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techzer0
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.04.20 09:23:00 -
[31]
Originally by: KISOGOKU Why should macroers will use BACON? I saw alot of times macroers are cloaking/logging off someone enter local already, what will bacon do for them their macros cant do?
Originally by: techzer0 How long before every single ISK farming Raven has this installed? War targets? Forget ever getting within range unless you happen to jump through the same gate they're warping to.
Because I've actually caught a few that were either not paying attention or watching one of their other farming accounts. They do cloak/log when they notice someone in local, but that's only if they notice you ------------
Originally by: CCP Mitnal It's great being a puppetmaster
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:04:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Shakuul Edited by: Shakuul on 20/04/2008 08:23:19
Originally by: MotherMoon maybe bacon ill be the reason CP finally removed local once and for all.
and then bacon will only tell you when a war target has spoken in local thus showing up.
which fun mind games will then be played.
but yeah anti Bacon gets my vote.
I hate local allready now this. so thank you BACON guys for giving us more reason to kill local dead.
This. Bacon is just highlighting an existing problem (the unreasonable/excessive amount of information local provides) by giving everyone easy access to this information (through sound). Don't petition to remove bacon, petition to remove local.
Removing Local is a complicated and delicate issue. I'm for removing Local, but not without replacement- and as yet, I've not heard a single good idea for what will replace Local. Local is not just a powerful intel tool, it's THE ONLY real time intel tool; Local needs removing and replacing with a more realistic, limited intel tool.
Removing BACON has no such problems. If you're for removing Local, you should be for removing BACON. ------
Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways. |
Cruthensis
Gallente Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:07:00 -
[33]
Originally by: KISOGOKU Why should macroers will use BACON? I saw alot of times macroers are cloaking/logging off someone enter local already, what will bacon do for them their macros cant do?
ISK per hour is all that matters to them. At their end this translates into:
"How many clients can one operator operate before ship safety and reaction time become issues with a negative effect on income?"
So, like you say, maybe they already wrote their own tool. Maybe not and they'll start using this one. In either case it's a bad thing. It allows one person to manage more machines. It means ISK farmers are more likely to form corporations to take advantage of the related benefits (because people who've war-decced them will now be 'audible').
1. Buy Vexor 2. Fit for Gank 3. Suicide ISK farmer 4. Grind sec 5. see 1. |
Ralara
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:11:00 -
[34]
The Carrot Party is vegetarian, and thus does not like Bacon. -- Ralara / Ralarina
VOTE FOR RALARA AS YOUR CSM REPRESENTATIVE, AND RECEIVE A COUPON FOR A 10% DISCOUNT AT WORLD OF WARCRAFT.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=74811 |
Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:14:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Eronysis Beetracker
What is being passed off here is large alliances keeping the advantage of having such tools private and quasi secret. BACON brings them to the masses, in an OPEN SOURCE format. Tools of this nature are being used against thousands of players BY people posting BAN BACON messages in this very thread and in others. Period.
As infiltrated as goonfleet is there's no reason why everyone shouldn't have access to beetracker by now, so practically speaking your point is moot. -----------
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Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:17:00 -
[36]
CSM candidate here.
I'm against any 3rd party program that gives a significant advantage to its users compared to those that do not use the program. It basically forces people to use the program if they want to participate in the top levels of the game.
I know what happens if noone *****s down on this stuff, in Ultima Online it was compulsory to use programs that spammed movement requests to the server or make the client tick faster and thus send more movement commands, so your character would always run faster than those without the program. If you wished to participate in PVP, you had to have one of these programs. The staff never undertook action against those using the program, so it got completely out of hand, and now almost every PVPer there is using this trash. We don't want those situations to arise in Eve, thus for the good of all, the Bacon program and similar utilities must be blacklisted.
I understand that scrolling through the local channel isn't really a nice mechanic either, but if you want changes to the interface and feedback, then suggest them, so they become available for everyone when they are officialy implemented. ---
Consider voting for me in the CSM elections. I invite you to take a look at the campaign website for issues and further information. Visit our Campaign Website |
Cailais
Amarr VITOC Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:54:00 -
[37]
As far as I can see BACON is simply an audio version of local. The problems are inherent with Local and the need for players to find others / conceal themselves.
Im reminded of Winterblinks comment on his warp drive active pod cast - picture the scene where a PC blurts out a warning - hubby crashes through the kitchen barging wife out of the way shouting 'Out of the way woman! My internet spaceship is in danger!'
C.
New Scanner Idea!
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Louis DelaBlanche
Cosmic Odyssey Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2008.04.20 10:59:00 -
[38]
Dont like the principles behind this new app, or what itl potentially mean for PvP in EVE (another step to PvP being only between "PvPers" like in most MMOs). That said, if its not breaking any rules then nothing can really be done, especially if its now gone open source meaning unless CCP specifically ban its application & anyone using it (how to prove that?) theres no way for it to be gotten rid of.
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Adonis 4174
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:04:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Louis DelaBlanche Dont like the principles behind this new app, or what itl potentially mean for PvP in EVE (another step to PvP being only between "PvPers" like in most MMOs). That said, if its not breaking any rules then nothing can really be done, especially if its now gone open source meaning unless CCP specifically ban its application & anyone using it (how to prove that?) theres no way for it to be gotten rid of.
Wouldn't a local nerf be a way to get rid of it? ---- Infiniband can do more than just prevent lag |
Max Torps
Gallente eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:14:00 -
[40]
My view is here. If you nerf something like local which is crying out to be fixed anyway, give something back. Spy satellites and perimeter beacons could be used for fleet tracking etc. Anyway, it's a thought.
EvE blogspace, free! Max Torps CSM Candidate |
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clone 1
Laughing Leprechauns Corporation
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:19:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Evelgrivion Anyone who supports BACON is someone who does not understand why it is fundamentally bad for this game, tbqfh.
This..
And if CCP truly approve this, then they have lost their vision too.
-------------------------------------------------- The Angels Have the Phone Box |
Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:20:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Serenity Steele CONCORD has locked the original thread so I can't see what BACON is/was, however the Beetracker program looks like 2 things to me: 1) An attempt by players to add to the UI where it is lacking 2) Unbalanced that a specific group of players only should have access to the tool.
On the point of balance .. does everyone remember when Portraits were being replaced with +ve/-ve images in the client cache? This was a high-demand feature not present in the client. So now, it's implemented in the client for everyone.
IMO, it should be implemented for all, or not implemented at all. Whether "implemented for all" is a good case, is up for debate
If CCP wants it implemented they will put it in the program, and add a checkbox in the options window to turn it on, or off. Third party tools are not the answer.
This also works directly into your maps. If everyone cannot have access to the new information that is coming out ahead of schedule for those that purchased the maps and leave others without it, that is also unfair.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:36:00 -
[43]
The more pertinant question is what does Kevin Bacon think about the CSM.
SKUNK
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Des Garcons
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:47:00 -
[44]
Who cares what csm candidates think they are all scammers just using this to try to get ppl to trust them so they can scam them.
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Adonis 4174
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:55:00 -
[45]
We seriously need a sticky bacon thread. Horrid though that sounds. ---- Infiniband can do more than just prevent lag |
Reiisha
Splint Eye Probabilities Inc. Dawn of Transcendence
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Posted - 2008.04.20 11:58:00 -
[46]
CCP has mentioned time and time again that even they think local chat is flawed. Making an application that enhances a tool that the devs don't actually support is rather strange.
But look at it this way. When local finally gets removed, everyone who's depended on this application will be weeded out anyway, because they can't be bothered to play properly.
EVE History Wiki
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Shaun Klaroh
Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:03:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Des Garcons Who cares what csm candidates think they are all scammers just using this to try to get ppl to trust them so they can scam them.
I was going to mention that this would be a perfect political move for CSM candidates to jump on. -----
Quote: "Are these people prisoners?" Arkhan asked.
"Not at all," Melak replied. "They're free to run and get shot any time they like."
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:33:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Cailais As far as I can see BACON is simply an audio version of local. The problems are inherent with Local and the need for players to find others / conceal themselves.
I coudln't said it bettar myself. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Recruitment -KB- |
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:40:00 -
[49]
A candiate that comes out and says definitivly they would rather advocate scrapping local as is even without a scanning replacement rather than have it continue vulnerable to BACON/Beetracker like abuses
GETS MY VOTE
Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam |
Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:57:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Shaun Klaroh There is no such thing as Civil war, especially when Caldari are involved.
The forums are where most do their pvp.
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Shaun Klaroh
Caldari Nova Mining Manufacturing and Research LTD
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:58:00 -
[51]
A projection would be difficult as Tri prices are still trying to stabilize. On top of that, a majority of the mineral demands are from combat pilots, not miners anyway. -----
Quote: "Are these people prisoners?" Arkhan asked.
"Not at all," Melak replied. "They're free to run and get shot any time they like."
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Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:06:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Alekseyev Karrde on 20/04/2008 13:06:31 True but pvpers arnt 100% of the demand. If roaming gangs never catch anything, no one is replacing any ships except for unavoiable POS related fights or the odd engagement where the offensive force doesnt scout worth a damn.
EDIT: couple that with the fact that those not having to replace their ships are pulling in ore and isk at afk rates flooding market. It's a problem.
Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:13:00 -
[53]
I'm not a candidate, but I'm not sure I could support one who is in any way in favour of this.
Logging should only be available on test builds of the client.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Thorradin
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:40:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Eronysis Edited by: Eronysis on 20/04/2008 05:36:32 Edited by: Eronysis on 20/04/2008 05:34:54 Macro It is safe to assume you all misunderstand the word.
Regards,
Eronysis
Emergency Damage Control I requires 1 capacitor to activate, you only have 0.
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Thorradin
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:44:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Serenity Steele 1) An attempt by players to add to the UI where it is lacking
Wait what? Add to UI where it's lacking? It's an automated system-warning for people who refuse to keep local open and make use of the excessive intel gathering CCP already gives them (and wants to nerf).
Looks more like it takes an existing problem that CCP isn't a fan of, and makes it much worse.
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.20 13:48:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Thorradin
Originally by: Serenity Steele 1) An attempt by players to add to the UI where it is lacking
Wait what? Add to UI where it's lacking? It's an automated system-warning for people who refuse to keep local open and make use of the excessive intel gathering CCP already gives them (and wants to nerf).
Looks more like it takes an existing problem that CCP isn't a fan of, and makes it much worse.
Agreed. It is not the player's place to IMPLEMENT game changes. It is CCP's. We have our place as communicators to CCP (all of us, not just the CSMs) and that is how the game moves forward. We suggest, we do not implement.
Remember that.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
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Posted - 2008.04.20 14:19:00 -
[57]
Originally by: LaVista Vista I do by no means think bacon is cool.
It's a very big workaround, but it would do the same task as reading directly from the memory, which is bad.
So i hope that CCP will change their EULA/TOS accordingly.
CCP has no means of detecting whether or not anyone is using a tool that has no direct interaction with the client. Changing the EULA/TOS without changing the underlying game mechanics would have no effect whatsoever. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats |
MongWen
Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2008.04.20 14:25:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Shaun Klaroh
Originally by: MongWen Without downloading and looking at what this program does, I can say pure and simple that I am 100% against any programs that does ôhackö memory locations to give an unfair advantage. And I hope that CCP and the other CSM Candidates are against this also.
Of which this program does neither, so the point's kinda... lost.
Yeah, I stand corrected... after diving more into finding more out off the process behind this program.
It uses the log from Log server right? That log also contains the username of the person that uses this program, and it can that case be considered a data mining program.
------------------------- Vote MongWen For The CMS. [Campaign Site]
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.20 15:30:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Goumindong on 20/04/2008 15:32:23
Originally by: Avon I'm not a candidate, but I'm not sure I could support one who is in any way in favour of this.
Logging should only be available on test builds of the client.
Then how do you effectively bug report anything?
Originally by: Eronysis Beetracker
Bee tracker does not exist. The Page is a troll. No one knows what the zip contains because no one has the password.
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah CSM candidate here.
I'm against any 3rd party program that gives a significant advantage to its users compared to those that do not use the program. It basically forces people to use the program if they want to participate in the top levels of the game.
So you are against:
EFT in any use[This gives players an advantage in knowing just how their ship performs without testing it and manually calculating everything, it also lets them easily know what they can fly and whether or not it will fit].
Team Speak/Ventrillo[This gives players a communication advantage, is much cheaper than CCPs alternative, and you can connect to it without being in the game[or in fleet/gang/etc], which allows much more robust and fast, uninterrupted communication.]
Alliance/Corp Forums[This gives players a communication and organization advantage not to mention the advantage of a shared community identity]
EveMon[This gives players an auditory signal when their skills finish and allows for planning around various events like downtime. This decreases the amount of time that a character will spend without skills trained and will over the long run, make one character in a set of two with the same ideal build and plan better than the other.]
IRC and other Chat and Message Programs[This gives players ways to communicate with others instantly and speedily without them needing to be on the teamspeak channel.
Cell Phones[Its like chat programs except you can SMS important pilots anywhere in order to gauge participation]
All of these things are third party programs or hardware and most all of them are required to participate in the "high level game".
edit: Oh, and i forgot asset and corp API exports which are also invaluable for doing just about anything. I shouldn't need to elucidate about this.
What is the difference between these programs and BACON? Not much.
_________________________________________________________
The reality is is that this is not against the EULA, there is no reasonable way to detect anyone using these programs, and they have been in existence for years, I am quite surprised that most people in large alliances haven't heard about using this information.
Frankly I am not sure whether or not this is some gross abuse of the system or just a clever system to more easily monitor the information they have. But unless there is some clear stance about third party programs which are clearly required for the "upper level play" its very hard to say this is any worse than anything else everyone participates in.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.20 16:13:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Avon on 20/04/2008 16:13:49
Originally by: Goumindong I am quite surprised that most people in large alliances haven't heard about using this information.
They have, the difference is that they see a line and try not to cross it.
There is a big difference between tools that automate aspects of the game and directly aid gameplay, and other tools.
Voice comms automate nothing. People need to talk. (Also, CCP's offering is free, so I don't see how you think the alternatives are cheaper).
EFT does aid the fitting ships, but it does not directly effect gameplay.
It is easy to judge applications by those critera, however, it is not easy to detect them all (portrait hacks, for example).
And no, Bacon and the concept is not new. I certainly know of one widespread implementation of something similar, which was brought to an early end because it was felt to be a cheat, even though technically it was within the rules in the same way that Bacon is.
If client logs are going to be used in an undetectable way to gain an ingame advantage, they need to be removed or encrypted (although encryption is not ideal). It must always be assumed that the client is hostile, and provide only vital information to it.
Logging needs to be in place on test builds only. If there is a bug there is no real reason why logs from test builds (even of the current client) could not be used to trap it, rather than risking insecure clients machines giving an in-game advantage.
If you can not see the difference between fair and unfair Goumindong, I hope you do not get a seat on the CSM.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
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