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Is it me or theres is no line of sight?

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Sharp Feather	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:31:00 - [1] Edited by: Sharp Feather on 18/04/2008 01:32:12 Edited by: Sharp Feather on 18/04/2008 01:32:06 Hello, Im quite new to the game and if any of the following sentences are a little wierd, well I speak french originaly. Anyway, that being said, lets get straight to the point; No line of sight?! WTH?! I mean in a shooting game...no line of sight...? And I see you all coming; I call this a shooting game because to fight you need to use ranged weapons and the action of using ranged weapons is >shooting<. TEHE! Anyway, so yeah, I shot rats through an asteroide. Thats kind of lame, since we cant use that as a tactical strategie in a game oriented on ranged combat. Anyway lets the flame begin!
Shaun Klaroh Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:33:00 - [2] It's been like that for a good while. Imagine trying to fight in an asteroid belt and the amount of work it would take for the server to have to calculate round impedances. ----- Quote: "Are these people prisoners?" Arkhan asked. "Not at all," Melak replied. "They're free to run and get shot any time they like."
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:33:00 - [3] Tactical environments would add a HUGE amount of win to this game. Right now though they don't have it as a priority (unless it's a secret one.)
Quelque Chose New Eden Roller Disco Supply	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:35:00 - [4] Edited by: Quelque Chose on 18/04/2008 01:37:41 On the small scale I agree it dumbs down the combat. OTOH in gigantic cap fleet battles where both graphic and server lag are a huge problem I think it's probably a necessary simplification. Besides, this is after all a MMORPG: it's a genre which isn't exactly noted for the depth of its combat systems. edit Tactical depth anyway. Statistically Eve's combat system is downright byzantine. ___________________________________________
Shaun Klaroh Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:37:00 - [5] Originally by: Quelque Chose Besides, this is after all a MMORPG: it's a genre which isn't exactly noted for the depth of its combat systems. And even then EvE's is probably one of the most complex systems anyway. ----- Quote: "Are these people prisoners?" Arkhan asked. "Not at all," Melak replied. "They're free to run and get shot any time they like."
Quelque Chose New Eden Roller Disco Supply	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:40:00 - [6] Originally by: Shaun Klaroh Originally by: Quelque Chose Besides, this is after all a MMORPG: it's a genre which isn't exactly noted for the depth of its combat systems. And even then EvE's is probably one of the most complex systems anyway. Yeah, see edit: I spoke a little too quickly. The actual activity of combat is as plain- jane as any of the rest of them, but the kinds of calculations you have to do before the shooting starts are pretty meaty I must admit. ___________________________________________
Assassin Akah	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:40:00 - [7] whaaaat, caculating line of sight is not ressource demanding at all. I mean, make an invisible straight line from your ship to your target. And then add proper code to that.
Frug Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:43:00 - [8] Yes because wow has line of sight too, right? - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Shaun Klaroh Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:45:00 - [9] You try doing that with 8 or so weapon systems per ship in a combat situation with more than 20 individual ships shooting at each other, over more than 3000 star systems. ----- Quote: "Are these people prisoners?" Arkhan asked. "Not at all," Melak replied. "They're free to run and get shot any time they like."
Assassin Akah	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:46:00 - [10] WoW, WTH have WoW to do with anything here? Buuuuut anyway, WoW has a half-in LOS. You couldnt shoot through PROPS but you could through landscape wich was lame. Since theres no landscape in this game, I bet including LOS to props only would be really easy.
Shaun Klaroh Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:50:00 - [11] Suffice to say it would be unreasonable to expect a LOS requirement for weapon systems. The server is already a little slow with everything, hence the Need For Speed initiative. (God I hate that name.)
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:52:00 - [12] There wouldn't have to be a line of sight requirement to fire. It's just that anything that's sitting in between your guns and your target would take the hit instead. This makes friendly fire a problem and would require better group coordination in gang or fleet fights (lag would prevent this right now.)
Frug Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:54:00 - [13] Originally by: Assassin Akah Edited by: Assassin Akah on 18/04/2008 01:47:07 WoW, WTH have WoW to do with anything here? Buuuuut anyway, WoW has a half-in LOS. You couldnt shoot through PROPS but you could through landscape wich was lame. Since theres no landscape in this game, I bet including LOS to props only would be really easy. LOL @ SHANsomething; Man, all weapons are fired from the same point in space... Your ship; Thats one line of sight mate. Wow is relevent because the reason they left line of sight out of it is the same reason it's not in eve. It's also the same reason almost every MMO leaves it out. In a fleet battle with 20 guys shooting at 20 other guys, the lag caused by calculating LOS is not worth it. The game already lags and this would make it worse.
Assassin Akah	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:56:00 - [14] ^---------Eeeeeeeh man, there was line of sight in WOW.
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:57:00 - [15] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/04/2008 01:58:18 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/04/2008 01:57:10 Originally by: Dirk Magnum There wouldn't have to be a line of sight requirement to fire. It's just that anything that's sitting in between your guns and your target would take the hit instead. This makes friendly fire a problem and would require better group coordination in gang or fleet fights (lag would prevent this right now.) Buy permatank Hyperion (or any well tanked BS of choice, say, maelstorm) #1. Buy Hyperion #2. Park on jita 4-4 undock, opposite sides so you are almost guaranteed to hit incoming traffic. Fire. Scoop loot ;)
Assassin Akah	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:57:00 - [16] Originally by: Dirk Magnum There wouldn't have to be a line of sight requirement to fire. It's just that anything that's sitting in between your guns and your target would take the hit instead. This makes friendly fire a problem and would require better group coordination in gang or fleet fights (lag would prevent this right now.) OMG! You are totaly right, that idea is >>>>>>>>> over mine.
Assassin Akah	Posted - 2008.04.18 01:59:00 - [17] Originally by: Shaun Klaroh Suffice to say it would be unreasonable to expect a LOS requirement for weapon systems. The server is already a little slow with everything, hence the Need For Speed initiative. (God I hate that name.) LOS is >>> NOT <<< ressource consumming. Infinite useless CONCORD flying around is. Because it require AI... LOS DONT. Its a simple code.
Frug Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.04.18 02:01:00 - [18] Originally by: Assassin Akah ^---------Eeeeeeeh man, there was line of sight in WOW. I'm proud not to know wtf i'm talking about. Never mind.
Frug Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.04.18 02:02:00 - [19] Originally by: Assassin Akah Originally by: Shaun Klaroh Suffice to say it would be unreasonable to expect a LOS requirement for weapon systems. The server is already a little slow with everything, hence the Need For Speed initiative. (God I hate that name.) LOS is >>> NOT <<< ressource consumming. Infinite useless CONCORD flying around is. Because it require AI... LOS DONT. Its a simple code. It's a good thing their AI consists of "orbit" and nothing else. I think you're wrong about the requirements LOS code would add. Eve, according to a dev, once did have LOS and they removed it.
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.04.18 02:03:00 - [20] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/04/2008 01:58:18 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/04/2008 01:57:10 Originally by: Dirk Magnum There wouldn't have to be a line of sight requirement to fire. It's just that anything that's sitting in between your guns and your target would take the hit instead. This makes friendly fire a problem and would require better group coordination in gang or fleet fights (lag would prevent this right now.) Buy permatank Hyperion (or any well tanked BS of choice, say, maelstorm) #1. Buy Hyperion #2. Park on jita 4-4 undock, opposite sides so you are almost guaranteed to hit incoming traffic. Fire. Scoop loot ;) Yeah that would be an issue that would have to be addressed for sure. I guess you could always have a warning window or something in High Sec when a neutral is sitting in your line of sight. In which case getting CONCORD'd (or maybe just faction policed) would be the result for ingnoring the message. Now of course that wouldn't stop someone from flying into your line of sight once you've engaged something legitimately... maybe code it so that the system knows if you put yourself into the line of fire, versus if the line of fire was initially directed through your position.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.18 02:07:00 - [21] There's no need for line of sight. With the distances and ship sizes we have it's not very often that line of sight is an issue. And it's not like it matters, anyway.
Quelque Chose New Eden Roller Disco Supply	Posted - 2008.04.18 02:07:00 - [22] Originally by: Assassin Akah LOS is >>> NOT <<< ressource consumming. Infinite useless CONCORD flying around is. Because it require AI... LOS DONT. Its a simple code. You ever play with the Unreal Editor? Collision calculations can constitute a substantial drain on the processor, especially when things start moving around. That's why most FPS games determine hits based on a cube or at most a low- poly cylinder that surrounds the playermodel instead of more complex locational damage systems or (at the most extreme) per- poly hit detection. On the individual level it's not that much work to determine whether an asteroid is in the way or not but when you start making many thousands of such calculations per node per minute it starts to stack up... and people already complain pretty loudly about lag. ___________________________________________
Assassin Akah	Posted - 2008.04.18 02:13:00 - [23] ^---- Why not make that calculation client based? Anyway, Im going to sleep,working early, so yeah, keep it coming, I will read it all tomorrow.
Neth'Rae Gallente Neth's Workshop	Posted - 2008.04.18 02:13:00 - [24] Edited by: Neth''Rae on 18/04/2008 02:13:42 Originally by: Quelque Chose Originally by: Assassin Akah LOS is >>> NOT <<< ressource consumming. Infinite useless CONCORD flying around is. Because it require AI... LOS DONT. Its a simple code. You ever play with the Unreal Editor? Collision calculations can constitute a substantial drain on the processor, especially when things start moving around. That's why most FPS games determine hits based on a cube or at most a low- poly cylinder that surrounds the playermodel instead of more complex locational damage systems or (at the most extreme) per- poly hit detection. On the individual level it's not that much work to determine whether an asteroid is in the way or not but when you start making many thousands of such calculations per node per minute it starts to stack up... and people already complain pretty loudly about lag. Yeah, One calculation for each volley from each turret.. xD But we shouldn't really feed the trolls.. Request signatures at EVE-GFX
Quelque Chose New Eden Roller Disco Supply	Posted - 2008.04.18 02:16:00 - [25] Originally by: Assassin Akah ^---- Why not make that calculation client based? Anyway, Im going to sleep,working early, so yeah, keep it coming, I will read it all tomorrow. Clientside hit detection is the Great Satan. ___________________________________________
Assassin Akah	Posted - 2008.04.18 02:17:00 - [26] Edited by: Assassin Akah on 18/04/2008 02:18:51 One last post before going to bed. To the guy there saying Im a troll. Its a lot easier, IMO, to calculate a little burts of maximum 8 bullets per ship then, lets say, a machine gun in any other FPS games. PS: A little last thing to frug or something; Yes their Ai consist of orbiting, but you know when they get in colision to each others, with players controlled ship or with the gates... Thats even more ressoures wasted.
Quelque Chose New Eden Roller Disco Supply	Posted - 2008.04.18 02:18:00 - [27] Originally by: Assassin Akah One last post before going to bed. To the guy there saying Im a troll. Its a lot easier, IMO, to calculate a little burts of maximum 8 bullets per ship then, lets say, a machine gun in any other FPS games. Most games don't calculate each bullet though. Most machineguns are hitscan rather than projectile- based and the game simply calculates the duration of the hit and applies an appropriate factor of the weapon's dps. ___________________________________________
Assassin Akah	Posted - 2008.04.18 02:20:00 - [28] Aaaaaaaanyway, all that rablabla to say; its doable.
Shaun Klaroh Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD	Posted - 2008.04.18 02:20:00 - [29] If ANY calculation that would result in a change in a result (especially combat) were client-side, you would see a new breed of cheaters on Eve. ----- Quote: "Are these people prisoners?" Arkhan asked. "Not at all," Melak replied. "They're free to run and get shot any time they like."
Count Bolton	Posted - 2008.04.18 04:13:00 - [30] EVE did use to have LOS in beta. This is what happened: Guy A shoots at Guy B, Guy A desyncs. Guy B flies behind station, Guy A still sees Guy B in front of him. Guy A shoots at Guy B, who appears to be in front of him. "Your 250mm Railgun failed to activate because Target(Guy B) is no longer with your line of sight." "Your 250mm Railgun failed to activate because Target(Guy B) is no longer with your line of sight." "Your 250mm Railgun failed to activate because Target(Guy B) is no longer with your line of sight." "Your 250mm Railgun failed to activate because Target(Guy B) is no longer with your line of sight." "Your 250mm Railgun failed to activate because Target(Guy B) is no longer with your line of sight." "Your 250mm Railgun failed to activate because Target(Guy B) is no longer with your line of sight." Guy A dies. The end.

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