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Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.07.15 01:18:00 - [31] Originally by: Elhina Novae Originally by: Tanith YarnDemon Originally by: Elhina Novae Originally by: Wild Rho Originally by: Elhina Novae can give you about the same DPS as T2? They don't. Tech 2 guns get an extra damage boost per level from the appropriate weapon specialisation skill. Faction can be useful as they are less skill and fitting intensive but for raw damage tech 2 wins every time. Yes T2 guns are better by a very small margin in the DPS appartment. Damage Multiplier: T2 Tachyon x5.4 Faction Tachyon x5.625 Now given that 8% boost with Specialization level 4 T2 Tachyon x5.832 Faction Tachyon x5.6 Yes T2 Tachyon wins DPS wise, but taking a look at the capacitor consumption the Faction ones only take 75% as much as the T2. That trade off many many people will do just too make sure they can run a tank 24/7. Where to begin... =) T2 are about 3.7%(spec 4) higher per shot, each shot takes 75% as much cap. Since missions generally are not a struggle to survive for a certain amount of time but to inflict X amount of damage onto your opponent, and they are actively repairing higher dps will mean a higher efficiancy for missions. With the addition of t2 ammo, the fact that they repair and such you can round the damage advantage up to about 5%. This would in turn mean that the cap advantage per unit of damage is about 80% for the faction guns. Now, when you calculate for permanent tanks there's several reasons to use them, you might fear lag, you might want to be safe for falling asleep - honestly I couldn't care less for your reasons - but there are reasons. However, the one thing that does not add up is that you keep adding the cap usage of the guns into the equation. To fire a gun, you have to be active, you have to press the button yourself, you have to be there and decide to take the action of firing a gun. This means the cap usage is ENTIRELY irrelevant the instant your tank can hold itself when you're not firing. Further more it's nearly impossible to actually calculate the factual cap use of turrets since they will have downtime and not be firing 23/7. In the end there's down to two rational reasons to ever use low-end faction turrets over Tech 2 - one being fitting other being skills. If those last few points of CPU is that precious - go ahead, if you are to new to the game to have the skills for T2 - well you don't have much choice then do you? Imho, that overshades minor flaws such as a 0.025 disappearing here or there or the fact that you intend to run a tank for longer than there is a server online. Personally I don't permatank mission but if you look around on forums with all the EFT *****s around, most people wants to do that no matter if it's good or not. Having a tank last for about 4 minutes is enough for missions, rare cases may exist <.< my raven fits 4 damage mods and perma tanks, my pally fits 3 damage mods and permatanks If I didn't face craptacular frequent random disconnects I would love to fit up without the permatank. also if you are new to the game dont have the skills to fit t2 and are flying a paladin, well
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.07.15 01:19:00 - [32] Originally by: Clueless Alt Originally by: Reiisha Especially when you're not maxed out on every possible cap skill, this will matter Running high end amarr battleship without maxing cap skill is criminal. **** I don't even know where to begin on that one
Mia Archer Amarr Insidious Existence RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.15 03:41:00 - [33] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton Originally by: Clueless Alt Originally by: Reiisha Especially when you're not maxed out on every possible cap skill, this will matter Running high end amarr battleship without maxing cap skill is criminal. **** I don't even know where to begin on that one Its an accurate statement, Maxed cap skills are crucial for Amarr Battleships. If you don't have them and don't want to train them you should fly something else otherwise your simply not using the ships to their true potential
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.07.15 04:52:00 - [34] TBH, I could see training for t2 weapons or paladin even before getting energy management 5. There are lots of setups that you can get cap stable or damn close with sys 5 man 4, and while the extra cap might not help you finish missions faster, extra gank will. Long term, sure, max cap skills are a given, but if you don't have them and want to train other things in the meantime, it's not that big a deal imo for someone to use faction Tachyons until they get around to maxxing Emanagement 5.
Reiisha Splint Eye Probabilities Inc. Dawn of Transcendence	Posted - 2008.07.15 08:35:00 - [35] Originally by: Tanith YarnDemon Where to begin... =) T2 are about 3.7%(spec 4) higher per shot, each shot takes 75% as much cap. Since missions generally are not a struggle to survive for a certain amount of time but to inflict X amount of damage onto your opponent, and they are actively repairing higher dps will mean a higher efficiancy for missions. With the addition of t2 ammo, the fact that they repair and such you can round the damage advantage up to about 5%. This would in turn mean that the cap advantage per unit of damage is about 80% for the faction guns. Now, when you calculate for permanent tanks there's several reasons to use them, you might fear lag, you might want to be safe for falling asleep - honestly I couldn't care less for your reasons - but there are reasons. However, the one thing that does not add up is that you keep adding the cap usage of the guns into the equation. To fire a gun, you have to be active, you have to press the button yourself, you have to be there and decide to take the action of firing a gun. This means the cap usage is ENTIRELY irrelevant the instant your tank can hold itself when you're not firing. Further more it's nearly impossible to actually calculate the factual cap use of turrets since they will have downtime and not be firing 23/7. In the end there's down to two rational reasons to ever use low-end faction turrets over Tech 2 - one being fitting other being skills. If those last few points of CPU is that precious - go ahead, if you are to new to the game to have the skills for T2 - well you don't have much choice then do you? Imho, that overshades minor flaws such as a 0.025 disappearing here or there or the fact that you intend to run a tank for longer than there is a server online. A permatank does have some other advantages. Lag, for one, as you mentioned, but also nossing (bloods) will have a lot less effect than if you were trying to cut it as close as possible. Aurora won't be able to cut through a BS at long range fast enough sometimes, so you'll have to buy some time and get there to use MF. And still, faction ammo > T2 ammo. Aurora isn't really that useful if you're trying to actually do damage, which is what everyone apparently wants, and Gleam is simply too short range. Not to mention that AN ammo does about the same damage with none of the drawbacks, and DB/TS crystals are even better. Including downtime, i would have to take ~6 cap/s into account in any setup, and weigh it against 5.6% damage. Ignoring cap alltogether might result in you not being able to fire guns at all, whereas permatank setups have a lot more leeway in how they can handle situations. EVE History Wiki
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2008.07.15 20:04:00 - [36] any pvp setup ? www.garia.net
Reiisha Splint Eye Probabilities Inc. Dawn of Transcendence	Posted - 2008.07.16 02:09:00 - [37] Originally by: Garia666 any pvp setup ? I think the Abaddon is overall a much wiser choice for PvP than the Paladin, considering the same kind of setup. The Abaddon's resist bonus is simply better than the Paladin's rep bonus, it's a lot cheaper, and it has a 3rd slot for a trimark. Even the Paladin's utility slots can't save it. PvE = Paladin. PvP = Abaddon. EVE History Wiki
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.07.16 03:43:00 - [38] Originally by: Mia Archer Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton Originally by: Clueless Alt Originally by: Reiisha Especially when you're not maxed out on every possible cap skill, this will matter Running high end amarr battleship without maxing cap skill is criminal. **** I don't even know where to begin on that one Its an accurate statement, Maxed cap skills are crucial for Amarr Battleships. If you don't have them and don't want to train them you should fly something else otherwise your simply not using the ships to their true potential I was agreeing with him
Poision Kevin Amarr Big Shadows	Posted - 2008.09.01 06:25:00 - [39] This is my Paladin fitting: HI: 4x Mega Pulse Lasers II, 1x tractor beam, 1x salvager, 1x dronelink argumenter. MEDS: 1x Gist A-TYPE 100MN AB, 3x Cap Rechargers II LOWS: 1x AN LAR, 1x EANM, 3x rat specific hardners, 2 AN HeatSinks BTW the AN large armor repair will be switched to a corpum x or centus x-type
Fennicus Amarr Heracles.	Posted - 2008.09.01 13:30:00 - [40] If you want an A-type large repair and tachyon beam lasers, you're going to need a reactor control module; if you're going to do that then it seems to me you may as well consider fitting a heavy nosferatu instead of one of the tractor beams and thus freeing up some rigs or a mid slot for something else.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.09.01 13:42:00 - [41] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 01/09/2008 13:42:30 Originally by: Boz Well TBH, I could see training for t2 weapons or paladin even before getting energy management 5. I frankly don't see anyone training for Marauders before getting a generally crucial rank 3 skill to V. I mean, it's a prerequisite for Thermodynamics. Makes it preety mandatory for everyone
forum mematar	Posted - 2008.09.01 17:07:00 - [42] 4x Mega Pulse II 2x Large Solace 1x Large Y-F12 Smartbomb 1x ECCM 1x Domi Disruptor 1x Domi Web 1x Heavy Cap Booster II 2x 1600mm Tungsten 2x Amarr Navy EANM 1x DCU II 2x Navy Heat Sink 2x Trimark pewpew!
Acolite	Posted - 2008.09.01 19:43:00 - [43] My PvE PWNadin High Slots -Mega Pulse Laser II - Scorch L x 4 -Small Tractor Beam I -Salvager I -Drone Link Augmentor I Medium Slots -Cap Recharger IIx 4 Low Slots -Amarr Navy Large Armor Repairer x2 -Mission Specific Armor Hardner II x 4 -Amarr Navy Heat Sink Rigs -Capacitor Control Circuit I x 2 Drones -Mission Specific Medium Scout Drone x 5 Relativly cheap Perma-tanks any level 4 mission Pumps out around 680 DPS Overall better then my Tachyon setup
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.09.01 20:07:00 - [44] 1 heatsink? 680 DPS? Heretic. 3 Heatsinks MINIMUM. My abaddon puts out about 1k DPS, and I don't even have BS 5.... gank tank or go home.
Dorah Hawkwing Armada.	Posted - 2008.09.01 20:58:00 - [45] Edited by: Dorah Hawkwing on 01/09/2008 21:00:27 4* Tachyon 2 3* Cap recharger, 1* Web DB LAR, 3* AN HS, 1 TS EANM, 2 Hardeners 2* CCC Sustainable tank, huge gank with AN MF crystals. And train cap skils to 5 before going for the Paladin. It helps you make the isk to buy it in your T1 BS. 890 dps at Paladin 4 and beam spec 3. Add drones. For Enemies abound 5/5 and AE bonus room, drop a HS and add more res mods.
Sensaia Amarr CRYO THESIS	Posted - 2008.09.23 13:47:00 - [46] My faction setup, ganks and tanks all missions ive tried! will switch all mods to officers as i get isk for them :) All mods got MAX skills for best usage!.....WHOOHOO 4xDark Blood Tachyons AN crystals 1xsalvager 2xtractor beam 1xSerp sensor booster 1xSerp tracking comp 2xDark blood cap rechargers 1xLarge Dark Blood repper 2xAN eamn 2xTs rat specific hardener 2xAN heat sinks 2xCCC II rigs Hammerheads II
Grahv Exitus Minmatar Noob Mercs	Posted - 2008.09.23 15:33:00 - [47] Originally by: Mia Archer Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton Originally by: Clueless Alt Originally by: Reiisha Especially when you're not maxed out on every possible cap skill, this will matter Running high end amarr battleship without maxing cap skill is criminal. **** I don't even know where to begin on that one Its an accurate statement, Maxed cap skills are crucial for Amarr Battleships. If you don't have them and don't want to train them you should fly something else otherwise your simply not using the ships to their true potential I always assumed that maxing out cap and fitting skills was almost mandatory, sorta like making sure your gunnery or missile-related support skills are trained to at least IV if not V. IMHO, those kind of skills should take priority over training for a T2 ship of any kind as you'll see more benefit from high or maxed support skills than you will from training for interceptors or recons right off the bat. ...In my experience it's really nice not having to worry about cap'ing out as often, and having maxed cap skills before I step foot into any Amarr laser boat is very satisfying. (just trained for t2 small lasers, still not ready to hit undock though.)
Coriander Rinne Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:00:00 - [48] To be honest I don't even have Energy Management V and I still don't have cap issues with T2 tachs. 4x Tach II w/e utility tracking comp 3x cap recharger faction rep 3x hards 3x heat sinks 2x CCC The capacitor only starts straining when I'm firing on more than 6-7 serp/gurista/angel battleships in a row, and pausing for about five seconds or skipping a cycle with the rep fixes it. No, it's not technically "cap stable" according to EFT, but I've never had it even come close to capping out in a couple months of usage. Just manage your ship a little, or go fly a Dominix if you don't wanna bother.
StinkFinger Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.09.23 19:37:00 - [49] nightmare >>> paladin due to to its tracking bonus and shield tanking is better then armor tanking for pve. Originally by: Karanth That's like sitting on your hand till it goes numb, so it's like a stranger. It's not as satisfying, and I'LL know the difference.
Varkyl Wydon	Posted - 2008.09.23 19:48:00 - [50] Originally by: Acolite My PvE PWNadin stuff *Dribbles out around 680 DPS There I fixed it for you. If you aren't over 1k DPS on a Paladin EFT fitting then you need more training time or in a case like this more HS's. And as to the comment about the Nightmare being greater than the Paladin. That is just personal preference since they will do the same kind of damage and if you are using Tachs you really don't get into ranges that the tracking bonus would be worth it.
Durzel Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.23 22:37:00 - [51] Originally by: Varkyl Wydon Originally by: Acolite My PvE PWNadin stuff *Dribbles out around 680 DPS There I fixed it for you. If you aren't over 1k DPS on a Paladin EFT fitting then you need more training time or in a case like this more HS's. And as to the comment about the Nightmare being greater than the Paladin. That is just personal preference since they will do the same kind of damage and if you are using Tachs you really don't get into ranges that the tracking bonus would be worth it. ..except in missions where you arrive and you're already only 10-20km away from all of the rats.
Acolite	Posted - 2008.09.24 00:12:00 - [52] Originally by: Varkyl Wydon Originally by: Acolite My PvE PWNadin stuff *Dribbles out around 680 DPS There I fixed it for you. If you aren't over 1k DPS on a Paladin EFT fitting then you need more training time or in a case like this more HS's. And as to the comment about the Nightmare being greater than the Paladin. That is just personal preference since they will do the same kind of damage and if you are using Tachs you really don't get into ranges that the tracking bonus would be worth it. So because I dont have a gank tank my setup is wrong? I'm gonna go out on a limb and call you a hypocrite if you say that and then two sentences later talk about personal preference.
Aarin Wrath Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.29 20:36:00 - [53] My Setup (just got one) High 4 x T2 Tachs 1 x Salvager 1 x Tractor 1 x Drone Aug link (drones out to 74k!) Mid 1 x Web 3 x Cap recharger 2 Low KNLAR (cant fit a T2 LAR along with T2 Tachs) 3 x Rat Specific active hardeners 3 x Heat Sink 2 Rigs None (just testing it out still) Plan Fit it with 3 CCC in when I get enough isk, and chuck in a target painter in one of the mids. Thoughts on the painter? waste of a mid? Originally by: Varkyl Wydon And as to the comment about the Nightmare being greater than the Paladin. That is just personal preference since they will do the same kind of damage and if you are using Tachs you really don't get into ranges that the tracking bonus would be worth it. I agree. Its nice to be able to hit cruisers at 30km with Tachs, but for me that's within drone range. So the extra tracking isnt as great as its made out to be. However, the tractor bonus on the Paladin is underated IMHO.
JenDen Caldari The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2008.09.29 21:45:00 - [54] I see very few people using cap boosters. I am aware of perma-tanking & afk-missioning concepts, but in case you're actually paying attention to the process - don't you get better overall performance with cap booster? My choice is ab + cb + 2x tracking computers, feels more versatile and makes me refit less often. - Sig: StackNerfing * GangLinks
Astorothe Aperture Science Industries	Posted - 2008.11.21 09:39:00 - [55] I'd say the lack of boosters is because most folks use the Paladin for PvE Missions and want to not have to worry about managing their health and cap. RPGN Gaming Network - Eve News, Gaming News, Forums & Community - Home of Aperture Science Corp [ApSci]
Astorothe Aperture Science Industries	Posted - 2008.11.21 09:55:00 - [56] I figured I'd start looking at some different fit outs for the Pally - one that could tank just about anything a level 4 could throw at you and still do enough damage to get through them. I also wanted to set it so that it could perma-tank passively so you could have a nice mind-numbing experience :) Not my favourite fitting - I find it too low on the damage side of things (only 620 dps) - but if you want to be very confident, it's worth a shot. Came up with this: True Sansha Large Armor Repairer True Sansha Large Armor Repairer Capacitor Power Relay II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Reactor Control Unit II Heat Sink II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L Small Tractor Beam I Salvager I Drone Link Augmentor I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5
Kerdrak 3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.21 11:47:00 - [57] CCC's? WTF, that's for pussies [Paladin, Tachyon missions] Amarr Navy Large Armor Repairer Damage Control II Armor Thermic Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Amarr Navy Heat Sink Amarr Navy Heat Sink Amarr Navy Heat Sink Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Nanobot Accelerator II Auxiliary Nano Pump II Ogre II x1 Hammerhead II x2 Hobgoblin II x1
Grarr Dexx Amarr The Cosa Nostra La Cosa Nostra Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.21 12:19:00 - [58] 'Poor man's' Paladin? Ain't the ship itself like over half a billion?
Zo5o Longcat is Long	Posted - 2008.11.21 12:36:00 - [59] Edited by: Zo5o on 21/11/2008 12:37:54 Re: faction tachs vs. t2 tachs: Faction tachs allow you to fit an extra heat sink and still keep approximately the same cap use. This means that they actually do MORE damage for the same amount of cap use. And since most amarr missions are vs. em/therm-dealing rats, and armor tanks have naturally high resist against EM, this means that 1 LAR, 1 EM Hardener, 1 Therm Hardener, 4 Heat Sink setups become very, very viable. Keep this in mind when you want your cap to last X amount of time with your guns firing.
Shemhamphorash	Posted - 2008.11.21 12:42:00 - [60] Why does everyone always wanne permarun? Ies Bullshiet

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