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HAM Drake v. Harbinger (PvP)

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Petyr Baelich Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2008.04.17 03:16:00 - [1] Debating various setups with a corpmate today, I fly caldari and he flies amarr. Got around to discussing PVP setups and I happened to mention that as much derided as the caldari ships are for non-support pvp roles, the HAM drake is an excellent pvp battlecruiser. Long story short, I was laughed at for a few minutes and then challenged to a duel, he in a harbinger and I in my trusty Drake. I'm still fairly low on SP at the moment, (finishing up lvl 5s on support skills) so we postponed the duel for a month or so. Am I completely off base here? I think it will be a fairly even fight, and if anything, skewed in my advantage. EFT seems to back me up, but I don't have much experience fitting armor tanks so I may have horribly gimped the harb I set up. Certainly the DPS was on-par, although the Drake is very hard to setup with t2 HAMs and 3 BCS 2s, (I have to use a 5% PG implant as well as a RCU). This being a PVP fit, MWD and Scram were mandatory mids, (although I'd really rather go with an AB, as it would free up a ton of grid and let me use a PDS instead of the RCU). Thoughts, suggestions, tactics?
Firkragg 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.04.17 03:21:00 - [2] Hmmm a drake that can outdps a harbinger? are you sure about that....
Petyr Baelich Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2008.04.17 03:25:00 - [3] I didn't say out-dps, I said on-par. The Drake I built was just above 600, and the harb was around 630something. Of course, the Drake had far more EHP, that's why I think the battle will be in my favor.
Calypso Rose	Posted - 2008.04.17 03:53:00 - [4] 7x HAM II MWD, Web, Scram, 2x Invul II, LSE DCU II, 3x BCU II 3x Extender Rigs I believe it requires a 3% grid implant with AWU 5 and shield upgrades 5 so its not a very skill friendly setup, but it has a decent HP, resists and damage while having MWD, Web, Scram. A setup with a shield booster and cap injector would be nice, but your pretty limited by grid and cpu.
Julius Romanus Fatalix Inc. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.17 03:53:00 - [5] A lot of people disagree. But personally I think the gank/buffer drake is slightly above the harb in power.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.04.17 03:58:00 - [6] Originally by: Julius Romanus A lot of people disagree. But personally I think the gank/buffer drake is slightly above the harb in power. From a pure gank/tank standpoint the drake is very strong for it's class. However, the Drake suffers from the common Caldari problem involving tackling and tanking. A HAM drake that handles tackling by itself has an uncomfortably thin buffer and most certainly can't really think about active tanking in a HAM drake without resorting to immensely expensive faction gear. If BOTH ships are set for tackle, I'd probably give the nod to the Harbinger - the buffer difference is slim enough that the higher damage fo the Harb could pretty easily negate it. Not to mention the harb will naturally be hitting the weaker resists for the Drake, so unless it's specifically set up to tank a harbinger's damage I'd say the ball is decisively in the harbinger's court.
Julius Romanus Fatalix Inc. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.17 04:10:00 - [7] Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: Julius Romanus A lot of people disagree. But personally I think the gank/buffer drake is slightly above the harb in power. From a pure gank/tank standpoint the drake is very strong for it's class. However, the Drake suffers from the common Caldari problem involving tackling and tanking. A HAM drake that handles tackling by itself has an uncomfortably thin buffer and most certainly can't really think about active tanking in a HAM drake without resorting to immensely expensive faction gear. If BOTH ships are set for tackle, I'd probably give the nod to the Harbinger - the buffer difference is slim enough that the higher damage fo the Harb could pretty easily negate it. Not to mention the harb will naturally be hitting the weaker resists for the Drake, so unless it's specifically set up to tank a harbinger's damage I'd say the ball is decisively in the harbinger's court. Well, assuming something like the setup 2-3 posts above(hams, 2x invuln, tackle, lse, mwd) and the FMP plate harb both with 3 slot buffer tanks the gun dps vs missile dps is the same. The dps advantage of the harb is slim and from drones. Should also be noted the drake is hitting full dps at 20km. If the harb is using scorch he is soundly out dps'd. The drake is also sporting 15k more ehp, and a 150dps peak regen. I'm not really complaining. I like the gank drake, everyone thinks drakes dont work for pvp - and they do. Hell, the drake is even faster and aligns quicker than the plated harb =P ------------------ For Medicinal Use Only.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.04.17 04:31:00 - [8] Originally by: Julius Romanus Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: Julius Romanus A lot of people disagree. But personally I think the gank/buffer drake is slightly above the harb in power. From a pure gank/tank standpoint the drake is very strong for it's class. However, the Drake suffers from the common Caldari problem involving tackling and tanking. A HAM drake that handles tackling by itself has an uncomfortably thin buffer and most certainly can't really think about active tanking in a HAM drake without resorting to immensely expensive faction gear. If BOTH ships are set for tackle, I'd probably give the nod to the Harbinger - the buffer difference is slim enough that the higher damage fo the Harb could pretty easily negate it. Not to mention the harb will naturally be hitting the weaker resists for the Drake, so unless it's specifically set up to tank a harbinger's damage I'd say the ball is decisively in the harbinger's court. Well, assuming something like the setup 2-3 posts above(hams, 2x invuln, tackle, lse, mwd) and the FMP plate harb both with 3 slot buffer tanks the gun dps vs missile dps is the same. The dps advantage of the harb is slim and from drones. Should also be noted the drake is hitting full dps at 20km. If the harb is using scorch he is soundly out dps'd. The drake is also sporting 15k more ehp, and a 150dps peak regen. I'm not really complaining. I like the gank drake, everyone thinks drakes dont work for pvp - and they do. Hell, the drake is even faster and aligns quicker than the plated harb =P I'm only saying from a standpoint of natual damage types and resists. Unless the Drake is fitted specifically against EM/Therm damage I'd say it's actually SOUNDLY out DPS's by the Harb. I'm sure the theoritical question could be resolved simply by running some sort of recursive equation and if the argument goes on long enough I'm sure someone will go through the effort.
Julius Romanus Fatalix Inc. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.17 05:15:00 - [9] Eh i've done the testing on sisi, ham drake wins. but from a pure numbers standpoint the harb has slightly more dps at 6km, drake superior dps at 20km and faster. Drake has slightly more hp against pure em dmg with no em hards(just 2 invulns and all skills 5), and approx 100dps peak regen against em(its better against therm of course). Thats it from me on the subject though.
MalVortex Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.04.17 05:29:00 - [10] I think the Harbinger would Beat out a HAM drake, assuming equal skills and competent piloting due to the damage type difference. EM/Therm will hit the drake significantly harder than Kinetic missiles will hit the harbinger. The harb can also use medium ECM drones or TII combat, while the drake is left with much less powerful small drones. HAM drakes are universally underestimated, however. Just because they might lose to the caldari's natural hunter in no way diminishes their lethality in non-duel situations.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.04.17 05:51:00 - [11] ecm drone harbinger although the pvp ham drake is rather nasty. also note that not every character is a lv 5 char. so have a good fight and let us know how it goes
Inertial The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.04.17 07:40:00 - [12] There is also a difference on how the tanks work. Once the passive tank of the Drake is gone, it doesn't tank anymore, while the active tank of the harb continues to tank when it goes into structure, which might give it enough time to win. TBH tough, I have no idea of who would win.
Amberly Coteaz Amarr Tarnak inc. The Nexus Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.17 08:00:00 - [13] Well I currently fly the FMP buffer harbinger and im skilling for the 2x invul lse buffer HAM Drake. Im curious too
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.04.17 08:17:00 - [14] My money's on the drake. Especially if you allow 'counter fitting' and slap 3 TDs on there :). Drakes paper DPS is a bit lower, and it's EHP... dunno, might be. But it still gets some shield regen. And it still doesn't have to worry about tracking. Sure if you drive up and press f1,f2,f3... it might not work so well, but if you know how to fly your ship, and take advantage of the fact that he has tracking and you don't, I think the drake should win most times.
Opertone Caldari Simtech Productions	Posted - 2008.04.17 08:43:00 - [15] harbinger is better PVP ship... harbinger - turrets can track and hit things that move around, med slots can go for a command module drake is a better PVE ships drake's missiles can not hit real PVP ships, amazing tank is excellent against NPCs, but doesn't help when you need MWD, scrambler and damage mod if you spare the harbinger versus a drake in a tournament - neither will break the other's tank. in fact 2 battleships have problems killing a properly tanked drake, but the drake can not do any damage either... in current PVP speed is prevalent, the drake will never hit fast moving HACs, interceptors, DRAKE doesn't have enough DPS to kill a BS however PVP harbinger is a fearsome ship, if you tank it right (assuming you can fly command ships) it can deliver a punch and tank like insane for one engagement, however no ammar ships are cap stable i did some EFT tests and the best damaging missile spewer Appears to be the Heavy assault missile sacrilege, as well as the most effective one then comes the HAM drake, it is slow, but has better tank than Cerberus Cerberus is slow too, but also has not such good tank or damage as the drake, cerberus doesn't have enough effective hit points and can not use MWD and scramm without sacrificing the tank. It remains paper thin sitting duck, missiles do not do as much damage when you want to use precision heavies on vagabonds, precision heavies also slow you down a lot Harbinger and Zealot can both hit vagabonds, unlike sacrilege drake or cerberus, and they hit them hard, while having the option for tank, tackle and MWD it results in missile spewing ships simply not suitable for PVP (as of current eve build), then the shield tankers being ultimately weak in one on one
Gypsio III Bambooule	Posted - 2008.04.17 08:53:00 - [16] I've looked into this one thoroughly. Given similar skills, and using the standard HAM gank Drake (triple BCS, suitcase, full tackle and extender rigs), on a straight gank vs. tank comparison, it's really pretty similar. A dual-MAR-tanked Harbinger cannot handle the DPS and runs out of HP. But buffer-tanked Harbingers are more competitive. The buffer FMP fit I drew up would, in a straight tank vs. gank comparison, run out of EHP at almost exactly the same time as the Drake. For a HP buffer fit, the difference is just a few seconds in the Drake's favour. However, this excludes the effect of passive regen, which is rather tricky to model, which would give the Drake an advantage. But it also assumes that everyone is always hitting for full damage, which is reasonable enough for the Drake but maybe not for the Harbinger - but, equally, assumes no wrecking hits. And the biggest problem is that I've assumed no ECM drones. So, conclusion - to kill the Harbinger, either hope he's active-tanked, or have similar skills, shoot the ECM drones and hope for the best.
Kevrlet Gallente Knighthawk Light Industries	Posted - 2008.04.17 08:55:00 - [17] Originally by: Opertone harbinger is better PVP ship... harbinger - turrets can track and hit things that move around, med slots can go for a command module 'Command modules' (you meant Gang Assist Modules) go in high slots. Originally by: Opertone if you spare the harbinger versus a drake in a tournament - neither will break the other's tank. in fact 2 battleships have problems killing a properly tanked drake, but the drake can not do any damage either... Sorry, wrong. Any battleship fit to deal any decent amount of damage can solo a drake no problem. Originally by: Opertone however PVP harbinger is a fearsome ship, if you tank it right (assuming you can fly command ships) it can deliver a punch and tank like insane for one engagement, however no ammar ships are cap stable Harbinger's not a command ship, and ANY SHIP IN THE GAME can be cap stable. Originally by: Opertone i did some EFT tests and the best damaging missile spewer Appears to be the Heavy assault missile sacrilege, as well as the most effective one EFT tests...that explains so much. He is right though, the Sacrilege is the HAM king. Originally by: Opertone Cerberus is slow too, but also has not such good tank or damage as the drake, cerberus doesn't have enough effective hit points and can not use MWD and scramm without sacrificing the tank. It remains paper thin sitting duck, missiles do not do as much damage when you want to use precision heavies on vagabonds, precision heavies also slow you down a lot You know nothing of this fantastic ship. Cerbs don't tank. They snipe you. Originally by: Opertone Harbinger and Zealot can both hit vagabonds, unlike sacrilege drake or cerberus, and they hit them hard, while having the option for tank, tackle and MWD No they can't. Well, Zealot can if the pilot is really good at managing transversal. Harbinger simply can't unless the****abond pilot sucks. All in all I suggest you delete EFT and get much more experience in real EVE play before even thinking of downloading it again.
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.17 08:56:00 - [18] Originally by: Opertone harbinger is better PVP ship... harbinger - turrets can track and hit things that move around, med slots can go for a command module drake is a better PVE ships drake's missiles can not hit real PVP ships, amazing tank is excellent against NPCs, but doesn't help when you need MWD, scrambler and damage mod I stopped here. Mate, you are eithr stupid or blind because there was proper HAM drake setup posted in this thread. Setup which includes mwd, web, scram, which is faster than harbinger and which deals more damage at scorch ranges (so outdamages harbinger at 6-20km). No it doesnt have amazing tank - its buffer tank (go and learn around forums how buffer tanks work) which is prety much useless vs NPCs but its second best thing (just after pimp officer/deadspace active tanks) in pvp. Flown HAM drake yesterday on sisi for fun - pretty much any hac that misjudged me died (hi zealot which entered web or deimos who thought drakes are only tank no gank - was funny to plaster that deimos in 30 seconds). So yea. Pretty much start flying HAM/missile ships in PVP before you comment coz they are flown differently from turret ones and they do NOT suck (unless you as pilot are bad and unimaginative).
Gypsio III Bambooule	Posted - 2008.04.17 08:58:00 - [19] Originally by: Opertone Horrible stuff Pretty much everything there is flat wrong.
Opertone Caldari Simtech Productions	Posted - 2008.04.17 09:49:00 - [20] but you all suck here i am telling the truth - you are just bashing me go HIT vagabond in PVP with any of the missiles, you will fail test again, 2 battleships can not kill a properly tanked drake, you fail here where do you see one on one fights? it is normally 10 tri against 1 hydra who the **** will go in a drake on a harbinger? drake missiles will never hit anything hard... drakes are defenceless, active tanked drakes with MWD and scramm is a joke laser battlecruisers can go solo and win missile battlecruise will go solo and be ganked how can shield tank beat an armor tank? - in your wet dream you all say stupid things here, because all you fly in TRI is vagabonds
Opertone Caldari Simtech Productions	Posted - 2008.04.17 09:51:00 - [21] please for once bring a full HAM drake fleet... all you have is nano****getry bah
Shiodome Caldari Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.17 10:06:00 - [22] Edited by: Shiodome on 17/04/2008 10:05:59 lol have you even logged into EVE before? A t2 HAM drake destroys your average Vag pilot. meaning a pilot without snakes... which contrary to popular belief is still the majority of vaga pilots. _____________________________________ today i am this cool: [uncool]================[*]====[cool]
Opertone Caldari Simtech Productions	Posted - 2008.04.17 10:13:00 - [23] Originally by: Shiodome Edited by: Shiodome on 17/04/2008 10:05:59 lol have you even logged into EVE before? A t2 HAM drake destroys your average Vag pilot. meaning a pilot without snakes... which contrary to popular belief is still the majority of vaga pilots. this will not happen A.: vagabond warps out B.: missiles can not hit vagabond hard enough C.: vagabond don't go alone
Rach NiKunni	Posted - 2008.04.17 10:13:00 - [24] Originally by: Petyr Baelich I didn't say out-dps, I said on-par. The Drake I built was just above 600, and the harb was around 630something. Of course, the Drake had far more EHP, that's why I think the battle will be in my favor. You built a drake with 600dps?
Gypsio III Bambooule	Posted - 2008.04.17 10:17:00 - [25] Quote: but you all suck here i am telling the truth - you are just bashing me go HIT vagabond in PVP with any of the missiles, you will fail test again, 2 battleships can not kill a properly tanked drake, you fail here where do you see one on one fights? it is normally 10 tri against 1 hydra who the **** will go in a drake on a harbinger? drake missiles will never hit anything hard... drakes are defenceless, active tanked drakes with MWD and scramm is a joke laser battlecruisers can go solo and win missile battlecruise will go solo and be ganked how can shield tank beat an armor tank? - in your wet dream you all say stupid things here, because all you fly in TRI is vagabonds Lolz, complete rubbish. You have no clue whatsoever.
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.04.17 10:31:00 - [26] Originally by: Rach NiKunni Originally by: Petyr Baelich I didn't say out-dps, I said on-par. The Drake I built was just above 600, and the harb was around 630something. Of course, the Drake had far more EHP, that's why I think the battle will be in my favor. You built a drake with 600dps? It is possible with maxed skills and a 3% PG implant (includes drones). A bit more reasonable value is about 550 DPS - that requires "just" AWU4, Shield Upgrades 4, level 4 spec skill, no implants. About 100 DPS of that is from drones, so it has about 450 DPS when using ECM drones. Still very good.
Opertone Caldari Simtech Productions	Posted - 2008.04.17 10:36:00 - [27] Originally by: Gypsio III Quote: but you all suck here i am telling the truth - you are just bashing me go HIT vagabond in PVP with any of the missiles, you will fail test again, 2 battleships can not kill a properly tanked drake, you fail here where do you see one on one fights? it is normally 10 tri against 1 hydra who the **** will go in a drake on a harbinger? drake missiles will never hit anything hard... drakes are defenceless, active tanked drakes with MWD and scramm is a joke laser battlecruisers can go solo and win missile battlecruise will go solo and be ganked how can shield tank beat an armor tank? - in your wet dream you all say stupid things here, because all you fly in TRI is vagabonds Lolz, complete rubbish. You have no clue whatsoever. flaming wars - achura speaks i see no drakes in PVP, go see for yourself
Gypsio III Bambooule	Posted - 2008.04.17 10:49:00 - [28] Quote: i see no drakes in PVP, go see for yourself Please excuse me while I delete pretty much my entire PVP history, then. I'll be especially careful to delete all my solo Vaga kills.
Lakut Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.17 11:03:00 - [29] Originally by: Opertone flaming wars - achura speaks i see no drakes in PVP, go see for yourself I see faction fitted lulzravens, though.
Rach NiKunni	Posted - 2008.04.17 11:23:00 - [30] Originally by: Theron Gyrow Originally by: Rach NiKunni Originally by: Petyr Baelich I didn't say out-dps, I said on-par. The Drake I built was just above 600, and the harb was around 630something. Of course, the Drake had far more EHP, that's why I think the battle will be in my favor. You built a drake with 600dps? It is possible with maxed skills and a 3% PG implant (includes drones). A bit more reasonable value is about 550 DPS - that requires "just" AWU4, Shield Upgrades 4, level 4 spec skill, no implants. About 100 DPS of that is from drones, so it has about 450 DPS when using ECM drones. Still very good. I see. That's a little more DPS than an average drake "feels" like it has when you fight them. Just comparing it to getting shot by sentries I was under the impression that most of the drakes I've encountered were shooting at about 300dps or about 1/2 of what a half-decent Harbinger makes. Given that a Harbinger shoots harder and the Drake has a better tank then I'd give the Harbinger/Drake dual 50-50 odds on either. A lot of it will depend on pilot skills and if the Harbinger pilot gets in webbing range quick enough.

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