough during smaller scale fights.
SD is a countermeasure for someone pinning you, and not letting you go, but not killing you either. It isn't a tool to deny people loot drops just because you were stupid and got caught.
and it is this reason that a ship the is self destructed should provide and insurance payout aswell. so both parties get what they deserve or what is percieved they deserve. The prey doesn't want the hunter to have the loot but gets how many hundred mill isk for SD'ing....that is flawed...you blow your ship up and still get paid. Insurance payouts should only be for losing your ship to other means..ei not SD'ing.
I'm your mom's alt.....time for bed dear!!!! |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.04.17 18:28:00 -
[66]
Guys, the entire reason there is a timer on self destructing is so you can't just wait until the last possible minute and then go >click< no loot for you!
You have to make such a decision early in the fight that you are going to give up any chance of winning and just scuttle your ship.
OTOH if you do want to fight it out, then you dont' get to self destruct your ship when it looks like you are going to lose.
The timer definitely needs to be increased for capital ships.
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.17 19:00:00 -
[67]
can the RL arguments just take a back seat, i dont care about horatio hornblower or what the battle of juttland was like.
If you undock, you can lose your ship, it makes no sense that self destruction should allow the victim to deny the aggressor anything. You got caught, everything should go to the killer |
Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.17 20:55:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Anaalys Fluuterby on 17/04/2008 20:56:33
Originally by: Matrixcvd
If you undock, you can lose your ship, it makes no sense that self destruction should allow the victim to deny the aggressor anything. You got caught, everything should go to the killer
Technically the wreck belongs to you, not the killer. The killer can just loot it, it doesn't "belong" to them.
And you DID lose your ship, just like had it got blown up. Dead, goodbye, gone. Modules too with no ability to have your friends recover them. The "rights" of the attacker in this case mean nothing IMHO, eve is supposed to be a cruel world , you just got counter-attacked with the Last Great Act of Defiance. |
Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.17 21:33:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby The "rights" of the attacker in this case mean nothing IMHO, eve is supposed to be a cruel world , you just got counter-attacked with the Last Great Act of Defiance.
no you got poked in the eye by a crying child...i dont care who has rights over the wreck but for something to disappear from the game world simple as a point of fact, is nuts, act of defiance? r u serious? the kill and all its goodies should go to the players doing the killing, you shouldn't be able to affect that by coping out
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.17 21:37:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Matrixcvd
no you got poked in the eye by a crying child...i dont care who has rights over the wreck but for something to disappear from the game world simple as a point of fact, is nuts, act of defiance? r u serious? the kill and all its goodies should go to the players doing the killing, you shouldn't be able to affect that by coping out
Weren't the Privateers whining about all the goodies getting snagged by ninja-looters? Seems that CCP said then that the loot technically belongs to the killed, not the killer. And yes, it is an act of defiance. Just the concept I can keep you from getting the spoils of the attack makes me a bit happier
I do agree that they shouldn't get insurance for self-destructing though. |
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Chomapuraku
Caldari Templar Republic R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.04.17 23:24:00 -
[71]
to be honest, the only reason i like self-destruct is because i like the thought of being a total bastard and denying your enemy loot like that.
for the purposes of cap ships and game-balance, self-destruct should either:
1. have a 5 or 7 minute timer 2. empty your cap immediately, drain it at a rate such that it empties halfway through the countdown, or turn off cap recharge. 3. stay as is, but deny you your insurance payout
i like the idea of denying your enemy that juicy loot, but i think it should either be harder to do or cost you something of your own. warfare is psychological by its very nature, so i think that you should be able to trade between psychological rewards and material ones (this is also why i think that nano-setups should be forced to commit to fights that they pick. you want the safety that speed affords, do it outside of a combat setup. you want an effective combat setup, do it without the safety of being able to run away) |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.04.18 15:05:00 -
[72]
Quote: to be honest, the only reason i like self-destruct is because i like the thought of being a total bastard and denying your enemy loot like that.
Yes, that is the only reason to use it. And if it's fine for capital ships to always be able to self destruct, lets make all ships able to self destruct instantly. Just remove the timer. You're at 5% hull and going to lose? >>click<< self destruct!!
The timer needs to be adjusted by ship class so that people can't wait until it is obvious they are losing to self destruct. Self destruction should be a choice you have to make early in the fight.
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Allaria Kriss
Minmatar Elipse Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.18 15:40:00 -
[73]
Real world or no, it's the job of the attacker to destroy the defender, and the defender's job to make the attacker's victory, if imminent, as meaningless and hollow as possible. If you can't destroy the defender before they've made your victory taste so bad that you protest their ability to do it to you on the forums, then, well, I suggest you learn what a Pyrrhic victory is.
If you can lock down and break the tank of a battleship with a pair of frigates without the battleship being able to hit you they might very well do the same thing - I've seen BS's try to self-destruct when disabled by frigate mobs. Self-destruct as it is is perfectly fine. You simply need to bring more firepower if you want to stop the ship and its crew from running around planting explosives on everything, then making for the escape pods while you hammer away on their armor with a grossly underpowered fleet.
They're already losing their ship (insurable) and every one of their drones, fighters, and modules (not). Denying you any trophy for your wall is just a conciliation prize, a 'Thank you for playing, better luck next time' gift. Provided you let them get away with it. |
MilowFV
Echo Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.19 11:35:00 -
[74]
I guess every few months this topic need to be brought up to the developers.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=487904
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=518885
I was bored and wonder how many times this has come up I just linked the first 2 I read.
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RichThugster
Gallente Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.04.19 12:00:00 -
[75]
I agree. Even with quite a significant non-capital force, there is more than enough time for a capital to self-destruct and lose the same, yet deny their killers any spoils. The killers may have lost a small handful of ships, keeping the capital pinned down, and then after all that work, and losses they may gain absolutely nothing.
Perhaps a total change of removing it, or making it much longer is unfair, and too much of a big change at once. However perhaps changing it so the capital cannot self destruct within a certain time of aggression. Whether this agression is just starting aggression or returning aggression would make a good discussion point. However the idea is simply, if the capital aggresses, it will have to wait X minutes (id say 3-5min) before it can iniate self-destruct, and aggressing afterwards resets the counter Owing to lack of Eve-related content, signature removed. If you would like to discuss this, please mail [email protected] - Mitnal |
Gorith
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Posted - 2008.04.19 13:02:00 -
[76]
I agree it's stupid when you get denied loot and killmail when you down a cap. honestly the simple answer is to make self destruct ONLY able to engage if you dont have an aggression timer. Or remove the option from capitals all together
By the way if your self destructing after your tank is broken and your going down you ARE griefing
and why the hell are some people arguing pvp vs pve on a topic like this? |
Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.19 22:22:00 -
[77]
I have a fun idea to throw at this downward spiraling thread.
Back in Homeworld if you scuttled a ship it would explode violently, causing splash damage to ships in range. It would have use when you start pinging the enemy with probes. Probes had a most incredible scuttle explosion... so I'd frequently throw them into waves of enemy interceptors and other assault craft and pop as many of them as I could.
Anyway, let's examine the effect this would have. If you self-destructed a carrier, any ship in the say... 50km range would take a HUGE wailing, and ships further out would receive some damage as well. Additionally, a new notification would need to be displayed that a player WAS self-destructing their ship as it often gets lost in the damage readouts. At any rate, self-destruct notifications would effectively cause players to really think about whether or not they can destroy a ship in the time allotted.
Here's the catch: Self-destructing the ship causes such a violent explosion that when you lose your ship, it would cause you to drop all the strongest modules (that were able to survive the explosion). That means all your top meta stuff is going to sit in the wreck afterwards because now we are role playing that it was a violent explosion, and only the most resilient stuff survived.
Finally, once you self-destruct and cancel, you cannot re-initiate self-destruct for 60 minutes.
Anyway, it's an idea to tinker with.
Now, let's not start with the "omg lagzor" idea. You can easily implement a smartbomb-like effect when a ship self-destructs.
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Cpt Branko
Surge. Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.19 22:40:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Captator
Originally by: DigitalCommunist I would rather not remove the 'destroys your loot' aspect of self-destruct, because it adds some realism. But that would be an easy fix. A better fix is to base the time to self destruct on your ships capacitor size. It makes sense that bigger capacitors might take longer to overload and stuff.
So far the only sensible suggestion I have read on this thread.
Having the timer in seconds relate somehow to the base capacitor amount of a ship (before skills otherwise you are penalized for having better cap skills), is logical, as it would take longer for the reactor to overheat and go into meltdown.
Very sensible idea.
Everything the 'self-destruct ftw' crowd is saying is that you need to blob more.
I hope your grids never load.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Marlona Sky
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.19 23:10:00 -
[79]
If they would just give the attackers a killmail that would be great.
Person dying is happy because he left no loot for them and attackers are happy because they get the killmail.
Sadly most carrier pilots hit the self destruct when our scout enters system, they don't wait for the 'entering hull' scenerio.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you and... scouts, logistic ships, people to web you, alts with bonuses, not fitting nice gear, avoiding trafic hubs, etc... easy right?? |
Buyerr
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:04:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Rabid Rich lets try the shoe on the other foot shall we carebears?
how would you feel if you worked your way through a level 4 mission and then the boss rat at the end selfdestructed just before you get to him thus making it impossible to complete the mission? oh and all your collected loot and salvage was erased too....
cause that is what it is like for a pvper gang that has an enemy carrier self destruct as it goes into low structure
hehe this is so funny "RABLE not fair, stupid carebaering people they should have NOTHING choice it is there fault they don't have tactics and we gank up on them 20 vs. 1".. loled.. my answer: tactic is excatly!! what they use, and very good tactic for that, when they self destruct denying you any joy of the kill. the carebear here is the people that gank up on a ship a whole bunch instead of taking it on in a fair fight, but no.. and there is NO tactic at all in blobbing a carrier, my gf could do that if i lend her my account (and she does not even know the damn gamemechanic), using something like selfdestruct in this manner is fine, although i do tend to agree that the timer should be according to ship class, i mean a frig is not very likely to selfdestruct in any situation XD etc.
I declare war on stupidity |
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stinger7
eve tutors inc
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:11:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Buyerr
hehe this is so funny "RABLE not fair, stupid carebaering people they should have NOTHING choice it is there fault they don't have tactics and we gank up on them 20 vs. 1".. loled.. my answer: tactic is excatly!! what they use, and very good tactic for that, when they self destruct denying you any joy of the kill. the carebear here is the people that gank up on a ship a whole bunch instead of taking it on in a fair fight, but no.. and there is NO tactic at all in blobbing a carrier, my gf could do that if i lend her my account (and she does not even know the damn gamemechanic), using something like selfdestruct in this manner is fine, although i do tend to agree that the timer should be according to ship class, i mean a frig is not very likely to selfdestruct in any situation XD etc.
If you hate blobbing so much you should remove the self-destrut from aggro'd ships as with it ppl will be more encouraged to blob so they can kill it before it pops.
Anyway....
PPL have been using self destruct in spaceship TV series to deny the bad guys a victory for years, feck me captain kirk did it virtually every week even if his breakfast was late.
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Sparkinator
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:27:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Sparkinator on 20/04/2008 11:28:01 This thread is chock full of irony. The PVPers constantly go "I'm so badass I'm a pirate, and EVE is a dark harsh world, so you all should take your deaths in stride and laugh!" Well, suck it up. You like to act like that when someone else has issues, practice what you preach. You don't like it? Too bad.
You hate it when people get upset and complain because something isn't how they like it, well stop being hypocrites and kill the thing faster. I swear, the more PVPers I see, the more they show themselves as people wanting easy kills.
Edit: Just think of this as being probed out and having your hard earned salvage stolen from you. But hey, this is EVE! --------------------------- Your neighborhood sociopath. |
TomParad0x
Caldari Soul Ripper Consortium
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Posted - 2008.04.20 14:37:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Rabid Rich lets try the shoe on the other foot shall we carebears?
how would you feel if you worked your way through a level 4 mission and then the boss rat at the end selfdestructed just before you get to him thus making it impossible to complete the mission? oh and all your collected loot and salvage was erased too....
cause that is what it is like for a pvper gang that has an enemy carrier self destruct as it goes into low structure
While I think you're comparison is a bit off there... I am inclined to agree.
Game play wise, I think it's some what lame because you have plenty of time to arm it if you see your losing/going to lose, but the enemy has no way to stop it (Unless they can destroy it before it blows, which unless the target cap ship is stupid and can't time worth **** or the enemy has enough ships to do it quickly, wont really happen).
Though, looking at it from a more real life standpoint it some what makes sense (Scuttle the ship before the enemy can take it). Though, this is far from real life...
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Norjia Blacksteel
Gallente Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2008.04.20 15:41:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Norjia Blacksteel on 20/04/2008 15:46:11 No sympathy at all for the OP. None. Not even a little.
Edit: I've read more of the thread. Damn, you guys are whiny!!! ---- Norjia Blacksteel CEO Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing |
Vanessa Vale
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Posted - 2008.04.20 22:43:00 -
[85]
ever considered playng eve without caring about the killboards?
Minmatar Boost Brigade |
Neal Cassady
Mutually Assured Distraction
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Posted - 2008.04.21 00:43:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Chomapuraku you catch a carrier off guard with a ragtag force not worthy of a full-out battle, he gets to deny you the loot.
we prefer the term "tactical recon/hac gang"
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Red Harvest
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Posted - 2008.04.21 06:44:00 -
[87]
I would love self-destructing capitals to make a nice DD like explosion, after all why bother with the baseball bat if you can overload the reactor and take the b**** with you.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.04.21 07:12:00 -
[88]
Originally by: sliver 0xD Edited by: sliver 0xD on 17/04/2008 11:51:29
Originally by: Rabid Rich lets try the shoe on the other foot shall we carebears?
how would you feel if you worked your way through a level 4 mission and then the boss rat at the end self destructed just before you get to him thus making it impossible to complete the mission? oh and all your collected loot and salvage was erased too....
cause that is what it is like for a pvper gang that has an enemy carrier self destruct as it goes into low structure
as a pirate i would CRY LESS & GET BIGGER GUNS!
honestly i do not see anything wrong with the self destruct timer.
if it took you 2 min to kill a carriers hull. that means you probably were with a small fleet and the solo pvping carrier who should be experienced could not kill any of your ships. expecting you probably had him jammed. witch makes a 1bil ship fail over a 100mil falcon or arazu. i would say that should be fixed.
for you a special example, thats a navy issue raven getting killed by a cruiser npc :P
2mins to kill a carrier... (1mil ehp 3kd dps tankable) how many bs is that? at least 1bn in battleships and then that 100mil recon, hmm, wait thats more expensive than the carrier. also involves coordination of multiple pilots wee bit of a misread, but meh wrote it out. and yea just getting through hull 170kish with 60% resists. but then it probably would have sded somewhere in armor
and I don't think experienced players solo in a carrier
but anyways
self destruction is to prevent them from taking the ship, but since every pvper is a kb *****, its clearly just a clever ploy to lol at pvpers!
not that i haven't made 100mil+ on single ship kills or anything
I really liked the sd popping your pod idea
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.04.21 07:17:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Vanessa Vale ever considered playng eve without caring about the killboards?
our killboard is more of an internal tool to see what we have done. beats logging in and asking if anything nifty died in the last day or two. oh and its much neater than the in game corp kill list, that and don't want to make everyone a director
how often do you see corps going LOOK AT OUR KILLBOARD!!! Only times I have seen that have been look at this comedy fit, or hey we are a merc corp Look at what we did against this corp.
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.21 08:47:00 -
[90]
SD should do equal damage as your current value of shield+armor+hull, all modules destroyed. However during the SD time all your modules will offline, unable to warp, unable to move. Basicly just sitting there for the duration.
Attackers will then either have the choice of trying to go for the kill within the timer, or flee/move out of range until the ship goes boom - and you shouldn't be able to cancel the SD once initiated.
Insurance... undecided on that point, but maybe more realistic if you wouldn't get paid as it's basicly insurance fraud doing it yourself to get the money lol
Secure 3rd party service ■ Do you Veldspar? |
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