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Sieur NewT
Gallente
Inter-Regional Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2008.04.28 12:48:00 -
[1]
yes, why not ?
i think it could be a great thing.
MS are big, yes, but station are big too, and it would be great to MS to dock... instaed of stay in pos, or unlogg in space, and monopolyze a character all the time.
i vote for MS to dock ! 
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Sauvez les castors, mangez la foret! |
Velox Idolon
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Posted - 2008.04.28 13:12:00 -
[2]
would make a carrier completely redundant to larger alliances, so not really a good idea.
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.28 13:31:00 -
[3]
I does kinda suck that if i want a MS i am stuck in it until it goes POP and cannot fly other ships.
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Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Through the Looking Glass
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Posted - 2008.04.28 14:40:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Velox Idolon
would make a carrier completely redundant to larger alliances, so not really a good idea.
The main interest of supercapitals is not that you need to have a character stuck in them all the time... This is the main logistic crap about them.
What they are interesting for is their immunity to EW, special modules, and what they bring to their fleet. Because of this, they are different to carriers. Because of the EW immunity, motherships allow to continue to operate while a carrier would be totally disabled.
The unability to dock causes supercap pilots to always have an alt to play instead of playing the same char all the time, they only connect the pilot stuck in the ship if they have some alliance op planned or if they can leave the ship in some deathstar POS.
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Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
Assault Frigates MK II |
Draconus Lofwyr
Gallente
Eternal Guardians Corp.
The Covenant Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.28 16:11:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
Originally by: Velox Idolon
would make a carrier completely redundant to larger alliances, so not really a good idea.
What they are interesting for is their immunity to EW, special modules, and what they bring to their fleet. Because of this, they are different to carriers. Because of the EW immunity, motherships allow to continue to operate while a carrier would be totally disabled.
The unability to dock causes supercap pilots to always have an alt to play instead of playing the same char all the time, they only connect the pilot stuck in the ship if they have some alliance op planned or if they can leave the ship in some deathstar POS.
So, using that logic, Teir 2 and even Tech 2 ships should not be able to dock, after all, the enhanced "whatever" abilities are above the normal ships.
And the inability to dock, only brings more money into CCP's pockets.
I understand the main reason for it is to try and force some teamwork into the supercapitals, as it takes a team to keep them running, someone has to run the pos, someone has to build them, and i think the idea was to eject from them at the pos so that multiple pilots can fly such an expensive ship for their corp or alliance.
Unfortunately, the reality is, its turned out to be that it just ended up being the rich players ships as they are the only ones that can afford the extra accounts to make them useful, as most pilots end up buying their own and just logging with them to keep them for themselves. I can understand the limitation of the supercaps only being able to be built at pos's, but the docking limitation was a failed idea and needs to be scrapped. The fact that at the time supercaps were released, outposts were not concorable, so that was also a way to keep the big toys in play and destroyable. As for making Carriers useless, no, they wont, as it is a lot easier for someone to buy a carrier than it is to buy a MoM. But it does keep people from progressing into ships that they CAN fly.
I personally can fly a MoM, but do not want to lock myself into one, so there ends up being a lot more lower ships on the field and adding to the blob. If you open up the MoMs to where a person can field what they want and safely stow what they don't in a station, you will see more variety on the field and probably see more super capital losses.
As for the imulnity to Ewar, that went away with the Hictors. MoM's and Titans are no longer the I WIN button they used to be.
Oh, on a side note, can we get 2 changes to the no loot in the cargo of stored ships nerf?
1. can we remove it from the pos ship arrays? Its not like they are going to be used for transporting a lot of gear anywhere.
2. can we add an option when we try and store a vessel to automatically dump its cargo contents in our cargo hold? that way we can pick up abandoned ships that have something in them?
DL
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Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Through the Looking Glass
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Posted - 2008.04.28 16:32:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Draconus Lofwyr
So, using that logic, Teir 2 and even Tech 2 ships should not be able to dock, after all, the enhanced "whatever" abilities are above the normal ships.
And the inability to dock, only brings more money into CCP's pockets.
Did I write something I didn't understand myself?
So, I'll try to make clear what I meant :
Motherships are not interesting because theyc an't dock, it's what makes them damn annoying to use and why single account players can't have any access to it, it is crap.
I'm really wondering how you could understand the perfect opposite of what I was trying to say.
IMHO, all ships should dock, even titans, having a character STUCK in a ship is crap.
It's not because a ship has some special abilities that it should have sucha crap drawback, a drawback that isn't nerfing the ship, but the player (they are already slow, take an eternity to warp and such).
The fact that heavy interdictors allow for super capital tackling removes any need to add such annoying things as not being able to dock. As we have ways to catch them, there is no need to leave them vulnerable in space, it's overnerfing the usability and the character that is stuck inside the ships.
So, what I was trying to answer to Velox is that being able to dock would not make carriers redundant to motherships at all, they would stay the cheaper but vulnerable versions of the motherships that they are. The cost difference makes up for the efficiency difference, fielding 10 carriers instead of a mothership will always make sense in many situations.
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Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
Assault Frigates MK II |
Velox Idolon
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Posted - 2008.04.28 17:06:00 -
[7]
Which is why I said large alliances would no longer have a use for capitals, if they can churn out titans, as seems to be the case, why would they churn out carriers when they can churn out MoMs instead, as they are better in every way apart from cost, and, being able to dock, have no limitations that a carrier does not.
Your point wasn't clear, though it was understandable, but why would anyone think that the attraction of the ship was its inability to dock, no-one said this.
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Ario
Caldari
Pelennor Swarm
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.28 17:56:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Ario on 28/04/2008 17:56:28
Quote:
2. can we add an option when we try and store a vessel to automatically dump its cargo contents in our cargo hold? that way we can pick up abandoned ships that have something in them?
I'm not convinced the rest of the ideas are useful or needed, but this sounds good to me.
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Nemtar Nataal
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.04.29 07:28:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Nemtar Nataal on 29/04/2008 07:28:09
Motherships should not be docable at station, i think its a bad idear and like it was pointed out earlier it would make Carriers kind of redunand (or rather make them even more redundand then they are now).
From what i undestand Super caps wore ment to be more then a one man project but people wanted them to be one man projects thus now we all mave multible cyno alts and combat alts to compensate for the additional logistics that capitals and in this case specially super caps bring to the game.
Oki so why dont i think they should be docable at stations, well it would make Motherships even more of a one man show. They would be to easy to run and maintain. The first motherships that wore build wore a ***** to manufacture...logistics and maintaining sov for the duration of the build project was really a drag.
Well logistics have become so much easier and so have building the ships as Sov4 (costelation sov) makes it very hard to destroy a MS in production (factory process is very "short" and the Sov4 invulnerability period protects the ship for a great deal of time).
 On the other hand im inclined to agree with you, it sux having a MS and bieng stuck in it untill ig goes pop, thats just stupid.
So what i think should happen was that the mechanics of docking a MS at a POS should be refined. It should be posible to build a Capital dock at a pos. A dock that could hold multible motherships im thinking something like a parking space.
Releasing the MS from the docking clamps should be imposible unless you wore in posession of a personalized password that the MS pilote defined upon installation.
Pros
You get the benefit of bieng able to use your MS charactor for more then just bieng in a MS untill he/she dies.
You get a level of security that you dont get with the current system.
Hopefully this system could be designed to span alliances, thus a alliance could have and maintain capital docks for there players.
Cons
The system would be limited to space holders - Yes well personally i still feel a MS/Titan is a alliance project and shold remain as that. If you have a MS/Titan and are not in a alliance you have chosen this problems for your self. There is a reason why MS/Titans can only be build in high level sov systems.
Maintaining the Capital dock would cost isk and requirer a certent amount of efford - Well yes this is the price you pay for having this type of ship. If the ship didnt require more efford to own then a simple cruiser everyone would heave them, and at the end of the day thats why the current system is so complex...to prevent everyone from flying this ships.
Problem
What happens to my MS/Titan if i get booted from the corp or alliance? I havnt got any nright idears but im sure other people can come up with them.
So why this model?
Well i dont belive that MS wore ever ment to be the solo pown ships that they are today, they wore not ment to be used in empire for low sec pirating (not at this extend) where they are almost invulnable to any form of counter attack.
Yes CCP implemented the HIC script to tacle Super Caps but thats properly cause they wore not bieng used in the manner that was intended!
A compromise to this would be to restrict Motherships to dock in 00 stations in alliance owned space. That would still prevent people from flodding low sec empire with this things 
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Nemtar Nataal
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.04.29 07:40:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Nemtar Nataal on 29/04/2008 07:40:51
Originally by: Draconus Lofwyr
I understand the main reason for it is to try and force some teamwork into the supercapitals, as it takes a team to keep them running, someone has to run the pos, someone has to build them, and i think the idea was to eject from them at the pos so that multiple pilots can fly such an expensive ship for their corp or alliance.
Unfortunately, the reality is, its turned out to be that it just ended up being the rich players ships as they are the only ones that can afford the extra accounts to make them useful, as most pilots end up buying their own and just logging with them to keep them for themselves. I can understand the limitation of the supercaps only being able to be built at pos's, but the docking limitation was a failed idea and needs to be scrapped. The fact that at the time supercaps were released, outposts were not concorable, so that was also a way to keep the big toys in play and destroyable. As for making Carriers useless, no, they wont, as it is a lot easier for someone to buy a carrier than it is to buy a MoM. But it does keep people from progressing into ships that they CAN fly.
You hit it spot on there m8 the problem with super caps in its essence.
The only way of countering this was to make super caps the way they alwayes should have been. Multible player controled.
One person could pilote the ship jumping it and turning it in what ever direction he wanted.
There should be multible controls to signal the other pilotes what the Pilote/commander of the ship was intending to do.
There should be a CAG the guy who assigned fighters, target hostils all the baddle stuff.
And just maybe a guy who controled the capital modules on the ship (the logistical part of the ship that is).
Motherships should have been enhanced to the level where they would bether accomendate the piloting of 2-3 players then 1 player. Thus i would have had them be atleast twice that of a carrier. Double the drone capabileties, double the logistical capabileties ect.
On the subject of Titans well the same would go for them.
There would be a Captain, the logistical officer would be redudndand as the only logistical capability a Titan have is the jump portal but it would still be good to require a logistical offircer to make the ship harder to pilote.
And there should be 2 man crew to initiate the doomsday device, and it shouldnt just be a one click think...more like a minigame to fire the dnm thing.
However the Doomsday capability should then be incresed to bether accomendate a 3-4 player ship.
The probelm with super caps are that they can be flown by 1 man and his 2 alts.
Preventing people from assigning fighters as Captain of the ship or preventing people from firring the Doomsday device with just one alt would have solved most if not all of the problems that Super caps introduced to the game in the first place.
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Conq Er
Sweetrock Mining
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Posted - 2008.04.29 12:11:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Nemtar Nataal
Edited by: Nemtar Nataal on 29/04/2008 07:40:51
Originally by: Draconus Lofwyr
I understand the main reason for it is to try and force some teamwork into the supercapitals, as it
.....
The only way of countering this was to make super caps the way they alwayes should have been. Multible player controled.
Thank you sir for introducing more lag inducing ideas to CCP. 
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Damned Force
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.04.29 12:18:00 -
[12]
Oh boys u fight a battle u cant win....
MS would never be able to dock, because so u need an another account, or at least a pilot to be able to hold that ship, and so u pay more....
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Kyax
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Posted - 2008.04.29 12:19:00 -
[13]
It is good that motherships are not able to dock. It stops people buying them, and provides a choice by those that do. Eve is all about difficult choices and this is just once of them. Keep it as is or EVERYBODY will want a mothership, enough people want them already.
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Markousa
Minmatar
Jita Hauling And Logistics
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Posted - 2008.04.29 13:28:00 -
[14]
Well they made it possible for 0.0 alliances to upgrade thier owned stations. How about make a station upgrade capital docking array or something , where as the guy above me well since they were made for big 0.0 alliances give them the ability to put them away
With the nerf of being able to be tackled by Heavy Dictors AND missing out on the ship maint array increase Motherships are just expensive carriers with a faction tank i dont see why they should be gimped with the inability to dock any more
/signed on docking
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Slobodanka
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Posted - 2008.04.29 17:59:00 -
[15]
No. Just... no. Capital blobs are getting sillier already, any mechanism that would "free" supercap chars would encourage supercap stockpiling for invansions and supercap blobbing, as more people would train for supercaps knowing they could just swap ships when they wanted. One may argue that it is already happening and one would be right. But it is happening to lesser extend than if one could just build supercap, dock it in his sov4 station, and start another one. Even POS docking would be as silly as station docking, because one could dock his mom in his sov4 POS, making it impossible to kill.
Supercaps have "super" in their name for a reason: They are behemoths of war, their tanking/logistic/DDD abilities are above any other ship in game. FFS they cane move entire fleets throug on-demand portals, they can transport clones around (with their ships and ammo + some backup ships), they can even clear every subcap ship from grid if used properly. If one chooses to get into supercap it should be thought through and have same or even worse consequences for his char. Perhaps when supercap pops so should pod piloting it with his implants or something... altho that happens quite often anyhow 
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Red Harvest
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Posted - 2008.04.29 18:51:00 -
[16]
Simply NO because i want those supercaps to be a real pain for the pilot.
Not being able to dock is at least a tiny bit of inconvenience to counter all the advantages the MSs have.
My most wanted change is to deny supercaps any kind of cloak and that they only can logoff inside a friendly POS but nowhere else (goodbye logoffski for them).
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Blind Man
Cosmic Fusion
When Fat Kids Attack
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Posted - 2008.04.29 19:04:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Blind Man on 29/04/2008 19:04:57
let them dock at outposts only tbh, needed an upgrade like mother ship hangar array, and only 1 can dock.
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Matrixcvd
Caldari
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.29 21:22:00 -
[18]
how about no
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Sieur NewT
Gallente
Inter-Regional Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2008.04.30 01:28:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Red Harvest
Simply NO because i want those supercaps to be a real pain for the pilot.
Not being able to dock is at least a tiny bit of inconvenience to counter all the advantages the MSs have.
My most wanted change is to deny supercaps any kind of cloak and that they only can logoff inside a friendly POS but nowhere else (goodbye logoffski for them).
TOO MUCH PAIN at the moment
i still think that MS must be able to dock. dont want to stuck a 30 mil character for 1 ship only.
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Sauvez les castors, mangez la foret! |
Red Harvest
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Posted - 2008.04.30 10:40:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Sieur NewT
TOO MUCH PAIN at the moment
i still think that MS must be able to dock. dont want to stuck a 30 mil character for 1 ship only.
Nothing stops you from ejecting and doing something else (for additional safety set up a personal pos and use it as your garage).
And of course you have the choice NOT to fly a MS at all if you dont like the consequences.
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Sieur NewT
Gallente
Inter-Regional Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2008.04.30 11:34:00 -
[21]
pos are not 100% safe... and for a ship that cost 20b , i prefer 100% safety.
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Sauvez les castors, mangez la foret! |
Strak Yogorn
Amarr
Mind Warpers
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Posted - 2008.04.30 11:43:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Sieur NewT
i still think that MS must be able to dock. dont want to stuck a 30 mil character for 1 ship only.
then dont get in one ? its a choice you make, and its all up to you.
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Goti Evans
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Posted - 2008.04.30 11:55:00 -
[23]
if you use one of your same account alts in a one man corp to set up a POS then a POS would be 100% safe for several days - until the strontium runs out, should give you plenty of time to get in to the MS and Jump out.
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Markousa
Minmatar
Jita Hauling And Logistics
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Posted - 2008.04.30 13:12:00 -
[24]
My Mothership just sits on an alt i trained and if i wanna use it i just swap the char around so really there isnt much diff already but . ill bite
Originally by: Slobodanka
Supercaps have "super" in their name for a reason:
People call them Super Caps if you look on the ship tab they still come under Carrier and well titan gets its own class i see no super anywhere
Originally by: Slobodanka
They are behemoths of war, their tanking/logistic/DDD abilities are above any other ship in game
Carrier - 1 bill , Mothership = 15 bil (give or take on figures) you pay an extra 14 bil to be able to tank the same with a T2 fit . motherships only tank better because people DONT t2 fit them they put officer , put that on a carrier it will tank alot as well. They can carry 1x more battle ship than a normal CARRIER can . The only real advantage motherships Have are the inability to be jammed and warp scrambled . well they stopped the warp scrambling bit ,so in short you pay 14 bil for 1 bs and unable to be jammed if i didnt have anything better to spend my money on i wouldnt have got one
Originally by: Slobodanka
. FFS they cane move entire fleets throug on-demand portals, they can transport clones around (with their ships and ammo + some backup ships), they can even clear every subcap ship from grid if used properly.
Topic = " make possible to mothership to dock in station " if they could fit a doomsday and a portal iam gunna buy one now !
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Spike 68
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.04.30 15:29:00 -
[25]
being immune to all forms of EW comes at a cost, get over it 
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Draconus Lofwyr
Gallente
Eternal Guardians Corp.
The Covenant Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.30 16:47:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Spike 68
being immune to all forms of EW comes at a cost, get over it
Thats the crux of the situation, that tag is no longer valid, they are now susceptible to "some" kinds of EW. so, therefore, a MoM is now nothing more than a more expensive carrier. They are listed on the market, so they were intended to be in the stations at some point. The only real bonuses to MoM's are more fighters (ehhem, easily destroyed targets), a Clone vat....that most don't use due to logistics and annoyances of jump clones. They do have some command bonuses, but so does a command ship, and its dockable. Titans do need to stay outside the station, but the MoM's need to be able to move inside.
This will ad more flavor to the battlefield, as more people will own MoM's and will be deploying them to the battlefield, this will provide an additional isk loss when they drop. As it is right now, the risk is too great for such little reward. the fact that they cant be insured since they cant be docked is another problem.
DL.
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Draconus Lofwyr
Gallente
Eternal Guardians Corp.
The Covenant Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.30 16:53:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Draconus Lofwyr on 30/04/2008 16:52:56
Sorry, double post
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Alz Shado
Ever Flow
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Posted - 2008.04.30 17:29:00 -
[28]
Give them a boarding password, so you can eject from one at a POS and not have to worry about someone stealing it.
They shouldn't be invincible, but they should at least be parkable. Even my car has keys, and it's not a 15 billion dollar investment.
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\\\\ Rifter(RedBad)
"Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand |
Sszl
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Posted - 2008.04.30 18:30:00 -
[29]
Suggestion: Create a new outpost upgrade that would allow moms to dock at the outpost - essentially a cap ship array for outposts. Require sov 3 or 4, but also allow the mom docking module to be attackable by fleets, and reppable by alliance owning it. If module destroyed, then ships inside get popped. Could also make it possible to build them at the outpost, but with same risk of loss if attacked.
Would give mom's some flexibility for short term docking, but not encourage tons of stockpiling of moms. After all - Who wants to lose their 10 moms in that outpost when a big fleet goes for the target of opportunity.... Nobody would ever log off with their mom's parked - you'd still be sleeping in it, so couldn't risk having more than one per pilot still.
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Draconus Lofwyr
Gallente
Eternal Guardians Corp.
The Covenant Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.30 20:11:00 -
[30]
Why should one ship get better security than another? in game work has accomplished to obtain them all, just different levels. So you want to be able to attack that really expensive ship when they are forced to be afk because they cant dock it?
If you going to stop MoM's and Titans from docking, then lets just do away with docking ships all together? if you want to buy anything, you have to leave your ship at a pos or a safe spot and go to the station in a pod....ooops, cant get your stuff to the ship because...you cant dock.
This is all just ridiculous mechanics to inconvenience a small group of players that have worked very hard to get where they are, either personally, or socially.
If you want to take down that MoM, or Titan, it would be more likely to happen if the individual knew he had more back in station that he could go and get. instead, as it is now, major alliances only pull out the Titan or the MoM when they know they wont loose it. Perhaps they will build spares, this will improve the economy as more gear will need to be built and sold. Its just ridiculous that this mechanic has turned a certain set if ships into nothing more than status symbols. more ships, more likely to die. Unless CCP says there is some other unknown reason that they CANT let these ships dock, then un-nerf these ships and let em dock so they can take a rest.
DL
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