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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.20 23:45:00 -
[121]
Originally by: MongWen
Originally by: Goumindong
All of these programs can be compromised in order to do malicious things. Heck, you could just be downloading a virus with nothing else.
This is no different from any piece of software you download from any source.
That is true, but then again I believe that is a whole different topic, since this is about BACON not any other program you might download.
The point is that this does not make BACON special. Nor does it giving you an advantage make it special. Nor does it being third party make it special.
The only thing that does is that it highlights the current problems involved with the abilities of ships to get safe. And again, fixing those problems is a priority anyway.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
sov68n
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.20 23:45:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Masu'di for example, an audio sound played when a new ship arrives on grid, would be useful and sensible, i'm sure our ships onboard computers would be capable of it, and be able to handle other sensory mediums other than light.
You would go deaf during fleet fights.
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2008.04.21 00:28:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
I am saying that EFT only provides me with theoretical information about optimum ship fittings. It does not advise me about practical situations (quite literally) on the fly.
The difference is quite obvious and you are obviously derailing this thread with your nonsense.
Respect -10.
It may not advise you, but it does help you in those situations.
You are still derailing this thread. Learn when to quit!
"May not" is incorrect. EFT certainly DOES NOT actively operate in any way in game.
Originally by: Goumindong You should note that the program discussed does not advise you either, it simply makes an auditory cue...
That is active advice. You are wrong.
Originally by: Goumindong Also, then, you are against third party chat programs and team speak?
I did not even say that I am against BACON. You just assumed that. Simply, I despise your illogic and obvious derailment of this thread.
This thread is supposed to be about which CSM candidates support or oppose the use of BACON; a topic in which I would have been interested.
No, I am not opposed to the use of chat programs or voice software, since they either pre-date Eve and are common Internet practice, or are replications of features which already exist in Eve and which function in exactly the same manner.
I can't be bothered with you any more. You appear set on arguing that black is white. This will inevitably mean that few people will vote for you and that, if nothing else, justifies this thread-wreck.
Bandures > Tommy, you like a cowboy harry ) |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.21 01:01:00 -
[124]
Edited by: Goumindong on 21/04/2008 01:01:44
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
That is active advice. You are wrong.
Its the same "advice" that you get from local...
Quote: semantics
I meant what you said. The grammar is correct and the meaning is clear. Either argue how EFT doesn't give you an in-game advantage[it does], or argue why this one is so terrible.
Quote:
I did not even say that I am against BACON. You just assumed that. Simply, I despise your illogic and obvious derailment of this thread.
Why is talking about other programs[and the comments of other CSM candidates regarding these programs] not valid?
Quote:
If you are so convinced that BACON is a good thing for Eve, why not just come across honestly and openly; declare it for what it is, an alteration to game mechanics which you would like to see as an official feature?
Because i'm not saying its good for eve. I am saying its not necessarily bad. There are gray areas between black and white and understanding the effects it will have[and does have, since these types of programs are not new(and well existed long before eve)].
Whether not it should be a feature or not, i don't know.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Thorradin
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.21 03:10:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Goumindong Frankly I am not sure whether or not this is some gross abuse of the system or just a clever system to more easily monitor the information they have. But unless there is some clear stance about third party programs which are clearly required for the "upper level play" its very hard to say this is any worse than anything else everyone participates in.
You're not sure if it's abuse? You're talking about programs which use a bug logging program to create bots that help give the player an advantage in the game. I've seen people try to compare this stuff to EVE-mon, EFT, and such, and it's pretty clear they're grasping for straws since EVE-Mon makes use of API, which CCP intended to be used for 3rd party apps that aren't game-breaking advantages. EFT's only crime is that it gave way to the EFT warriors.
The only good thing about people using BACON is that if CCP fixes it, the Pavlovian players will suddenly find themselves exploding without their alarm to warn them as they'll keep forgetting to check local like they should've been doing.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.21 04:08:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Thorradin
Originally by: Goumindong Frankly I am not sure whether or not this is some gross abuse of the system or just a clever system to more easily monitor the information they have. But unless there is some clear stance about third party programs which are clearly required for the "upper level play" its very hard to say this is any worse than anything else everyone participates in.
You're not sure if it's abuse? You're talking about programs which use a bug logging program to create bots that help give the player an advantage in the game. I've seen people try to compare this stuff to EVE-mon, EFT, and such, and it's pretty clear they're grasping for straws since EVE-Mon makes use of API, which CCP intended to be used for 3rd party apps that aren't game-breaking advantages. EFT's only crime is that it gave way to the EFT warriors.
The only good thing about people using BACON is that if CCP fixes it, the Pavlovian players will suddenly find themselves exploding without their alarm to warn them as they'll keep forgetting to check local like they should've been doing.
Eve-mon originally used a persons log in and password to query data directly from the server. The API was a reaction to its use to cover 3rd party apps that the players were using already.
Bacon has no bots and no automation. There is, technically, no advantage being gained since a person needs to be at their machine to take action and other options have the same level of power[like having someone simply sit in a system and announce on TS]
Its not new, and its publicity will have very little impact on the game.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Malaan Tabfassh
The Flowing Penguins
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Posted - 2008.04.21 04:14:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Malaan Tabfassh on 21/04/2008 04:16:04 EFT vs BACON:
Part 1) Doing the work EFT does atm without EFT (basically):
- Study info pages on several modules. - Compare the gained data with statistical methods. - Set them into relation to the ships variables. - Plot functions and compare them again with statistical methods. - If you want to compare fittings, do this twice and repeat some methods for the gained data.
Basically EFT saves you a lot of time, but it does not interact with the client when you are playing the game. But I have to admit that it enables people not capable of doing mathematical scientific work to use the gained data ingame. But you could just ask someone doing this works for you.
Part 2) Doing the work BACON does atm without using BACON:
- Watching local all the time without interruptions longer than a few seconds. - (With further programs which use BACON data as raw output): Write logs (either using a textfile or a piece of paper) from every player who enters and/or leaves local and adding various other info such as: time, standings, location).
Yes, it saves time too (you now don't have to watch local all the time), but further it provides you with real time data ingame and helps you to concentrate on other things when it gets hot.
In EVE you can choose when entering a hostile enviroment and start a fight. You can take severals months to study your fitting and gathering data before undocking. But once you undock you should have no help from other programs than the client. Especially not programs providing real time data that needs to be gathered from the info the client provides you.
You have to use your eyes to gather this info as you have to use your eyes to gather other infos such as: speed, transversal, location, cap, hostiles, ... . All these infos have to be sorted by your brainpart which is reponsible for incoming visual signals.
BACON helps you to reduce the workload for this brainpart as it moves some important data to the brainpart which processes incoming audio signals (parallelism).
This is unfair as you can now process the whole incoming data in less time than a person who does not use this method of parallelism.
All clients should be handled equal and with this program this is no more the case once you find yourself in an hostile enviroment.
EDIT: typo
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.21 04:24:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Goumindong ...and its publicity will have very little impact on the game.
And that is where you are oh so wrong.
Forum warfare has been around to bring about certain kinds of change. This is no different. The community has been polarized by this release and it is directly because of the publicity that this software has caused. The local issue is what is being brought up mostly and though it bothers me that one person can do such a thing the fact remains that it happened.
EVE is not black and white. There are hundreds of shades of gray and you need to take them all into account when reading the forums. Your inability to recognize that the game has not or will not be affected is surprising to me. And, it makes me think one of two things about you. Either 1) it makes me thing that you don't care about EVE or 2) you are unable to post an argument without thinking. If you want to learn how to actually have a discussion then you should go join the sa forums or something. Because to be completely honest I have this to say to you: You are doing it wrong.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.21 04:27:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Malaan Tabfassh
This is unfair as you can now process the whole incoming data in less time than a person who does not use this method of parallelism.
But the program is public, anyone can use it.
Similarly large monitors allow you to have more of the local screen open at one time as well as organize other information better. Does this parallelism constitute and unfair advantage? Do we ban large monitors because someone else might not be able to use a smaller screen as well?
Quote: But you could just ask someone doing this works for you.
You can also just ask someone to yell on TS whenever anyone enters local...
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Thorradin
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.21 04:32:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Thorradin
Originally by: Goumindong Frankly I am not sure whether or not this is some gross abuse of the system or just a clever system to more easily monitor the information they have. But unless there is some clear stance about third party programs which are clearly required for the "upper level play" its very hard to say this is any worse than anything else everyone participates in.
You're not sure if it's abuse? You're talking about programs which use a bug logging program to create bots that help give the player an advantage in the game. I've seen people try to compare this stuff to EVE-mon, EFT, and such, and it's pretty clear they're grasping for straws since EVE-Mon makes use of API, which CCP intended to be used for 3rd party apps that aren't game-breaking advantages. EFT's only crime is that it gave way to the EFT warriors.
The only good thing about people using BACON is that if CCP fixes it, the Pavlovian players will suddenly find themselves exploding without their alarm to warn them as they'll keep forgetting to check local like they should've been doing.
Eve-mon originally used a persons log in and password to query data directly from the server. The API was a reaction to its use to cover 3rd party apps that the players were using already.
Bacon has no bots and no automation. There is, technically, no advantage being gained since a person needs to be at their machine to take action and other options have the same level of power[like having someone simply sit in a system and announce on TS]
Its not new, and its publicity will have very little impact on the game.
EVE-Mon was also never in conflict with the EULA, nor did it go in the opposite direction of the intent for EVE. CCP wants to nerf local, go watch Ovuer's interview from the alliance tourny. BACON is a step in the other direction, and now that its public, instead of just being used by farmers (whose programs likely include a ctrl+q line and are more advanced) and a few alliances, everyone will be able to use it, and the problem it presents will grow until CCP kills it. Hopefully in a burtal and bloody fashion, to the enjoyment of many players.
Once again you make the false assumption of
Quote: no advantage being gained since a person needs to be at their machine to take action and other options have the same level of power
The reality is I could run this program, turn and play a game on my Wii, and when I hear the noise, if I'm a scout I hit my VOIP button and inform others, or I look over, see a possible threat, and move to safety. I just had my ship saved because of BACON. I have to go to my machine to take action, I did not have to be at my machine to know I had to take action. If you cannot see this simple fact, then you are lost on this problem, even more so than when you argued against the Eagle's much needed turret, and others argued that a 4 launcher Hawk would ruin EVE and make interceptors worthless.
If you don't see a difference with logserver mining programs like BACON, ok that's fine, but you're going to end up realizing you're on the wrong side of the argument.
Please stop talking about your local change ideas here, that's not the point of this thread.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.21 04:32:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa 2) you are unable to post an argument without thinking
It is indeed that i cannot post an argument without thinking.
What would the world be if everyone thought before they posted an argument.
Quote:
Forum warfare has been around to bring about certain kinds of change. This is no different. The community has been polarized by this release and it is directly because of the publicity that this software has caused. The local issue is what is being brought up mostly and though it bothers me that one person can do such a thing the fact remains that it happened.
The reaction might bring a lot of change, but the program itself will not have any profound effects on gameplay in eve.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
AKULA UrQuan
Caldari STK Scientific Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.04.21 04:34:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Goumindong Its not new, and its publicity will have very little impact on the game.
*Waves BS flag*
I can be happly ratting away in 0.0 with all ingame chat channels minimized and be basicly 100% safe with this evil thing. Doesn't that strike you as odd to say the least?
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.21 04:34:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Goumindong
Quote: Forum warfare has been around to bring about certain kinds of change. This is no different. The community has been polarized by this release and it is directly because of the publicity that this software has caused. The local issue is what is being brought up mostly and though it bothers me that one person can do such a thing the fact remains that it happened.
The reaction might bring a lot of change, but the program itself will not have any profound effects on gameplay in eve.
If it removes local, whether that is begged for or not that is a profound effect on EVE.
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Eternal Hatred
Amarr Pantsu Garu Limited Technologies
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Posted - 2008.04.21 04:39:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Talarn Kalarn It is also against the spirit of the game to evade those out to ruin your fun... because then you are ruining their fun instead!
Thats why I will vote Pro-BACON person.. just for the lulz. _________________
It's great being an Amarr, isn't it??? :( |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.21 04:43:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Thorradin
EVE-Mon was also never in conflict with the EULA, nor did it go in the opposite direction of the intent for EVE. CCP wants to nerf local, go watch Ovuer's interview from the alliance tourny. BACON is a step in the other direction, and now that its public, instead of just being used by farmers (whose programs likely include a ctrl+q line and are more advanced) and a few alliances, everyone will be able to use it, and the problem it presents will grow until CCP kills it. Hopefully in a burtal and bloody fashion, to the enjoyment of many players.
Go watch the 2nd from last alliance tournament where Oveur gets his ass handed to him in a debate on the subject. Or go read the comments by other developers on the forum where they are searching for ways to resolve the issues.
There is a lot of confusion over what exactly the problem is with local, but I assure you, removing it or reducing its functionality is not in the best interests of eve. Well, at least, if you want people to play in the low-sec and 0.0 and not dodge wardecs all day long
But look at the actual changes that the program has. A: Not many.
Quote:
The reality is I could run this program, turn and play a game on my Wii, and when I hear the noise, if I'm a scout I hit my VOIP button and inform others, or I look over, see a possible threat, and move to safety. I just had my ship saved because of BACON. I have to go to my machine to take action, I did not have to be at my machine to know I had to take action. If you cannot see this simple fact, then you are lost on this problem, even more so than when you argued against the Eagle's much needed turret, and others argued that a 4 launcher Hawk would ruin EVE and make interceptors worthless.
I could rig a mirror up to my computer monitor with convex lenses to project the visual image of my local channel of eve right next to my TV that was down the hall and around the corner. I could then watch it in my peripheral vision and inform over TS with a wireless keyboard and mic when anyone entered local.
Much in the same way you must be listening for the auditory cues when doing other things that might also take up that auditory concentration.
In this very thread we see people argue that they need to watch local "every couple seconds" and if that is the case then you must be "a couple seconds" away from your computer including reaction time in order to benefit from this while doing nothing that includes auditory stimulation with no sounds going on anywhere else.
No, its just not nearly as useful as you claim.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.21 04:45:00 -
[136]
Goumindong I'm going to state this publicly so you can visualize it.
First of all I want you to know I do not want local removed.
Second, I want you to know I am not going to vote for you.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.21 04:50:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Goumindong I'm going to state this publicly so you can visualize it.
First of all I want you to know I do not want local removed.
Second, I want you to know I am not going to vote for you.
Why? Because I am willing to take an unpopular position when the facts support it? Because i willing to look at all sides of an issue? Because I won't back down despite public pressure?
Surely you want someone who will instead cave to pressure and not give any serious objections when developers or players are pushing for options that would damage eve?
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.21 04:54:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Goumindong I'm going to state this publicly so you can visualize it.
First of all I want you to know I do not want local removed.
Second, I want you to know I am not going to vote for you.
Why? Because I am willing to take an unpopular position when the facts support it? Because i willing to look at all sides of an issue? Because I won't back down despite public pressure?
Surely you want someone who will instead cave to pressure and not give any serious objections when developers or players are pushing for options that would damage eve?
Actually, none of that. Mostly because you said you don't think before making an argument.
I'm all for the little guy (trust me, I'm one of them). But the one that posts in a serious thread that they don't think before they speak loses 100% with me.
I'm done speaking with you now.
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Malaan Tabfassh
The Flowing Penguins
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Posted - 2008.04.21 04:56:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Goumindong But the program is public, anyone can use it.
That's not the point. Macros are public too and anyone can use them.
Originally by: Goumindong Similarly large monitors allow you to have more of the local screen open at one time as well as organize other information better. Does this parallelism constitute and unfair advantage? Do we ban large monitors because someone else might not be able to use a smaller screen as well?
Does the monitor interact with the client or the logs in another way than CCP wants it to act? That would be a valid point in a FPS as the gamma affects the darkness of some game enviroments.
Originally by: Goumindong You can also just ask someone to yell on TS whenever anyone enters local...
Granted, we have unemployment here. I should ask someone.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.21 05:09:00 -
[140]
Edited by: Goumindong on 21/04/2008 05:15:22
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Actually, none of that. Mostly because you said you don't think before making an argument.
Read it again. This time look at what you wrote before making accusations.
"Cannot post an argument without thinking"
Can not post an argument without thinking
"post an argument without thinking" is the thing that i am not able to do.
Which would mean that i am unable to do the thing you are accusing me of by your words and mine.
Or were you just posting without thinking there?
Originally by: Malaan Tabfassh
That's not the point. Macros are public too and anyone can use them.
Ahh, but macros are against the EULA and this is not. Should using log server data be against the EULA? I'm not sure. This program at least provides a minimal benefit, and to provide significant benefit you would need massive resource expenditures[which very well may be against the EULA]
The point is that its publicity is not something that makes it stand apart from any other third party program, nor is its utility. The only arguments that can be made to its validity come to the effect it will have on the game it it is not changed, which are minimal as far as i can tell.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
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TheCraftyHippo
Minmatar MicroBite Scrap and Salvage
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Posted - 2008.04.21 05:18:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Goumindong Why? Because I am willing to take an unpopular position when the facts support it? Because i willing to look at all sides of an issue? Because I won't back down despite public pressure?
Surely you want someone who will instead cave to pressure and not give any serious objections when developers or players are pushing for options that would damage eve?
This is crazy. This IS damaging to Eve. Many people here are stating serious objections to this program that IS damaging to Eve. You're asking a rhetorical question, which is completely ridiculous, which is entirely the opposite of what you're currently doing. You just indicted yourself.
The arguments you're presenting in your previous posts are borderline ridiculous. They are representative of one who is attempting to rationalize something that common sense and general consensus clearly states as wrong.
BACON removes human interaction from intelligence gathering. In order to have someone watch local for you, you have to involve other people. Other people involved in what you are doing is called teamwork. Teamwork is the foundation and the reason corporations exist. When the person who's watching local for you informs you of a security threat, he is participating in one of the foundational elements of the game.
BACON allows corporations and teamwork to be completely bypassed to gain the same security. All those intelligence channels that you need to have open in 0.0 in order to survive that involve people actually playing the game participating in teamwork and working with others is rendered completely obsolete. People have entire Eve careers based on intel gathering, which is seriously reduced.
Human participation is removed in favor of cloaked, undetectable, non-interactive alts just waiting to send a audio cue from anywhere in the galaxy.
The fact that you cannot see this as something terrible is utterly astounding.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.21 05:24:00 -
[142]
Edited by: Goumindong on 21/04/2008 05:25:11
Originally by: TheCraftyHippo
Human participation is removed in favor of cloaked, undetectable, non-interactive alts just waiting to send a audio cue from anywhere in the galaxy.
Audio cues from everywhere in the galaxy would be worthless. In order to receive accurate intel you would need someone at that computer to manually activate a VOIP program or manually input text into a chat box.
edit: Maybe you should look at the main part of that, the undetectable cloaking ship that can afk anywhere it wants?
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Malaan Tabfassh
The Flowing Penguins
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Posted - 2008.04.21 05:41:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Goumindong Audio cues from everywhere in the galaxy would be worthless. In order to receive accurate intel you would need someone at that computer to manually activate a VOIP program or manually input text into a chat box.
Don't worry, I'll write a program doing that work. Such a program which uses raw data BACON provides can do other nice things too, like some people in different posts also pointed out.
And don't underestimate peoples creativity, what do you think will be next? There are some great brains out there.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.21 06:09:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Malaan Tabfassh
Originally by: Goumindong Audio cues from everywhere in the galaxy would be worthless. In order to receive accurate intel you would need someone at that computer to manually activate a VOIP program or manually input text into a chat box.
Don't worry, I'll write a program doing that work. Such a program which uses raw data BACON provides can do other nice things too, like some people in different posts also pointed out.
And don't underestimate peoples creativity, what do you think will be next? There are some great brains out there.
And that would be a macro if it automated any of eves functions. Which is against the EULA.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
jongalt
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Posted - 2008.04.21 06:16:00 -
[145]
umm, lol?
goumindong has written more quality, well-thought (and perhaps at times, controversial) contributions to improving eve-online game-play than most people on these forums.
if you cant see the value of those contributions, well...i guess you will get what you deserve. after "super-tuesday" (or whatever they end up calling the day we vote), we all will.
-jg.
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Malaan Tabfassh
The Flowing Penguins
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Posted - 2008.04.21 06:20:00 -
[146]
Getting data from BACON, processing it and let the output be handled by teamspeak or vent for example. And you don't need a player for that, Microsoft SAM does fine. The client is not affected.
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Eronysis
Caldari Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 06:22:00 -
[147]
Edited by: Eronysis on 21/04/2008 06:22:57 Goumindong is one of the few people on this thread actually reading everything and making informed statements. I think there is some general confusion as to coherency in arguments, and ones emotional output. IE many here seem to respond much more readily to hysteria than reason.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.21 06:23:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Malaan Tabfassh Getting data from BACON, processing it and let the output be handled by teamspeak or vent for example. And you don't need a player for that, Microsoft SAM does fine. The client is not affected.
So now you have hundreds of things reporting all over the place and its still not as valuable as a player with eyes.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Malaan Tabfassh
The Flowing Penguins
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Posted - 2008.04.21 06:49:00 -
[149]
In post [156] you basically said that this data is worthless and in post [162] you say now that players with eyes are more valuable doing that job.
I could ask you to elaborate this, but I won't, I'm not really interested in it. You have your opinion and I have mine and I think we won't come to a conclusion even if we post on the next 100 pages. At the end it's CCPs decision to decide about that matter, but I really hope they won't tolerate 3rd party programs like this one.
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Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2008.04.21 06:58:00 -
[150]
Originally by: MotherMoon maybe bacon ill be the reason CCP finally removed local once and for all.
Oh please, let this come to pass.
Originally by: Rachel Vend ... with 100% reliability in most cases ...
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