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Kiting vs Brawling - lame vs awesome?

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Mfume Apocal Origin. Nulli Secunda 332	Posted - 2012.03.02 22:56:00 - [31] - Quote Cearain wrote: I was going to say that eve has a very good balance between trying to kite someone outside scram range and trying to get a brawling ship inside scram range. But that balance basically thrown out of the window with off grid booster ships. The extra range these give to points and webs combined with the extra speed makes it very unbalanced. I hope ccp does what you suggest and requires boosters to be on grid. That doesn't make sense when both types of ships are bonused equally by links.
Mfume Apocal Origin. Nulli Secunda 332	Posted - 2012.03.02 23:00:00 - [32] - Quote Oh wait, Imperial Outlaws, I see your issue now. But I seriously doubt CCP is going to come up with a link that increases the range you can store your ship in the carrier.
Kessiaan Greater Order Of Destruction Happy Endings 94	Posted - 2012.03.02 23:15:00 - [33] - Quote I flew Gallente in lowsec forever. Brawling is pretty simple for the most part - fit full tackle, max gank/buffer, warp in at zero and pew (covops alt is helpful for this last bit). Now I fly Minmatar in nullsec roams and routinely find myself in matchups in which we are at a substantial numerical disadvantage, and I've developed a wonderful appreciation for kiting tactics. And 720s. My killboard - http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Kessiaan
Pulgy Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly 46	Posted - 2012.03.02 23:57:00 - [34] - Quote Death to offgrid boosting. That is all. No range? No problem!Join the Church of the Holy BlasterGäó . A Hybrid religion.
Ahrieman Heretic Army Heretic Nation 73	Posted - 2012.03.03 01:10:00 - [35] - Quote I do both about the same amount. I tend to favor kiting when I know I will be outnumbered/outgunned - which happens quite a bit, especially in the larger fights that I get into. To drop 5 brawling BC into 10 brawling BC just turns into a DPS/tank slugfest where the 9 BC's typically have the upper hand. To use 5 nano BC's against those 10 brawling BC's makes the fight a winning proposition for the smaller force. These sorts of fights are player-skill intensive, but allow a smaller gang to engage a larger gang. If you generally have numerical superiority, then by all means, brawl away. If you are often outnumbered (and even then get more people batphoned in on you), you should consider kiting. Sig tanking is the new black
Klown Walk 43	Posted - 2012.03.03 01:33:00 - [36] - Quote Brawling feels more luck based and I rather have a nerf to gang link boosters instead of making them on grid only.
Cearain Imperial Outlaws 296	Posted - 2012.03.03 01:48:00 - [37] - Quote Mfume Apocal wrote: Cearain wrote: I was going to say that eve has a very good balance between trying to kite someone outside scram range and trying to get a brawling ship inside scram range. But that balance basically thrown out of the window with off grid booster ships. The extra range these give to points and webs combined with the extra speed makes it very unbalanced. I hope ccp does what you suggest and requires boosters to be on grid. That doesn't make sense when both types of ships are bonused equally by links. Yes keep thinking brawling ships will benefit as much from skirmish links as kiting ships. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain Imperial Outlaws 296	Posted - 2012.03.03 01:50:00 - [38] - Quote Mfume Apocal wrote: Oh wait, Imperial Outlaws, I see your issue now. But I seriously doubt CCP is going to come up with a link that increases the range you can store your ship in the carrier. What are you talking about? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Mfume Apocal Origin. Nulli Secunda 332	Posted - 2012.03.03 03:57:00 - [39] - Quote Cearain wrote: Yes keep thinking brawling ships will benefit as much from skirmish links as kiting ships. Close-in brawlers gain much more practical advantage from the sig reduction. The additional speed, agility and web/scram range also help immensely for getting hard-tackle. Plus the brawler has the advantage jump-in mechanics; with links you can have someone in hard-tackle range everytime unless it's a regional gate. Cearain wrote: What are you talking about? When in danger, I-LAW's preferred method of escape is storing their ship in a carrier. I can see how current skirmish links don't really support this version of "brawling."
Cearain Imperial Outlaws 297	Posted - 2012.03.03 04:09:00 - [40] - Quote Mfume Apocal wrote: Cearain wrote: Yes keep thinking brawling ships will benefit as much from skirmish links as kiting ships. Close-in brawlers gain much more practical advantage from the sig reduction. The additional speed, agility and web/scram range also help immensely for getting hard-tackle. Plus the brawler has the advantage jump-in mechanics; with links you can have someone in hard-tackle range everytime unless it's a regional gate.. Yeah yeah, thats fine. Keep thinking brawling ships benefit as much from skirmish links as kiting ships. Mfume Apocal wrote: Cearain wrote: What are you talking about? When in danger, I-LAW's preferred method of escape is storing their ship in a carrier. I can see how current skirmish links don't really support this version of "brawling." Who told you that? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Deter Javvan Redemptions Manifesto SpaceMonkey's Alliance 0	Posted - 2012.03.03 04:27:00 - [41] - Quote .
Mfume Apocal Origin. Nulli Secunda 333	Posted - 2012.03.03 07:56:00 - [42] - Quote Cearain wrote: Who told you that? I watched your corp do it in Otosela against TEST. Which is why I'm shocked that you still somehow managed to lose 44 ships (and at least one pod) to them.
Muad 'dib The Imperial Fedaykin 180	Posted - 2012.03.03 11:05:00 - [43] - Quote people like ot kite because statisticly you already have the advantage (high ground) However vets fly more kitey ships (like me) because we HATE GRINDING after many years of playing, so we tend to minimise our losses - a great way to save money HOT TIP lol
Roime Shiva Furnace 238	Posted - 2012.03.03 11:17:00 - [44] - Quote Cearain wrote: Yeah yeah, thats fine. Keep thinking brawling ships benefit as much from skirmish links as kiting ships. Max Loki-boosted shield gank Brutix is ove 100m/s faster than a non-boosted nano-Cane, so while your argument is true in general, I can certainly see benefits to running skirmish links with brawlers.
Manar Detri Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 7	Posted - 2012.03.04 01:43:00 - [45] - Quote This is actually a rather annoying problem with eve atm and is a general reason for why all ships under bs class are generally shield tanked. There is nothing to gain from utility mids at this point. With shield fits in fleet you get speed, full gank and full range. There is no need for anything else in eves current fights. I would however love to see ewar getting some love so all the fun armor ships get a use once again, this being buffs to damps and disruptors, as they are, pretty much the things armor ships could use in their free mid slots. This would actually bring back some balance between medium hull tanking styles. Someone ofcourse will come telling me how armor gets more hp's, but really, extra hp isn't worth a dime if the other guys in a shield fit and that 300m/s faster :), armor really needs ways of forcing much inferior dps to shield opponent or making the kiters life generally a ton harder.
Ahrieman Heretic Army Heretic Nation 82	Posted - 2012.03.04 03:18:00 - [46] - Quote Tracking disruptors don't need a buff. Damps on the other hand do. Regardless, you will never see people flying armor BC's rolling this EWAR if no FC's are willing to try to fight like this. As it stands, I haven't seen any armor BC gangs using TD's even though it would be viable. Just cus it can be done and could be effective, doesn't mean that people will actually try and do it. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it not be retarded. Sig tanking is the new black
Nyla Skin Dark Circle Enforcement Templis Dragonaors 65	Posted - 2012.03.04 11:08:00 - [47] - Quote Dark Pangolin wrote: Boosters should have to be ON-Grid. This we agree on.
X Gallentius Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords 140	Posted - 2012.03.04 16:52:00 - [48] - Quote Nyla Skin wrote: Dark Pangolin wrote: Boosters should have to be ON-Grid. This we agree on. And on kill mails! Yes I mad bro!
Jonathan Jax The Scope Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2012.03.04 18:42:00 - [49] - Quote Forgive my newbness, but if kiters counter brawlers, what counters kiters?
Daneel Trevize The Scope Gallente Federation 79	Posted - 2012.03.04 18:58:00 - [50] - Quote Strong buffer tanks + RR? Either they stay closer to deal max damage to break reps and risk getting tackled/shot back, or they pull range and their dps drops off so as to be tankable. Or just don't aggress so as to jump/dock if you don't start in tackle range and know they will kite you, or just warp off if they pull too much range. You can still fly around fully when long-pointed.
Mfume Apocal Origin. Nulli Secunda 333	Posted - 2012.03.05 02:25:00 - [51] - Quote Jonathan Jax wrote: Forgive my newbness, but if kiters counter brawlers, what counters kiters? Brawlers who aren't dumb.
Meditril T.R.I.A.D 44	Posted - 2012.03.05 15:26:00 - [52] - Quote The natural counters of kiters are: Snipers (due to low buffer kiters die horribly fast to snipers acting from long range) Rapier or Huginn (long web = low speed = dead kiter) Curse or Heavy Neut in general (no cap = no MWD speed = dead kiter)
Jonathan Jax The Scope Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2012.03.05 18:11:00 - [53] - Quote Meditril wrote: The natural counters of kiters are: Snipers (due to low buffer kiters die horribly fast to snipers acting from long range) Rapier or Huginn (long web = low speed = dead kiter) Curse or Heavy Neut in general (no cap = no MWD speed = dead kiter) Thank you for the intelligent reply. :)
Meditril T.R.I.A.D 45	Posted - 2012.03.05 18:39:00 - [54] - Quote I forgot to mention another though nut for kiters: Missile boats in general. Caracals and Drakes easily make most kiters run.
Mfume Apocal Origin. Nulli Secunda 333	Posted - 2012.03.05 19:07:00 - [55] - Quote Jumping gates as well. If the brawler has links, you're pretty much guaranteed to be in web/scram range unless it's a regional gate.
Valleria Darkmoon Parsec Flux 9	Posted - 2012.03.05 21:56:00 - [56] - Quote Each type of ship has it's place and it depends on the situation which I will use. For the most part my slicer is the roaming ship of choice because it's much harder to catch than a slow brawler fit. Not long ago me and 3-4 corp mates would go to Hagilur and fight the E-Uni blobs over and over with nothing but frigates. We would be kite fit because E-Uni would typically have 15+ to our 5 and jamming support which we did not. The fact that we would engage it at all I think dispenses with the coward objection but to engage it with brawler fits would be nothing more than suicide and if I wanted to commit suicide in a manly way I would go outside right now and headbutt the sidewalk for an hour. Typical composition would consist of two pointers/fighters, slicer/firetail usually to get points and engage any frigates while the other 3 are in bombers and engage the large pointed targets (E-UNI always overships) and use various E-war to keep up the tacklers when they're in so deep (damps work great at keeping us from being permajammed). Additionally how many AB fit AFs did our slicer and firetail kill simply by holding them at about 20km and shooting them till they finally burn out or if active tanking run out of cap boosters. Brawling fits are much better for fights where you expect escalation and you have ways of repping, generally remote, and you'll be staying on the field until you hold it or until you're dead. You need to be kite fit if you're going around in a small gang of frigates with no hope of support being close by and you've got little to no scouting because there are so few of you around. As for brawling being the "honorable" way to fight, I've equated honor with stupidity since I started playing this game and there's a reason the dead are so often the "honored dead", just saying.
Valleria Darkmoon Parsec Flux 9	Posted - 2012.03.05 22:18:00 - [57] - Quote Ganjjabeard wrote: i was in a faction frig 1v1 last night vs a firetail with mwd and longpoint. it kited me at 19km and i was not able to escape or hit it with anything. quite frustrating because i tried manually pilotting to meet him where he'd be in 2-3 seconds but nothing worked. freakin 20km dude kited me for 15 minutes i couldnt get 1 shot off. and ill tell you this if it was a fair fight i woulda scraped him under my boot. but because e kited me at 20km i couldnt do jack **** :( That is pretty much exactly how it works and you won't catch me by trying to slingshot my orbit either because I manually fly to keep you at the correct range, although I will use keep at range if you try burning in a straight line for a few seconds (trying to slingshot me so you can catch me with the scram is a tactic I've seen far more than once). In general if you ask most of the members of my corp for a 1v1 with brawling frigates they'll take you up on it but our default position is kiting 9/10 times because we fight while outnumbered/outgunned and outECMed. We need the ability to disengage on a whim because fighting like that in brawlers is just feeding killmails. Maneuvering manually at 5km/s takes a lot more skill than you think especially when you consider that if you screw it up even a little and get tagged by a heated scram best case scenario is you've done enough damage to switch to close range ammo and win the brawl but overwhelming probability is that you just try to make sure your pod gets out.
Cedo Nulli Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 70	Posted - 2012.03.06 04:50:00 - [58] - Quote Kiting with your t3 boosts is lame ... no doubt about it. But if it makes you win .. then no reason not to. But brutal spacewarriors brawl ... I guess thats why I like amarr ^^
Cloora APEX Unlimited APEX Conglomerate 65	Posted - 2012.03.06 06:48:00 - [59] - Quote 100MN AB Tengus do pretty good against kiters. And Bhaalgorns. No kiter comes around one. CEO and Major ShareholderAPEX ConglomerateMaker of Starsi softdrinks and Torped-Os! Cereal http://www.altaholics.blogspot.com
March rabbit Ganse Shadow of xXDEATHXx 141	Posted - 2012.03.06 09:47:00 - [60] - Quote once i asked here: what to do to catch solo cynabal/vagabond if he is outside scram range? And i got something like this: you need Rapier + cynabal/vagabond I guess something is wrong here.... What is funny: the same situation with titan blobs (what is counter to titan blob? the bigger titan blob) makes people sure that it needs to be nerfed. While kiting (and especially gaymatar ships) is ok.

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