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Post thoughts on how to solve the BACON issue

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Asika Kazama Warp Asylum.	Posted - 2008.04.21 01:47:00 - [31] Edited by: Asika Kazama on 21/04/2008 01:48:22 Like this But yeah, BACON isn't a bad application tbh. It just highlights the problem with local in the first place. Asika.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.04.21 01:56:00 - [32] Edited by: Chainsaw Plankton on 21/04/2008 02:02:32 Originally by: Spacy Tracy Originally by: Divi Also CCP has wanted to end Local Chat for a while now. No, they haven't. They really really haven't. You're referring (probably about 3 times removed) to an offhand quote from Oveur from about 2 years ago. Don't get your hopes up, bucky. there was a thing in the last alliance tournament come here and then go to extras, ccp oveur, and then go to time 4:49
Diek Ran Amarr Autonums	Posted - 2008.04.21 01:57:00 - [33] Edited by: Diek Ran on 21/04/2008 01:58:17 A) If CCP don't want to have custom tools to read log server output they can encrypt the data like the OP said, probably not symetrically and change that now and than but asymetrically like this: 1) if logerver.exe is hooked up create a public/private key pair on the server 2) send the public key along with a cookie to logserver.exe 3) logserver.exe encrypts monitoring data with public key 4) player sends logserver.exe dump that contains the cookie and the encrypted monitoring data back to the server 5) bug hunters can now decrypt the data with the private key that belongs to the cookie One could still hook into the monitoring before the data is being encrypted, by attaching a debugger or injecting a dll but this will be more complicated then just parsing the output file. B) If CPP want custom tools to access logserver data the community will have to live with tools like BACON.
Gixian	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:07:00 - [34] only issue i have with encrytion is itll eventually get *****ed so changing ever week is a must might even stop it alltogether depending on how long to crak it takes. A delayed logserver would allow other apps that dont use the log file in real time which dont have the same type of affect on the game as a real time ap like bacon. Quite a simple solution in my eyes but only CCP knows how feasible this is to program.
Josh Josh	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:12:00 - [35] I don't really get what all the fuss is about. Maybe I am missing something, does Bacon tell you anything that a quick glance at local wouldn't tell you?
Animin Mannja	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:12:00 - [36] Originally by: Diek Ran 4) player sends logserver.exe dump that contains the cookie and the encrypted monitoring data back to the server Problem is, this step requires the user to upload ten times as much data than previously. Encrypted data doesn't compress well, and the user can't truncate unnecessary info from the file. Also prevents users doing a bit of casual troubleshooting on their own end ("Oh it's crashing on the drivers, damn I haven't updated them in ages"), and causes paranoids to question what data CCP is getting. And the problem with delaying the logs is that you need to be able to log the events leading right up to a bug which locks up your computer.
Ashley Sky Mesopotamia	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:12:00 - [37] Originally by: Zeba BACON will probably last as long as I-Mune. iMune isn't dead. Just on vacation. The next incarnation is going to make an even bigger mockery of the game's alliance system. It's nearly ready, and we're preparing to release it on a slow news day for bugs and terrible game mechanics. Perhaps even timed with the next patch revision where they try to "fix" things. Stay tuned. :)
Daan Sai HAZCON Inc	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:21:00 - [38] Originally by: Josh Josh I don't really get what all the fuss is about. Maybe I am missing something, does Bacon tell you anything that a quick glance at local wouldn't tell you? Yes, if you aren't close enough to glance. Also, the banned OCR macros also only tell you things you could see yourself at a glance. You think cloaking macro miners won't now try to use the BACON method to auto warp and cloak whenever someone comes into the system? Encryption of the log files seems logical. The issue is using Eve client files for unfair game advantage that bypasses the client. BACON may be good intentioned even, but it is still wrong.
Diek Ran Amarr Autonums	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:21:00 - [39] Originally by: Animin Mannja Edited by: Animin Mannja on 21/04/2008 02:16:20 Originally by: Diek Ran 4) player sends logserver.exe dump that contains the cookie and the encrypted monitoring data back to the server Problem is, this step requires the user to upload ten times more data than previously. Encrypted data doesn't compress well, and the user can't truncate unnecessary info from the file. Also prevents users doing a bit of casual troubleshooting on their own end ("Oh it's crashing on the drivers, damn I haven't updated them in ages"), and causes paranoids to question what data CCP is getting. And the problem with delaying the logs is that you need to be able to log the events leading right up to a bug which locks up your computer. Sure, golden rule is that you'll always loose convenience and performance when indruducing security, but it's secure then right? Just depends on what you want. And the order of things is usually: - compress in memory - encrypt in memory - stream to file
Gixian	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:21:00 - [40] Originally by: Animin Mannja And the problem with delaying the logs is that you need to be able to log the events leading right up to a bug which locks up your computer. i mean if you make the delay standardized (say 5 mins behind). Means the GMS add 5 mins on the actual reading in the logs and thats the time the bug that caused a crash happenes. possibly issue with if the client crashes the log file doesnt get any data written onto it. But then again CCP doesnt use the client side logs so whats the point.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:24:00 - [41] Originally by: Gixian Originally by: Animin Mannja And the problem with delaying the logs is that you need to be able to log the events leading right up to a bug which locks up your computer. i mean if you make the delay standardized (say 5 mins behind). Means the GMS add 5 mins on the actual reading in the logs and thats the time the bug that caused a crash happenes. possibly issue with if the client crashes the log file doesnt get any data written onto it. But then again CCP doesnt use the client side logs so whats the point. They use them for bug reports. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Gixian	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:29:00 - [42] the "client" logfile? i think not CCP doenst accept ant information from a player wheather its ingame video or logs because they can be editted. So CCP has some master log somewhere so why do we have a client log for ppl entering your system?
Kvirie Caldari Children of the Wind	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:30:00 - [43] Originally by: Spacy Tracy Originally by: Divi Also CCP has wanted to end Local Chat for a while now. No, they haven't. They really really haven't. You're referring (probably about 3 times removed) to an offhand quote from Oveur from about 2 years ago. Don't get your hopes up, bucky. Yeah nobody should listen to him, it's not like he holds a position of power at CCP, right? What were his words? "Local is not meant to be an intelligence gathering device", something like that? Tell me, when have you ever heard someone of equal or greater rank say something to the contrary?
Animin Mannja	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:32:00 - [44] Originally by: Diek Ran And the order of things is usually: - compress in memory - encrypt in memory - stream to file And you don't find the bug crashing your computer because the logserver had the relevant entries in memory waiting for a big enough block to warrant compressing and encrypting before putting it out to file. These are bug-finding logs. They need to be on disk immediately. You can't wait to gather enough to warrant compression (you can't compress 1 line of text in any appreciable manner), you can't hope that you don't render all the logs unreadable due to problems while writing or encrypting them. Simple text, on disk, now. That's how they work.
Kvirie Caldari Children of the Wind	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:32:00 - [45] Originally by: Gixian i dint think we really need to discuss if BACON should stay or not bc im sure most everyone is on the smae page that its a borderline exploit. possibly shutting off the logserver would work i mean seriously when has ccp used it to solve a petition? Considering that the logserver appears to be there for bug reports, I'd say the uses in a petition are far and few.
Animin Mannja	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:34:00 - [46] Originally by: Gixian the "client" logfile? i think not CCP doenst accept ant information from a player wheather its ingame video or logs because they can be editted. So CCP has some master log somewhere so why do we have a client log for ppl entering your system? Because someone entering the system may be triggering a bug on your client (graphical, crashing, etc). It may not happen often, but it needs to be logged in case it does.
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood ANTHRAX DEATH	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:37:00 - [47] Originally by: Saori Rei from the other thread which was locked...but this is just as applicable in this thread I personally don't -blame- them for this creation. Is it against the spirit of eve any more than intentional node crashing, logofski, log on traps, trade window lag scamming, etc etc? If one can use a out of game mechanic to win fights, then surely one can use out of game mechanics to avoid them? As much as I -do- agree that this is against the spirit of EvE, one would be a hypocrite to believe this is cheating while intentional node crashing, scamming using lag, etc isnt. The fact that a thing can't be stopped doesn't make it right (node crashing). The fact that CCP states that there is nothing they can really do about something doesn't make it right (loggoffski). The fact that these things exist is not a defense for BACON. The fact that, as those 2 GMs in the BACON relaunch thread state, it doesn't technically violate anything in the EULA doesn't mean that it's 'good'. This is, in my opinion, the type of event that warrants editing the EULA, making a 'patch' that puts the new EULA in effect and makes everybody re-click "I agree", and says that this is a no-no. I would also support encrypting these files and having a CCP-provided reader, given that this can be done with little effort or money spent on programmers' man-hours. BACON carrying out the 'tedious' task of watching Local for you is just as bad as a macro or other 3rd party application carrying out the 'tedious' tasks of mining or ratting/missioning for you. And, given that the only way to see anything change in ANY MMO (not just EVE) is to have enough people complain about it, here we are... This isn't WoW - we don't NEED add-ons. If CCP wanted us to have addons, they'd write the GUI in .lua (whatever the hell that is) л┬╥▬─ ~ ~ ~
Diek Ran Amarr Autonums	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:40:00 - [48] Originally by: Animin Mannja (If a software runs into a low memory condition it will most likely stop to work properly.) Yeah, you're right.
Animin Mannja	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:40:00 - [49] Edited by: Animin Mannja on 21/04/2008 02:41:32 Guess some people probably need terms clarified: Logserver = logserver.exe in your EVE directory. It logs everything the client does for purposes of tracking down client-side bugs. May also be useful for recording actions that result in a server-side bug (I suspect server side logs aren't as precise as the client ones for all such cases). It doesn't have anything to do with "The logs" which show nothing.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.04.21 04:30:00 - [50] Originally by: Ashley Sky Originally by: Zeba BACON will probably last as long as I-Mune. iMune isn't dead. Just on vacation. The next incarnation is going to make an even bigger mockery of the game's alliance system. It's nearly ready, and we're preparing to release it on a slow news day for bugs and terrible game mechanics. Perhaps even timed with the next patch revision where they try to "fix" things. Stay tuned. :) Good. Players who decide to make sploits like these open source are my Heros of Eve. There is no reaction without an action. It's BACON!
Jones Maloy Minmatar Unified Naval Command	Posted - 2008.04.21 11:37:00 - [51] wtf is bacon Unofficial Official Jita Fubar Thread
Maglorre	Posted - 2008.04.21 12:11:00 - [52] Originally by: Jones Maloy wtf is bacon Dead pig that has been cured
Nguyen VanPhuoc Minmatar The Halibuts	Posted - 2008.04.21 13:57:00 - [53] Originally by: Maglorre Originally by: Jones Maloy wtf is bacon Dead pig that has been cured cured? it's dead ___________________ What was that word young man!?!
Mohia Matara The Blue Dagger Mercenery Agency	Posted - 2008.04.21 14:09:00 - [54] Originally by: Spacy Tracy Originally by: jongalt if yer not using BACON, you will be at a >severe< disadvantage. Uh, yeah. Whatever. I've had local open and in view my entire Eve career. I have absolutely no need for Bacon. This is one of the worst cases of mountain-from-molehill in the history of mountains. The reason why there is a call for it being banned is for the reasons of precedence. If Bacon is allowed than that means that it will seem normal for other third party tools to be created. (not saying there aren't any around already mind, will just likely open the gates for others since they will be legal by ccp. ___________________ I'm annoying
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2008.04.21 14:38:00 - [55] Originally by: Havohej This isn't WoW - we don't NEED add-ons. If CCP wanted us to have addons, they'd write the GUI in .lua (whatever the hell that is) While we don't need add-ons, what we do need is for everyone to be on a level playing field. That's one thing that these guys have done right, at least. You'd only be kidding yourself to believe that people were not already using programs that do this behind your and CCP's back (and now it's been proven). If i had to predict what's going to happen next, the first thing I'd do is look to the past at things like... gate instas and "portrait packs". Things that provided a much steeper advantage (than BACON) for those who had them while everyone who didn't was left out in the cold. Hmmm. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Alz Shado Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.04.21 14:58:00 - [56] It's going to end up like the app that modified the local portraits to show pilots with negative standings. First, it's called HAX. Then, it's disallowed by CCP. Finally, it shows up in the next patch as a new "Feature". Personally, I don't see a problem with audio alerts for things that are already represented visually. Any automated responses to such notifications should of course be illegal, but if it's one and only purpose is to play a tone when a red plus appears in local then I'd say it's better for immersion to have more audio feedback. Then again, I play with all the Music/SFX in the client muted anyway so the only audio feedback I need is my mates screaming at me in EveVoice or TS. Maybe if the EVE audio engine was more useful and less buggy/annoying it would help the immersive experience to actually turn it on. //// ---------=== []= ---------=== \\\\ Rifter(RedBad) "Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand
joshmorris AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.04.21 15:03:00 - [57] Class it as a macro and ban anybody who uses it. Uber idea solves all !!

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