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Bruce Deorum
Minmatar
Mythos Corp
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.01 08:52:00 -
[1]
Hello.
The subject is simple. In empty space, unless other forces are applied all objects tend to keep their given state of motion, its called inertia. (i.e. Excuse me if my english are not 100% accurate with these terms).
In other words, when a ship gives a boost of mwd and reaches lets say 1000m/s this speed (unless the ship wants to turn...) should be kept for ever. Deccelaration shouldnt occur. Never. (again only if the ship goes straight line).
I can understand that this can drastically change the game balance, and to tell u the truth it must already have been examined by the devs, so i dont expect it to change.
Another side-effect of this are the armor plates that add to the mass.
Adding to the mass means that inertia gets higher (in physics terms, not in game terms). I have witnessed that when a BS has some 1600mm plates on, (apart from other drawbacks, i.e. lower max mwd speed, harder acceleration etc) when the mwd goes off, it brakes much more faster than a lighter (unplatted) BS! However exactly the opposite should occur, since higher mass gives more inertia! (normally as i have already explained the ship shouldnt brake at all... but dont make it lose speed faster, if we accept that losing speed is inevitable to keep some balance in the game at least make it lose speed at lower ratio, as the higher mass objects have higher inertia)
I hope my writings make sense.
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Fifth Horseman
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Posted - 2008.05.01 08:56:00 -
[2]
Also, I can hear weapons fire.
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"Tsssssssssst." trained to level 5.
95% less desire to reply to posts by 15 year olds per level.
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.05.01 08:58:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Bruce Deorum
I hope my writings make sense.
'
*sigh*
Repeat after me, "Movement in EVE:Online, Physics has nothing to do with it".
And now say it again and repeat until you understand.
______________________________________________
-You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
Terianna Eri
Amarr
Scrutari
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Posted - 2008.05.01 08:59:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Bruce Deorum
Another side-effect of this are the armor plates that add to the mass.
Adding to the mass means that inertia gets higher (in physics terms, not in game terms). I have witnessed that when a BS has some 1600mm plates on, (apart from other drawbacks, i.e. lower max mwd speed, harder acceleration etc) when the mwd goes off, it brakes much more faster than a lighter (unplatted) BS! However exactly the opposite should occur, since higher mass gives more inertia! (normally as i have already explained the ship shouldnt brake at all... but dont make it lose speed faster, if we accept that losing speed is inevitable to keep some balance in the game at least make it lose speed at lower ratio, as the higher mass objects have higher inertia)
turning on a MWD adds mass to your ship.
If you accept the premise that ships do in fact have a max velocity (which as you know is there for very good game balance reasons), then the time it takes to reach this max velocity (acceleration) is dependent on the mass of the ship (and is directly proportional)
i.e.
the more mass, the longer it takes to reach max velocity --> lower acceleration
if you are going at max velocity and turn on a microwarpdrive two things happen
a) max velocity changes
b) mass increases
your ship will accelerate to the new max velocity. it will take a longer time than normal because of the mass increase.
if you are going at max velocity and turn off a microwarpdrive two things happen
a) max velocity changes
b) mass decreases
your ship will accelerate to the new max velocity, and since your mass is now much lower, your acceleration is much higher, which means that you will always slow down faster when you turn off a MWD than you'll speed up when you turn it on
So while the fact that a max velocity exists at all doesn't comply with physics as we know them, the latter phenomenon makes sense.
ADDITIONALLY
If you have an unplated BS and a plated BS
the unplated BS will have greater acceleration whether the MWD is getting turned on or geting turned off.
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Bruce Deorum
Minmatar
Mythos Corp
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.01 09:04:00 -
[5]
I aggre.
Physics and EVE have nothing to do with each other.
But if we assume that there is a drag force, the platted BS shouldnt lose its speed as fast as the unplatted BS. Now exactly the opposite happens.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.05.01 09:05:00 -
[6]
Gameplay vs Realism
Obviously, since this is a game, realism always takes the back seat.
Could it be done so it's both realistic and the gameplay fun ? Probably.
But it would require a lot more effort, manpower which is not available.
1|2|3|4|5. |
pherlopolus
Primal Directive 7-B
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Posted - 2008.05.01 09:26:00 -
[7]
remember elite:frontiers?
that had a realistic flight model, it was completely unplayable (to me), i suggest you dig out a copy play it, then revel in the wonderfull eve flight model.
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mechtech
Entropy Industries
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Posted - 2008.05.01 09:31:00 -
[8]
So what?
Eve is anything but real, game-play is king.
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Shakuul
Caldari
Extreme Addiction
Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.05.01 09:39:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Fifth Horseman
Also, I can hear weapons fire.
there actually is an rp explanation for this...your ship computer generates sounds to give you more information about combat (one more sense = good)
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Euriti
Gallente
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.05.01 09:40:00 -
[10]
We're actually not in space but in the worlds largest fishtank.
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Riesia
Altruism.
Malice.
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Posted - 2008.05.01 09:45:00 -
[11]
Do you also go to WoW and say its unrealistic to shoot fireballs from your hands?
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.05.01 09:50:00 -
[12]
Originally by: pherlopolus
remember elite:frontiers?
that had a realistic flight model, it was completely unplayable (to me), i suggest you dig out a copy play it, then revel in the wonderfull eve flight model.
Actually, it was an awesome flight model, and I loved it.
I think I spent more time playing Elite : First Encounters (broken as it was) than I spent playing EVE.
Problem is, while it can work for a single player game (the time acceleration was the best feature)... it's completely unfeasable for a multiplayer game 
1|2|3|4|5. |
Benco97
Gallente
Exchangable Properties
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Posted - 2008.05.01 10:15:00 -
[13]
The problem is that if the flight model you wanted was introduced then EVE would die.
Simple as that. |
Fink Angel
Caldari
The Merry Men
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Posted - 2008.05.01 10:16:00 -
[14]
I'm always impressed by peoples detailed knowledge of the physics the other side of the Eve gate. The wormhole through space and time into who knows what alternate universe. Alternate reality = we don't know how physics work in it.
... and the sound is explained in a back story item. Pilots couldn't get used to the lack of audio feedback in the vacuum of space so the pods have a simulator that creates the audio for you. (Or something very much along those lines. That's from memory.) |
Fifth Horseman
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Posted - 2008.05.01 10:19:00 -
[15]
Originally by: pherlopolus
remember elite:frontiers?
that had a realistic flight model, it was completely unplayable (to me), i suggest you dig out a copy play it, then revel in the wonderfull eve flight model.
It worked fine for me. The autopilot took care of the approach vectoring, because a human brain would really struggle with that.
Once two ships are in proximity, and have relative speed to each which isn't excessive, the fact that they are both travelling at a million km per minute sideways doesn't make any difference to the ship-to-ship combat.
Any speed changes would be accurate in relation to each others ship and every thing worked perfectly.
That was what I thought I was going to find in Eve. That's what I hope to find in Infinity. |
Ovno ConSyquence
Amarr
LFC
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Posted - 2008.05.01 10:25:00 -
[16]
Yeah i was a dab hand at dog fighting in frontier, used to be able to kill any enemies in viper with a military hyperdrive, 1mw beam laser and 1 shield gen, loved that game soo much  |
Smackles
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Posted - 2008.05.01 10:33:00 -
[17]
game = not real = screw physics
Shut up already with the damn "why isn't eve perfectly accurate to the real world" post, not just you but all the other butt heads out there. We also don't have warp travel, jump gates, space fighter ships, pod technology, human cloning (especially not instantaneous and life and skill saving), we can't shoot through stuff irl without putting a hole in what we shot through, things in real life can't crash at 3km/second and just bounce away unharmed.
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The TX
Gallente
Earth Inc.
Zeta Tau Epsilon
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Posted - 2008.05.01 10:45:00 -
[18]
We are actually in liquid space in the EVE universe, but no-one told us.
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[Signature]
[/Signature]
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Stolen Lotus
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2008.05.01 10:47:00 -
[19]
You missed a chapter of the manual. Everyone knows that Eve is set underwater.
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Ovno ConSyquence
Amarr
LFC
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Posted - 2008.05.01 11:08:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Smackles
game = not real = screw physics
Shut up already with the damn "why isn't eve perfectly accurate to the real world" post, not just you but all the other butt heads out there. We also don't have warp travel, jump gates, space fighter ships, pod technology, human cloning (especially not instantaneous and life and skill saving), we can't shoot through stuff irl without putting a hole in what we shot through, things in real life can't crash at 3km/second and just bounce away unharmed.
Yes bu we can all happily imagine that we could have warp travel, jump gates, space fighter ships, pod technology and human cloning (especially not instantaneous and life and skill saving) in a sci-fi universe but many of us do find that the lack of real physics even if it made no gameplay difference breaks the immersion really badly, because you get weird things like, shooting through stuff and bouncing off stuff at 3 km/s and of course cornering like were boats.... |
Lee Thrace
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.05.01 11:13:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Riesia
Do you also go to WoW and say its unrealistic to shoot fireballs from your hands?
that made me laugh :D
but to reply to the this post. i think the OP knows EVE and physics have nothing to do with eachother. i think he was just thinking out loud about a possible change to eve on this subject
I swear , people have the patience of a ferret on amphetamines lately.
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Kirjava
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.05.01 11:16:00 -
[22]
Eve is easier on the brain to think of as a naval simulator, submarine warfare.
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. |
RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.05.01 11:45:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Kirjava
Eve is easier on the brain to think of as a naval simulator, submarine warfare.
Not even remotely close.
Try Silent Hunter III.
Or I-War/Starshatter for space physics.
EvE physics are non-existent. To be fair-it's not advertised as a simulator.
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way"
General George Patton USA
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Genghis Kitty
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Posted - 2008.05.01 12:14:00 -
[24]
You lie. It's totally realistic. I spend my entire day sitting in a pod full of my own wee with wires coming out of my head.
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Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2008.05.01 12:21:00 -
[25]
I've heard EVE is a game.
And as the old addage goes: balance > realism
You need to make sure a 'game' is balanced. Simulators, maybe not so much. But in this game where PVP is forgone conclusion, need to at least make it sort of fair.
The only way you could really call EVE a simulator is possibly in regards to the market. Possibly.
Originally by: Rachel Vend
... with 100% reliability in most cases ...
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Caiman Graystock
Quantum of Solace
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Posted - 2008.05.01 12:23:00 -
[26]
Faster than Light travel... totally realistic.
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.05.01 12:27:00 -
[27]
1980's Asteroids game has better physics....and when you hit a rock you would blow up too  .
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way"
General George Patton USA
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Obama Girl
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Posted - 2008.05.01 12:35:00 -
[28]
i can crash with my frigate going 3400 m/s into an asteroid or a space station and won't take any damage
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Bruce Deorum
Minmatar
Mythos Corp
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.01 12:42:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Bruce Deorum on 01/05/2008 12:43:20
The topic of this thread isnt "LIST ALL UNREALISTIC THINGS IN EVE"
I was the first to point out that change in accelaration/top speed mechanics would completely mess up the gameplay.
But if we assume that there is a drag force (like airplanes in real atmosphere) then heavier mass objects (plated BS vs simple BS/ BS vs Frigs) would decellerate slower as they already accelerate slower. As hard it is to build up their speed, the same hard would be to lose their speed. Whereas now is exactly the opposite. I dont think this would alter much the game balance.
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Trathen
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Posted - 2008.05.01 12:54:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Bruce Deorum
But if we assume that there is a drag force (like airplanes in real atmosphere) then heavier mass objects (plated BS vs simple BS/ BS vs Frigs) would decellerate slower as they already accelerate slower. As hard it is to build up their speed, the same hard would be to lose their speed. Whereas now is exactly the opposite. I dont think this would alter much the game balance.
Not necessarily. Drag and thrust are two different things. You could give an aerodynamic plane very weak thrust and it would take forever to decelerate compared to acceleration and vice versa.
Although a lot of EvE ships don't look aerodynamic, if it really makes you feel better you can image the universe is more "soupy" than the RL galaxy.
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Auron Shadowbane
Pelennor Swarm
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.01 12:54:00 -
[31]
welcome to genesis...
imagine a ceptor race without max velocity... instead of frames per second you could measure it in grids per second...
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Seetesh
Caldari
Pixels Docks
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Posted - 2008.05.01 13:00:00 -
[32]
I was chatting to some of my physics students concerning eve on monday and this came up, and as a PHD in high energy physics i can agree without a doubt that the accelaration and deccelaration are broken in eve.
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Mara Rinn
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.05.01 14:56:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Euriti
We're actually not in space but in the worlds largest fishtank.
^ what he said
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Khellendra
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Posted - 2008.05.01 15:21:00 -
[34]
Actually, you guys are incorrect.
A ship can slow down if it has forward thrusters at the head of the ship that slow it down by inducing a force in the opposite direction of motion. It's akin to being able to go forward and reverse at the same time in your car.
Thus when you accelerate you hit the back thrusters and lunge forward, to slow down, you have forward thrusters to counteract the work done. So you can decelerate and slow down in space.
Now, of course max velocity is an issue as there really shouldn't be max velocity, but oh well. I really think EVE breaks physics egregiously when refining refinables
You have 10,000 units of refinables and it takes up 10,000 m3 of space. But when you refine it, it's now taking up a hell of a lot more space. Unless of course, the minerals are actually hollow and the mass remains the same :).
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5pinDizzy
Amarr
Pwnage Distribution Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.01 15:35:00 -
[35]
Yeeaah!
And anyone noticed ships just disapear when they dock?
And Asteroid belts around planets are TINY and in weird shapes?
And Heavier ships go slower in a place where there is no weight?
And Ships Fly Through Planets?
And The engines of normal ships use NOTHING and will work forever.
And it takes the repair station onboard a ship 1 second to repair anything.
And noone throws up or dies from the horrid effects of inertia.
And most systems are full of clouds and gasses of different colours.
And armor repairers somehow make the shell of your ship like new infinity times over.
And concord police magically appear out of nowhere and magically jam all your systems.
And outposts in the depths of space can disapear and reappear randomly.
And a tiny disposable can holds more inside it then everything below tech 2 haulers.
And the jumpgates which can jump huge distances, are linked extremely ineffeciently.
And the planets are like solid marbles that your ship bounces off.
And weapons that NEVER miss DOING DIRECT VISIBLE DAMAGE can end up missing all the time.
And...
And...
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caladron prime
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.05.01 15:43:00 -
[36]
Assuming that eve-space is actually a medium as opposed to a vacuum, it is possible for a ship of higher mass to decelerate more quickly than a ship of less mass, if the additional mass was in the form of additions to the exterior of the ship that in turn changed its drag profile. If the additional surface area of 1600mm plate was sufficient to induce more drag than the increase in inertia that the mass of the plates caused, you would achieve quicker deceleration. picture a 1 lb arrow shot into water. another arrow of the exact dimension and shape, but made of heavier material, would cut through more water. however, a 2 lb object shaped into, say, a porous (like screen) sphere, would decelerate more quickly.
and, one more thing-IT'S A GAME!
.02isk
Originally by: CCP Navigator
That long?
I would have nerfed it before it was created 
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Archon T'orn
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Posted - 2008.05.01 15:57:00 -
[37]
Be glad we're not using a real physics model for propulsion in Eve. If we were, and your aft thrusters (which you would need unless you turned around) were as powerful as your stern thrusters, then it would take you just as long to slow down as it would to get to your maximum speed (not there would be a maximum speed, it would merely be time dependent as there is no drag to halt your momentum); i.e., it would take you forever to get from A to B not to mention that flying around in combat would be a computational nightmare.
If you want realism, GO OUTSIDE! |
Billy Sastard
Amarr
Life. Universe. Everything.
Wrath.
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Posted - 2008.05.01 16:02:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Bruce Deorum
...words...
OMG!! Another person just realised that EVE is not RL!!!
Yea, the physics in EVE is not realistic at all, along with any number of other things that I could list but will not, as there is no real purpose arguing about it, as this is a game and not a newtonian physics simulator.
You could have found any number of posts harping about this same thing if you had done a simple search of the forums.
Let the deceased equine flogging be halted, as this thread shall go nowhere fast.
-=^=-
My views do not represent my alliance. TBH, my posts do not even represent my own views...I am posting while asleep. |
Dristra
Amarr
Shadows of the Dead
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.05.01 17:39:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Euriti
We're actually not in space but in the worlds largest fishtank.
^ what he said
Wrong, its motor oil, this has been calculated at some earlier time.
Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions!
I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them. |
Val Vesta
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Posted - 2008.05.01 18:21:00 -
[40]
Until they fix flying through planets (******** the first time but more and more entertaining every time after), all the other stuff is easily acceptible.
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Diomidis
Amarr
Mythos Corp
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.01 18:21:00 -
[41]
* Drag cannot be completely removed out of the equation in real-life Space travel physics. But then only streamlined Amarr ships could travel fast and Minmatar ships should "drag" themselves to death (aka Slowboat). Space unlike comfortably assumed by many cannot be simulated by void. (sorry about my pure English in some terms). "Stardust" exists and friction with each and every spacecraft is severe in high speeds. Than again Drag is so low in speeds less than hundreds of thousands km/h (aka EVE-sub-warp-speeds) that could be left out.
* Drag is irrelevant to mass, thus top speed is irrelevant to mass. But inertia is relevant to mass, and relevant to acceleration, so a heavy ship "streamlined" adequately to sustain 1000 m/s with Y amount of thrust will reach roughly that speed sooner or later. A lighter ship with the same drag factor could accelerate to 1000 m/s (or decelerate to 0 m/s) sooner due to the less inertia it would require to overcome, still it could never overcome the maximum drag that defines the top speed. Without drag, even the slightest thrust could accelerate slowly each and every object out to "close-to-the-speed-of-light" speeds.
So yes, I would agree that extra mass = plates should add inertia and make ships turn and accelerate slower, not lowering top speed.
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