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Dr Huxley
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Posted - 2008.04.18 05:12:00 -
[31]
I have to say it would be fairly interesting to see ships intercepting missiles and taking the hit to protect an asset like a ship who's shields are failing.
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Faife
Blackrain Solutions Twilight Trade Cartel
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Posted - 2008.04.18 05:28:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Assassin Akah
Originally by: Shaun Klaroh Suffice to say it would be unreasonable to expect a LOS requirement for weapon systems. The server is already a little slow with everything, hence the Need For Speed initiative. (God I hate that name.)
LOS is >>> NOT <<< ressource consumming. Infinite useless CONCORD flying around is. Because it require AI... LOS DONT. Its a simple code.
this is wrong so many times over. calculating collisions is a nightmare. only thing i hated more was pathing.
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Lrd Byron
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Posted - 2008.04.18 05:29:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Assassin Akah
^---------Eeeeeeeh man, there was line of sight in WOW.
rofl, was gonna say... Evidently he has never pillar humped in the arenas.
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.04.18 05:46:00 -
[34]
LOS will not happen for one simple reason: missiles.
If you think the Concord "AI" slows the game down, imagine what the effects would be of you average caldari mission-runner (probably in a Drake or a Raven, both of them missile spammers) when he's fighting the average mission rats (which tend to love missiles as well)...
These missiles can't really be hitscan or straight-line LOS, since they can travel in rather odd trajectories at time, but unless you want to unbalance the game horribly, they need to collide with objects as well. So instead, you have to constantly check each and every one of those missiles at every "movement tick" to see if they hit anything. Congratulations - you've just added roughly 5000 (completely random number pulled out of my rear) collision calculations per on-going mission per second... |
Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.04.18 05:53:00 -
[35]
I don't think there is any other game that does not have LOS.
But I don't think it would add anything to EVE besides another needless irritation. We've got enough of them already. |
Seth Ruin
Minmatar Galactic Exploration and Mining Corporation
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Posted - 2008.04.18 06:02:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Assassin Akah
Originally by: Shaun Klaroh Suffice to say it would be unreasonable to expect a LOS requirement for weapon systems. The server is already a little slow with everything, hence the Need For Speed initiative. (God I hate that name.)
LOS is >>> NOT <<< ressource consumming. Infinite useless CONCORD flying around is. Because it require AI... LOS DONT. Its a simple code.
Pearls of wisdom from a person who has never touched a compiler.
To over-simplify collision detection, this is basically how it works: Draw a straight line from the turret in the direction it's firing. Now, test every object rendered to see if it collides. In that list of collided objects, test them to see which is in "front."
... Now do that every time a turret fires. For an entire gang. And this is neglecting the fact that non-primitive shapes are vastly more resource-demanding than primitives.
(Disclaimer: I'm only applying what I know from raytracing... though there could be a more efficient method, it all boils down to grinding out an insane number of Barycentric coordinates) |
Kanadesh
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Posted - 2008.04.18 06:16:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Seth Ruin
To over-simplify collision detection, this is basically how it works: Draw a straight line from the turret in the direction it's firing. Now, test every object rendered to see if it collides. In that list of collided objects, test them to see which is in "front."
... Now do that every time a turret fires. For an entire gang. And this is neglecting the fact that non-primitive shapes are vastly more resource-demanding than primitives.
(Disclaimer: I'm only applying what I know from raytracing... though there could be a more efficient method, it all boils down to grinding out an insane number of Barycentric coordinates)
There are data structures and schemes which help with this detection (broadphase, narrow phase, and even the classic octree). For missiles, you need to have a tick system, and do penetration testing (or even avoidance, but thats even MORE expensive). Its a huge performance penalty. And not just a few % huge, we're talking well into 20-50% CPU time.
Now granted EVE does already do a lot of collision detection for what flys as a physics engine at CCP. But its laggy enough with just ships, adding in turrets per shot is just not going to improve things
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Batolemaeus
Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.04.18 06:16:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Assassin Akah ^---- Why not make that calculation client based?
DIE! DIEDIEDIE!
In Multiplayer-gaming, do NEVER EVER trust the Client with ANYTHING.
Never, you hear me? Never!
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F'nog
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce
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Posted - 2008.04.18 06:31:00 -
[39]
We used to have LoS for missiles and it was pretty cool, except when you get mangled by your gang members because you were in front of them when they launched their torps. It was a great way to fight rats in asteroid fields, just get missile spammers into the field then blow them away at will while their missiles hit the rocks and your guns go straight through them.
But there's a reason it was removed, many actually, and lag was probably near the top.
If it could be done for all weapons, and the mechanics to make formations so gang members aren't accidentally shot, and it wouldn't add lag, then it would be a great addition. That's not gonna happen any time soon.
And calling Eve a "shooting game" is pretty silly. This isn't an FPS.
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said
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Sqalevon
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.04.18 06:46:00 -
[40]
Originally by: F'nog We used to have LoS for missiles and it was pretty cool, except when you get mangled by your gang members because you were in front of them when they launched their torps. It was a great way to fight rats in asteroid fields, just get missile spammers into the field then blow them away at will while their missiles hit the rocks and your guns go straight through them.
But there's a reason it was removed, many actually, and lag was probably near the top.
If it could be done for all weapons, and the mechanics to make formations so gang members aren't accidentally shot, and it wouldn't add lag, then it would be a great addition. That's not gonna happen any time soon.
And calling Eve a "shooting game" is pretty silly. This isn't an FPS.
Main reason IIRC was that the missile users where ****ed because their missiles ( wich have navigational computers ) would fly straight into an astroid, while they should be able to fly around it. And turrets would simply shoot trough the astroid, while they shouldnt be able to.
I personally love to see LOS and limited tracking speed / tracking field on ships, so you have to face the side of your Abbadon to the fleet your shooting like in the old naval battles.
This will also be great for interceptors if they orbit, since the side of their ship will always be pointed at the centre of their orbit ( a ship ) so tracking isnt an isue. |
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Yadee
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Posted - 2008.04.18 13:48:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Frug Yes because wow has line of sight too, right?
It does |
Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2008.04.18 13:56:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Frug Yes because wow has line of sight too, right?
Dunno, but Tabula Rasa has. It even reduces damage taken if you use cover. I'm quite an expert at running round trees while waiting for my armour to regen.
And, ffs, even the mighty Dungeon Runners the most lightweight throw away MMO ever has LOS.
And don't give me any of the "Eve is much more complicated" crap. It was a design decision not to have LOS, one that should be revisited.
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative
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Posted - 2008.04.18 14:15:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Assassin Akah whaaaat, caculating line of sight is not ressource demanding at all. I mean, make an invisible straight line from your ship to your target. And then add proper code to that.
LOL
I see a bright future for you in a manager position for a large IT company. ^_^ ---
Author of rTorrent, the BitTorrent client for real men and mice. |
Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.04.18 14:47:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: Assassin Akah whaaaat, caculating line of sight is not ressource demanding at all. I mean, make an invisible straight line from your ship to your target. And then add proper code to that.
LOL
I see a bright future for you in a manager position for a large IT company. ^_^
Pointy-haired rule #32: If I don't know how it works, it must be really simple. |
Pwett
Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2008.04.18 15:07:00 -
[45]
Neocron had line of sight, AND it was a fps MMO. AND you couldn't get into a fight with more than 40 people on a 500 person server with out single-digits fps and desynching.
Play sword of the stars, that has all the turrets fields and LOS physics you could hope for, (fantastic physics system that game has) now watch it make your top-of-the-line system crawl when you get into a fleet fight with 100 ships firing. Now add network latency. Now add 35,000 more users.
It might solve the blob though _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
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xttz
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.18 15:20:00 -
[46]
Line of sight pretty much totally breaks the security status / aggression system.
Scenario A - Line of sight fire that misses the intended target causes aggro:
Player A shoots wardecced target Player B. One shot misses and hits neutral target Player C. Concord appears and nukes Player A.
Scenario B - Line of sight fire that misses the intended target doesn't cause aggro:
Players A and B want to kill non-wardecced target Player C. They arrange themselves like so:
P-A ------- P-C ------- P-B
Players A and B now shoot at each other, hoping to hit Player C who will catch the hits. Concord doesn't do anything, Player C dies. |
F'nog
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce
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Posted - 2008.04.18 20:22:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Sqalevon
Originally by: F'nog We used to have LoS for missiles and it was pretty cool, except when you get mangled by your gang members because you were in front of them when they launched their torps. It was a great way to fight rats in asteroid fields, just get missile spammers into the field then blow them away at will while their missiles hit the rocks and your guns go straight through them.
But there's a reason it was removed, many actually, and lag was probably near the top.
If it could be done for all weapons, and the mechanics to make formations so gang members aren't accidentally shot, and it wouldn't add lag, then it would be a great addition. That's not gonna happen any time soon.
And calling Eve a "shooting game" is pretty silly. This isn't an FPS.
Main reason IIRC was that the missile users where ****ed because their missiles ( wich have navigational computers ) would fly straight into an astroid, while they should be able to fly around it. And turrets would simply shoot trough the astroid, while they shouldnt be able to.
That's why I said "near the top". But yours is the main reason, yes. |
Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.04.18 20:27:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Assassin Akah
Originally by: Shaun Klaroh Suffice to say it would be unreasonable to expect a LOS requirement for weapon systems. The server is already a little slow with everything, hence the Need For Speed initiative. (God I hate that name.)
LOS is >>> NOT <<< ressource consumming. Infinite useless CONCORD flying around is. Because it require AI... LOS DONT. Its a simple code.
So...uh...are you a programmer? |
Pwett
Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2008.04.19 00:43:00 -
[49]
duh!
SELECT * FROM `eve`.`users` WHERE `clue` > 0;
(12 ms) 0 Results Returned.
_______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
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Burnharder
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Posted - 2008.04.19 00:53:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Burnharder on 19/04/2008 00:53:39 LOS is trivial to compute on the *client*, but this MMO likes to do everything on the server and that is a whole different ball-game in terms of performance. Really, there is so much win involved in letting the client do all the interesting stuff, but it's problematic in terms of synchronising players and exploit security.
I remember the first time I undocked and warped in Eve (in Beta). I headed towards a planet with the kind of paranoia one might expect from a former Frontier/Elite player. It was actually a nice surprise to find that I went right through it rather than buried my ship within it.
I'm with you in principle, but in practice it fails. I'm sure if CCP decided to scrap both client and server and start again, they'd do things differently.
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.04.19 03:57:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/04/2008 01:58:18 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/04/2008 01:57:10
Originally by: Dirk Magnum There wouldn't have to be a line of sight requirement to fire. It's just that anything that's sitting in between your guns and your target would take the hit instead. This makes friendly fire a problem and would require better group coordination in gang or fleet fights (lag would prevent this right now.)
Buy permatank Hyperion (or any well tanked BS of choice, say, maelstorm) #1. Buy Hyperion #2. Park on jita 4-4 undock, opposite sides so you are almost guaranteed to hit incoming traffic.
Fire.
Scoop loot ;)
Can you imagine how many highsec war dec's you could ruin with a single noob alt in a MWD hauler? (need something big).
And people cry about suicide ganking ------------
Originally by: CCP Mitnal It's great being a puppetmaster
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F'nog
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce
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Posted - 2008.04.19 06:56:00 -
[52]
Originally by: techzer0
Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/04/2008 01:58:18 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/04/2008 01:57:10
Originally by: Dirk Magnum There wouldn't have to be a line of sight requirement to fire. It's just that anything that's sitting in between your guns and your target would take the hit instead. This makes friendly fire a problem and would require better group coordination in gang or fleet fights (lag would prevent this right now.)
Buy permatank Hyperion (or any well tanked BS of choice, say, maelstorm) #1. Buy Hyperion #2. Park on jita 4-4 undock, opposite sides so you are almost guaranteed to hit incoming traffic.
Fire.
Scoop loot ;)
Can you imagine how many highsec war dec's you could ruin with a single noob alt in a MWD hauler? (need something big).
And people cry about suicide ganking
And that's why explosion radius was removed from missiles, folks. Also, lag.
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari Naqam
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Posted - 2008.04.19 07:09:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Dirk Magnum Tactical environments would add a HUGE amount of win to this game. Right now though they don't have it as a priority (unless it's a secret one.)
yup
Missiles used to hit asteroids and stuff like you say, but they took out that...
would add a lot to the game imo. F1-F8 online does get boring ...
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Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2008.04.19 07:44:00 -
[54]
I like things the way they are, tbh. For them to add these so called 'tactical environments' would require the entire control system of EVE to be overhauled.
I have no real complaints with the current system apart from the usual: lag, archaic UI, etc., etc.
Originally by: Rachel Vend ... with 100% reliability in most cases ...
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.19 08:00:00 -
[55]
It would be awesome if it was implemented but it would require major recodings (missiles, anyone?) and ALOT of computing power to execute.
Yes i know i spelled COAD wrong. Stop mailing me about it
I refuse to read SHC |
Ilhicamina
Minmatar Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.19 08:15:00 -
[56]
Yeah that part of the game blows donkeys =( something as elementary as line of sight missing is a broken game. No wonder I got smoked when I took cover behind a gate during a gunfight, fully expecting that solid objects would be, well, solid.
Ok, that ends my gripe.
Just so that I am not totally negative, I often use eve as a pretty screensaver with good music, and it serves that purpose beautifully (if somewhat expensively, given the monotony of the graphics ... more colors ccp! prettier planets! Settled planets should have artificial satellites show up on the overview ... dammit stay positive!).
Ok, fly safe, hugz and kisses everyone. --- insert witty remark here --- Proud pilot of the Harmless Barnacle II |
F'nog
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce
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Posted - 2008.04.19 08:36:00 -
[57]
I'm reminded of one the missile types in EnB. It fired ballistically. Think of what this option could add to Eve. Some missiles fire straight, some ballistically. You have to choose which is better for you, much like regular vs. FoF. If LoS were reintroduced, it could add a lot to the tactics of the game.
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said
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Syril Mert
Dawn of a new Empire Pure.
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Posted - 2008.04.19 09:17:00 -
[58]
Have you guys ever been in big fights? Don't add anything that can cause any amount of lag. |
Rawr Cristina
Caldari Naqam
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Posted - 2008.04.19 09:33:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Syril Mert Have you guys ever been in big fights? Don't add anything that can cause any amount of lag.
EVE isn't just about 200v200 blobwars you know |
Lucia Warbler
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.04.19 11:28:00 -
[60]
Assuming it was possible performance-wise, why not make it that intercepted beam, charge, missile, whatever does 0 damage and doesn't count as an aggro?
I would love this feature... it would make the belts a whole lot more interesting.
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