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Is it me or theres is no line of sight?

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Sharp Feather	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:31:00 - [1] Edited by: Sharp Feather on 18/04/2008 01:32:12 Edited by: Sharp Feather on 18/04/2008 01:32:06 Hello, Im quite new to the game and if any of the following sentences are a little wierd, well I speak french originaly. Anyway, that being said, lets get straight to the point; No line of sight?! WTH?! I mean in a shooting game...no line of sight...? And I see you all coming; I call this a shooting game because to fight you need to use ranged weapons and the action of using ranged weapons is >shooting<. TEHE! Anyway, so yeah, I shot rats through an asteroide. Thats kind of lame, since we cant use that as a tactical strategie in a game oriented on ranged combat. Anyway lets the flame begin!
Shaun Klaroh Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:33:00 - [2] It's been like that for a good while. Imagine trying to fight in an asteroid belt and the amount of work it would take for the server to have to calculate round impedances. ----- Quote: "Are these people prisoners?" Arkhan asked. "Not at all," Melak replied. "They're free to run and get shot any time they like."
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:33:00 - [3] Tactical environments would add a HUGE amount of win to this game. Right now though they don't have it as a priority (unless it's a secret one.)
Quelque Chose New Eden Roller Disco Supply	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:35:00 - [4] Edited by: Quelque Chose on 18/04/2008 01:37:41 On the small scale I agree it dumbs down the combat. OTOH in gigantic cap fleet battles where both graphic and server lag are a huge problem I think it's probably a necessary simplification. Besides, this is after all a MMORPG: it's a genre which isn't exactly noted for the depth of its combat systems. edit Tactical depth anyway. Statistically Eve's combat system is downright byzantine. ___________________________________________
Shaun Klaroh Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:37:00 - [5] Originally by: Quelque Chose Besides, this is after all a MMORPG: it's a genre which isn't exactly noted for the depth of its combat systems. And even then EvE's is probably one of the most complex systems anyway. ----- Quote: "Are these people prisoners?" Arkhan asked. "Not at all," Melak replied. "They're free to run and get shot any time they like."
Quelque Chose New Eden Roller Disco Supply	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:40:00 - [6] Originally by: Shaun Klaroh Originally by: Quelque Chose Besides, this is after all a MMORPG: it's a genre which isn't exactly noted for the depth of its combat systems. And even then EvE's is probably one of the most complex systems anyway. Yeah, see edit: I spoke a little too quickly. The actual activity of combat is as plain- jane as any of the rest of them, but the kinds of calculations you have to do before the shooting starts are pretty meaty I must admit. ___________________________________________
Assassin Akah	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:40:00 - [7] whaaaat, caculating line of sight is not ressource demanding at all. I mean, make an invisible straight line from your ship to your target. And then add proper code to that.
Frug Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:43:00 - [8] Yes because wow has line of sight too, right? - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Shaun Klaroh Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:45:00 - [9] You try doing that with 8 or so weapon systems per ship in a combat situation with more than 20 individual ships shooting at each other, over more than 3000 star systems. ----- Quote: "Are these people prisoners?" Arkhan asked. "Not at all," Melak replied. "They're free to run and get shot any time they like."
Assassin Akah	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:46:00 - [10] WoW, WTH have WoW to do with anything here? Buuuuut anyway, WoW has a half-in LOS. You couldnt shoot through PROPS but you could through landscape wich was lame. Since theres no landscape in this game, I bet including LOS to props only would be really easy.
Shaun Klaroh Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:50:00 - [11] Suffice to say it would be unreasonable to expect a LOS requirement for weapon systems. The server is already a little slow with everything, hence the Need For Speed initiative. (God I hate that name.)
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:52:00 - [12] There wouldn't have to be a line of sight requirement to fire. It's just that anything that's sitting in between your guns and your target would take the hit instead. This makes friendly fire a problem and would require better group coordination in gang or fleet fights (lag would prevent this right now.)
Frug Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:54:00 - [13] Originally by: Assassin Akah Edited by: Assassin Akah on 18/04/2008 01:47:07 WoW, WTH have WoW to do with anything here? Buuuuut anyway, WoW has a half-in LOS. You couldnt shoot through PROPS but you could through landscape wich was lame. Since theres no landscape in this game, I bet including LOS to props only would be really easy. LOL @ SHANsomething; Man, all weapons are fired from the same point in space... Your ship; Thats one line of sight mate. Wow is relevent because the reason they left line of sight out of it is the same reason it's not in eve. It's also the same reason almost every MMO leaves it out. In a fleet battle with 20 guys shooting at 20 other guys, the lag caused by calculating LOS is not worth it. The game already lags and this would make it worse.
Assassin Akah	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:56:00 - [14] ^---------Eeeeeeeh man, there was line of sight in WOW.
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:57:00 - [15] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/04/2008 01:58:18 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/04/2008 01:57:10 Originally by: Dirk Magnum There wouldn't have to be a line of sight requirement to fire. It's just that anything that's sitting in between your guns and your target would take the hit instead. This makes friendly fire a problem and would require better group coordination in gang or fleet fights (lag would prevent this right now.) Buy permatank Hyperion (or any well tanked BS of choice, say, maelstorm) #1. Buy Hyperion #2. Park on jita 4-4 undock, opposite sides so you are almost guaranteed to hit incoming traffic. Fire. Scoop loot ;)
Assassin Akah	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:57:00 - [16] Originally by: Dirk Magnum There wouldn't have to be a line of sight requirement to fire. It's just that anything that's sitting in between your guns and your target would take the hit instead. This makes friendly fire a problem and would require better group coordination in gang or fleet fights (lag would prevent this right now.) OMG! You are totaly right, that idea is >>>>>>>>> over mine.
Assassin Akah	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:59:00 - [17] Originally by: Shaun Klaroh Suffice to say it would be unreasonable to expect a LOS requirement for weapon systems. The server is already a little slow with everything, hence the Need For Speed initiative. (God I hate that name.) LOS is >>> NOT <<< ressource consumming. Infinite useless CONCORD flying around is. Because it require AI... LOS DONT. Its a simple code.
Frug Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.04.18 02:01:00 - [18] Originally by: Assassin Akah ^---------Eeeeeeeh man, there was line of sight in WOW. I'm proud not to know wtf i'm talking about. Never mind.
Frug Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.04.18 02:02:00 - [19] Originally by: Assassin Akah Originally by: Shaun Klaroh Suffice to say it would be unreasonable to expect a LOS requirement for weapon systems. The server is already a little slow with everything, hence the Need For Speed initiative. (God I hate that name.) LOS is >>> NOT <<< ressource consumming. Infinite useless CONCORD flying around is. Because it require AI... LOS DONT. Its a simple code. It's a good thing their AI consists of "orbit" and nothing else. I think you're wrong about the requirements LOS code would add. Eve, according to a dev, once did have LOS and they removed it.
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.04.18 02:03:00 - [20] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/04/2008 01:58:18 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/04/2008 01:57:10 Originally by: Dirk Magnum There wouldn't have to be a line of sight requirement to fire. It's just that anything that's sitting in between your guns and your target would take the hit instead. This makes friendly fire a problem and would require better group coordination in gang or fleet fights (lag would prevent this right now.) Buy permatank Hyperion (or any well tanked BS of choice, say, maelstorm) #1. Buy Hyperion #2. Park on jita 4-4 undock, opposite sides so you are almost guaranteed to hit incoming traffic. Fire. Scoop loot ;) Yeah that would be an issue that would have to be addressed for sure. I guess you could always have a warning window or something in High Sec when a neutral is sitting in your line of sight. In which case getting CONCORD'd (or maybe just faction policed) would be the result for ingnoring the message. Now of course that wouldn't stop someone from flying into your line of sight once you've engaged something legitimately... maybe code it so that the system knows if you put yourself into the line of fire, versus if the line of fire was initially directed through your position.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.18 02:07:00 - [21] There's no need for line of sight. With the distances and ship sizes we have it's not very often that line of sight is an issue. And it's not like it matters, anyway.
Quelque Chose New Eden Roller Disco Supply	Posted - 2008.04.18 02:07:00 - [22] Originally by: Assassin Akah LOS is >>> NOT <<< ressource consumming. Infinite useless CONCORD flying around is. Because it require AI... LOS DONT. Its a simple code. You ever play with the Unreal Editor? Collision calculations can constitute a substantial drain on the processor, especially when things start moving around. That's why most FPS games determine hits based on a cube or at most a low- poly cylinder that surrounds the playermodel instead of more complex locational damage systems or (at the most extreme) per- poly hit detection. On the individual level it's not that much work to determine whether an asteroid is in the way or not but when you start making many thousands of such calculations per node per minute it starts to stack up... and people already complain pretty loudly about lag. ___________________________________________
Assassin Akah	Posted - 2008.04.18 02:13:00 - [23] ^---- Why not make that calculation client based? Anyway, Im going to sleep,working early, so yeah, keep it coming, I will read it all tomorrow.
Neth'Rae Gallente Neth's Workshop	Posted - 2008.04.18 02:13:00 - [24] Edited by: Neth''Rae on 18/04/2008 02:13:42 Originally by: Quelque Chose Originally by: Assassin Akah LOS is >>> NOT <<< ressource consumming. Infinite useless CONCORD flying around is. Because it require AI... LOS DONT. Its a simple code. You ever play with the Unreal Editor? Collision calculations can constitute a substantial drain on the processor, especially when things start moving around. That's why most FPS games determine hits based on a cube or at most a low- poly cylinder that surrounds the playermodel instead of more complex locational damage systems or (at the most extreme) per- poly hit detection. On the individual level it's not that much work to determine whether an asteroid is in the way or not but when you start making many thousands of such calculations per node per minute it starts to stack up... and people already complain pretty loudly about lag. Yeah, One calculation for each volley from each turret.. xD But we shouldn't really feed the trolls.. Request signatures at EVE-GFX
Quelque Chose New Eden Roller Disco Supply	Posted - 2008.04.18 02:16:00 - [25] Originally by: Assassin Akah ^---- Why not make that calculation client based? Anyway, Im going to sleep,working early, so yeah, keep it coming, I will read it all tomorrow. Clientside hit detection is the Great Satan. ___________________________________________
Assassin Akah	Posted - 2008.04.18 02:17:00 - [26] Edited by: Assassin Akah on 18/04/2008 02:18:51 One last post before going to bed. To the guy there saying Im a troll. Its a lot easier, IMO, to calculate a little burts of maximum 8 bullets per ship then, lets say, a machine gun in any other FPS games. PS: A little last thing to frug or something; Yes their Ai consist of orbiting, but you know when they get in colision to each others, with players controlled ship or with the gates... Thats even more ressoures wasted.
Quelque Chose New Eden Roller Disco Supply	Posted - 2008.04.18 02:18:00 - [27] Originally by: Assassin Akah One last post before going to bed. To the guy there saying Im a troll. Its a lot easier, IMO, to calculate a little burts of maximum 8 bullets per ship then, lets say, a machine gun in any other FPS games. Most games don't calculate each bullet though. Most machineguns are hitscan rather than projectile- based and the game simply calculates the duration of the hit and applies an appropriate factor of the weapon's dps. ___________________________________________
Assassin Akah	Posted - 2008.04.18 02:20:00 - [28] Aaaaaaaanyway, all that rablabla to say; its doable.
Shaun Klaroh Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD	Posted - 2008.04.18 02:20:00 - [29] If ANY calculation that would result in a change in a result (especially combat) were client-side, you would see a new breed of cheaters on Eve. ----- Quote: "Are these people prisoners?" Arkhan asked. "Not at all," Melak replied. "They're free to run and get shot any time they like."
Count Bolton	Posted - 2008.04.18 04:13:00 - [30] EVE did use to have LOS in beta. This is what happened: Guy A shoots at Guy B, Guy A desyncs. Guy B flies behind station, Guy A still sees Guy B in front of him. Guy A shoots at Guy B, who appears to be in front of him. "Your 250mm Railgun failed to activate because Target(Guy B) is no longer with your line of sight." "Your 250mm Railgun failed to activate because Target(Guy B) is no longer with your line of sight." "Your 250mm Railgun failed to activate because Target(Guy B) is no longer with your line of sight." "Your 250mm Railgun failed to activate because Target(Guy B) is no longer with your line of sight." "Your 250mm Railgun failed to activate because Target(Guy B) is no longer with your line of sight." "Your 250mm Railgun failed to activate because Target(Guy B) is no longer with your line of sight." Guy A dies. The end.
Dr Huxley	Posted - 2008.04.18 05:12:00 - [31] I have to say it would be fairly interesting to see ships intercepting missiles and taking the hit to protect an asset like a ship who's shields are failing.
Faife Blackrain Solutions Twilight Trade Cartel	Posted - 2008.04.18 05:28:00 - [32] Originally by: Assassin Akah Originally by: Shaun Klaroh Suffice to say it would be unreasonable to expect a LOS requirement for weapon systems. The server is already a little slow with everything, hence the Need For Speed initiative. (God I hate that name.) LOS is >>> NOT <<< ressource consumming. Infinite useless CONCORD flying around is. Because it require AI... LOS DONT. Its a simple code. this is wrong so many times over. calculating collisions is a nightmare. only thing i hated more was pathing.
Lrd Byron	Posted - 2008.04.18 05:29:00 - [33] Originally by: Assassin Akah ^---------Eeeeeeeh man, there was line of sight in WOW. rofl, was gonna say... Evidently he has never pillar humped in the arenas.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.04.18 05:46:00 - [34] LOS will not happen for one simple reason: missiles. If you think the Concord "AI" slows the game down, imagine what the effects would be of you average caldari mission-runner (probably in a Drake or a Raven, both of them missile spammers) when he's fighting the average mission rats (which tend to love missiles as well)... These missiles can't really be hitscan or straight-line LOS, since they can travel in rather odd trajectories at time, but unless you want to unbalance the game horribly, they need to collide with objects as well. So instead, you have to constantly check each and every one of those missiles at every "movement tick" to see if they hit anything. Congratulations - you've just added roughly 5000 (completely random number pulled out of my rear) collision calculations per on-going mission per second...
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2008.04.18 05:53:00 - [35] I don't think there is any other game that does not have LOS. But I don't think it would add anything to EVE besides another needless irritation. We've got enough of them already.
Seth Ruin Minmatar Galactic Exploration and Mining Corporation	Posted - 2008.04.18 06:02:00 - [36] Originally by: Assassin Akah Originally by: Shaun Klaroh Suffice to say it would be unreasonable to expect a LOS requirement for weapon systems. The server is already a little slow with everything, hence the Need For Speed initiative. (God I hate that name.) LOS is >>> NOT <<< ressource consumming. Infinite useless CONCORD flying around is. Because it require AI... LOS DONT. Its a simple code. Pearls of wisdom from a person who has never touched a compiler. To over-simplify collision detection, this is basically how it works: Draw a straight line from the turret in the direction it's firing. Now, test every object rendered to see if it collides. In that list of collided objects, test them to see which is in "front." ... Now do that every time a turret fires. For an entire gang. And this is neglecting the fact that non-primitive shapes are vastly more resource-demanding than primitives. (Disclaimer: I'm only applying what I know from raytracing... though there could be a more efficient method, it all boils down to grinding out an insane number of Barycentric coordinates)
Kanadesh	Posted - 2008.04.18 06:16:00 - [37] Originally by: Seth Ruin To over-simplify collision detection, this is basically how it works: Draw a straight line from the turret in the direction it's firing. Now, test every object rendered to see if it collides. In that list of collided objects, test them to see which is in "front." ... Now do that every time a turret fires. For an entire gang. And this is neglecting the fact that non-primitive shapes are vastly more resource-demanding than primitives. (Disclaimer: I'm only applying what I know from raytracing... though there could be a more efficient method, it all boils down to grinding out an insane number of Barycentric coordinates) There are data structures and schemes which help with this detection (broadphase, narrow phase, and even the classic octree). For missiles, you need to have a tick system, and do penetration testing (or even avoidance, but thats even MORE expensive). Its a huge performance penalty. And not just a few % huge, we're talking well into 20-50% CPU time. Now granted EVE does already do a lot of collision detection for what flys as a physics engine at CCP. But its laggy enough with just ships, adding in turrets per shot is just not going to improve things
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.04.18 06:16:00 - [38] Originally by: Assassin Akah ^---- Why not make that calculation client based? DIE! DIEDIEDIE! In Multiplayer-gaming, do NEVER EVER trust the Client with ANYTHING. Never, you hear me? Never!
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2008.04.18 06:31:00 - [39] We used to have LoS for missiles and it was pretty cool, except when you get mangled by your gang members because you were in front of them when they launched their torps. It was a great way to fight rats in asteroid fields, just get missile spammers into the field then blow them away at will while their missiles hit the rocks and your guns go straight through them. But there's a reason it was removed, many actually, and lag was probably near the top. If it could be done for all weapons, and the mechanics to make formations so gang members aren't accidentally shot, and it wouldn't add lag, then it would be a great addition. That's not gonna happen any time soon. And calling Eve a "shooting game" is pretty silly. This isn't an FPS. Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said
Sqalevon Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.04.18 06:46:00 - [40] Originally by: F'nog We used to have LoS for missiles and it was pretty cool, except when you get mangled by your gang members because you were in front of them when they launched their torps. It was a great way to fight rats in asteroid fields, just get missile spammers into the field then blow them away at will while their missiles hit the rocks and your guns go straight through them. But there's a reason it was removed, many actually, and lag was probably near the top. If it could be done for all weapons, and the mechanics to make formations so gang members aren't accidentally shot, and it wouldn't add lag, then it would be a great addition. That's not gonna happen any time soon. And calling Eve a "shooting game" is pretty silly. This isn't an FPS. Main reason IIRC was that the missile users where ****ed because their missiles ( wich have navigational computers ) would fly straight into an astroid, while they should be able to fly around it. And turrets would simply shoot trough the astroid, while they shouldnt be able to. I personally love to see LOS and limited tracking speed / tracking field on ships, so you have to face the side of your Abbadon to the fleet your shooting like in the old naval battles. This will also be great for interceptors if they orbit, since the side of their ship will always be pointed at the centre of their orbit ( a ship ) so tracking isnt an isue.
Yadee	Posted - 2008.04.18 13:48:00 - [41] Originally by: Frug Yes because wow has line of sight too, right? It does
Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation	Posted - 2008.04.18 13:56:00 - [42] Originally by: Frug Yes because wow has line of sight too, right? Dunno, but Tabula Rasa has. It even reduces damage taken if you use cover. I'm quite an expert at running round trees while waiting for my armour to regen. And, ffs, even the mighty Dungeon Runners the most lightweight throw away MMO ever has LOS. And don't give me any of the "Eve is much more complicated" crap. It was a design decision not to have LOS, one that should be revisited.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2008.04.18 14:15:00 - [43] Originally by: Assassin Akah whaaaat, caculating line of sight is not ressource demanding at all. I mean, make an invisible straight line from your ship to your target. And then add proper code to that. LOL I see a bright future for you in a manager position for a large IT company. ^_^ --- Author of rTorrent, the BitTorrent client for real men and mice.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.04.18 14:47:00 - [44] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: Assassin Akah whaaaat, caculating line of sight is not ressource demanding at all. I mean, make an invisible straight line from your ship to your target. And then add proper code to that. LOL I see a bright future for you in a manager position for a large IT company. ^_^ Pointy-haired rule #32: If I don't know how it works, it must be really simple.
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.04.18 15:07:00 - [45] Neocron had line of sight, AND it was a fps MMO. AND you couldn't get into a fight with more than 40 people on a 500 person server with out single-digits fps and desynching. Play sword of the stars, that has all the turrets fields and LOS physics you could hope for, (fantastic physics system that game has) now watch it make your top-of-the-line system crawl when you get into a fleet fight with 100 ships firing. Now add network latency. Now add 35,000 more users. It might solve the blob though _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
xttz GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.18 15:20:00 - [46] Line of sight pretty much totally breaks the security status / aggression system. Scenario A - Line of sight fire that misses the intended target causes aggro: Player A shoots wardecced target Player B. One shot misses and hits neutral target Player C. Concord appears and nukes Player A. Scenario B - Line of sight fire that misses the intended target doesn't cause aggro: Players A and B want to kill non-wardecced target Player C. They arrange themselves like so: P-A ------- P-C ------- P-B Players A and B now shoot at each other, hoping to hit Player C who will catch the hits. Concord doesn't do anything, Player C dies.
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2008.04.18 20:22:00 - [47] Originally by: Sqalevon Originally by: F'nog We used to have LoS for missiles and it was pretty cool, except when you get mangled by your gang members because you were in front of them when they launched their torps. It was a great way to fight rats in asteroid fields, just get missile spammers into the field then blow them away at will while their missiles hit the rocks and your guns go straight through them. But there's a reason it was removed, many actually, and lag was probably near the top. If it could be done for all weapons, and the mechanics to make formations so gang members aren't accidentally shot, and it wouldn't add lag, then it would be a great addition. That's not gonna happen any time soon. And calling Eve a "shooting game" is pretty silly. This isn't an FPS. Main reason IIRC was that the missile users where ****ed because their missiles ( wich have navigational computers ) would fly straight into an astroid, while they should be able to fly around it. And turrets would simply shoot trough the astroid, while they shouldnt be able to. That's why I said "near the top". But yours is the main reason, yes.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.18 20:27:00 - [48] Originally by: Assassin Akah Originally by: Shaun Klaroh Suffice to say it would be unreasonable to expect a LOS requirement for weapon systems. The server is already a little slow with everything, hence the Need For Speed initiative. (God I hate that name.) LOS is >>> NOT <<< ressource consumming. Infinite useless CONCORD flying around is. Because it require AI... LOS DONT. Its a simple code. So...uh...are you a programmer?
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.04.19 00:43:00 - [49] duh! SELECT * FROM `eve`.`users` WHERE `clue` > 0; (12 ms) 0 Results Returned. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Burnharder	Posted - 2008.04.19 00:53:00 - [50] Edited by: Burnharder on 19/04/2008 00:53:39 LOS is trivial to compute on the client, but this MMO likes to do everything on the server and that is a whole different ball-game in terms of performance. Really, there is so much win involved in letting the client do all the interesting stuff, but it's problematic in terms of synchronising players and exploit security. I remember the first time I undocked and warped in Eve (in Beta). I headed towards a planet with the kind of paranoia one might expect from a former Frontier/Elite player. It was actually a nice surprise to find that I went right through it rather than buried my ship within it. I'm with you in principle, but in practice it fails. I'm sure if CCP decided to scrap both client and server and start again, they'd do things differently.
techzer0 IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.04.19 03:57:00 - [51] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/04/2008 01:58:18 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/04/2008 01:57:10 Originally by: Dirk Magnum There wouldn't have to be a line of sight requirement to fire. It's just that anything that's sitting in between your guns and your target would take the hit instead. This makes friendly fire a problem and would require better group coordination in gang or fleet fights (lag would prevent this right now.) Buy permatank Hyperion (or any well tanked BS of choice, say, maelstorm) #1. Buy Hyperion #2. Park on jita 4-4 undock, opposite sides so you are almost guaranteed to hit incoming traffic. Fire. Scoop loot ;) Can you imagine how many highsec war dec's you could ruin with a single noob alt in a MWD hauler? (need something big). And people cry about suicide ganking ------------ Originally by: CCP Mitnal It's great being a puppetmaster
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2008.04.19 06:56:00 - [52] Originally by: techzer0 Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/04/2008 01:58:18 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/04/2008 01:57:10 Originally by: Dirk Magnum There wouldn't have to be a line of sight requirement to fire. It's just that anything that's sitting in between your guns and your target would take the hit instead. This makes friendly fire a problem and would require better group coordination in gang or fleet fights (lag would prevent this right now.) Buy permatank Hyperion (or any well tanked BS of choice, say, maelstorm) #1. Buy Hyperion #2. Park on jita 4-4 undock, opposite sides so you are almost guaranteed to hit incoming traffic. Fire. Scoop loot ;) Can you imagine how many highsec war dec's you could ruin with a single noob alt in a MWD hauler? (need something big). And people cry about suicide ganking And that's why explosion radius was removed from missiles, folks. Also, lag. Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said
Rawr Cristina Caldari Naqam	Posted - 2008.04.19 07:09:00 - [53] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Tactical environments would add a HUGE amount of win to this game. Right now though they don't have it as a priority (unless it's a secret one.) yup Missiles used to hit asteroids and stuff like you say, but they took out that... would add a lot to the game imo. F1-F8 online does get boring ...
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2008.04.19 07:44:00 - [54] I like things the way they are, tbh. For them to add these so called 'tactical environments' would require the entire control system of EVE to be overhauled. I have no real complaints with the current system apart from the usual: lag, archaic UI, etc., etc. Originally by: Rachel Vend ... with 100% reliability in most cases ...
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.19 08:00:00 - [55] It would be awesome if it was implemented but it would require major recodings (missiles, anyone?) and ALOT of computing power to execute. Yes i know i spelled COAD wrong. Stop mailing me about it I refuse to read SHC
Ilhicamina Minmatar Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.04.19 08:15:00 - [56] Yeah that part of the game blows donkeys =( something as elementary as line of sight missing is a broken game. No wonder I got smoked when I took cover behind a gate during a gunfight, fully expecting that solid objects would be, well, solid. Ok, that ends my gripe. Just so that I am not totally negative, I often use eve as a pretty screensaver with good music, and it serves that purpose beautifully (if somewhat expensively, given the monotony of the graphics ... more colors ccp! prettier planets! Settled planets should have artificial satellites show up on the overview ... dammit stay positive!). Ok, fly safe, hugz and kisses everyone. --- insert witty remark here --- Proud pilot of the Harmless Barnacle II
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2008.04.19 08:36:00 - [57] I'm reminded of one the missile types in EnB. It fired ballistically. Think of what this option could add to Eve. Some missiles fire straight, some ballistically. You have to choose which is better for you, much like regular vs. FoF. If LoS were reintroduced, it could add a lot to the tactics of the game. Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said
Syril Mert Dawn of a new Empire Pure.	Posted - 2008.04.19 09:17:00 - [58] Have you guys ever been in big fights? Don't add anything that can cause any amount of lag.
Rawr Cristina Caldari Naqam	Posted - 2008.04.19 09:33:00 - [59] Originally by: Syril Mert Have you guys ever been in big fights? Don't add anything that can cause any amount of lag. EVE isn't just about 200v200 blobwars you know
Lucia Warbler Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.04.19 11:28:00 - [60] Assuming it was possible performance-wise, why not make it that intercepted beam, charge, missile, whatever does 0 damage and doesn't count as an aggro? I would love this feature... it would make the belts a whole lot more interesting.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.04.19 11:51:00 - [61] People that think this is computational havey are very wrong. The isse is somehow CCP made the game such as tasks that are computationally chep might be stupdly expenive intheir servers. Liek the check for gang bonuses on all fleet members. That is somethign any good implementation on C or C++ actign upon data in memory shoudl be able to do in a few NANO seconds. Of course that in a well implemented system. Just check supreme commander a strategy game where all the calculations of impacts line of sight surpass very likely even ALL calculations on physics that whole trinity miht be doing (you have waaaay more than 40k entities at any time durign a big battle there). Stil remains that for some reason EVE server code is not very friendly to perfromance it seems. Maybe due to other technical issues that arise when dealign with 40k network connections and the stupid ammont of hardware interrupts that shoudl be generated by so many packages arriving :P ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.04.19 12:04:00 - [62] I hope it's something that at least gets a re-evaluation each time the server technology improves. It would add a lot to the game (mostly at the smaller scale) if it could be implemented. Missile LOS in Castor was hilarious, especially when missiles always came out of the forward facing tubes. I'll never forget my first corp mining op with some of the guys in Moa's with heavy missiles.... "Don't worry guys I've got these rats" WHOOOOOSH BOOM "OOWWWWW!!! DUDE WTF?!" -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.04.19 14:49:00 - [63] Originally by: Kagura Nikon People that think this is computational havey are very wrong. The isse is somehow CCP made the game such as tasks that are computationally chep might be stupdly expenive intheir servers. Liek the check for gang bonuses on all fleet members. That is somethign any good implementation on C or C++ actign upon data in memory shoudl be able to do in a few NANO seconds. Of course that in a well implemented system. Yes, it is very easy, obviously - that is why companies such as Epic, iD and Valve all have to use a wide assortment of map-specific tricks - all based on vastly simplifying the collision geometry of objects - to get their engines to run at workable speeds, even when having to deal with far fewer, and far less dynamic, objects than you'll see in EVE... For the record, Supreme commander isn't very complex in this regard either. Now shush, grown-ups are talking.
Karentaki Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.04.19 14:59:00 - [64] Line of Sight calculations (and any other collision calculations for that matter) are very CPU intensive. Trust me, you don't want LOS in EVE. I've recently been working on a LOS and physics engine in flash, and the amount of code that's needed just for 2D calculations is huge compared to relatively simple NPC AI. Now, try running those calculations in the middle of a 200 man fleet op and see if you can actually do anything. ========== This is a signature, a cunning ploy used by forum warriors!
Ralara Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.19 16:03:00 - [65] Originally by: Rawr Cristina Originally by: Syril Mert Have you guys ever been in big fights? Don't add anything that can cause any amount of lag. EVE isn't just about 200v200 blobwars you know No, it's not. However, it's advertised as such, and the promotional videos make use of this. To do what the OP describes would make fleet fights impossible using he current servers and user PCs. It's also make mission runners (that's "the rest of you") quit :D so no. -- Ralara / Ralarina VOTE FOR RALARA AS YOUR CSM REPRESENTATIVE, AND RECEIVE A COUPON FOR A 10% DISCOUNT AT WORLD OF WARCRAFT. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=74811

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