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Torpedoes: WTH Happened! (Back from year off)

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Fzhal Caldari JUDGE DREAD Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.24 12:51:00 - [1] Maximum range on a Raven is 30Km? Srsly? A year ago I was sending them 70-80 Km! Obviously they were nerfed but why? And if possible what was the rational? Now I have seige launchers 5 and specialized and it is TOTALLY WORTHLESS! At least give me 70Km! When this happened was there a chance to retrain? Is there some special thing that torpedoes do now that makes them viable? They are meant to attack large structures and capital ships from close range? How silly. I'll grudgingly end this rant but I'm pretty ****ed.
Gypsio III Bambooule	Posted - 2008.04.24 12:52:00 - [2] The torp boost was great.
Stork DK Minmatar Synthetic Frontiers	Posted - 2008.04.24 12:52:00 - [3] Use the search function and stop whiuning. Atleast look at your new stats first, you have a huge dps buff instead. ___________ - Stork DK
NeoTheo Dark Materials	Posted - 2008.04.24 12:57:00 - [4] Originally by: Fzhal Maximum range on a Raven is 30Km? Srsly? A year ago I was sending them 70-80 Km! Obviously they were nerfed but why? And if possible what was the rational? Now I have seige launchers 5 and specialized and it is TOTALLY WORTHLESS! At least give me 70Km! When this happened was there a chance to retrain? Is there some special thing that torpedoes do now that makes them viable? They are meant to attack large structures and capital ships from close range? How silly. I'll grudgingly end this rant but I'm pretty ****ed. Torps are now the missile equiv of a large t2 neutron blaster :P what i am saying is, they are now short range high dps weapons (you have a lot of extra DPS from the RoF boost you recived). cruise missiles are the long range BS sized missile. this is great on paper, unfortunatly, torps have such a slow explosion bonus that basically you wont be hitting anything other than another battleship in pvp (short range) or someone who cant be arsed to move. torps now are huge DPS look great on paper but in real use they are pretty gash... /Theo. Neotheo Dark Materials Linkage
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum	Posted - 2008.04.24 12:59:00 - [5] Originally by: NeoTheo torps now are huge DPS look great on paper but in real use they are pretty gash... No they're not, they're awesome, and I will always be scared of torp Ravens that can deal blaster damage out to 30km. Especially when you get your 1-month old corpmate to hop in a Vigil with a couple of target painters...
NeoTheo Dark Materials	Posted - 2008.04.24 13:01:00 - [6] Edited by: NeoTheo on 24/04/2008 13:05:14 Edited by: NeoTheo on 24/04/2008 13:04:30 Originally by: Gartel Reiman Originally by: NeoTheo torps now are huge DPS look great on paper but in real use they are pretty gash... No they're not, they're awesome, and I will always be scared of torp Ravens that can deal blaster damage out to 30km. Especially when you get your 1-month old corpmate to hop in a Vigil with a couple of target painters... have your target move over 1.5 k a second..... then see if you hit for anything like half damage let alone max damage. its actaully just as usefull to web them imo. but course you cant web at 10k+ without heat. ive tired it to death, they are great when firing at BC's and BS's but in the nano age they are next to useless in the gangs ive fought against. lets put it this way, i have 6 or 7 mill in missiles, and i am cross training galente :) - dont get me wrong they excel in certain situations but they aint the be all and end all like people keep saying. ;) /Theo Neotheo Dark Materials Linkage
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum	Posted - 2008.04.24 13:07:00 - [7] Originally by: NeoTheo ive tired it to death, they are great when firing at BC's and BS's but in the nano age they are next to useless in the gangs ive fought against. Oh sure, they won't do anything against nano cruisers, but neither will a blaster Mega or a gankageddon, which are the kind of ships that the torp Raven really compares to. And in this role (against fairly heavy targets that presumably are tackled) it puts out a lot of pain.
NeoTheo Dark Materials	Posted - 2008.04.24 13:12:00 - [8] Originally by: Gartel Reiman Originally by: NeoTheo ive tired it to death, they are great when firing at BC's and BS's but in the nano age they are next to useless in the gangs ive fought against. Oh sure, they won't do anything against nano cruisers, but neither will a blaster Mega or a gankageddon, which are the kind of ships that the torp Raven really compares to. And in this role (against fairly heavy targets that presumably are tackled) it puts out a lot of pain. yup totally fair comment, ;) tbh only 3 more days till i can fly a fully tech2 fitted mega and i cant wait to try it out ;) anyhoooo back on topic, to the OP; you can get slightly more range with tech2 long range torps and also look at flight time rigs ;) i think with BS5 its totally possible get out to alomst 50k? (ive never tried to make them mission viable after the change however so this hearsay). /Theo Neotheo Dark Materials Linkage
Endless Subversion Club Bear	Posted - 2008.04.24 13:38:00 - [9] Torpedos are amazing. Absolutely amazing. It turned the Raven into a monster. If the raven was an armor tanked ship it'd be the only close range BS worth bringing anywhere. 30km range on a weapon system that deals blaster dmg, except any dmg type without tracking issues?!! Missioning... meh, who cares. From my understanding torps weren't all that to begin with in missions. Self Destruct & LogOffs
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.24 13:48:00 - [10] Originally by: Endless Subversion Torpedos are amazing. Absolutely amazing. It turned the Raven into a monster. If the raven was an armor tanked ship it'd be the only close range BS worth bringing anywhere. 30km range on a weapon system that deals blaster dmg, except any dmg type without tracking issues?!! And on top of that, if you use T1 seige and some fitting mods (arbalests are crazy cheap now), you can fit 2 Heavy Unstables and ruin your opponent's cap. Nano, schmano - anything smaller than a BC that gets closer than 25Km gets "neutered" instantly, BCs and BS get shot in the face by evil 30Km Torps. Ravens need a tackler to shine is all (The Hyena/Huginn is absolutely perfect for pairing with a raven_ CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Jin Entres Malevolent Intervention Reavers.	Posted - 2008.04.24 13:51:00 - [11] Originally by: NeoTheo have your target move over 1.5 k a second..... then see if you hit for anything like half damage let alone max damage. its actaully just as usefull to web them imo. but course you cant web at 10k+ without heat. ive tired it to death, they are great when firing at BC's and BS's but in the nano age they are next to useless in the gangs ive fought against. It would be quite unfair indeed if torpedoes would do max damage in such a situation. At least they do hit, which often makes them much better against smaller ships than comparable turrets. You can also switch to javelin torps and have a range comparable to mega pulse optimal which scorch. Fit a neutralizer against nanoships and forcing them to bail should be easy. --- CEO
Tac Ginaz	Posted - 2008.04.24 14:47:00 - [12] Ignore the torp detractors above. Small minds do not grasp change well. Here's a list of things that affect torpedoes: - Shortened range - Increased refire rate (especially with Raven's bonus) - Target signature radius now decreases the torpedo (and any other missile) damage. Aka big torpedo vs small ship = small ship takes a fraction of the damage. Note: Torpedoes do decreased damage vs BS sized ships because of sig. radius issues! - Speed at which target is flying decreases torpedo damage. So all you need to load on a raven is: Drone Loadout: 2X Webber Drones, 2X medium Target Painter drones, 1X light target painter drone. -they will allow your torps to hit their max damage vs a battleship and give you the chance to close in on target- and voila!
NeoTheo Dark Materials	Posted - 2008.04.24 15:33:00 - [13] Edited by: NeoTheo on 24/04/2008 15:34:37 Edited by: NeoTheo on 24/04/2008 15:33:55 most of the things written are all good here, ;) Originally by: Endless Subversion 30km range on a weapon system that deals blaster dmg, except any dmg type without tracking issues?!! Missioning... meh, who cares. From my understanding torps weren't all that to begin with in missions. this on the other hand shows a slight lack of A) understanding and B)history. Tracking and Explosion Velocity have a simler effect, the only difference is that with tracking its possible to change this (meaning you can mannover your ship in order to reduce transveral, lower the transversal the easyre to track a target is. its more of a curve with explosion velocity however and stright yes or no with tracking. Explosion velocity however has no such "user input" you can do to minimise the disadvantage. if a ships going considerably faster than your explosion velocity - your screwed, nothing you can do. this is why i suspect it is a curve on dps, rather than a yes no answer with tracking. thats just game mechanic's and how it works. as for the comment about "they never used to be all that for missions.... afraid mate a good torp user would do misisons much quicker in the main, with the exception of the frig heavy missions. now everyone uses cruise's anyhow ;) but yes to summ up, if you are shooting slow large sig radius ships under 30k, there is prolly not a better weapon to do so with. ;) /theo. Neotheo Dark Materials Linkage
P'uck	Posted - 2008.04.24 15:51:00 - [14] Edited by: P''uck on 24/04/2008 15:51:09 not to forget: you get a serious amount of hurt for your sp with torps- a lot less skills than large turrets, and on top of that... t1 torps arent that far behind t2 blasters, damage wise, amirite? (didnt check that, but im fairly sure) sure, you either need a solid tackle or some luck to actually apply that damage (unless its pve...) but thats true for almost all battleship weapons in one way or another. oh and there are always rigs/skills/implants(?) to make your t1 torp go around 50km.
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.04.24 15:59:00 - [15] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/04/2008 15:59:21 Originally by: NeoTheo Tracking and Explosion Velocity have a simler effect, the only difference is that with tracking its possible to change this (meaning you can mannover your ship in order to reduce transveral, lower the transversal the easyre to track a target is. its more of a curve with explosion velocity however and stright yes or no with tracking. Not really a yes/no with tracking, it's more interesting then that. Tracking isn't a 'yes' unless you have 2x the raw tracking over actual angular velocity and signature radiuses are the same (correct me on actual formula here if i'm wrong), furthermore, tracking works in a way that if you hit, you still deal full damage (taking into account shot quality which is going to be statistically lower) while you do not have any chance of damaging something which outruns your exp velocity in a missile ship. The fun part about gun tracking is that there is always a chance to hit really, as long as angular velocity / sig resolution isn't infinite or sig radius / tracking speed 0. Originally by: NeoTheo but yes to summ up, if you are shooting slow large sig radius ships under 30k, there is prolly not a better weapon to do so with. ;) /theo. That. For BS and to some unpainted extent BC (although I suspect neutrons might do better here) torps are win, for smaller targets, turrets are better. Why? Turrets don't get a damage reduction for shooting undersized targets - they get, effectively, a tracking penality, but this can be mitigated by webs and you still hit periodically vs fast stuff and fairly regularly vs larger stuff (a, say, BC is not going to out-track/out-range (given distruptor range) a Mega firing Null, while if perma-running MWD you could mitigate torps). When it comes to battleship melting, torps are superior for another reason: as long as you are not in optimal and you are moving, you get some damage reduction via misses and hit quality, and torps don't really care; as long as you're slower then exp velocity (and they catch you meaning you're not moving too fast and are in range, both solved via a web), they couldn't care wether you're 5km off in webrange or 100m off and moving at 40m/s (something that will give guns a tangible damage decrease, it's fun to note how you miss targets of any size if you're bumping them. I should probably go to sleep, I'm rambling Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.24 16:17:00 - [16] I would actually still rank torps above most large turrets for killing small ships, but its close. Small ships when using their MWD and webbed are going to take full damage. Small ships when not using their MWD and actually trying to get transversal will significantly reduce the DPS from all turrets unless they are very far away. But if they are very far away then only one turret type [t2 pulse lasers] is going to be hitting well enough to not be at half or more DPS reduction due to falloff. Add in travel time that ships have to get to optimal range against new targets and the movement of the ships that are doing the firing when doing so and the question of which is better isn't so clear cut. Especially when the ships have low EHP. Vote Goumindong for CSM
Julius Romanus Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.24 16:22:00 - [17] If everyone would please form a single file line, we can laugh at him in formation. ------------------ For Medicinal Use Only.
skuko Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.24 16:30:00 - [18] you know what is funny? how people throw in one stupid whine thread and are too lame to even respond and acknowledge their mistake... get a grip op...
Antodias North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.04.24 16:34:00 - [19] Yes, torps suck. Please don't ever use them in pvp.
NeoTheo Dark Materials	Posted - 2008.04.24 16:37:00 - [20] Originally by: Antodias Yes, torps suck. Please don't ever use them in pvp. civialian rail guns only!
Maria D'thinker School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.04.24 17:04:00 - [21] Edited by: Maria D''thinker on 24/04/2008 17:07:08 Originally by: Malcanis And on top of that, if you use T1 seige and some fitting mods (arbalests are crazy cheap now), you can fit 2 Heavy Unstables and ruin your opponent's cap. Nano, schmano - anything smaller than a BC that gets closer than 25Km gets "neutered" instantly, BCs and BS get shot in the face by evil 30Km Torps. Ravens need a tackler to shine is all (The Hyena/Huginn is absolutely perfect for pairing with a raven_ Sounds like Burn Eden combo
Derrys Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.04.24 17:57:00 - [22] Edited by: Derrys on 24/04/2008 18:03:11 There's a great video out there if you're interested in seeing what a modern Raven can do in PvP, even solo. It's a huge video, but a lot of fun. A lot of the pilot's success is due to his targets making dumb decisions based on their false expectations about his ship (nanos happily wandering into web range, for example), but hey, playing on your opponent's psychology is a big part of using your ship effectively. As for the rationale behind the torpedo boost (I refuse to call it a nerf), it came on the heels of one of the economic reports, which concluded that a) Ravens were extremely common, and b) almost everybody was using them for missions. I think they boosted DPS and nerfed range to try to even them out, so we'd see more of them in PvP and they'd no longer be the nbermissioners they had been before. I love the changes myself.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.04.24 18:20:00 - [23] They got massively boosted, for the minor drawback of losing a bit of range. Ravens are now worthy PvP machines.
GateScout	Posted - 2008.04.24 19:42:00 - [24] Edited by: GateScout on 24/04/2008 19:43:30 Edited by: GateScout on 24/04/2008 19:43:05 In the big scheme of things, it was a buff...and a needed one. The 64% range reduction came with a 25% increase in RoF. Personally, I find that this helps the raven in typical PvP situations. I'm enjoying being at the top of killmails now.
Nu Wa	Posted - 2008.04.24 20:26:00 - [25] BTW, torps are still great for missions. Many golem pilots swear by the javalin torps. It is just trickier now to get the range you want(i.e. missile velocity/flight time rigs + good skills to reach +50km)..but when done right it still wtfpwn the cruise missile setup.
Cutie Chaser Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.04.24 23:02:00 - [26] Originally by: Endless Subversion Torpedos are amazing. Absolutely amazing. It turned the Raven into a monster. If the raven was an armor tanked ship it'd be the only close range BS worth bringing anywhere. Looks at the raven again I see no shield tanking bonus, slap an armor tank on it and go to town with your huge number of mid slots for various e-war goodies. *** Thats a Templar, the amarr fighter. Its a combat drone used by carriers.
Endless Subversion Club Bear	Posted - 2008.04.24 23:17:00 - [27] If the slot layout was something like an apocs it would be an armor tanked moster. Armor tanking it atm comes at cost to a big chunk of it's dmg or hp and just isn't worth it imo. Self Destruct & LogOffs
Gark32 X Bane X Soldiers Of New Eve	Posted - 2008.04.26 03:28:00 - [28] Originally by: Endless Subversion If the slot layout was something like an apocs it would be an armor tanked moster. Armor tanking it atm comes at cost to a big chunk of it's dmg or hp and just isn't worth it imo. Spidertank it. it's as good or better than a spider mega. ________________________________________________
Gram Hellfire Smoking Hillbillys Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.04.26 06:00:00 - [29] Forgive me for my noobish question, but what is spidertanking? Is that shield and armor tanking?
MalVortex Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.04.26 07:13:00 - [30] Spider tanking is (traditionally) armor tanked battleships all with at least 1 large remote armor rep fit, and high resistances loaded instead of the traditional reppers/plate fits (these may still be fit, but the focus is on resistance). When one of the battleships is targeted, his friends all send in their remote healing. When done correctly, this "spiderweb" tank makes it very, very difficult to burn one person down. Even if the hostile forces can break the (spider)tank, it will typically take a long time. In the meantime, the battleships are all focus firing on the enemy and inflicting heavy casualties. It becomes even worse if the hostiles switch targets to a different battleship; lots of time and damage wasted on a ship that will very soon be back to 100%.

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