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Gixian	Posted - 2008.04.20 23:55:00 - [1] Id liek to start a thread on how CCP can stop the use of the logserver from being used for unintended purposes. Ive hered encryption but i doubt it will last for long unless CCP constantly changes the encryption every so often. But another thought i had was delay the logserver by say 10 mins or some such. BACON and Beetracker report the logserver in realtime so if you make it so the logserver isnt realtime the reporting wont work. Thoughts on this please discuss and no i dotn care if you dont like it or not or why you dont like it. I just want ideas from the community for CCP too look over and possibly help them with fixing this broken "feature".
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.04.21 00:00:00 - [2] BACON will probably last as long as I-Mune. It's BACON!
Gixian	Posted - 2008.04.21 00:09:00 - [3] lets hope but tbh i think it has been going on for much longer but it was alliances closly kept sercets. BACON has just shown the light on something that was broken for awhile and now its getting alot of attention. Also im in favor of removing local as a realtime update of whos in a system. But they need to change it with tools for both pvper and for the defending players that are ratting or travelling. Possibly some type of onboard scanner like the one for anomlies but scans the whole system for piloted ships and gives no intel as to who, what or where but lets you know something is out there.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.04.21 00:10:00 - [4] Originally by: Gixian BACON has just shown the light on something that was broken for awhile and now its getting alot of attention. As was the I-Mune founders intentions. It's BACON!
DroneBay Diva AbChao Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2008.04.21 00:13:00 - [5] Hey guys, i have an idea! lets not read the ideas in the other 2 threads! _____________________________________________________________________________
Gojyu Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.04.21 00:13:00 - [6] Originally by: Zeba BACON will probably last as long as I-Mune. I-mune is something they can detect, this is not. I think there's only one way ccp can possibly stop this effectively, and that's to either write a version of blizzard's warden program, or simply lease the code from blizzard itself. This would also have the secondary effect of almost entirely eliminating macro mining and botting, would help ccp find gold buyers as well as gold sellers
Wu Jiun State War Academy	Posted - 2008.04.21 00:13:00 - [7] no idea how it works really. but i assume it somehow accesses files that the log server dumps to query the relevant information. if that is the case those files could be encrypted to keep people from reading them. however maybe it works differently and that wouldn't help at all. the real problem is that ccp obviously has no problem with the existence of this tool. so first step would be to make some noise so they adjust their stance on it. don't hold your breath is my advice though.
Spacy Tracy Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.04.21 00:15:00 - [8] Let's hope it stays. It's an awesome addition to the game and fits it's spirit perfectly. It's another tool in the metagaming workshop. Besides, it generates such childlike shrieks from the weakest of Eve's players - and that amuses me greatly. Bacon rules.
Gixian	Posted - 2008.04.21 00:15:00 - [9] not so sure it if it was there intentions to show the exploit i must have missed it. Also the change to local i dea i had in my last post should make stealth bombers and black ops BS not as useless as they are now. There really expensive and they offer not a whole lot seriously fairly pointless in my eyes.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.04.21 00:15:00 - [10] Originally by: DroneBay Diva Hey guys, i have an idea! lets not read the ideas in the other 2 threads! CCP will fix it by making the info that makes BACON possible unavailable. How they end up doing it won't be made available either.
Gixian	Posted - 2008.04.21 00:19:00 - [11] well the logserver files are stored local on the client machine the bacon program just reads it and plays a noise when something in the logfile meets some type of parameters. If the recording of the logserver to the logfile on the client machine is delayed it eliminates the use of BACON as itll get the information but itll be old news allrdy.
Spacy Tracy Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.04.21 00:20:00 - [12] Already been verified as "not an exploit" by GM's and CCP reps. Sorry, whiners :)
Gixian	Posted - 2008.04.21 00:22:00 - [13] show me a DEV response its not a exploit all ive seen it might not be a exploit. seems to me theres a little bit of a difference between the two dontcha think?
DroneBay Diva AbChao Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2008.04.21 00:23:00 - [14] Originally by: Spacy Tracy Already been verified as "not an exploit" by GM's and CCP reps. Sorry, whiners :) The method of data collect has been deemed not a EULA violation. The product itself has not been deemed not a violation. There is a difference.
Gojyu Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.04.21 00:24:00 - [15] Originally by: Spacy Tracy Already been verified as "not an exploit" by GM's and CCP reps. Sorry, whiners :) It's only not an exploit until they change their mind
Gixian	Posted - 2008.04.21 00:24:00 - [16] ok back on topic then. post ideas and thoughts on how to fix this.
Spacy Tracy Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.04.21 00:27:00 - [17] Originally by: DroneBay Diva The method of data collect has been deemed not a EULA violation. The product itself has not been deemed not a violation. There is a difference. Wishful thinking, tbh. In a week, people will forget it even exists. Oh wells.
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.21 00:28:00 - [18] bacon isn't the problem...the problem will be when people work it into a macro that makes them warp to a safe and cloak as soon as a hostile enters local...which I suspect many of the ratters already have.
Divi	Posted - 2008.04.21 00:28:00 - [19] Originally by: Spacy Tracy Already been verified as "not an exploit" by GM's and CCP reps. Sorry, whiners :) Actually the CCP rep states "it doesn't appear to be a violation but they reserve the right to change their mind". In other words if it has any real effect on PvP play they can outlaw it later. If it has any real impact on PvP I'm sure they will change there tune. Also CCP has wanted to end Local Chat for a while now. BACON doesn't give any real advantage to an attentive player but It could easily be used with Macros in 0.0 space ..... Just a statement of the odvious.
Spacy Tracy Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.04.21 00:30:00 - [20] Originally by: Divi Also CCP has wanted to end Local Chat for a while now. No, they haven't. They really really haven't. You're referring (probably about 3 times removed) to an offhand quote from Oveur from about 2 years ago. Don't get your hopes up, bucky.
DroneBay Diva AbChao Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2008.04.21 00:32:00 - [21] Originally by: Spacy Tracy Originally by: Divi Also CCP has wanted to end Local Chat for a while now. No, they haven't. They really really haven't. You're referring (probably about 3 times removed) to an offhand quote from Oveur from about 2 years ago. Don't get your hopes up, bucky. I love the 'yay the "good guys" win' posts before anybody with any authority at CCP has even commented lol. _____________________________________________________________________________
Divi	Posted - 2008.04.21 00:35:00 - [22] Originally by: Gixian ok back on topic then. post ideas and thoughts on how to fix this. Get rid of local chat (how the data is collected). It makes 0.0 operations more exciting but also it will kill the lone miner. Making 0.0 space more of a team effort. Yes it plays to the gank squads, but it makes intel and communications more important. It also makes Alliances get there sovereignty up so they can use gate guns and such maybe add some listening post that email out when unfriendly activate gates. It would make it harder to hold large amounts of space without a considerable effort to secure it.
Spacy Tracy Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.04.21 00:37:00 - [23] Originally by: DroneBay Diva I love the 'yay the "good guys" win' posts before anybody with any authority at CCP has even commented lol. Who cares about good guys? I just love the ultra-hilarious whining from piratey types. Even if this thing stays around, probably 2% of people in Eve will even be aware of it. Of that 2%, probably 50% will actually use it to some advantage they didn't have before. It's not going to matter even in the slightest. But the insecurities and core whinge factor it exposes in you hardcore Peeveepeers is a sight to behold.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.21 00:42:00 - [24] Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 21/04/2008 00:43:19 Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 21/04/2008 00:42:48 bacon will not last long because bacon tastes good BTW, who the hell named it BACON? you giving away my GSC passcode () () (â;..;)â (")(")
Divi	Posted - 2008.04.21 00:48:00 - [25] Originally by: Spacy Tracy Originally by: Divi Also CCP has wanted to end Local Chat for a while now. No, they haven't. They really really haven't. You're referring (probably about 3 times removed) to an offhand quote from Oveur from about 2 years ago. Don't get your hopes up, bucky. I will make this easy for you .... I don't see how BACON is a real problem yet. I will tell you this if it Breaks a basic dynamic of the game it will be handled one way or another. EVE is a PvP game it was designed around pirate activity and 0.0 space sovereignty. If holding 0.0 space no longer needed security patrols and there was no more loss other than Fleet engagements. A large portion of the game would become stagnant. No loss no flow of isk. The only loss would be empire gank crews and large fleet actions. Those solo macro miners in 0.0 space would all of a sudden see their ore prices drop no demand for new ships. If it does what is promised and no one looses a ship except by choice then 2 things will happen. People leave game because why they play has been taken away from them. People become bored mining for smaller and smaller returns on ore. Wait that is to complicated. If BACON breaks PvP. Eve Being a PVP game... CCP will take action or that steady increase in subs will make a 180 degree turn. Time will tell, and all the complaining will not change that. Honestly I don't think it will have the impact everyone is claiming because something will change first. No game is fun with a "I win button".
jongalt	Posted - 2008.04.21 00:56:00 - [26] if yer not using BACON, you will be at a >severe< disadvantage. anybody thats at least ambivalent about its "moral-cost" to the game, will be using it. theres too much isk at stake not to use it. -jg.
Gixian	Posted - 2008.04.21 01:01:00 - [27] i dint think we really need to discuss if BACON should stay or not bc im sure most everyone is on the smae page that its a borderline exploit. possibly shutting off the logserver would work i mean seriously when has ccp used it to solve a petition?
jongalt	Posted - 2008.04.21 01:13:00 - [28] i disagree that "most players" think that. i think "most players" are ambivalent about its "cost" to eve game-play, and will use anything to give themselves an edge - whatever that is. just look at nano-gangs and FOTM setups for an analogy. ambivalence is an easier attitude to take than standing up for "fairness" in eve when what is at stake - basically - is isk. however, i understand you may believe differently. (personally im gonna use it, until i cant.) dont worry, though - you will never know. ever. -jg.
Spacy Tracy Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.04.21 01:19:00 - [29] Originally by: jongalt if yer not using BACON, you will be at a >severe< disadvantage. Uh, yeah. Whatever. I've had local open and in view my entire Eve career. I have absolutely no need for Bacon. This is one of the worst cases of mountain-from-molehill in the history of mountains.
Spacy Tracy Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.04.21 01:32:00 - [30] Heh. No kidding. People are literally afraid of a ding Big tough PvP'ers indeed
Asika Kazama Warp Asylum.	Posted - 2008.04.21 01:47:00 - [31] Edited by: Asika Kazama on 21/04/2008 01:48:22 Like this But yeah, BACON isn't a bad application tbh. It just highlights the problem with local in the first place. Asika.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.04.21 01:56:00 - [32] Edited by: Chainsaw Plankton on 21/04/2008 02:02:32 Originally by: Spacy Tracy Originally by: Divi Also CCP has wanted to end Local Chat for a while now. No, they haven't. They really really haven't. You're referring (probably about 3 times removed) to an offhand quote from Oveur from about 2 years ago. Don't get your hopes up, bucky. there was a thing in the last alliance tournament come here and then go to extras, ccp oveur, and then go to time 4:49
Diek Ran Amarr Autonums	Posted - 2008.04.21 01:57:00 - [33] Edited by: Diek Ran on 21/04/2008 01:58:17 A) If CCP don't want to have custom tools to read log server output they can encrypt the data like the OP said, probably not symetrically and change that now and than but asymetrically like this: 1) if logerver.exe is hooked up create a public/private key pair on the server 2) send the public key along with a cookie to logserver.exe 3) logserver.exe encrypts monitoring data with public key 4) player sends logserver.exe dump that contains the cookie and the encrypted monitoring data back to the server 5) bug hunters can now decrypt the data with the private key that belongs to the cookie One could still hook into the monitoring before the data is being encrypted, by attaching a debugger or injecting a dll but this will be more complicated then just parsing the output file. B) If CPP want custom tools to access logserver data the community will have to live with tools like BACON.
Gixian	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:07:00 - [34] only issue i have with encrytion is itll eventually get *****ed so changing ever week is a must might even stop it alltogether depending on how long to crak it takes. A delayed logserver would allow other apps that dont use the log file in real time which dont have the same type of affect on the game as a real time ap like bacon. Quite a simple solution in my eyes but only CCP knows how feasible this is to program.
Josh Josh	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:12:00 - [35] I don't really get what all the fuss is about. Maybe I am missing something, does Bacon tell you anything that a quick glance at local wouldn't tell you?
Animin Mannja	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:12:00 - [36] Originally by: Diek Ran 4) player sends logserver.exe dump that contains the cookie and the encrypted monitoring data back to the server Problem is, this step requires the user to upload ten times as much data than previously. Encrypted data doesn't compress well, and the user can't truncate unnecessary info from the file. Also prevents users doing a bit of casual troubleshooting on their own end ("Oh it's crashing on the drivers, damn I haven't updated them in ages"), and causes paranoids to question what data CCP is getting. And the problem with delaying the logs is that you need to be able to log the events leading right up to a bug which locks up your computer.
Ashley Sky Mesopotamia	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:12:00 - [37] Originally by: Zeba BACON will probably last as long as I-Mune. iMune isn't dead. Just on vacation. The next incarnation is going to make an even bigger mockery of the game's alliance system. It's nearly ready, and we're preparing to release it on a slow news day for bugs and terrible game mechanics. Perhaps even timed with the next patch revision where they try to "fix" things. Stay tuned. :)
Daan Sai HAZCON Inc	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:21:00 - [38] Originally by: Josh Josh I don't really get what all the fuss is about. Maybe I am missing something, does Bacon tell you anything that a quick glance at local wouldn't tell you? Yes, if you aren't close enough to glance. Also, the banned OCR macros also only tell you things you could see yourself at a glance. You think cloaking macro miners won't now try to use the BACON method to auto warp and cloak whenever someone comes into the system? Encryption of the log files seems logical. The issue is using Eve client files for unfair game advantage that bypasses the client. BACON may be good intentioned even, but it is still wrong.
Diek Ran Amarr Autonums	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:21:00 - [39] Originally by: Animin Mannja Edited by: Animin Mannja on 21/04/2008 02:16:20 Originally by: Diek Ran 4) player sends logserver.exe dump that contains the cookie and the encrypted monitoring data back to the server Problem is, this step requires the user to upload ten times more data than previously. Encrypted data doesn't compress well, and the user can't truncate unnecessary info from the file. Also prevents users doing a bit of casual troubleshooting on their own end ("Oh it's crashing on the drivers, damn I haven't updated them in ages"), and causes paranoids to question what data CCP is getting. And the problem with delaying the logs is that you need to be able to log the events leading right up to a bug which locks up your computer. Sure, golden rule is that you'll always loose convenience and performance when indruducing security, but it's secure then right? Just depends on what you want. And the order of things is usually: - compress in memory - encrypt in memory - stream to file
Gixian	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:21:00 - [40] Originally by: Animin Mannja And the problem with delaying the logs is that you need to be able to log the events leading right up to a bug which locks up your computer. i mean if you make the delay standardized (say 5 mins behind). Means the GMS add 5 mins on the actual reading in the logs and thats the time the bug that caused a crash happenes. possibly issue with if the client crashes the log file doesnt get any data written onto it. But then again CCP doesnt use the client side logs so whats the point.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:24:00 - [41] Originally by: Gixian Originally by: Animin Mannja And the problem with delaying the logs is that you need to be able to log the events leading right up to a bug which locks up your computer. i mean if you make the delay standardized (say 5 mins behind). Means the GMS add 5 mins on the actual reading in the logs and thats the time the bug that caused a crash happenes. possibly issue with if the client crashes the log file doesnt get any data written onto it. But then again CCP doesnt use the client side logs so whats the point. They use them for bug reports. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Gixian	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:29:00 - [42] the "client" logfile? i think not CCP doenst accept ant information from a player wheather its ingame video or logs because they can be editted. So CCP has some master log somewhere so why do we have a client log for ppl entering your system?
Kvirie Caldari Children of the Wind	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:30:00 - [43] Originally by: Spacy Tracy Originally by: Divi Also CCP has wanted to end Local Chat for a while now. No, they haven't. They really really haven't. You're referring (probably about 3 times removed) to an offhand quote from Oveur from about 2 years ago. Don't get your hopes up, bucky. Yeah nobody should listen to him, it's not like he holds a position of power at CCP, right? What were his words? "Local is not meant to be an intelligence gathering device", something like that? Tell me, when have you ever heard someone of equal or greater rank say something to the contrary?
Animin Mannja	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:32:00 - [44] Originally by: Diek Ran And the order of things is usually: - compress in memory - encrypt in memory - stream to file And you don't find the bug crashing your computer because the logserver had the relevant entries in memory waiting for a big enough block to warrant compressing and encrypting before putting it out to file. These are bug-finding logs. They need to be on disk immediately. You can't wait to gather enough to warrant compression (you can't compress 1 line of text in any appreciable manner), you can't hope that you don't render all the logs unreadable due to problems while writing or encrypting them. Simple text, on disk, now. That's how they work.
Kvirie Caldari Children of the Wind	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:32:00 - [45] Originally by: Gixian i dint think we really need to discuss if BACON should stay or not bc im sure most everyone is on the smae page that its a borderline exploit. possibly shutting off the logserver would work i mean seriously when has ccp used it to solve a petition? Considering that the logserver appears to be there for bug reports, I'd say the uses in a petition are far and few.
Animin Mannja	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:34:00 - [46] Originally by: Gixian the "client" logfile? i think not CCP doenst accept ant information from a player wheather its ingame video or logs because they can be editted. So CCP has some master log somewhere so why do we have a client log for ppl entering your system? Because someone entering the system may be triggering a bug on your client (graphical, crashing, etc). It may not happen often, but it needs to be logged in case it does.
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood ANTHRAX DEATH	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:37:00 - [47] Originally by: Saori Rei from the other thread which was locked...but this is just as applicable in this thread I personally don't -blame- them for this creation. Is it against the spirit of eve any more than intentional node crashing, logofski, log on traps, trade window lag scamming, etc etc? If one can use a out of game mechanic to win fights, then surely one can use out of game mechanics to avoid them? As much as I -do- agree that this is against the spirit of EvE, one would be a hypocrite to believe this is cheating while intentional node crashing, scamming using lag, etc isnt. The fact that a thing can't be stopped doesn't make it right (node crashing). The fact that CCP states that there is nothing they can really do about something doesn't make it right (loggoffski). The fact that these things exist is not a defense for BACON. The fact that, as those 2 GMs in the BACON relaunch thread state, it doesn't technically violate anything in the EULA doesn't mean that it's 'good'. This is, in my opinion, the type of event that warrants editing the EULA, making a 'patch' that puts the new EULA in effect and makes everybody re-click "I agree", and says that this is a no-no. I would also support encrypting these files and having a CCP-provided reader, given that this can be done with little effort or money spent on programmers' man-hours. BACON carrying out the 'tedious' task of watching Local for you is just as bad as a macro or other 3rd party application carrying out the 'tedious' tasks of mining or ratting/missioning for you. And, given that the only way to see anything change in ANY MMO (not just EVE) is to have enough people complain about it, here we are... This isn't WoW - we don't NEED add-ons. If CCP wanted us to have addons, they'd write the GUI in .lua (whatever the hell that is) л┬╥▬─ ~ ~ ~
Diek Ran Amarr Autonums	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:40:00 - [48] Originally by: Animin Mannja (If a software runs into a low memory condition it will most likely stop to work properly.) Yeah, you're right.
Animin Mannja	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:40:00 - [49] Edited by: Animin Mannja on 21/04/2008 02:41:32 Guess some people probably need terms clarified: Logserver = logserver.exe in your EVE directory. It logs everything the client does for purposes of tracking down client-side bugs. May also be useful for recording actions that result in a server-side bug (I suspect server side logs aren't as precise as the client ones for all such cases). It doesn't have anything to do with "The logs" which show nothing.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.04.21 04:30:00 - [50] Originally by: Ashley Sky Originally by: Zeba BACON will probably last as long as I-Mune. iMune isn't dead. Just on vacation. The next incarnation is going to make an even bigger mockery of the game's alliance system. It's nearly ready, and we're preparing to release it on a slow news day for bugs and terrible game mechanics. Perhaps even timed with the next patch revision where they try to "fix" things. Stay tuned. :) Good. Players who decide to make sploits like these open source are my Heros of Eve. There is no reaction without an action. It's BACON!
Jones Maloy Minmatar Unified Naval Command	Posted - 2008.04.21 11:37:00 - [51] wtf is bacon Unofficial Official Jita Fubar Thread
Maglorre	Posted - 2008.04.21 12:11:00 - [52] Originally by: Jones Maloy wtf is bacon Dead pig that has been cured
Nguyen VanPhuoc Minmatar The Halibuts	Posted - 2008.04.21 13:57:00 - [53] Originally by: Maglorre Originally by: Jones Maloy wtf is bacon Dead pig that has been cured cured? it's dead ___________________ What was that word young man!?!
Mohia Matara The Blue Dagger Mercenery Agency	Posted - 2008.04.21 14:09:00 - [54] Originally by: Spacy Tracy Originally by: jongalt if yer not using BACON, you will be at a >severe< disadvantage. Uh, yeah. Whatever. I've had local open and in view my entire Eve career. I have absolutely no need for Bacon. This is one of the worst cases of mountain-from-molehill in the history of mountains. The reason why there is a call for it being banned is for the reasons of precedence. If Bacon is allowed than that means that it will seem normal for other third party tools to be created. (not saying there aren't any around already mind, will just likely open the gates for others since they will be legal by ccp. ___________________ I'm annoying
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2008.04.21 14:38:00 - [55] Originally by: Havohej This isn't WoW - we don't NEED add-ons. If CCP wanted us to have addons, they'd write the GUI in .lua (whatever the hell that is) While we don't need add-ons, what we do need is for everyone to be on a level playing field. That's one thing that these guys have done right, at least. You'd only be kidding yourself to believe that people were not already using programs that do this behind your and CCP's back (and now it's been proven). If i had to predict what's going to happen next, the first thing I'd do is look to the past at things like... gate instas and "portrait packs". Things that provided a much steeper advantage (than BACON) for those who had them while everyone who didn't was left out in the cold. Hmmm. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Alz Shado Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.04.21 14:58:00 - [56] It's going to end up like the app that modified the local portraits to show pilots with negative standings. First, it's called HAX. Then, it's disallowed by CCP. Finally, it shows up in the next patch as a new "Feature". Personally, I don't see a problem with audio alerts for things that are already represented visually. Any automated responses to such notifications should of course be illegal, but if it's one and only purpose is to play a tone when a red plus appears in local then I'd say it's better for immersion to have more audio feedback. Then again, I play with all the Music/SFX in the client muted anyway so the only audio feedback I need is my mates screaming at me in EveVoice or TS. Maybe if the EVE audio engine was more useful and less buggy/annoying it would help the immersive experience to actually turn it on. //// ---------=== []= ---------=== \\\\ Rifter(RedBad) "Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand
joshmorris AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.04.21 15:03:00 - [57] Class it as a macro and ban anybody who uses it. Uber idea solves all !!

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