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Alex Sinai Mining And Probing Specialists 25	Posted - 2011.09.08 14:02:00 - [1] - Quote Someone mentioned that this whole affair of Incarna have striking similarities to Star Wars Galaxies NGE. How it was done and the purposes of it. What was planned and how it all failed. It was haunting me all along and I decided to do some research to see if there really is any similarities. SWG NGE closing down December 2011 behind the scenes My research took a few hours of reading but above link sums it all up with all the necessary links to developers explanations, apologies and regrets for what was done. What stroke me is not similarities. Is exact same one to one steps done by CCP with Incarna as it was done by SoE when NGE was released. CCP employees at first banned people on forums and in game. Attempted to put names and accuse of things. Call players "vocal minority". Kept and continue to keep silence about most of player base concerns and release "patches" that does not patch what players want to be fixed, instead adding useless for current player base things. Promise things but no intention to implement these seen anywhere. What SoE want to reach with their NGE is to change the player base. They knew these 200 000 that played the game back then will go and hope that they will be replaced with a lot more others. SoE SWG NGE team leader admitted that was the plan. It didn't happen. And SWG closing this year. After 5 years of marketing attempts to bring back old and acquire new players. All failed and Sony Entertainment (SoE) swore never to change games in live but instead release new games if need be. Research it all yourself if you want. It's not similarities. It's exactly the same things that CCP does with Incarna following steps done by SoE to Star Wars Galaxies with release of NGE "update". A game that is widely acknowledged most groundbreaking failure in history of MMO industry and shuts down December 15 2011.
baltec1 25	Posted - 2011.09.08 14:06:00 - [2] - Quote I went through the NGE and I have to say Incarna is NOTHING like the NGE.
Brooks Puuntai Nomadic Asylum 55	Posted - 2011.09.08 14:08:00 - [3] - Quote baltec1 wrote: I went through the NGE and I have to say Incarna is NOTHING like the NGE. While its not exactly the same it does have similarities.
Myxx Atropos Group 43	Posted - 2011.09.08 14:09:00 - [4] - Quote my god... I think I wrote something similar once. baltec1 wrote: I went through the NGE and I have to say Incarna is NOTHING like the NGE. The drastic mechanics changes aren't like it, but how CCP is handling this is... basically lifted from how SOE handled it.
Sader Rykane The Dark Space Initiative Revival Of The Talocan Empire 87	Posted - 2011.09.08 14:12:00 - [5] - Quote Sader Rykane wrote: You're wrong. Key reasons: 1) No one wanted the NGE. 2) People Wanted Incarna 3) The NGE FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGED THE GAME. 4) Eve Onlines core gameplay is exactly the same as it was before Incarna 5) Incarna came out unfinished and useless because it was apparently rushed out with zero relevant features just because CCP loves shiny useless **. 6) If Incarna had been given some damn game play value people would have actually liked it. 7) CCP somehow failed what could have been there most POPULAR expansion that god only knows how many people were waiting for. Sader Rykane wrote: Alex Sinai wrote: Myxx wrote:** A bunch of people really did want incarna. We just didn't want the NEX store. A bunch of people really did want more action in SWG. They just didn't want the NGE . It's not the point Myxx. Take a look at the OP and linked information. Then remember what was going on in here for last 3 month. Oh that includes "shiny new forums". SoE did that too. :-) Huh? "More action?" What are you talking about, there was plenty of Action Pre NGE. The NGE changed game mechanics, it was nearly a completly different game. It didn't add "more action". Incarna changed the hanger, but the core gameplay of eve is exactly the same. Your analogy makes no sense. Since you decided to cross post.
baltec1 25	Posted - 2011.09.08 14:13:00 - [6] - Quote Myxx wrote: my god... I think I wrote something similar once. baltec1 wrote: I went through the NGE and I have to say Incarna is NOTHING like the NGE. The drastic mechanics changes aren't like it, but how CCP is handling this is... basically lifted from how SOE handled it. CCP arn't doing mass bans. The people that did get bans did silly thinks like telling a dev to go die in a fire using his real name. I got a 2 month ban for making a thread on the economic problems the removal of decay would bring from SOE
Jowen Datloran Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 24	Posted - 2011.09.08 14:16:00 - [7] - Quote Brooks Puuntai wrote: baltec1 wrote: I went through the NGE and I have to say Incarna is NOTHING like the NGE. While its not exactly the same it does have similarities. They are both online computer games that falls under the category 'MMORPG'? Seriously, of course there are similarities, but not among the items that made the NGE one big piece of manure... I mean, failure. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á
Brooks Puuntai Nomadic Asylum 55	Posted - 2011.09.08 14:19:00 - [8] - Quote Jowen Datloran wrote: Brooks Puuntai wrote: baltec1 wrote: I went through the NGE and I have to say Incarna is NOTHING like the NGE. While its not exactly the same it does have similarities. They are both online computer games that falls under the category 'MMORPG'? Seriously, of course there are similarities, but not among the items that made the NGE one big piece of manure... I mean, failure. If you want to do broad comparisons yes. However look at the comparisons on why SWG made NGE the way they did and compare it to Incarna and CCPs recent attitude and development focus.
Sader Rykane The Dark Space Initiative Revival Of The Talocan Empire 87	Posted - 2011.09.08 14:21:00 - [9] - Quote Brooks Puuntai wrote: Jowen Datloran wrote: Brooks Puuntai wrote: baltec1 wrote: I went through the NGE and I have to say Incarna is NOTHING like the NGE. While its not exactly the same it does have similarities. They are both online computer games that falls under the category 'MMORPG'? Seriously, of course there are similarities, but not among the items that made the NGE one big piece of manure... I mean, failure. If you want to do broad comparisons yes. However look at the comparisons on why SWG made NGE the way they did and compare it to Incarna and CCPs recent attitude and development focus. In that case this thread should be how CCP is on the ROAD to a NGE disaster, but they haven't actually committed the fatal mistake yet.
baltec1 25	Posted - 2011.09.08 14:22:00 - [10] - Quote Brooks Puuntai wrote: If you want to do broad comparisons yes. However look at the comparisons on why SWG made NGE the way they did and compare it to Incarna and CCPs recent attitude and development focus. CCP have wanted to do Incarna from day one.
Myxx Atropos Group 43	Posted - 2011.09.08 14:26:00 - [11] - Quote oh hey, finally found it again... John Smedley, CEO of SOE, circa 2005/2006 wrote: The SWG community has been voting with it's feet since the NGE came about. Either we end up being right about our ability to turn the ship around and make a game that's BETTER than it was before, or we were wrong and we fail. Either way we were losing subs before the NGE and believe it or not, we are losing them at a slower rate than before. I'm not going to pretend we didn't lose a bunch of subs from this. We did. And I don't think the game is where it needs to be yet to aquire new subs. But it's getting there with each and every publish. At the end of the day there are a lot of people in this community that wonder why we did this? Why did we "deliberately" try and ** people off. Obviously that wasn't our intent. This is a business and we needed to improve the results of the business. Did we make a mistake? Maybe.. but only time is going to tell on that one. One thing is certain. We made a mistake with how we presented it to the community, and for that I'm sorry. I still think it was a needed thing though. It's not as simple as "you should have just fixed the things we were complaining about". That doesn't address the very real fact that what we had was a hardcore game that wasn't going to attract the mass audience that the Star Wars IP brings to the table. Smed Jowen Datloran wrote: Brooks Puuntai wrote: baltec1 wrote:** I went through the NGE and I have to say Incarna is NOTHING like the NGE. While its not exactly the same it does have similarities. They are both online computer games that falls under the category 'MMORPG'? Seriously, of course there are similarities, but not among the items that made the NGE one big piece of manure... I mean, failure. Actually, no... CCP is ignoring its playerbase in the face of our ire about the NEX Store and other stuff. SOE ignored the SWG playerbase in the face of its ire about the NGE CCP is trying to push the NEX store hard. SOE tried to push the NGE hard CCP introduced the NEX store to the overwhelming dissatisfaction of its playerbase SOE introduced the NGE to the overwhelming dissatisfaction of its playerbase Hilmar tried to positively spin the NEX Store (leaked email much?) John Smedley posted the above quote and others, trying to positively spin the NGE I could go on... maybe I will at some point if people want to see it.
Denidil The Graduates Morsus Mihi 79	Posted - 2011.09.08 14:26:00 - [12] - Quote baltec1 wrote: I went through the NGE and I have to say Incarna is NOTHING like the NGE. ^^^^^ WiS is kinda cool and all, but FiS is more important.-á More FIS WORK! Nerf Supers, get the new backgrounds, buff assault ships, do the 0.0 balance, buff lowsec. and make a space pony! DUST SHOULD BE ON THE PC (a real platform!) GDI! I WILL NOT BUY A FQNG PS3
baltec1 25	Posted - 2011.09.08 14:41:00 - [13] - Quote Myxx wrote: Actually, no... CCP is ignoring its playerbase in the face of our ire about the NEX Store and other stuff. SOE ignored the SWG playerbase in the face of its ire about the NGE CCP is trying to push the NEX store hard. SOE tried to push the NGE hard CCP introduced the NEX store to the overwhelming dissatisfaction of its playerbase SOE introduced the NGE to the overwhelming dissatisfaction of its playerbase Hilmar tried to positively spin the NEX Store (leaked email much?) John Smedley posted the above quote and others, trying to positively spin the NGE I could go on... maybe I will at some point if people want to see it. There is nothing wrong with the NEX store and I am quite in favor of it, as are most people. The vast bulk of players who kinked off were worried about pay to win items which CCP have said are not going to happen. CCP are not forcing anything onto us like SOE did. You dont have to use the NEX store if you dont want to.
Myxx Atropos Group 43	Posted - 2011.09.08 14:46:00 - [14] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Myxx wrote: Actually, no... CCP is ignoring its playerbase in the face of our ire about the NEX Store and other stuff. SOE ignored the SWG playerbase in the face of its ire about the NGE CCP is trying to push the NEX store hard. SOE tried to push the NGE hard CCP introduced the NEX store to the overwhelming dissatisfaction of its playerbase SOE introduced the NGE to the overwhelming dissatisfaction of its playerbase Hilmar tried to positively spin the NEX Store (leaked email much?) John Smedley posted the above quote and others, trying to positively spin the NGE I could go on... maybe I will at some point if people want to see it. There is nothing wrong with the NEX store and I am quite in favor of it, as are most people. The vast bulk of players who kinked off were worried about pay to win items which CCP have said are not going to happen. CCP are not forcing anything onto us like SOE did. You dont have to use the NEX store if you dont want to. Click here if you want to read some profanity regarding why exactly microtransactions are done, and the flawed game design behind them being forced from a business perspective.
Brooks Puuntai Nomadic Asylum 55	Posted - 2011.09.08 14:47:00 - [15] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Brooks Puuntai wrote: If you want to do broad comparisons yes. However look at the comparisons on why SWG made NGE the way they did and compare it to Incarna and CCPs recent attitude and development focus. CCP have wanted to do Incarna from day one. Your still not seeing the similarities. The main reason CCP has done Incarna(in its current form) and the NeX store is because CCP is trying to shift Eve so it appeals to other audiences. This was a similar mentality that NGE was based off of and stripped down different features so they would crack into the "WoW" crowd. As a poster a couple replies above corrected me. CCP has not made an a actual NGE mistake yet however they going down the road to one. Only time will tell if Eve suffers the same fate as SWG.
Rodj Blake PIE Inc. 182	Posted - 2011.09.08 14:47:00 - [16] - Quote I suspect that CCP will be quite happy if Eve limps on (while providing income) for another five years and then closes. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Jowen Datloran Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 24	Posted - 2011.09.08 14:47:00 - [17] - Quote Myxx wrote: Actually, no... CCP is ignoring its playerbase in the face of our ire about the NEX Store and other stuff. SOE ignored the SWG playerbase in the face of its ire about the NGE CCP is trying to push the NEX store hard. SOE tried to push the NGE hard CCP introduced the NEX store to the overwhelming dissatisfaction of its playerbase SOE introduced the NGE to the overwhelming dissatisfaction of its playerbase Hilmar tried to positively spin the NEX Store (leaked email much?) John Smedley posted the above quote and others, trying to positively spin the NGE I could go on... maybe I will at some point if people want to see it. Any game company should ignore whatever the minority on the forums demand. What people say and what they do is very inconsistent. Also, of course they should push/promote their products. It is only if the quality is bad that there is a problem. Otherwise it will be a huge marketing success. The NEX store is NOT "to the overwhelming dissatisfaction of its playerbase". People are complaining about prices and the lack of focus on FiS, but the store itself is a feature you can completly ignore as it has no impact on any other game mechanic. And if you want to spend your PLEX/ISK on accessories for your avatar, it works. There is no dramatically game change with Incarna; all new features have been additional to existing content with the Hangar View as the only real piece of old game mechanic broken. No ship classes have suddenly disappeared, no change to how skill training works or how things explode and disappear for good when you shoot at them have been brought about. Yes, there is maybe a problem with how CCP allocates their resources and the quality of what they release, but they have yet to redo all of the core mechanics of the game in one stroke like SOE did. An EVE NGE would be to turn the it into Star Trek Online and we are (thankfully) still very far from there. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á
Myxx Atropos Group 43	Posted - 2011.09.08 14:52:00 - [18] - Quote Jowen Datloran wrote: Myxx wrote: Actually, no... CCP is ignoring its playerbase in the face of our ire about the NEX Store and other stuff. SOE ignored the SWG playerbase in the face of its ire about the NGE CCP is trying to push the NEX store hard. SOE tried to push the NGE hard CCP introduced the NEX store to the overwhelming dissatisfaction of its playerbase SOE introduced the NGE to the overwhelming dissatisfaction of its playerbase Hilmar tried to positively spin the NEX Store (leaked email much?) John Smedley posted the above quote and others, trying to positively spin the NGE I could go on... maybe I will at some point if people want to see it. Any game company should ignore whatever the minority on the forums demand. What people say and what they do is very inconsistent. Also, of course they should push/promote their products. It is only if the quality is bad that there is a problem. Otherwise it will be a huge marketing success. The NEX store is NOT "to the overwhelming dissatisfaction of its playerbase". People are complaining about prices and the lack of focus on FiS, but the store itself is a feature you can completly ignore as it has no impact on any other game mechanic. And if you want to spend your PLEX/ISK on accessories for your avatar, it works. First off, to point one: That was the mentality SOE had with SWG. Look at where its at right now. To point two: Granted. Point three: You want to argue that the sample that T'amber took was wrong?
baltec1 25	Posted - 2011.09.08 14:59:00 - [19] - Quote Brooks Puuntai wrote: Your still not seeing the similarities. The main reason CCP has done Incarna(in its current form) and the NeX store is because CCP is trying to shift Eve so it appeals to other audiences. This was a similar mentality that NGE was based off of and stripped down different features so they would crack into the "WoW" crowd. As a poster a couple replies above corrected me. CCP has not made an a actual NGE mistake yet however they going down the road to one. Only time will tell if Eve suffers the same fate as SWG. Im not seeing it because its not there. The space game is still here and unchanged where as in SWG the game was gutted for a WoW clone. There was no road to the NGE because they dumped it on us with 2 weeks warning just after a large expansion (that we all payed for and didnt get a refund) This is most likely why when CCP messes up or brings out something I dont use I just don't get phased by it. My outrage bar is set so high I am immune to rage over such small matters
Myxx Atropos Group 43	Posted - 2011.09.08 15:00:00 - [20] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Brooks Puuntai wrote: Your still not seeing the similarities. The main reason CCP has done Incarna(in its current form) and the NeX store is because CCP is trying to shift Eve so it appeals to other audiences. This was a similar mentality that NGE was based off of and stripped down different features so they would crack into the "WoW" crowd. As a poster a couple replies above corrected me. CCP has not made an a actual NGE mistake yet however they going down the road to one. Only time will tell if Eve suffers the same fate as SWG. Im not seeing it because its not there. The space game is still here and unchanged where as in SWG the game was gutted for a WoW clone. There was no road to the NGE because they dumped it on us with 2 weeks warning just after a large expansion (that we all payed for and didnt get a refund) This is most likely why when CCP messes up or brings out something I dont use I just don't get phased by it. My outrage bar is set so high I am immune to rage over such small matters ONCE AGAIN: It isnt in the game details. Its in how its being handled by CCP and the playerbase's reaction.
Alex Sinai Mining And Probing Specialists 25	Posted - 2011.09.08 15:03:00 - [21] - Quote Jowen Datloran wrote: Any game company should ignore whatever the minority on the forums demand. What people say and what they do is very inconsistent. Would you mind reading the linked information I put in OP? Would you care reading SWG NGE Team Leader and the person who was calling the shots there apologizing and very sorry about ignoring their player base and calling forum posters "vocal minority" saying that if they would listen to them it is very well possible SWG would not be shut down? Did you read that at some point the entire player base of SWG NGE was a little more then 10 000 players? That is from 200 000 before NGE. Did you look at linked information at all before you posted here? Sony Entertainment executive at time of NGE, a company hundreds of times larger then CCP and with experience of disaster admit that not listening to player base lead them to Star Wars Galaxies shut down.
baltec1 25	Posted - 2011.09.08 15:06:00 - [22] - Quote Myxx wrote: ONCE AGAIN: It isnt in the game details. Its in how its being handled by CCP and the playerbase's reaction. Already said CCP arn't being as bad in this matter. The rage you have seen from the playerbase here is nothing compared to the rage and hate on the SWG forums. SOE went on a banning frenzy and booted anyone who dissagreed with them be they ranting or making valid points. I doubt CCP has banned the same amount of players in the past 8 years then in the first few weeks of the NGE. Its hard to express to people who wern't there to see it. Quite honestly CCP are being very open and chatty on these new forums.
Myxx Atropos Group 43	Posted - 2011.09.08 15:07:00 - [23] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Myxx wrote: ONCE AGAIN: It isnt in the game details. Its in how its being handled by CCP and the playerbase's reaction. Already said CCP arn't being as bad in this matter. The rage you have seen from the playerbase here is nothing compared to the rage and hate on the SWG forums. SOE went on a banning frenzy and booted anyone who dissagreed with them be they ranting or making valid points. I doubt CCP has banned the same amount of players in the past 8 years then in the first few weeks of the NGE. Its hard to express to people who wern't there to see it. Quite honestly CCP are being very open and chatty on these new forums. orly? Its beginning to reach those levels. Now we're not even allowed to loudly disagree. By the way, I was infact there to see it. The intensity might not be there, but its definitely history repeating itself.
Alex Sinai Mining And Probing Specialists 25	Posted - 2011.09.08 15:13:00 - [24] - Quote Myxx don't argue with Baltec1. That person is of very questionable morality considering his posts been reported and deleted for very good reasons. Yes Baltec1 I remember your comment about **** camps comment you posted. It was removed along with few other comments very fast. But i saw what you posted there. I must say your bans are well deserved. Myxx he's a troll and not the best around. Pointless to discuss anything with people like him.
Kaomond Aliastra Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2011.09.08 15:15:00 - [25] - Quote Not even remotely close to SWG NgE, if you had been there you would know. SWG NgE literally happened overnight, it was announced with no pre-warning that it was happening, put on test centger for us to "test", then implemented live within a week or so, there was no warning, no time to test and no time to protest except to quit. Here, we have known incarna was coming for years, there has been plenty of time in testing on the test server here. Completely different scenarios with no similarity whatsoever.
Myxx Atropos Group 43	Posted - 2011.09.08 15:15:00 - [26] - Quote Alex Sinai wrote: Myxx don't argue with Baltec1. That person is of very questionable morality considering his posts been reported and deleted for very good reasons. Yes Baltec1 I remember your comment about ** camps comment you posted. It was removed along with few other comments very fast. But i saw what you posted there. I must say your bans are well deserved. Myxx he's a troll and not the best around. Pointless to discuss anything with people like him. but... but... but... playing with my prey before utterly crushing them is fun! ... oops... Kaomond wrote:** Not even remotely close to SWG NgE, if you had been there you would know. SWG NgE literally happened overnight, it was announced with no pre-warning that it was happening, put on test centger for us to "test", then implemented live within a week or so, there was no warning, no time to test and no time to protest except to quit. Here, we have known incarna was coming for years, there has been plenty of time in testing on the test server here. Completely different scenarios with no similarity whatsoever. Re-read the thread and see its about how its being handled...
baltec1 25	Posted - 2011.09.08 15:16:00 - [27] - Quote Myxx wrote: orly? Its beginning to reach those levels. Now we're not even allowed to loudly disagree. By the way, I was infact there to see it. The intensity might not be there, but its definitely history repeating itself. Suppose you havent seen the GM lies, CSM goes to war and others on the front page? Or the ones about those graphs the other day or this very thread. CCP have the most lax mods of any MMO I have played.
baltec1 25	Posted - 2011.09.08 15:19:00 - [28] - Quote Alex Sinai wrote: Myxx don't argue with Baltec1. That person is of very questionable morality considering his posts been reported and deleted for very good reasons. Yes Baltec1 I remember your comment about **** camps comment you posted. It was removed along with few other comments very fast. But i saw what you posted there. I must say your bans are well deserved. Myxx he's a troll and not the best around. Pointless to discuss anything with people like him. Wut? Did we both just get trolled?
Myxx Atropos Group 43	Posted - 2011.09.08 15:23:00 - [29] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Myxx wrote: orly? Its beginning to reach those levels. Now we're not even allowed to loudly disagree. By the way, I was infact there to see it. The intensity might not be there, but its definitely history repeating itself. Suppose you havent seen the GM lies, CSM goes to war and others on the front page? Or the ones about those graphs the other day or this very thread. CCP have the most lax mods of any MMO I have played. We'll see how long those remain under the no protesting rule. Did you know that discussing other games on old oope was for a time not allowed and that CCP pann had to intervene because people were mad as hell?
baltec1 25	Posted - 2011.09.08 15:34:00 - [30] - Quote Myxx wrote: We'll see how long those remain under the no protesting rule. Did you know that discussing other games on old oope was for a time not allowed and that CCP pann had to intervene because people were mad as hell? Yea I was one of the mad ones We won after some rather good trollposts. They have even allowed us to get away with a pony thread on the new forums after they banned pony pic threadnoughts. The lack of images wont stop us from trying
Alex Sinai Mining And Probing Specialists 25	Posted - 2011.09.08 15:50:00 - [31] - Quote There are some minor differences between CCP and SoE. One of them is the size of the company another is budgets of course. Something that is point of no return for Sony Entertainment might be much closer for CCP due to extreme differences in financial abilities and market presence. On the other hand CCP have much more room for maneuver then Sony Entertainment due to it's smaller size and less command lines to pass for decisions to be final. To my regret I can't remember who first mentioned SWG NGE and EVE Incarna similarities that bothered me so much to do this research. After reading all what's available on SWG NGE affair I remember all these things that happen after Incarna release and events continue developing as we speak and witness with our own eyes, it stroke me that what happen and continue to are in fact so similar to each other then I can sometimes replace the names of products and see no difference. I decided to share this with the community and see what people think about it. I very much like EVE Online and would not want it to repeat the fate of SWG NGE.
Crunchmeister THORN Syndicate BricK sQuAD. 34	Posted - 2011.09.08 16:09:00 - [32] - Quote Myxx wrote: [quote=baltec1]ONCE AGAIN: It isnt in the game details. Its in how its being handled by CCP and the playerbase's reaction. Correct. This seems to be what people are missing the point on. Screw the game mechanics or how similar or different the games are. It's the attitude that the company is having towards those who pay their salary that's the issue. CCP created the CSM in order to be above that. That way, they could filter stuff out of the "vocal minority" and get an actual true representation of what the player base wants, and have those points presented to them by a council elected by the players. What do they do? They tell the CSM all the nice things they want to hear at summits, give them their plans, etc and send them home happy. Then, they basically ignore everything that happened during CSM summits and go do things whatever way they want, even things that they outright told the CSM they wouldn't do. That's purely contempt for their playerbase and customers. And that's what SOE did (in a nutshell) to their SWG customers, only without a player panel. NGE was a big reason SWG failed, but a lot of that was basically because of the hilier-than-thou attitude that management had with the player base thinking they knew better. Turns out they were wrong, and SWG went down the tubes because of it. I don't think anyone wants that to happen to Eve, but if CCP continues down its current path, Eve will die. If Eve dies, Dust dies with it, and WoD dies as well.
Alex Sinai Mining And Probing Specialists 25	Posted - 2011.09.08 16:22:00 - [33] - Quote Crunchmeister wrote: And that's what SOE did (in a nutshell) to their SWG customers, only without a player panel. Agree with your entire post. And also surprise you may be. Even there is similarities except that nobody was flown anywhere by SoE. EVE Online have CSM. SWG had Senate at some point.
Cipher Jones 36	Posted - 2011.09.08 16:23:00 - [34] - Quote Correct they are exactly the same. Sony has billions of dollars and 100 other ventures, so does CCP. NGE is mandatory, so is NEX. The Star Wars franchise has hundreds of millions of fanbois, so does CCP Soundwave and Zyrg. I touch myself to SWG and I touch myself to the CCP dev calander. I 'liked' OP on all 25 of my alts. See what happens when fat neckbeards try to ride little ponies? The ponies die.
baltec1 25	Posted - 2011.09.08 16:26:00 - [35] - Quote Alex Sinai wrote: SWG had Senate at some point. Now that was a powerless body...
Skex Relbore Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 32	Posted - 2011.09.08 16:32:00 - [36] - Quote Any similarities boil down to and stop at confirmation bias and group think. Beyond that there are too many differences between the handling and quite frankly as critical as I've been of CCP they've been nuch better than SOE was on NGE. SOE always had a cultural problem of not listening to their player base, since they were the first to really make a successful MMO people like Smedley let their ego's get too bloated and lost sight of the importance of listening to the people paying your paycheck. CCP is in a similar situation in that they were pretty much the only company to weather the collapse of the Icelandic economy as such their leaders have decided that their success was due to their brilliance rather than being lucky that they had an asset that wasn't tied to the world of finance. Apparently confirmation bias is a cultural trait of the Icelandic male , It's a problem for everyone but appears to be particularly problematic when it comes to the culture of men in Iceland who are by nature and necessity gamblers and risk takers. Confirmation bias can be generally described as believing a thing mainly because you find the conclusion emotionally satisfying and as such any evidence supporting that belief will be given more weight and viewed with less skepticism that it deserves while conversely under valuing or out right dismissing evidence that undermines the preferred outcome. I think the problem is that much like SEO, CCP imagines this massive and lucrative potential player-base out that there that only require the courage to take a risk to tap it. They've seen for instance the success that other companies such as EA have had with the freemium model and their desire to tap into that potential market has caused them to ignore important distinctions between EA's situation and their own. This over-inflated sense of competence created by their success with EVE has also convinced them that lightning can and indeed will strike not twice but thrice so they've bitten off the additional challenge of two additional triple A titles in the form of WOD and Dust, either concept is big and bold enough that most developers would consider major under takings, both together is quite honestly beyond the capabilities of all but a handful of top tier developers. It further appears that the predictable result of such ambition has materialized in the form of a cash shortfall, Since currently EVE is the only source of cash CCP has access to (banks ain't lending to no one despite having mountains of cash at their disposal) the attention has shifted back to see how much more can be milked out of it. Finally to exacerbate all the other problems we have the issue of Plex, While Plex was nothing short of a stroke of brilliance, in that it allowed CCP to keep both their time rich cash poor players and cash rich time poor players subscribed and active and at the same time undermined the RMT market it has had the unfortunate side affect of becoming an asset that market players have chosen to hoard. This has resulted in a substantial amount of paid time sitting out there on the market as a liability on the CCP books. And while it was indeed nice to have that front end injection of cash it's now a problem in that it's undercutting new injections of cash that CCP needs to keep it's other projects afloat. So someone gets this brilliant idea, "why don't we do a cash shop that uses Plex, this will both remove excess plex from the player market while simultaneously driving demand for Plex beyond what is needed to support existing subscriptions" From a financial perspective it really is brilliant it allows them to make a liability disappear at essentially no cost to the company and increases cash-flow as the Plex that vanish are replaced by people who still want isk or now want items from the Cash shop, and it would have worked too if it weren't for those meddling kids... err I mean those leaked internal documents. Honestly if they'd stuck with cosmetic enhancements only and had implemented a rational pricing structure I think the grumbling would have been minimal, unfortunately for CCP the Fearless document leaked indicating that while pay for ingame advantage wasn't released with Incarna they were somewhere beyond just thinking about it. This is when the nature of their player-base worked against them. EVE is a game that tends to attract the more cerebral player not necessarily smarter than WOW players but much more focused. It's a game that by it's nature rewards those who have patience and are willing to research. We're also a notoriously un-trusting bunch as anyone who plays EVE for any significant length of time learns to view all carrots as potentially poisoned. It's one of the consequences of a "cold harsh universe" As such we put 2 and 2 together, We saw the sloppy half arsed deployment of the CQ we understood that the only value the CQ provides in it's current state is a showroom for items from the cash shop, we watched the EA P2W presentation we read the Fearless document and said "Oh, no you didn't" CCP then completely mismanaged their PR and another leaked document, Hilmar's "Watch what they do not what they say" email came out and all hell broke lose. The question now is will CCP be able to see past their own confirmation bias? Will the massive failure of the Incarna roll out break through the yes men and group think at the top to make Hilmar and the other decision makers re-evaluate their plans and shift resources back to this cash cow. That said the only real similarity shared between the NGE and EVE ends there CCP did eventually address our concerns whether they are being sincere is yet to be determined but it's still a different reaction.
Alex Sinai Mining And Probing Specialists 25	Posted - 2011.09.08 16:37:00 - [37] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Alex Sinai wrote: SWG had Senate at some point. Now that was a powerless body... CSM have any power at all? Seriously? Good joke! Cipher Jones, the more I read your posts the more I respect your sparkling brilliance in catching the essence of things and talent to reflect them in perfect writing be it irony or sarcasm or plain comment.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 130	Posted - 2011.09.08 16:40:00 - [38] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Brooks Puuntai wrote: If you want to do broad comparisons yes. However look at the comparisons on why SWG made NGE the way they did and compare it to Incarna and CCPs recent attitude and development focus. CCP have wanted to do Incarna from day one. 8 years for one dingy motel room... Malcanis' Law: Any proposal made on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Dee Luxx Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 18	Posted - 2011.09.08 16:46:00 - [39] - Quote In all honesty, it was Incarna that brought me back to EVE, as well as a few other returning players I have spoken to in game. But in all honesty, it is the player community that may drive me away again.
Crunchmeister THORN Syndicate BricK sQuAD. 34	Posted - 2011.09.08 16:46:00 - [40] - Quote Skex Relbore wrote: Stuff.... Bravo. Give this man a cookie. He's wrapped it up quite nicely and realistically. That's exactly what's happening. He just expressed it more eloquently than I could. baltec1 wrote: CSM have any power at all? Seriously? Good joke! The CSM is a "feelgood' PR tool to make players think they actually have a voice. Nothing more. However, I believe that this is backfiring on them now that Mittens is the chair. His recent actions to bring to light CCPs incompetence is sheer brilliance IMO. He's a smart guy, a lawyer (if I remember correctly), and it's not easy to fool him. If anyone can do it, it's him. Regardless how I or anyone else may feel about Goons or Mittens in game, he truly does have the best intentions of Eve and its community at heart. I see this going one of 2 ways. Either CCP will pay attention now that they're getting heavy negative press along with a shrinking subscription base and will do what's best for Eve, or they'll permanently dissolve the CSM with the "It's more hassle than it's worth" attitude and continue down the same path which will leave Eve to suffer the same fate as SWG.

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