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Malvada
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Posted - 2004.04.25 07:29:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Malvada on 25/04/2004 07:31:57
Hm...
All this talk about jet cans! I don't care what "jettison" means technically... Who says you have to not want something to jettison it? Are people really such narrow-minded morons?
 <condescending voice>Should we change the command name to something that'll be more agreeable? Hm?</condescending voice>
Personally, I'm not a miner, so I couldn't care less about it from their side of things, but... I don't like prey that's powerless to fight back. How's a girl supposed to have any fun if the poor carebear miners don't even have a chance to grow a pair and defend their claim, all because their hands are tied by the threat of instantaneous annihilation by a merciless gank-squad of shiny Concord ships?
I'd invite a smarter Concord, one that at least gives someone the right to defend what they claim as theirs. Would give me a chance to get some target practice in.
Viceroy > so whats the problem?
the hlynsiman > a former corp member of mine stole some money of me and i need it back
Viceroy > did you earn the money by commiting terrorist acts?
the hlynsiman > no by mining
Viceroy > terrorist mining? |
Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.04.25 07:50:00 -
[32]
Use
Secure
Cargo
Canisters
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Silverlancer
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Posted - 2004.04.25 13:20:00 -
[33]
 Originally by: Viceroy
Use
Secure
Cargo
Canisters
Just a note--our corp mines in 0.4 space and below ONLY. That way we can kill ore stealers  . But just a note about secure cans--they're GREAT for mining alone in dangerous areas without an indy, but they're worthless for mining ops as they can't be anchored anywhere near each other and are hell to position.
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.04.25 13:25:00 -
[34]
Well everything has a drawback. If you want your ore to be safe, you have to deal with the drawback. Just like in every other aspect of the game.
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Malvada
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Posted - 2004.04.25 20:58:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Viceroy
Well everything has a drawback. If you want your ore to be safe, you have to deal with the drawback. Just like in every other aspect of the game.
yes, everything has a drawback... except if you're an orethief. everything's in your favor in .5+ space... *sigh* no challenge in it at all. how boring...
Viceroy > so whats the problem?
the hlynsiman > a former corp member of mine stole some money of me and i need it back
Viceroy > did you earn the money by commiting terrorist acts?
the hlynsiman > no by mining
Viceroy > terrorist mining? |
Digital
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Posted - 2004.04.25 23:01:00 -
[36]
I can not belive this topic continues to come up, over and over again people still create a post about it.
Jetson means disregarding your unwanted stuff, plain and simple , after this is done it is no longer yours.
It is not like you do not have an alternative to Jetson mining.. that is why secure containers exist!!!
And on that note I do not believe CCP will make this "so called" change in shieva , Jetcan mining was not part of the game design anyway, that is why they make "Secure Cans".. sheesh.
To end this topic, u have a choice, and if you use the jetcan method they you run the risk, if you use the secure can method then you are safe.
End of story, let's close this topic once and for all it's getting old very quick.
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Malvada
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Posted - 2004.04.26 00:06:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Digital
Jetcan mining was not part of the game design anyway...
mmm... player Jumpp had a few things to say about "intended" game design.
Originally by: Jumpp
I've played many online games, and in each one there's been a debate in which arguments of the following form were deployed:
"<do something the way I think it should be done, though I personally don't do it>, like we're all supposed to do. There was never meant to be a <innovative technique that wasn't forseen by the developers but has since become a fundamental part of the game> available, and there still isn't supposed to be one."
Such arguments, of course, never have any effect apart from bringing richly-deserved disapprobation to the speaker, yet they're common in all games.
Responding to such an argument is difficult. It's easy to simply return the ignorance and bitterness that the original writer conveys, and that's what I usually do.
It's a lot of work to unpack the various misconceptions that underlie arguments of that form, and before undertaking such a task one has to be clear that it's a simple intellectual exercise done for one's own enjoyment, without any hope of actually reaching the writer in question--A person who was prepared to see reason couldn't have written the offending passage in the first place.
Nevertheless, here I go:
Error #1: The original intentions of the game designers are of primary importance.
Wrong, and they'll be the first to tell you that. Game designers aren't omniscient. The game one meant to make is never quite like the game one finally produces, and there will be lots of surprises along the way. (To take an example from EverQuest, the monk "feign death" ability was never intended as a tool to separate monsters from their fellows for easier harvest, yet this technique became the foundation of the monk experience.)
Sometimes the unintended consequences of design decisions are bad and need to be changed. Some are bad but better left alone, and some are happy accidents that make the game better. In any event, the "original intent" of the game designers isn't an argument-ender. There's lots more at work here.
Error #2: Inconvenient facts on the ground don't exist.
Eve has a well-tuned economy. That economy is, in large part, built on mining. Not the mining that may have existed on a whiteboard in some developer's office three years ago, but the mining as it exists and is practiced right this moment. A casual "that's not what was intended--change that" while remaining either ignorant of or indifferent to the consequences is the sort of intellectually negligent dilettantism of which bad low-level managers are made. Congratulations. You've got a big future ahead of you: here's a cheap suit and a clip-on tie.
i think he has a point. or two or three, really.
Viceroy > so whats the problem?
the hlynsiman > a former corp member of mine stole some money of me and i need it back
Viceroy > did you earn the money by commiting terrorist acts?
the hlynsiman > no by mining
Viceroy > terrorist mining? |
Digital
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Posted - 2004.04.26 01:51:00 -
[38]
Yep that is a very good post by Jumpp.
All I know that CCP have an important choice to make before taking any action on this.
They can either keep the game how it is, which is fun and dangerous at the same time.. or they can do down the path's on Ultima Online and really screw the game over by being "carebear friendly" .. anyone who has ever played this game will know what I am talking about.
Silverlancer if you want to play a "carebear" game then go and play Earth & Beyond... OHHH that's right it shut down because it was boring as hell because it had no pvp related danger!!.. moron.
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Caeneus
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Posted - 2004.04.26 02:24:00 -
[39]
I must admit when I mine I use a can to mine into. A jettisoned can at that. Why I hear you ask?
Secure cans simply don't do they job they were intended for. Their capacity is crap, they are a pain to position and deploy, the list goes on.
I'd rather take the risks ****ing about with a jett can than a secure can. But should somebody not in my corp loot the can while i'm there I should get the option of shooting the vermin whereever I am. Hopefully the new flagging system will make this an option.
Lets face it if left to concord they would shoot the wrong person!
Can't think of anything witty to put here. |
Malvada
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Posted - 2004.04.26 03:00:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Digital
They can either keep the game how it is, which is fun and dangerous at the same time.. or they can go down the path's on Ultima Online and really screw the game over by being "carebear friendly" .. anyone who has ever played this game will know what I am talking about. Silverlancer if you want to play a "carebear" game then go and play Earth & Beyond... OHHH that's right it shut down because it was boring as hell because it had no pvp related danger!!.. moron.
...wtf. how is having your ore stolen and not being able to do anything about it "pvp related danger"? if anything, a game design that ALLOWS miners to protect their ore would encourage MORE pvp danger and combat. if anything, the orethieves against making aggression a valid response to oretheft are the carebears, those that wish to avoid combat.
the miners who wish to fight those that steal from the results of their efforts are NOT carebears, which by definition are those that wish to avoid combat...
am i getting this wrong, or are you the moron?
Viceroy > so whats the problem?
the hlynsiman > a former corp member of mine stole some money of me and i need it back
Viceroy > did you earn the money by commiting terrorist acts?
the hlynsiman > no by mining
Viceroy > terrorist mining? |
Digital
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Posted - 2004.04.26 03:50:00 -
[41]
What the hell are you on about, first off lets put it plain and simple... there is no such thing as an "ore thief"... if you jetson ore (or anyting for that matter)you are saying that it is no longer wanted material and you are disgarding into space. This is what jetson is for, to get rid of things out your ship you no longer want.
The jetson idea was not originally designed for "mining" , yet as jumpp's post (which u put up) explains jetson mining is something that has been developed over time by players.. this was never endorsed by CCP and I have seen nothing to say it is.
Now until such time as it becomes a "standard" endorsed way to mine I do not see any validity to people's complaints when ore gets removed from a public can.
Secure can's are designed for mining and that is that, sure they do not hold as much ore but obvioulys CCP wanted it that way otherwise they would have made secure cans as big as loot cans.
Ok lets put this out there for the "simple" people who obviously still don't understand...
A) Use Secure Can = SAFE
B) Use Jetson Can = UNSAFE
can not get much more simple than that. If some people out there do not understand this now then I think there is no hope.
And to sum up your "quote", well you obviously have not played UO at any stage so it will mean nothing to you.
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Malvada
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Posted - 2004.04.26 04:36:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Malvada on 26/04/2004 04:42:46
(for typo) 
Originally by: Digital
What the hell are you on about...
i see your mouth moving, but i'm not hearing anything...
you claim you're against carebearing the game, but are against a change that would eliminate the carebear occupation of ore-thieving. you're not fooling anyone by saying it doesn't exist just because can mining as it exists is not what the Devs intended. please see Jumpp's post again. you seemed to have read and understood it once, but now it's suddenly so much brain-fog in your head! i say this because all you do is flatly oppose all his ideas regarding the state of the game vs. what the Devs intended, among other points he makes.
let's make THIS really simple for YOU.
ore thieves swiping ore in .5 = carebear game tactic (taking action against others while avoiding combat)
giving miners the opportunity to defend their claim to the ore they've placed in a jet can with the irrefutable intention of keeping it = introducing more combat into the game, decidedly a reduction in said carebear factor.
i don't care what the definition of "jettison" is. the definition of the word doesn't change Joe-Blo Miner's intention of keeping the effing ore. refuting such an idea is very close-minded of you. you literally interpret things only because that literal interpretation enables you to argue. why not try thinking outside the box, k?
let's have some common sense here, okay? if you take the results of someone's work, something they feel they have a claim to, why shouldn't they have a right to defend that claim? why not? would it suddenly make the game so bad if miners in .5 and up could attack you for taking ore out of their can?
would it make the game less fun? that's really the issue. we play this game to have FUN. would it make the game less fun? if so, how?
i believe it would make the game more fun.
a simple message stating that the can is someone else's and you'll be vulnerable to attack should you take anything from the can would be fine. also, you could "invite" players to have access to your can, like you invite them into convos. players would know not to open a can unless they were invited (cleared as a non-thief) by the person that created the can, unless they want to be open to attack. this would eliminate the chance of using this as an exploit (tricking others into opening your can so you can attack them).
it's very simple. would it make the game less fun? yes or no, and why?
Viceroy > so whats the problem?
the hlynsiman > a former corp member of mine stole some money of me and i need it back
Viceroy > did you earn the money by commiting terrorist acts?
the hlynsiman > no by mining
Viceroy > terrorist mining? |
Adriana
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Posted - 2004.04.26 04:53:00 -
[43]
I would personally love it if they were flagged as killable for stealing ore, but for god sakes please make it a player killable switch, not a concord one. If they steal my ore I wantto blow them up myself and not sit there while concord does it.
Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
-Napoleon Bonaparte |
Digital
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Posted - 2004.04.26 04:57:00 -
[44]
Malvada I see all points you have said there, and they are very valid, but...
What about if I for instance have some loot I have picked up that I no longer want, so I jetson it into space as it is no longer any use to me... now what happens to these items if a system such as yours comes in?.. it would basically mean that no one would be able to claim those items without being branded a criminal.
Jetson is meant so you can get rid of unwanted items, but also allow others to claim those items if they have a use for them..... surely u can not dispute this fact?
Now if you were to use a system where ore in a jetson can was classified as "still owned" and all other items that were jetson'd were not.... well you can only see the exploits starting here against newbies. (eg jetson 1 ore and fill it with other loot.. fill in the rest).
Everyone only thinks about jetson'd ore when they talk about criminal flagging, but they never think about jetson'd items (loot).
I use jetson all the time when hunting large NPC's and your hull gets full, and u disgard lesser value items to fit in the more valuable item.
Just a thought.....
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Malvada
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Posted - 2004.04.26 05:14:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Malvada on 26/04/2004 05:18:23
Originally by: Digital
Malvada I see all points you have said there, and they are very valid, but...
What about if I for instance have some loot I have picked up that I no longer want, so I jetson it into space as it is no longer any use to me... now what happens to these items if a system such as yours comes in?.. it would basically mean that no one would be able to claim those items without being branded a criminal.
not at all. they wouldn't loose security status or get attention from Concord. they would simply be open to attack from you. as a courtesy to others, there could be a setting that enables the person jettisoning the can to mark it as "owned" or "up for grabs". really, i think it should be defaulted to "up for grabs", and marking a can as "owned" should be something the jettisoner has to do.
Quote:
Jetson is meant so you can get rid of unwanted items, but also allow others to claim those items if they have a use for them..... surely u can not dispute this fact?
what something was meant for and what it's used for are often two very different things. this point has been made VERY well in Jumpp's post. personally, i find it ridiculous that a can meant for holding unwanted and spare modules from npc kills to be designed to hold 27500m¦! modules, as tiny as they are, hardly need that amount of space. it would take FOREVER to fill it up! does everyone really believe that the Dev responsible for setting the volume of the jettison can just came up with that figure out of thin air, that he or she had no inkling at all that they would be used for mining? does that seem likely to you?
Quote:
Now if you were to use a system where ore in a jetson can was classified as "still owned" and all other items that were jetson'd were not.... well you can only see the exploits starting here against newbies. (eg jetson 1 ore and fill it with other loot.. fill in the rest).
Everyone only thinks about jetson'd ore when they talk about criminal flagging, but they never think about jetson'd items (loot).
I use jetson all the time when hunting large NPC's and your hull gets full, and u disgard lesser value items to fit in the more valuable item.
Just a thought.....
as i said, the can would be tagged as owned, not the contents. taking ANYTHING out of the can would enable to owner to attack you, but only if you did so after being notified that the can had been tagged as owned and of the consiquences of removing the contents of the can.
i do not see how this could be exploited. it would finally introduce some excitement and challenge into ore-thieving, and give miners some small measure of defense against ore-thieving. everyone would have fun.
Viceroy > so whats the problem?
the hlynsiman > a former corp member of mine stole some money of me and i need it back
Viceroy > did you earn the money by commiting terrorist acts?
the hlynsiman > no by mining
Viceroy > terrorist mining? |
Digital
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Posted - 2004.04.26 05:28:00 -
[46]
That could work, who knows...I think this arguement could go on for ever, so...
Guess we will need to leave it to CCP to decide if they change how jetson works & doesn't work.
Until then though I guess it will be business as usual for everyone out there 
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Malvada
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Posted - 2004.04.26 05:57:00 -
[47]
agreed.
Viceroy > so whats the problem?
the hlynsiman > a former corp member of mine stole some money of me and i need it back
Viceroy > did you earn the money by commiting terrorist acts?
the hlynsiman > no by mining
Viceroy > terrorist mining? |
Vogon
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Posted - 2004.04.26 12:12:00 -
[48]
....Business as usual...I like the sound of that....
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DarkStar251
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Posted - 2004.04.26 14:36:00 -
[49]
Edited by: DarkStar251 on 26/04/2004 14:38:55
Sooooo.... If i train an alt in a newbie corp, so the tag doesnt show on the can, then goto a newbie system and drop a can near a newbie station of some random loot, I can then hang about 10km out and wait for some unsuspecting newbie to open it, and blow them to hell.
I'm not that much of a greifer, but I know people that are.
The solution to all this is to simply ban battleships from 0.5 and up, on the grounds that the empires no longer tolerate substantial fleets of dubious empire affiliation in their home systems. This way secure space is for the newbies as it was designed, and miners can shoot ore theives if they like.
I have a strong distate for the Apoc+8 miner 2s+10 harvie stripmining ships I see in empire space, mining worthless ore when they could make 5x as much isk by removing one of the miners in favour of a tach and the harvies in favour of 6 ogres and moving to 0.4 and down (which they wont do for fear of the phantom 'ebil pirates' in SUCH insecure space. Plus they might have to actually play the game then instead of getting their mouse macro to do it for them while they work. For these people I suggest the game 'Progress Quest' where NO ACTUAL PLAYING is required.
In my opinion if the only discouragement for these people who do so much harm to the game is to be nerfed, then these stripminers should also be flagged as criminals, attackable by anyone, for large scale mineral theft from the systems claimed by Empires. I'd pod you myself but you are not worth the effort.
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2004.04.26 16:15:00 -
[50]
bla bla bla.
Silver in true form again.
Silver, i didnt bother to check if anyone here pointed this out, but afaik ccp is NOT going to make the criminal flag system bound to concord response for ore theft.
The criminal flag system will most probably mean that anyone taking the ore will be fair game to everyone else for a set period of time, as with contraband goods.
Concord will only intervene on criminal acts of a more serious nature. eg, those that warrant destruction of your ship.
So dont count your furry blessings yet m8
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Malvada
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Posted - 2004.04.26 20:31:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Malvada on 26/04/2004 20:33:04
Originally by: DarkStar251
Sooooo.... If i train an alt in a newbie corp, so the tag doesnt show on the can, then goto a newbie system and drop a can near a newbie station of some random loot, I can then hang about 10km out and wait for some unsuspecting newbie to open it, and blow them to hell.
I'm not that much of a greifer, but I know people that are.
as i said, if the can has been tagged as owned (something the jettisoner has to do manually, on purpose) then a warning would pop up. this is not possible to exploit. all those involved would know exactly what was going on...
thread i made in the Idea Lab detailing this idea
your idea of limiting battleships to low-sec space is far more drastic, and kinda wishy-washy. i could never understand it. why would anyone risk a battleship to a loss at Concord's hand?
Viceroy > so whats the problem?
the hlynsiman > a former corp member of mine stole some money of me and i need it back
Viceroy > did you earn the money by commiting terrorist acts?
the hlynsiman > no by mining
Viceroy > terrorist mining? |
Rizmordan Hillgotlieb
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Posted - 2004.04.26 21:24:00 -
[52]
I don't know how the hell this is happening but I find myself agreeing with Viceroy more and more everyday.
For those who have beef with unsecure cans and getting your ore snagged...
1. Stop crying
2. Get a tissue
3. Dry your eyes and blow your nose
4. Buy a couple of secure containers
5. Deposit them strategically in the belt
6. Mine your heart out
7. Haul it back to station
8. Pour youself some milk
9. Have a cookie!
Posting for Numbnutz |
Malvada
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Posted - 2004.04.26 23:10:00 -
[53]
i've never been the victim of ore theft, as i don't mine...
the changes i'm suggesting are centered around the idea of making the game more fun, not turning the tables completely against ore-thieves.
i don't want to make jet cans 100% secure, but i do want to give the miners the opportunity to try to reclaim what someone took, and to make ore theft a bit of an actual challenge instead of the no-risk ebil-carebear underhanded tactic it is today.
what is wrong with wanting to make the game more fun?
Viceroy > so whats the problem?
the hlynsiman > a former corp member of mine stole some money of me and i need it back
Viceroy > did you earn the money by commiting terrorist acts?
the hlynsiman > no by mining
Viceroy > terrorist mining? |
Grimster
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Posted - 2004.04.26 23:29:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Rizmordan Hillgotlieb
I don't know how the hell this is happening but I find myself agreeing with Viceroy more and more everyday.
For those who have beef with unsecure cans and getting your ore snagged...
1. Stop crying
2. Get a tissue
3. Dry your eyes and blow your nose
4. Buy a couple of secure containers
5. Deposit them strategically in the belt
6. Mine your heart out
7. Haul it back to station
8. Pour youself some milk
9. Have a cookie!
LMAO! Excellent post Riz
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Dexter Rast
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Posted - 2004.04.27 00:03:00 -
[55]
Quote:
i don't want to make jet cans 100% secure, but i do want to give the miners the opportunity to try to reclaim what someone took
thats an easy one, just follow the scavanger around until he is stupid enough to drop all the ore from his/her cargo for anyone to pick up
otherwise there is a tremendously safe way to mine, dont jettison anything you want... wow can it realy be that simple i wonder
secure cans are their for a reason, use them
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Malvada
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Posted - 2004.04.27 03:20:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Malvada on 27/04/2004 03:28:06
Originally by: Dexter Rast
thats an easy one, just follow the scavanger around until he is stupid enough to drop all the ore from his/her cargo for anyone to pick up
otherwise there is a tremendously safe way to mine, dont jettison anything you want... wow can it realy be that simple i wonder
secure cans are their for a reason, use them
k, why not try to wrap your head around the notion of coming up with your own comments instead of merely regurgitating the same close-minded idiotic tripe that everyone else does whenever someone suggests a change to jet cans?
what is the big deal?!
what i'm suggesting would give miners a chance to fight for what they claim as theirs. i want this because ore-theft is stupid and boring as it is. no fun at all. i want them to fight back. i like a good fight. anyone against this sort of idea is anti-pvp.
what's another word for anti-pvp... hm... what was it...
oh yeah...
CAREBEAR
i'm sowwy if the big scawy minas fwighten you... you don't hafta fight dem if you don't wanna...
Viceroy > so whats the problem?
the hlynsiman > a former corp member of mine stole some money of me and i need it back
Viceroy > did you earn the money by commiting terrorist acts?
the hlynsiman > no by mining
Viceroy > terrorist mining? |
Caeneus
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Posted - 2004.04.27 03:50:00 -
[57]
As I said earlier I don't mind ore thieves, everyones got to make a living. But I would like the oppertunity to swat them occasionally. It would make the ore thieves being a little more cautius, picking targets based on threat etc etc.
That and secure cans could be improved, a little more capacity. Since the largest secure can costs the same as a hauler but has roughly 40% less capacity than a hauler. Of course it would be silly having cans bigger than a haulers own capacity, how else would you drop them.
A good idea would be to have cans based on a lvl of hauler. So you could deposit a can with the base value of 3500 from your ship and increased from that point.
Not something I would do personally, when I have to mine I have a hauler next to me filling up as I go along. All an ore thief would get from me is one defender missle.
Can't think of anything witty to put here. |
Bared Bel'Medar
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Posted - 2004.04.27 15:30:00 -
[58]
I have to agree with on silverlancer on this one. I think once the can is out, its not yours. however. I look for any LEGIT excuse to kill somebody. So I say, let the can stay the way it is. However (again). I like the flagged part, except for in corp wars. If i ever get up to Empire again, and I see a phantom squad guy, I want to pod him and take his stuff, not be attacked by the uber griefers in CONCORD.
and ffs Silver Lancer, fix your sig man!
I am Jack's broken moral compass. I am Jack's STILL trapped in eve limbo. maybe not for much longer... |
Maximo Prime
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Posted - 2004.04.27 16:24:00 -
[59]
I remember when I was a noob back when I was still in trial form I saw a can just outside a station in 1.0
well because I was a noob and dont read the rules I took the stuff in the can and..well nothing happened. I went on my way. Ignorant and all as a noob
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Lilan Kahn
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Posted - 2004.04.27 19:30:00 -
[60]
gfusse with ebil vriminal flaging i can go ore steling in a apoc or some thing nasty.....
Originally by: Eris Discordia
We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
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