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Why are target painters unpopular?

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Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2008.04.24 00:55:00 - [1] I read the eve forums alot more then I should. The subject of target painters and their suckiness comes up a bit. After playing with the tracking guide today I discovered that rumors of their suckiness have been greatly exagerated. Here's the conventional wisdom: I have a cruiser w/ guns that fire at resolution 125mm. If I shoot at an object smaller then 125mm I have a harder time hitting, do less damage then normal, ect. Target painters increase the sig radius of an object from 25% all the way to 51.56% at full skills on specialized Minmatar Ewar ships. If I light up a frigate (40m) with a hyena w/ full skills, the signature radius would go up to 60.624m. The cruiser gun would hit harder and do more damage. Most people believe that if you light up a target of equal size to your guns or larger the TP won't do any good. The tracking guide says that this isn't so. Here's what an hour of wasted time will get you: Guns: 280mm II arty, 720mm II arty, 1400mm II arty - I picked arty as I'm familiar w/ it and it has the worst tracking. The guns are shooting at a frigate of 40m. I ran the tracking guide w/ a normal ship having a t2 TP w/ maxed out skills, a hyena/rapier/huginn/ with the same t2 TP with maxed out skills. I finally ran the guide w/ a tracking computer on each gun w/ a tracking script. The guns are at base abilities. Here's the range and greatest chance to hit with these guns. The target has an angular velocity of 100m/s. (sitting still almost) BASE: Small - 6.55km with a 96.09%. Medium - 20km with a 61.47%. Large - 69.27km with a 5.27%. Normal ship with TP Small - 6.36km with a 97.83%. Medium - 18km with a 73.69%. Large - 60.36km with a 13.66%. Specialized ship with TP Small - 6.36km with a 98.19%. Medium - 17.45km with a 76.84%. Large - 57.82km with a 17.18%. Ship w/ Tracking Computer Small - 6.36km with a 97.58%. Medium - 18.36km with a 71.75%. Large - 61.82km with a 11.83%. I did the same with the guns shooting at a ship of cruiser size. I also ran the numbers with the ship moving at an angular velocity of 500m/s. Each time the results were similar. A target painter on a normal ship will produce similar results to a tracking computer except everyone in the group gets the benefits. A specialized ship is much better then a targeting computer. Target painters don't stack. (at leat not in their description) They allow bigger ships to lock faster as the targets have a bigger radius. Why are these ewar mods so unused then? I think now that they are just misunderstood.
Stuart Price Caldari Black Water.	Posted - 2008.04.24 00:59:00 - [2] Reason 1. Tracking comps can fit optimal range scripts, which are superwin for sniping setups, particularly once you get to a long enough range for tracking to be fairly unimportant. Reason 2. Clueless people fighting at mid-range fit tracking comps by default because someone in corp chat told them painters were useless. "I got soul but I'm not a soldier"
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2008.04.24 01:03:00 - [3] Originally by: Stuart Price Reason 1. Tracking comps can fit optimal range scripts, which are superwin for sniping setups, particularly once you get to a long enough range for tracking to be fairly unimportant. Reason 2. Clueless people fighting at mid-range fit tracking comps by default because someone in corp chat told them painters were useless. Both of those are great points.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.04.24 01:10:00 - [4] You forgot the part where Everyone (not just you) gain the bonus to hit/damage. On the other hand Tracking computers are "Activate and Forget" and have the option to boost tracking OR optimal. And TCs use less cap but more CPU, so there is another reason to use one or the other. If you're solo, use the TC. If you're in a gang (and not sniping), use TDs (generally). ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.04.24 01:18:00 - [5] Personally I think they would be a lot more popular if they had a longer range.
J Valkor Invicta.	Posted - 2008.04.24 01:24:00 - [6] How are target painters formed? How Golem get Target painter?
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.04.24 01:27:00 - [7] Originally by: J Valkor +How Golem get Target painter? ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.04.24 01:32:00 - [8] Generally, there is a better option for that midslot a majority of the time. Even if they boosted the painter heavily, none of my ships would ever fit one unless I was in a pure support role. Which would be never.
ViperVenom Labteck Corporation LTD. Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.04.24 01:49:00 - [9] I guess you guys have no seen the PWNAGE of Huggin with Dual TP and Lv skills with a gang of Rage torp fitted Ravens. Very simple.. Large Bubble,2 Intys 1 Huggin or Rapier 8 or More Ravens lots TORPS. Simple PWNAGE!!!!!!!! I think Huggin/Raven Best 1/2 punch in EVE.. Boo CCP!!!!
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2008.04.24 02:12:00 - [10] Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Generally, there is a better option for that midslot a majority of the time. Even if they boosted the painter heavily, none of my ships would ever fit one unless I was in a pure support role. Which would be never. Caldari are shield tankers, snipers, and missle users. I can understand if they don't use target painters as their mid-slots are needed for other things and tracking doesn't come into play so much.

Zhecao Vai Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.24 02:21:00 - [11] Edited by: Zhecao Vai on 24/04/2008 02:21:03 Nobody misunderstood them but you. To figure out why nobody uses them, take a look at the stats: Best-named/T2 TP on a Huginn: 51% sig radius boost. That means that if you apply a TP to a target, anyone tracking it with guns will track 1.5 times as well. Best-named/T2 web: 90% speed reduction. That means that if you apply a web to a target, anyone tracking it with guns will track 10 times as well. Which would you prefer, shooting your artillery?
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.04.24 02:42:00 - [12] Originally by: Zhecao Vai Edited by: Zhecao Vai on 24/04/2008 02:21:03 Nobody misunderstood them but you. To figure out why nobody uses them, take a look at the stats: Best-named/T2 TP on a Huginn: 51% sig radius boost. That means that if you apply a TP to a target, anyone tracking it with guns will track 1.5 times as well. Best-named/T2 web: 90% speed reduction. That means that if you apply a web to a target, anyone tracking it with guns will track 10 times as well. Which would you prefer, shooting your artillery? Umm. I don't think web vs TD is the point here? They TDs and Webs have vastly different ranges. With max skills a TD has 45km range while the web is still relegated to 10km unless you go faction/officer. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.04.24 02:50:00 - [13] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/04/2008 02:52:42 Originally by: Zhecao Vai Best-named/T2 TP on a Huginn: 51% sig radius boost. That means that if you apply a TP to a target, anyone tracking it with guns will track 1.5 times as well. Best-named/T2 web: 90% speed reduction. That means that if you apply a web to a target, anyone tracking it with guns will track 10 times as well. This. To put it in other words, a web is equivalent to a 900% target painter (as long as you're stationary and he's orbiting, but hey, transversal control is a easy thing). What it is genuinely useful for are ships firing missiles at undersized targets, as missiles get a damage reduction from signature radius alone, wehich guns do not (its multiplied in with tracking). Given most fights are somewhere where webs are viable (after all, distrupotr range is 24km) and that at longer distances tracking is no issue anyway, well... you just don't need TPs unless you have a sizeable group of missile spammers in gang. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Stakhanov Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.04.24 03:15:00 - [14] Problem is that the niche for TPs (increasing damage / tracking on an unwebbed target) is made redundant by nanos - MWD already boosts the target's sig radius , and explosion velocity is the most important damage reduction factor.
Monticore D'Muertos Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.04.24 04:14:00 - [15] they should add a new scripted stats to target painters em/kinetic/therm/exp scripts reduce shield and armor resist 10% lets say or 1 multi resist script 5% across the board to shields or armor. or the sig radius script. like somebody said no point fitting a painter with every pvp ship out there using a mwd. this would change the cookie cutter rapier/huggin setups maybe or give frigs a new job not sure how stacking from multiple ships would work . or like gangs bonus only the biggest number gets applied.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2008.04.24 04:27:00 - [16] The TP has a benefit even with ships using MWD. I used the tracking guide today to see what a T1 Thrasher with my skill lvl would do against a super crow. (11km/s at least) I fly inderdicters so I get the full 50% tracking benefit. I assumed a 250mm T2 arty setup. I marked the transversal velocity at 11km/s. This would be the most beneficial to the crow. The guns w/ no benefits would hit 48.16% of the time if the crow were orbiting close to 20km. At 25km I'd have a 40% chance of making a hit. At 13km I'd have a 25% of making a hit. Closer then that the overheated web comes into play. Farther away and the crow obviously isn't locking me down If I put on a target painter with the base benefit of 30%, I'd hit 62.28% of the time at 18.64km. I'd also have a 45-48% chance at 25km and a 45% chance at 13km. In short I should theoretically tear up a crow with artillery that is moving at 11km/s using a TP.
Krauthammer	Posted - 2008.04.24 04:30:00 - [17] I use target painters for making small fast frigates easier to hit for my medium drone....Honestly it seems like I have had better success using my TP than a Web in that situation. I haven't run any numbers or anything though.
Hannobaal Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.24 04:30:00 - [18] Originally by: Zhecao Vai Edited by: Zhecao Vai on 24/04/2008 02:21:03 Nobody misunderstood them but you. To figure out why nobody uses them, take a look at the stats: Best-named/T2 TP on a Huginn: 51% sig radius boost. That means that if you apply a TP to a target, anyone tracking it with guns will track 1.5 times as well. Best-named/T2 web: 90% speed reduction. That means that if you apply a web to a target, anyone tracking it with guns will track 10 times as well. Which would you prefer, shooting your artillery? This is very true. However, you will not always have Minmatar recons at hand, and target painters have much longer range than a regular web. My artillery Thrasher always fits a target painter, for example.
Zhecao Vai Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.24 05:00:00 - [19] Edited by: Zhecao Vai on 24/04/2008 05:01:44 Well, web vs. TP is a big point, since you're choosing what to put in your midslots, right? When one is six times as effective as the other, that is a pretty big selling point. Keep in mind that the ships with TP bonuses (besides a few outliers like the Vigil and Bellicose) mostly have web range bonuses too. As for the ones that don't, it's conceivable that there are some situations where you decide you need a target painter. The thing is, webs are pretty mandatory anyway nowadays if you want to hold anything down to kill it, and if you have webs, you probably don't need target painters (unless you're shooting torps.)
Danari Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.24 05:17:00 - [20] Originally by: Stakhanov Problem is that the niche for TPs (increasing damage / tracking on an unwebbed target) is made redundant by nanos - MWD already boosts the target's sig radius , and explosion velocity is the most important damage reduction factor. Bingo. If I'm bright as the burning sun and getting hit for ****, lighting me up even more isn't going to change anything.

Zhecao Vai Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.24 05:53:00 - [21] Originally by: Danari Originally by: Stakhanov Problem is that the niche for TPs (increasing damage / tracking on an unwebbed target) is made redundant by nanos - MWD already boosts the target's sig radius , and explosion velocity is the most important damage reduction factor. Bingo. If I'm bright as the burning sun and getting hit for **, lighting me up even more isn't going to change anything. What is this voodoo **? Target painting a big target bigger has the same effect on tracking as target painting a small target medium-sized.
Saietor Blackgreen The First Foundation Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2008.04.24 06:18:00 - [22] TPs suck balls because they utilize precious medslots, and have mighty competitors. Tracking computers are MAINLY used by longrange ships (fleet BS and snipers), which will never switch them for TPs because of limited range of TP and TC range scripts. I cant really recall any other ships that actively use TCs. There are tracking deficiant ships, like Vagabond for example (never enough tracking there), which could probably use TPs, but they have much more important modules to fit in medslots - disruptor and LSEs. The main problem of TPs is that specialized recons have bonus to web range. Range-bonused webifier has ranges comparable to TPs range (especially faction and overheated one), and gives much more benefits than a target painter. I'd rather put a third webber on Rapier than a TP. Plus, mandatory MWD in PvP fittings and speed being the main factor of engagement-disengagement made signature radius somewhat less important than speed control - if you catch a guy, you take him down whether you have painter or not. But if you cant catch him, painter doesnt help. --- Redesign local/scanner feature - make the place huge, dark and scary again!
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.24 07:17:00 - [23] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 24/04/2008 07:17:31 Typical pvp Snipers use mids for Sensor boosters, MWD and tracking comps, sometimes Cap booster Everyone else uses mids for ECM/MWD/Cap booster/Web/Scram etc. Smaller ships do not see a incentive to fit a painter over a web for example. With a web, you get a chance to kill someone before the get back to gate or whatever. With Painter, the target could be laughing as we outruns you or jumps back through gate. Painters are just not powerful enough or long range enough. Some people even think if painters were high slots, they may be used more by ships with utility slots that lack grid for nos/neut. Either way, Painters are the EW for NPCing currently. -- Billion Isk Mission
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.04.24 07:25:00 - [24] Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 24/04/2008 07:17:31 Typical Fleet/0.0 pvp ......... Fixed for you. Think outside the Blob BoB "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Saietor Blackgreen The First Foundation Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2008.04.24 07:31:00 - [25] Edited by: Saietor Blackgreen on 24/04/2008 07:31:47 Originally by: RuleoftheBone Poor jokes aside TP's are useful with a bit of thought and the right ship mix. ...in the right situation against right targets.
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.24 07:35:00 - [26] I think most of the people in this thread don't understand tracking, sig resolution, etc. Target painter increase signature radius, which has absolutely nothing to do with tracking.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.04.24 07:41:00 - [27] Originally by: Kyra Felann I think most of the people in this thread don't understand tracking, sig resolution, etc. Target painter increase signature radius, which has absolutely nothing to do with tracking. Except that the tracking guide says it does?
Saietor Blackgreen The First Foundation Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2008.04.24 08:00:00 - [28] Originally by: Kyra Felann I think most of the people in this thread don't understand tracking, sig resolution, etc. Including you, apparently. Get off that caldari missile boat you're flying and check how turret tracking works before confusing other players, please. --- Redesign local/scanner feature - make the place huge, dark and scary again!
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.04.24 08:18:00 - [29] Lots of people don't understand signature radius, and why it's important. Target painters are useful given the right situation. Especially now tracking computers got less effective. The problem is though - close range, you want to be webbing. (Although a web and a painter are needed to get missiles to do full damage) Long range, you run out of range on your painter. So it's mid range that it's good at. And ... not much combat happens at mid range. Painting up a 'ceptor will make it easier to hit, but ... typically it's going _so_ fast that you've just got no chance anyway.But in that situation, neither painter, nor tracking computer are going to help anyway.
Hannobaal Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.24 10:13:00 - [30] Originally by: Kyra Felann I think most of the people in this thread don't understand tracking, sig resolution, etc. Target painter increase signature radius, which has absolutely nothing to do with tracking. No, it's you. You're the one who doesn't understand how tracking works. Sig radius has everything to do with tracking. Increasing the target's sig radius by X% (regardless of how how large or how small it allready is) is the exact same as increasing your tracking speed by the same amount. The only difference is that the target painter benefits everyone shooting at that target in the same way.



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