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Why local can't be removed

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Ravenal The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.04.21 01:53:00 - [1] Lets assume local is gone. You then have to use a scout to keep track of who are going in and out of "your" space. This sorta provides an intel profession which is good in a way. The problem however is then the ability to log out and later log back in very secretly and thus evading any sort of scouting intel that would have caught you. If scanner or something like that could pick up a "logged out signature", that might do the trick. Anyway, it simply removing local and denying people to be able to actively scout for enemies doesnt work. just my opinion... .
Mal Plox Keepers of Balance Legion of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:12:00 - [2] I would like to take this opportunity and not just thank you for starting a new thread on this issue, but also to express my admiration for your dedication to making EVE a better place for us all. I would also like to subscribe to your newsletter. --- And no, Internet isn't broken! Well, it is... but not in the way you think of it.
Kuzya Morozov Gallente The Older Gamers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:16:00 - [3] Seriously, dooooooooon't staaaaaaaaart.
Ravenal The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:19:00 - [4] I have read hundreds of posts about removing local ... dont recall there ever having been made a connection to the issue I raised in the OP. so, thus the observation and hopefully it will help make the game better (specially with this bacon stuff going about). otherwise I'm sorry for "doing it again" ... .
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:28:00 - [5] Patrols, wandering coverts, bored solo inty pilots, good alliance organization with effective com channels.... Nevermind both sides will be equaly blind anyway.
Asika Kazama Warp Asylum.	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:30:00 - [6] =) Asika.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:42:00 - [7] and for the 100th time alliances in 0.0 space would be able to build a pos structure that would show who is using the gate in real time. you would need sov3-4 to build this thus for people that need to watch their space they still can.
Mavolio White Nova Industries Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:46:00 - [8] Originally by: MotherMoon and for the 100th time alliances in 0.0 space would be able to build a pos structure that would show who is using the gate in real time. you would need sov3-4 to build this thus for people that need to watch their space they still can. Its already too easy for the large alliances to defend thier space. If you effectively gave them local and not the attacks it would be even easier.
Monkey Saturday SAS Elite Ops Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2008.04.21 02:50:00 - [9] Local, Bacon, scanning, changing stuffs, why don't we all quit now? Or...we can just play the game? Crazy idea I know.
Triath Lon Keepers of Balance Legion of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2008.04.21 03:00:00 - [10] Originally by: Monkey Saturday Local, Bacon, scanning, changing stuffs, why don't we all quit now? Or...we can just play the game? Crazy idea I know. It's a weekend effect, man. Jita freezes up, forums go nuts... it'll pass
Newbear	Posted - 2008.04.21 03:02:00 - [11] I say keep local but make new ppl entering system anon. You have to make visual contact with them to see their personal info and what ship they are flying ect. Maintains an element of suprise for 1-man pies and keep the game interesting for ratters and mish runners. Sure pretty obvious when local suddenly fills up with 10 anon ppl. Smart pies would send in a solo tackler/scout then the rest of the fleet follows when the target is scramed. One thing I do want in local is a display of other pilots sec status next to their pictures in the local chat box. I hate having to right click to show info on each mofo that enters system.
motomysz DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.21 03:09:00 - [12] I still maintain that the 'Constellation' channel should replace local.
Polcor Rodal Amarr	Posted - 2008.04.21 07:46:00 - [13] Check this one -> Suggestion of Scanner & Sensors Take care, bears.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.21 08:30:00 - [14] Don't remove local!!! That's where the fun smack happens () () (â;..;)â (")(")
Evita Achura Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.04.21 09:07:00 - [15] Originally by: Ravenal ...more words... Original content in my forums?!? oh wait no its not.
Dr Slaughter Rabies Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.21 09:51:00 - [16] Originally by: Ravenal Lets assume local is gone. You then have to use a scout to keep track of who are going in and out of "your" space. This sorta provides an intel profession which is good in a way. The problem however is then the ability to log out and later log back in very secretly and thus evading any sort of scouting intel that would have caught you. If scanner or something like that could pick up a "logged out signature", that might do the trick. Anyway, it simply removing local and denying people to be able to actively scout for enemies doesnt work. just my opinion... Add POS module which generates local for anyone on the modules list (corp, alliance, standings based) when it's up and running. Now you have a way of having a 'home' advantage which takes logistics, skills and ISK. dealing with the UNDERPANTS of eve since 2004
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Vae Victis.	Posted - 2008.04.21 10:46:00 - [17] Originally by: Ravenal Lets assume local is gone. You then have to use a scout to keep track of who are going in and out of "your" space. This sorta provides an intel profession which is good in a way. The problem however is then the ability to log out and later log back in very secretly and thus evading any sort of scouting intel that would have caught you. If scanner or something like that could pick up a "logged out signature", that might do the trick. Anyway, it simply removing local and denying people to be able to actively scout for enemies doesnt work. just my opinion... Removing local requires ships to have some sort of radar system, you can't just kill local... A sensor strenght based radar for all ships that give you this nice plate in your corner with red and blue icons (standings based, configurable with overview) If you hold over a icon on your radar, it will highlight in overview (if appliable) The scanning system has a set of rules already made that can be incorperated into this radar. Don't bring up the ship scanner, its to ankward, and low tech, really. Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions! I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
Saietor Blackgreen The First Foundation Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2008.04.21 11:05:00 - [18] Originally by: motomysz I still maintain that the 'Constellation' channel should replace local. In a way it's even worse than local. It allows you to see beyond the system, which local doesnt. That was discussed in one of devblogs lately, probably even in live one. Bottomline of Dev position on this, is that local is a huge part of game tactics. You cant just remove it without giving any substitute to it. Directional scanner capabilities are way too primitive to provide for this. TYhe whole scanning system of the ship ans well of interface has to be reworked before any removal of local can be talked about.
Soulita Gallente Inner Core	Posted - 2008.04.21 11:08:00 - [19] If u dont like local - minimize the local window - and its GONE! Any further questions?
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.21 11:17:00 - [20] Originally by: Soulita If u dont like local - minimize the local window - and its GONE! Any further questions? Give me the option to force it to be minimized on your screen as well if you are in the same system with me and you have a deal.
Soulita Gallente Inner Core	Posted - 2008.04.21 11:19:00 - [21] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Soulita If u dont like local - minimize the local window - and its GONE! Any further questions? Give me the option to force it to be minimized on your screen as well if you are in the same system with me and you have a deal. Meh, no. I can handle my screen myself, thank you very much.
Cissnei	Posted - 2008.04.21 11:39:00 - [22] because, clearly, pirates and wannabe's need more tools to help them. as if the game isnt already skewed to make pirating far easier than it should be. why not ask for concord to be removed or changed while you are at it.
SketS Minmatar Precision Engineering Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.21 11:47:00 - [23] without local, fluffy cows would die we wouldnd want that now do we? Only an idiot quotes himself -SketS
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.21 11:54:00 - [24] Originally by: Soulita If u dont like local - minimize the local window - and its GONE! Any further questions? Sure, how about this: If I choose to disable local so I can't see you, I don't appear in your local so you can't see me. The only way to view local is to make yourself visible in it. So if Garry the Ganker wants to come looking for Mort the Miner and Ralph the Ratter, he can take his chances doing it the old fashioned way, or rely on his scanning skills. Mort and Ralph can make a similar choice; make themselves visible or rely on their scanning skills. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.21 11:57:00 - [25] Ok, then let's do this. You don't want local removed? Fine. You lose all rights to whine about "afk cloakers" ever again. I think that would be fair.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.21 12:23:00 - [26] Originally by: Cissnei because, clearly, pirates and wannabe's need more tools to help them. as if the game isnt already skewed to make pirating far easier than it should be. why not ask for concord to be removed or changed while you are at it. Um, you realise that local is used by both sides. Your statement seems to be predictated on the idea that pirates and gankers have special magical tools to help them which aren't available to people in Hulks and Ravens. Not so. But the most valuable tool used by pirates and gankers is... (wait for it, wait for it...) LOCAL! How is a pirate going to know if you're mining/ratting/whatever? Well he'll have to go and check the belts. All of them. In every system he goes through. See how that changes things? And how is a pirate going to know if he's been spotted by an alt in a covops and there's a recon gang lurking by your hulk? Oh my! Is it safe for him to attack? He has no idea! See how that changes things? Of course, he could tab into local to see if there's anything there, but only at the cost of making himself visible too. There are map tools, but as those who use them know, they can be a little ambiguous to say the least when it comes to fine-grained, recent information. Making local optional rewards team play and smart players. The people most affected will be macroers, AFKers, casual gankers and people who won't organise. The old style nanoer racing through 12 systems in 10 minutes looking for a cheap gank will be the big loser. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Thirzarr	Posted - 2008.04.21 15:24:00 - [27] Quessing. No local would make "controlling territory" alot more challenging. That in mind would it not "shrink" some systems out of control of alliances? Wouldnt that maybe create something desperately needed by eve: uncontrolled, empty, not-owned space?
Isobe Mitsu	Posted - 2008.04.21 15:32:00 - [28] Edited by: Isobe Mitsu on 21/04/2008 15:33:55 Originally by: Ravenal Lets assume local is gone. You then have to use a scout to keep track of who are going in and out of "your" space. This sorta provides an intel profession which is good in a way. The problem however is then the ability to log out and later log back in very secretly and thus evading any sort of scouting intel that would have caught you. How is this a problem? The "Intel agents" if they were any good would know the person didn't leave and therefor is marked as possible logged out, cloaked or somewhere within the system. It just depends on how baddly you want to know every person in the system.
Blanked Protection Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.04.21 15:51:00 - [29] Me think it pretty sad the rookie channel is gone after 30 days. Plz remove corp channel instead of local there is only smack in it.
Asuka Smith Gallente StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:17:00 - [30] I support the CONSTELLATION chat fix; BECAUSE it adds an entire constellation to smack that maybe one laggy grid simply cannot contain. You can fit two entire alliances in some constellations... Perfect for amazing ventrilo convos and soooo much forum drama! CAOD WOULD EXPLODE! Goons make this happen!
KeeperOf Truth	Posted - 2008.04.21 17:07:00 - [31] Most people look at this issue from alliance point of view and I agree losing local and implementing a more realistic solution can be more interesting for big alliance wars and affairs. On the other hand local is not only used by alliances. Great majority of Eve is staying away from low sec and null sec because they find it too dangerous, there are still people who travels through or lives in these areas. Life in null sec is not easy even with local. You need to watch it all the time, you need to know your friends and enemies, you need to get intel, you need friends who can scout for you if you are moving something valuable through it. Once local is removed staying alive in null sector as a small group or an individual will be going from hard to extremely difficult. It can be local or another tool implemented in the future but if a group of enemy is coming your way, there must be system to warn you in a little bit of advance. At the end , local is not only there for alliances who claims space, but everybody who is leaving highsec. Any decision will be made in the future should take this into account * Keeper Of Truth is the alternative persona of Priest Amarr . He exist for company management and casual forum chatting *
Gimpb	Posted - 2008.04.21 17:52:00 - [32] Just having the directional scanner auto-update would be a great replacement for local, IMO. It would be like local is now, but only within 15 AU, and wouldn't show cloaked ships. I'm sure some tweaks might to cloaking devices, nanos, probes, or stuff like that. It would also greatly increase the value of cov ops or force recons. Force recons would show up in the strangest of places and cov OPs would be invaluable for finding people without showing up on their scanner. Even the lowly astrometrics frigates could be hot stuff for using a long range probe to find what orbital body someone's at and then jumping in on top of them with only a few seconds on the scanner.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.04.21 17:56:00 - [33] Maek it so nobody can logof in spaec escept at POS or stasion. Prublem sovled. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Recruitment -KB-
LastAlt	Posted - 2008.04.23 01:03:00 - [34] Haha local isnt going anywhere and if it does.. You think low sec and 0.0 are empty now? Think people leaving corps in empire that have been decced is a problem now? Haha you havnt seen anything yet..
Hannobaal Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.23 01:12:00 - [35] Originally by: LastAlt You think low sec and 0.0 are empty now? Umm, no.
LastAlt	Posted - 2008.04.23 01:25:00 - [36] Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: LastAlt You think low sec and 0.0 are empty now? Umm, no. Well most people do and most people look at ways to get more people out there.
DigitalCommunist Obsidian Core	Posted - 2008.04.23 01:28:00 - [37] Man, that is such a bad excuse. When somebody logs off you have 60 seconds of extra visibility on the scanner. Guess how many seconds of extra visibility you have in local? ZERO Deth 2 lokal, ty. _______________________________ http://epicwords.net/
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2008.04.23 14:27:00 - [38] If you remove Local, entire Fleets will just pass each other in the night. Add in the effects of Lag, and what do you get? "Ok, all support jump and engage" "Lag is bad...anyone load yet?" "I've loaded, but I don't see anyone on the gate." "Wonder if its cuz you're still lagged, or cuz there's actually no one there?" "No Idea...wait... I got a flashy wallet. I'd say we got hostiles" "Anyone else see anything?" "Well, I see some wrecks, but only a few ships" "Hmmm.. could be they are baiting us, or maybee that's all there are..." "Maybee we should all scatter to planets and gates to see if we can locate a fleet? Shouldn't cost us more than 20 Frigs or so to find out." "Well, its better than all of us sitting on the gate without any knowledge about any Titans in system.. go for it." "We came to conquer this system. I need a frig to go to every planet, station, gate and moon. Sit there and look for the fleet." "FC, there are 43 moons in this system. That's half our fleet that will be scattered among the moons" "Get more ships here then! We need to know if the enemy is massing against us!" ... two hours later ... "FC, it seems the enemy fleet jumped out two hours ago. All the lag is us running around system looking for them" "Damm...ok, everyone get on the next gate. Support, jump in and engage" IMO, the only people who want to see Local go away are the Tewwible PieWrats who want easy ganks.
Lord Zoran House of Tempers	Posted - 2008.04.23 14:33:00 - [39] Originally by: MotherMoon and for the 100th time alliances in 0.0 space would be able to build a pos structure that would show who is using the gate in real time. you would need sov3-4 to build this thus for people that need to watch their space they still can. and what about npc 0.0..... imo local should stay, if it went it would make force recons overpowered as anyone ratting would have no chance.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.04.23 14:41:00 - [40] Originally by: motomysz I still maintain that the 'Constellation' channel should replace local. With only people speaking in it when you're there showing? Or else it'll play even more into the large alliances hands. Yes I don't know how it works today, that's the first channel that gets dumped on re-installation. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Larkonis Trassler Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.04.23 14:42:00 - [41] Originally by: Lord Zoran Originally by: MotherMoon and for the 100th time alliances in 0.0 space would be able to build a pos structure that would show who is using the gate in real time. you would need sov3-4 to build this thus for people that need to watch their space they still can. and what about npc 0.0..... imo local should stay, if it went it would make force recons overpowered as anyone ratting would have no chance. Ever heard of aligning? 5 second targetting delay is moar than long enough to get away.
Fifth Horseman	Posted - 2008.04.23 14:50:00 - [42] Whatever CCP do, even if they change nothing, I'm not going to like it, and I'm going to whine and complain, even before it is finalised, then again when it is deployed, then again when I lose a ship perceivably to the change, or lack thereof. I'm itching to find out what I come up with in my complaint, so if they could get a move on, that would be great. --- Boring & Banal. Just how CCP like it.
Zaiyo Modi	Posted - 2008.04.23 15:09:00 - [43] Edited by: Zaiyo Modi on 23/04/2008 15:11:06 Originally by: Princess Jodi If you remove Local, entire Fleets will just pass each other in the night. It makes sense that a scout, cloaked or not, would be valuable to keep an eye on the gate. They might even consider any other visible agile ship hanging around a gate to lure to a fight or stick around. And usually, pvp people are usually keen on working the scanner to try to pick up signals from potential targets flying around. So finding targets wouldn't be that hard i think. Originally by: Princess Jodi "We came to conquer this system. I need a frig to go to every planet, station, gate and moon. Sit there and look for the fleet." Advice: Goto a planet and do a 360 deg scan, if nothing is showing on scan, move to next planet. Not that hard. Ths issue of lag is interesting, but hardly a problem symptomatic of having local nerfed. Only with a massive warp in with a fleet would you encrourage a lag spike. I have elsewhere suggested a gate idea that widens the entry area, say 50-100km off a gate, which would make any crippling lag ease on the losses, because everyone is not in a killzone right away.

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