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Fustor	Posted - 2008.05.02 15:28:00 - [1] all skill's someone need to play eve for free are.. 1.Engineering lv2 2.Electronics Lv2 3.Electronic upgrades lv1 4.Science lv3 5.Astrometrics lv4 6.Survey lv3 7.Mechanic lv3 8 Salvaging lv3 Lets say you need 2 days for that skills.. and you have 12 days to do Sneak and salvage lv4 missions.. all you need is Destroyer+Photonic cpu enhancer+Recon probe launcher and salvagers...go in system where you see over 200ppl and system have lv4 agents.. warp to star and use spook probe...open solarsystem map and warp to green or yellow scan result... you will see gate or lot of wrecks ... as evry wreck drop 4x armor plates or something like that ... you can create more then 20 mil per hour so in 2 days you can upgrade trail account.. I will also post pettion bcz lot of ppl doing that and only way to keep your salvage is to be in dominix with salvagers ,marauder or play with friend.
Asestorian Domination. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.02 15:34:00 - [2] Well, eventually I managed to understand what's going on. You're complaining about salvage "thieves". It's been explained countless times that while the contents of wrecks, aka the loot, is owned by the person who generated said wrecks, the salvage is not owned by anyone, and this is intended. Stop missioning in ridiculously overpopulated and laggy systems and you won't have to worry about it, will you? I've done loads of missions and not had anyone steal my salvage. Also, don't petition about it because it's a waste of time and fills up the petition queue, making things take longer for those that actually have a valid reason for their petitions.
Hennry Fromer radiated space gerbils	Posted - 2008.05.02 15:34:00 - [3] there are two other things you will need the intelligence to plan and the initiative to do it. What would you propose? that CCP go back to when you had to empty the wreck (and get agro) before you can salvage? Personally if someone has the initiative to do it and is in a war decable corp more power to them, their risk and reward.
Fustor	Posted - 2008.05.02 15:36:00 - [4] Edited by: Fustor on 02/05/2008 15:36:37 Im talking only about salvaging...they just sneak and salvage they dont take any loot..and if only salvage they dont have aggresion timer
Alora Venoda GalTech Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2008.05.02 15:36:00 - [5] Originally by: Fustor as evry wreck drop 4x armor plates or something like that ... you can create more then 20 mil per hour so in 2 days you can upgrade trail account.. haha... but no. half the wrecks in a mission have no salvage at all and many of them have worthless salvage like charred micro. and different kinds of rats drop different hi-end salvage. but yes, as more people do this you may want to try running missions in less popular systems
Frug Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.05.02 15:37:00 - [6] Oh crap guys! There's a way to make isk that isn't blindly grinding through missions but actually requires some thought and might even involve interacting or gasp stealing from other players! Fix it, it must be broken.
Fustor	Posted - 2008.05.02 15:38:00 - [7] btw Im doing that bcz I need 8 for jumpclone .. and dont want to do missions only for bounty
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.05.02 15:39:00 - [8] If you dont run your mission or rat where everyone else is, you really have wont have this problem. These so called "salvage thieves" only seem to be present in high pop. mission running hubs, so think of them as part of the risk in opposition to the higher reward of those higher quality agents. Trust me when I say if you head off to a lower quality agent, you will run into these wreck stealing folk far less often.
Asestorian Domination. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.02 15:40:00 - [9] Originally by: Fustor btw Im doing that bcz I need 8 for jumpclone .. and dont want to do missions only for bounty So then, what's the problem?
Amastat Caldari Omegatech	Posted - 2008.05.02 15:40:00 - [10] Edited by: Amastat on 02/05/2008 15:43:18 Edited by: Amastat on 02/05/2008 15:42:20 Originally by: Fustor all skill's someone need to play eve for free are.. 1.Engineering lv2 2.Electronics Lv2 3.Electronic upgrades lv1 4.Science lv3 5.Astrometrics lv4 6.Survey lv3 7.Mechanic lv3 8 Salvaging lv3 Lets say you need 2 days for that skills.. and you have 12 days to do Sneak and salvage lv4 missions.. all you need is Destroyer+Photonic cpu enhancer+Recon probe launcher and salvagers...go in system where you see over 200ppl and system have lv4 agents.. warp to star and use spook probe...open solarsystem map and warp to green or yellow scan result... you will see gate or lot of wrecks ... as evry wreck drop 4x armor plates or something like that ... you can create more then 20 mil per hour so in 2 days you can upgrade trail account.. I will also post pettion bcz lot of ppl doing that and only way to keep your salvage is to be in dominix with salvagers ,marauder or play with friend. That sound's a awful lot like a salvage-thief's skill plan for whenever a new alt is made :P I think you thieves have it good enough having absolutely no consequences at all jacking all the carebears stuff, I think CCP giving starting chars that entire skill-set so you have no wait time to make a new thief alt is a great way for CCP to majorly **** off a lot of their players - and I'm not talking about the worthless vocal minority either :P
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.02 15:40:00 - [11] I endorse the OP's poast and encourage all playes to annoy the crap out of mission runners in crowded high sec systems.
Dianeces Minmatar The Illuminati.	Posted - 2008.05.02 15:42:00 - [12] Posting in a nerf salvage "thieves" tread.
Fustor	Posted - 2008.05.02 15:44:00 - [13] yes that is plan.. they all do that.. in 2 days they become a thief as all skills can be trained on trail account... btw I dont have alt ... Im doing exploration in 0.0 but noticed as I tried to make standing for jumpclone
Shionoya Risa The Xenodus Initiative. Overclockers Podpilot Services	Posted - 2008.05.02 15:51:00 - [14] Originally by: Fustor yes that is plan.. they all do that.. in 2 days they become a thief as all skills can be trained on trail account... I'd love to see someone with little learning skills do that plan in 2 days.
Emily Spankratchet Minmatar Pragmatics	Posted - 2008.05.02 15:56:00 - [15] A nice CCP employee posted in the Missions & Exploration forum a couple of months ago to make this clear. Originally by: GM Faolchu This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. This is how CCP want Eve to be. Until they change their minds, salvaging from under mission runners' noses is a perfectly valid profession. Petitioning will not help you. Also, try running missions in a system without 200 other sheep.
Amastat Caldari Omegatech	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:00:00 - [16] I think the whole risk-free salvage theft, and the whole 'salvage is space wreckage' debate is broken and stupid and unbalanced - there is nothing that can be said to say it is right. Salvage thieves do not bother me however, and I can appreciate how it can drive the mission runners away from the busy hubs and help reduce lag a little, but the amount of help it does is practically non-existent and does not in any way justify that entire salvage mechanic as a balanced, working, and fair component EVE. I personally think its a crap way to make money and I would only ever go through the trouble to probe someones pocket to jack all their salvage to ** them off. It's more a tool to grief then profit I think, there is dozens of other things a pilot can do other than that and make a better profit. I run missions as my main source of active income, but I'm purely a combat spec pilot so it has not been often a salvage thief has outmaneuvered and outdone me. In only one situation has a salvage thief ever robbed me blind, I always completely outpaced every other attempt made. I also have a large network of mission battleships and agents I use, most are not in busy places, so it's rare I see them anymore. The only thing about the entire mechanic that gets on my nerves besides the complete unbalance and favoritism of it all - is that most of those thieves, when I do see them, weither they hit me or not they are almost always in npc corps. Can't wardec and camp the bastards - another item on the list of why its such a risk-free profession. I actually motion to say that the profession of being a salvage-thief is more risk-free then the jobs of the mission runners they steal from :P The upset thief's who read this can think as hard as you like, you have absolutely no defense and never will have one. My best guess of why CCP has ignored the salvage system and the complaints from the mission runners is that they have been having a lot of pressure from pirates who are struggling to find marks in low sec anymore, and the wall known as high-sec between them and carebears is nearly impenetrable. So, it was the whining of the pirates I think is what caused CCP to completely ignore and disregard it all. It would be more balanced and productive if CCP introduced a reason that would force carebears to come into low-sec, at least a portion of them, so the pirates stop *ing, and the carebears don't have to *** about CCP's goofup balance issues like the salvage crap.
Alora Venoda GalTech Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:01:00 - [17] Originally by: Fustor yes that is plan.. they all do that.. in 2 days they become a thief as all skills can be trained on trail account... btw I dont have alt ... Im doing exploration in 0.0 but noticed as I tried to make standing for jumpclone you can use a lvl 4 agent with -20 quality and get same standings increase as a lvl 4 agent with +20 quality... the payout will just be a bit lower. also, courier missions while even more of a grind, can be a faster and easier way to simply raise standings.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:02:00 - [18] Sounds great ! I think I need to make a salvage hunter alt. What race/bloodline/career/specialization do you propose?
Cptn Obvious POASTERS UNITED	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:06:00 - [19] Originally by: Abrazzar Sounds great ! I think I need to make a salvage hunter alt. What race/bloodline/career/specialization do you propose? sounds indeed great! what probes i should use?
Laura Steel The Chaotic Order Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:08:00 - [20] Dont you have to pay to upgrade your account regardless?
Amastat Caldari Omegatech	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:09:00 - [21] Edited by: Amastat on 02/05/2008 16:11:54 Originally by: Emily Spankratchet A nice CCP employee posted in the Missions & Exploration forum a couple of months ago to make this clear. Originally by: GM Faolchu This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. This is how CCP want Eve to be. Until they change their minds, salvaging from under mission runners' noses is a perfectly valid profession. Petitioning will not help you. Also, try running missions in a system without 200 other sheep. I'm sorry but that CCP employee is trying, but cannot justify the fact they will not change it. "The players are salvaging what is effectivly floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage." Sorry but CCP has rocks in there heads to say that and think people won't think its fair and impartial. Wrecks are floating rubbish - but jetcans and the loot inside teh wrecks are too. Why does concord act on that? The crying thieves may also attempt to pull out the wrecks are trash card and are owned by no one. Wrong: that is not true until CCP makes it so that the loot inside wrecks are treated like the salvage, and anyone can put a tractor beam on any wreck. By putting a tractor beam on a yellow wreck, the game itself tells you that the wreck is not trash that belongs to nobody. Until CCP changes the game in which jetcans, and wreck loot is treated the same as salvage, and you can tractor other players wrecks and cans, the current salvage system is not balanced and is not in line with the entire system. CCP contradicts their own justification against their refusal to change the mechanics. Will CCP make this motion? Please, by all means GO AHEAD - I will retract my argument FULLY if it is done. I am waiting CCP.
Cptn Obvious POASTERS UNITED	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:11:00 - [22] Originally by: Laura Steel Dont you have to pay to upgrade your account regardless? no
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:12:00 - [23] Originally by: Laura Steel Dont you have to pay to upgrade your account regardless? You can use a GTC to activate your trial account. I think they deduct a few days to cover the extra $5.
Cptn Obvious POASTERS UNITED	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:12:00 - [24] Originally by: Amastat Originally by: Emily Spankratchet A nice CCP employee posted in the Missions & Exploration forum a couple of months ago to make this clear. Originally by: GM Faolchu This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. This is how CCP want Eve to be. Until they change their minds, salvaging from under mission runners' noses is a perfectly valid profession. Petitioning will not help you. Also, try running missions in a system without 200 other sheep. I'm sorry but that CCP employee is trying, but cannot justify the fact they will not change it. "The players are salvaging what is effectivly floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage." Sorry but CCP has rocks in there heads to say that and think people won't think its fair and impartial. Wrecks are floating rubbish - but jetcans and the loot inside teh wrecks are too. Why does concord act on that? The crying thieves may also attempt to pull out the wrecks are trash card and are owned by no one. Wrong: that is not true until CCP makes it so that the loot inside wrecks are treated like the salvage, and anyone can put a tractor beam on any wreck. By putting a tractor beam on a yellow wreck, the game itself tells you that the wreck is not trash that belongs to nobody. If CCP changes the game in which jetcans, and wreck loot is treated the same as salvage, and you can tractor other players wrecks and cans, it is utter and complete crap. CCP contradictes their own justifcation against their refusal to change the mechanics. Will CCP make this motion? Please, by all means GO AHEAD - I will retract my argument FULLY if it is done. I am waiting CCP. shut up. you are trying to ruin my business.
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:14:00 - [25] Originally by: Fustor as evry wreck drop 4x armor plates or something like that ... you can create more then 20 mil per hour so in 2 days you can upgrade trail account.. Where do you mission because I want to go there. Seriously, I may only get like 5 armor plates in the most lucrative L4 missions that I get. Typically most of my money comes from the loot with the salvage only making up about 2-5 million of the total profits.
Had Enough	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:21:00 - [26] Edited by: Had Enough on 02/05/2008 16:24:55 Originally by: Fustor Sneak and salvage lv4 missions.. Cool isn't it? though some people actually leave all the wrecks and loot (Can you believe it?) and end the mission because they make more isk from the Bounties/LP/Rewards of non stop missions, or so I hear. We're doing a service cleaning up the clutter and keeping space tidy, it's ok we don't desire any thanks the loot and salvage is thanks enough.
Rramar Claime Amarr Ordo Quaesitoris	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:27:00 - [27] Edited by: Rramar Claime on 02/05/2008 16:30:48 Right. Those floating rubbish wrecks mean a lot of ISK to some people. I understand CCP's point in this but when someone probes you out and takes away the large wrecks from you... thats a huge loss. In a level 4 enemies abound without any bounties, you do the mission for the salvage which can reach 30 mills. I'd say a possible solution would be if only people in a wardeccable corp would be able to salvage others wrecks or salvage at all. A guy in a noob corp racing you for the large wrecks and then laughing when he was faster is no way what CCP intended... Another idea is if they wouldn't let others into deadspace complexes at all. Although that would take away too much fun i know, but then again just let people retaliate somehow if they want to salvage what they earned. Edit: It's totally ok if someone salvages the wrecks after I left the deadspace complex and finished the mission, I think everyone can agree that there's no problem with that at all. That is not the problem.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:29:00 - [28] I think it's time to pull out this old classic: L2P, kthxbai.
Rat XIII 5punkorp	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:33:00 - [29] Originally by: Rramar Claime A guy in a noob corp racing you for the large wrecks and then laughing when he was faster is no way what CCP intended... You put pretty incredible emphasis on something you have no evidence of. Though I do agree with you to some extent. I made my own corporation for salvaging before I joined the corp I'm in now.
Rramar Claime Amarr Ordo Quaesitoris	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:43:00 - [30] Originally by: Rat XIII Originally by: Rramar Claime A guy in a noob corp racing you for the large wrecks and then laughing when he was faster is no way what CCP intended... You put pretty incredible emphasis on something you have no evidence of. Though I do agree with you to some extent. I made my own corporation for salvaging before I joined the corp I'm in now. What do you mean no evidence? In this example i mentioned the guy waited what direction I accelerated and was going for exactly the same large wrecks i went for. Except my ship did 700 with mwd, his did about 2k :( He even warped out once to empty his cargo :D But anyway, the thing is not if you "believe" it happened or not. This kind of theft shouldn't be allowed to happen, it shouldn't be possible to do such salvaging i think. I mean if there would be a small window asking, do you let XYX salvage your wrecks for the next 15-30 minutes? yes-no. That would solve it all.
Had Enough	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:44:00 - [31] Originally by: Rramar Claime It's totally ok if someone salvages the wrecks after I left the deadspace complex and finished the mission Tell me, how does one do that?
Amastat Caldari Omegatech	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:44:00 - [32] Edited by: Amastat on 02/05/2008 16:48:43 Originally by: Rat XIII Originally by: Rramar Claime A guy in a noob corp racing you for the large wrecks and then laughing when he was faster is no way what CCP intended... You put pretty incredible emphasis on something you have no evidence of. Though I do agree with you to some extent. I made my own corporation for salvaging before I joined the corp I'm in now. It is 'overpowered' and 'unbalanced' that the thief is pretty much immune to the mission runner, there is virtually no risk to the thief that they will blow up and have a loss of their earnings and a deficit from a cheap frigate and probe loss. The thief is not flagged in any way, so the mission runner doesn't even have a choice to retaliate unless they want to sacrifice their ship. And what sane pilot is going to sacrifice a battleship to pop a frig for jacking salvage? This a very good greifing and harassing tool as well. it takes very little time to train a alt account, you can grief and harass a target group or just a solar system in general just to get a cheap laugh. If people know who you are and your a thief, you just make a new alt. Ever wonder why all the thieves are new chars in NPC corps? It is a matter of beating them to the wreck, that's one of the few things that can be done. That is kinda hard to do if your already in the middle of the pocket in a battleship doing a level 4 mission, so your only REAL thing to do against the thief is to blow up your wrecks before they get to them, that way they are left with nothing too, instead of them profiting off your salvage and you get none. Yea - thats what some people have to do, that's one of the very few things that can be done about it at all. I wonder if a CSM candidate will look into the mission runner vote, a CSM candidate will for sure get a ton of votes if they pledge to go to CCP and bring this all up. I wouldn't be surprised if a survey showed the majority of the mission running playerbase thinks the current salvage system is best described as unbalanced and favoritist.
Had Enough	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:48:00 - [33] What are wrecks? When a ship is destroyed, whether it is a player ship or an NPC ship, it leaves a wreck. The modules and items from the cargohold that are not destroyed in the ship's explosion, can be looted. In addition to this, raw materials can be extracted from the wreck by using salvaging. The materials salvaged can be sold on the market or used to create rigs. Please note that anyone can salvage usable materials from wrecks, regardless of who destroyed the ship which caused the wreck to be created. Concord does not regard it as a criminal offense for anyone with the expertise required to extract usable materials from space debris to put their skills to use. However, the standard criminal flagging rules apply to items within the wreck. Should you have destroyed a pirate and should someone other than you salvage the wreck, the items within the wreck will be placed into a container belonging to you located next to where the wreck previously resided.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:50:00 - [34] Pshaw, I wish I had your problems... You should thank the guys salvaging your missions for cleaning up your mess. Heck, I usually invite people to not only salvage, but also loot my missions if they want to... but nobody ever comes (except newer corpmates, that is). If you care so much about salvage "thieves" (which by the way are NOT thieves... would they get the loot too, then they'd be thieves, and you could shoot them), then: * stop using drones so you're slightly harder to scan * GTFOO Motsu/Saila/Laah/Aramachi or whatever mission-running hellhole hub you're in * get somebody you know and trust to loot/salvage before the "thieves" can do it * loot and salvage as you go though the mission (marauders would be ideal for this) If you can't be bother to do any of the above... tough luck. You know, IF salvaging was an agression-flagging act, most of you muppets would actually FIRE at the "salvage thief", then he'd come back in a combat ship and wipe the floor with you... then you'll be whining EVEN MORE about it.
Amastat Caldari Omegatech	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:51:00 - [35] Edited by: Amastat on 02/05/2008 16:52:18 Edited by: Amastat on 02/05/2008 16:51:56 Originally by: Had Enough What are wrecks? When a ship is destroyed, whether it is a player ship or an NPC ship, it leaves a wreck. The modules and items from the cargohold that are not destroyed in the ship's explosion, can be looted. In addition to this, raw materials can be extracted from the wreck by using salvaging. The materials salvaged can be sold on the market or used to create rigs. Please note that anyone can salvage usable materials from wrecks, regardless of who destroyed the ship which caused the wreck to be created. Concord does not regard it as a criminal offense for anyone with the expertise required to extract usable materials from space debris to put their skills to use. However, the standard criminal flagging rules apply to items within the wreck. Should you have destroyed a pirate and should someone other than you salvage the wreck, the items within the wreck will be placed into a container belonging to you located next to where the wreck previously resided. Flawed: CCP and the thieves can pull out a dictionary, I can too: Dictionary.com Salvage -noun 1. the act of saving a ship or its cargo from perils of the seas. 2. the property so saved. 3. compensation given to those who voluntarily save a ship or its cargo. 4. the act of saving anything from fire, danger, etc. 5. the property saved from danger. 6. the value or proceeds upon sale of goods recovered from a fire. ûverb (used with object) 7. to save from shipwreck, fire, etc. Sifting through a wreck for raw materials is salvage, but sifiting through a wreck for loot [equipment, modules, etc.]... hmm... theres a word for that. DAMN - can't put my finger on it
ZzZGilletteZzZ Caldari ZzZDefZzZ	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:54:00 - [36] Salvage theft is awesome because it provides an extra layer of criminal gameplay which adds variety to the sandbox, its very similar to the scrap metal theft problem in the UK where people are even risking life and limb by stealing copper from substations and high voltage industrial cables.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:55:00 - [37] Originally by: Amastat definition of salvage And, in real-life, by maritime law, WHOEVER GOT TO THE SHIPWRECK FIRST AND SALVAGED IT gets the salvage rights. Hey, what do you know, by that account, somebody else looting a wreck you left behind should also be A-OK, not just scavenging the hull for components.
Rat XIII 5punkorp	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:56:00 - [38] Originally by: Rramar Claime What do you mean no evidence? Actually I was talking about the THIS ISNT WHAT CCP WANTED OH GOD part. It's stupid to say what CCP do or do not want when you're not CCP. I don't doubt that people get to your salvage quicker than you do - they're in ships designed to do that, after all.
Rat XIII 5punkorp	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:57:00 - [39] Originally by: Amastat Sifting through a wreck for raw materials is salvage, but sifiting through a wreck for loot [equipment, modules, etc.]... hmm... theres a word for that. So what you're saying is we should be able to freely loot wrecks too?
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:58:00 - [40] ITT: People who think RL has anything to do with Eve and not realizing that the definition of the term 'fair' in Eves context is wholy dependant on what the devs want it to be. The devs want Eve to be a dark harsh Darwinian niche game for the intelligent overly aggressive members of the worlds population. They have succeded. Btw part of the beauty of this world is to allow anyone to play so we can have lots of bleatly cows to tip over to hear them mooooo.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:59:00 - [41] Originally by: Rramar Claime This kind of theft shouldn't be allowed to happen, it shouldn't be possible to do such salvaging i think. Why? Quote: I mean if there would be a small window asking, do you let XYX salvage your wrecks for the next 15-30 minutes? yes-no. That would solve it all. Or you could leave it the way it is now – that would also solve the "problem."
Rramar Claime Amarr Ordo Quaesitoris	Posted - 2008.05.02 17:00:00 - [42] Originally by: Had Enough Originally by: Rramar Claime It's totally ok if someone salvages the wrecks after I left the deadspace complex and finished the mission Tell me, how does one do that? You must have posted this when i posted my reply so for example with that little window asking if you allow salvaging. In most of the missions I just leave the wreck too without bookmarks, and there's no reason for me not to allow someone to salvage it but.... I already told you the rest.
Alora Venoda GalTech Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2008.05.02 17:01:00 - [43] Originally by: Rramar Claime Edited by: Rramar Claime on 02/05/2008 16:30:48 Right. Those floating rubbish wrecks mean a lot of ISK to some people. I understand CCP's point in this but when someone probes you out and takes away the large wrecks from you... thats a huge loss. In a level 4 enemies abound without any bounties, you do the mission for the salvage which can reach 30 mills. I'd say a possible solution would be if only people in a wardeccable corp would be able to salvage others wrecks or salvage at all. A guy in a noob corp racing you for the large wrecks and then laughing when he was faster is no way what CCP intended... Another idea is if they wouldn't let others into deadspace complexes at all. Although that would take away too much fun i know, but then again just let people retaliate somehow if they want to salvage what they earned. Edit: It's totally ok if someone salvages the wrecks after I left the deadspace complex and finished the mission, I think everyone can agree that there's no problem with that at all. That is not the problem. well i think the main argument for salvage being public and only the loot being private is that not everyone takes the time to salvage every mission. heck many times they don't loot either. take your salvage ship and run around between belts in a popular ratting or mining system and you will see many wrecks that nobody bothers to collect. this idea of course conflicts with professional mission runners who fully loot and salvage every wreck. this delima was first noted back when salvage was first introduced, and you could only salvage empty wrecks. at that time players saw many abandoned wrecks full of loot and cried because they couldn't salvage them without getting flagged. but now, due to "salvage thieves" the argument is from the other side. what solution will fit both scenarios? can anyone think of one? here's a few i came up with... 1. a time delay from when wreck was created during which the "owner" will have exclusive rights to the salvage. it would need to be shorter than the time before the wreck expires, but long enough to allow scavengers to salvage it. this would get complicated for those mission runners who end up salvaging most of their wrecks within last 10 minutes before the wrecks expire. 2. same as now, except when a wreck would normally expire, the ownership is released and any loot inside is lost. but the wreck itself remains and can be tractored and salvaged by anyone. this would be ideal, except for possible lag issues... 3. once you leave the system the wrecks are no longer "owned". similar to #1, many potential problems as well. does not really account for ratters or miners who stay in same system and never loot/salvage the wrecks. 4. some kind of "flag" you set that releases/claims ownership of your wrecks. this is very interesting, but players would have to choose to do it. and since it would basically just be a courtesy for others, not many people would bother unless asked.
Nitemare111 Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.05.02 17:03:00 - [44] Originally by: Amastat Edited by: Amastat on 02/05/2008 16:52:18 Edited by: Amastat on 02/05/2008 16:51:56 Flawed: CCP and the thieves can pull out a dictionary, I can too: Dictionary.com Salvage -noun 1. the act of saving a ship or its cargo from perils of the seas. 2. the property so saved. 3. compensation given to those who voluntarily save a ship or its cargo. 4. the act of saving anything from fire, danger, etc. 5. the property saved from danger. 6. the value or proceeds upon sale of goods recovered from a fire. ûverb (used with object) 7. to save from shipwreck, fire, etc. Sifting through a wreck for raw materials is salvage, but sifiting through a wreck for loot [equipment, modules, etc.]... hmm... theres a word for that. DAMN - can't put my finger on it You are incorrect. Nos. 2, 4, and 5 contradict the self serving lies you're using to try to get your point across. Got news for you: in the real world salvage is anything left in a wreck. Eve just splits it up to add a dynamic. Look, if you suck so much that you can't handle your own salvaging, that's your problem. I have no problem doing my missions, returning to station, and coming back with my salvage destroyer. So, what are you doing wrong? Mission hubbing? **** off someone with your self righteous whining? Just plain stupid? eBay character? Isk buyer? Get it together. If Eve is too hard, go away, or toughen up.
Amastat Caldari Omegatech	Posted - 2008.05.02 17:05:00 - [45] If 'realism' was brought into this debate... In a more realistic situation, such as a being on a ship at sea, EVERYTHING - wither it be the metal that the boat is made of, or the cargo and on-board equipment - taking it from the ruined ship is called SALVAGE. Not just the raw materials of the ship, EVERYTHING. If there is a regional no-piracy law about going around and looking for newly wrecked ships and looting/salvaging them when you or your group has no license to them, in real life, the coast guard (concord) would pull you over asking for a ticket, wither you were picking up metal scrap from the ship, or cargo. If this occurred in lawless regions of the sea where there is no sign of any other boats, it doesn't matter, do whatever the hell you want, there is no coastguard to do anything about it. In real life you can latch a towing cable on anything you want (tractor beam). It's just a matter if its legal or not to tow someone else's boat, and if you get caught. OK - bottom line is, in real life - the raw materials of a ship and the cargo are both considered 'salvage' items of a wrecked boat. It is not like this in EVE Online. There is a reason why CCP Has salvage this way, but why? :P cough excessive pirate whines Ever since Red Moon Rising there has been a heavy decline in carebears to pirate in low sec - I think its more than a cooindence that during Revelations CCP introduces salvage and chooses to make the mechanics what they are now. I think they knew all to well that there would be dispute over it. They had this EXACT debate before in the past with the ore thieves vs. miners dispute, and eventually introduced the red flag to balance it out between the two players. This is the same issue, but CCP has chosen to not change it, and they will keep it this way. I think they knew a lot of argument would arise, and I think they made salvage mechanics what they are as some form of a response towards the whiner-pirate community. That is the only explanation I can really think of, I cannot understand why CCP would allow such a stupid and unbalanced mechanic for any reason other then that. They must of weighted the longevity and customer satisfaction over the concept of balance.
Rramar Claime Amarr Ordo Quaesitoris	Posted - 2008.05.02 17:06:00 - [46] Originally by: Rat XIII Originally by: Rramar Claime What do you mean no evidence? Actually I was talking about the THIS ISNT WHAT CCP WANTED OH GOD part. It's stupid to say what CCP do or do not want when you're not CCP. I don't doubt that people get to your salvage quicker than you do - they're in ships designed to do that, after all. You're right, maybe I'm just to naive. It is against my logic to allow something like that and I still think it ruins more than fun it brings. Originally by: Tippia Why? Again it must be my stupid logic, otherwise I explained it already. Originally by: Tippia Or you could leave it the way it is now û that would also solve the "problem." Eeeh. Right. You didn't really get what I meant it seems :(
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.02 17:08:00 - [47] Originally by: Amastat They had this EXACT debate before in the past with the ore thieves vs. miners dispute, and eventually introduced the red flag to balance it out between the two players. NEWSFLASH : that made the situation worse for the miners... not better. You know, the ones unfortunate/careless/stupid enough to actually shoot at the ore-stealer ?
Gypsio III Bambooule	Posted - 2008.05.02 17:16:00 - [48] Attn Whining Carebears! Your solution is at hand! Run missions in lowsec! No lag! Better mission rewards! Very few salvagers, and now you can shoot them yourself!
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.05.02 17:19:00 - [49] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Amastat They had this EXACT debate before in the past with the ore thieves vs. miners dispute, and eventually introduced the red flag to balance it out between the two players. NEWSFLASH : that made the situation worse for the miners... not better. You know, the ones unfortunate/careless/stupid enough to actually shoot at the ore-stealer ? Actually, the flag from stealing someone's ore is corp-wide so the thief is vulnerable to the miner's corpmates too. It's the player's own fault if he doesn't bring protection.
Nitemare111 Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.05.02 17:20:00 - [50] Edited by: Nitemare111 on 02/05/2008 17:20:27 Amastat, frankly I couldn't care what the lowsec losers want. Most pirates are only interested in ganking someone to add to their epeens. Of course, most cry like a baby if you blow up their ship and threaten revenge. As for the old orethieves/miners argument, the only reason flagging was brought in was the lazy miners. "Hey, I'll go ahead and put all my valuable ore into this big, unsecured box sitting out in the open!" Lazy morons. Lootcans: Hey, that belongs to you. Game dynamic. Salvage: That belongs to whoever is willing to skill up and buy the proper equipment. Game dynamic. And, bu the way, it's not unbalanced. Wrecks get made, wrecks get cleaned up. Doesn't matter by whom. If you're losing "your" wrecks, then you're doing something wrong. Find the problem and work around it. Go to another agent away from the hub. Slap a tractor and a salvager on your mission ship. Something. Don't try to get the game changed because you're too lazy to work around it. (edit) ps...this is not meant as a personal flame, just tired of whiney people wanting the game changed so they get to be uber with no or little work, so I tend to flame first, think later. Example: Star Wars Galaxies, Jedi. Killed what could have been the biggest mmorpg. Don't want that happening to Eve.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.02 17:24:00 - [51] Originally by: Nyphur Actually, the flag from stealing someone's ore is corp-wide so the thief is vulnerable to the miner's corpmates too. It's the player's own fault if he doesn't bring protection. And we all know just how sociable the solo-mission runners are, always running along in great packs so that... oh, wait
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.02 17:25:00 - [52] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Amastat They had this EXACT debate before in the past with the ore thieves vs. miners dispute, and eventually introduced the red flag to balance it out between the two players. NEWSFLASH : that made the situation worse for the miners... not better. You know, the ones unfortunate/careless/stupid enough to actually shoot at the ore-stealer ? Actually, the flag from stealing someone's ore is corp-wide so the thief is vulnerable to the miner's corpmates too. It's the player's own fault if he doesn't bring protection. Indeed. I think that alot of these whines are from solo players. Eve game mechanics are balanced for groups of 2 to 6 players though you can certainly play the game with just yourself. However playing alone gets you all the drawbacks like less efficiency and not having any backup. Think of no kill rights on salvage as CCPs way of encouraging team play for those who are not team players.
Rramar Claime Amarr Ordo Quaesitoris	Posted - 2008.05.02 17:26:00 - [53] Originally by: Nitemare111 Example: Star Wars Galaxies, Jedi. Killed what could have been the biggest mmorpg. Don't want that happening to Eve. It's funny, I always say the same and that is exactly what comes to my mind every time I see CCP doesn't really listen to customers but keeps pushing marketing to get more money out of the game. Although we don't seem to be on the same page, in my memories SOE lost almost everyone because they kept going against customer wishes, just as they later admitted the whole thing and apologized. Pity it was too late :(
Nitemare111 Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.05.02 17:41:00 - [54] Edited by: Nitemare111 on 02/05/2008 17:43:35 Originally by: Rramar Claime Originally by: Nitemare111 Example: Star Wars Galaxies, Jedi. Killed what could have been the biggest mmorpg. Don't want that happening to Eve. It's funny, I always say the same and that is exactly what comes to my mind every time I see CCP doesn't really listen to customers but keeps pushing marketing to get more money out of the game. Although we don't seem to be on the same page, in my memories SOE lost almost everyone because they kept going against customer wishes, just as they later admitted the whole thing and apologized. Pity it was too late :( True, you do have a point. Problem is that SWG was aimed at solo players and small groups, with some PvP thrown in, and lots of imbalanced classes. Eve doesn't have classes, and PvP is at the core of the game. Solo play is possible, but it's aimed at group/corp/alliance play. CCP has had this in mind since day one, SWG was screwed from beta2, when they kept dropping what they players enjoyed. SOE wanted massive playerbase, so they kept nerfing the game downward. CCP wants the game to fit within their universe. If players like it, great. If players want traditional mmorpgs, they have other options, and CCP isn't going to change their entire game to make it Everquest In Space. Some people can't handle this for some reason. They can't deal with a game that doesn't cater to the lowest common denominator, and they fill the forum with whines. "OMG, I went in to lowsec and got shot up! Nerf pirates!" "OMG, I went through highsec AFK for 30 jumps in a freighter full of faction gear, and got slaughtered! Nerf suicide ganking!" "OMG, I left my miner running AFK, and got killed by belt rats! Nerf rats!" "OMG! I got undersold on the market! Nerf people with a better feel for market dynamics!" Bah. No wonder some people have started ganking out of sheer anger. (edit) typos
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.05.02 17:42:00 - [55] Originally by: Rramar Claime Originally by: Nitemare111 Example: Star Wars Galaxies, Jedi. Killed what could have been the biggest mmorpg. Don't want that happening to Eve. It's funny, I always say the same and that is exactly what comes to my mind every time I see CCP doesn't really listen to customers but keeps pushing marketing to get more money out of the game. Although we don't seem to be on the same page, in my memories SOE lost almost everyone because they kept going against customer wishes, just as they later admitted the whole thing and apologized. Pity it was too late :( Problem with your comparison is that CCP is actually following player wishes with allowing salvaging without flagging. Of course some other customers disagree but so far the the numbers are even...
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.02 17:48:00 - [56] Originally by: Abrazzar Of course some other customers disagree but so far the the numbers are even... I think the thousands of daily mission runners who don't complain on the forum slightly outnumber the odd whiner or two who got his salvage ganked and was arsed enough to come poast about it. I would imagine that to 99% of the mission runners this is a non-issue otherwise why don't we have threadnaughts of epic preportions about it?
Rramar Claime Amarr Ordo Quaesitoris	Posted - 2008.05.02 17:59:00 - [57] Originally by: Abrazzar Problem with your comparison is that CCP is actually following player wishes with allowing salvaging without flagging. Of course some other customers disagree but so far the the numbers are even... I don't know how you are so sure about the numbers being even, but that doesn't even matter. Fortunately if i keep thinking about SWG, this whole topic ain't that big a problem, and the game in general is the best i've ever played and we can be happy until we're fighting about a small thing like this. So ok, let everyone salvage everything. But then please if I convo the guy not to do so or he smacks just to **** me off, let me retaliate with at least a wardec so I can kick his smartside next time he warps in. Don't let these guys do that in a noob corp, don't let them take away my money without having any chance to stop it. No carebear stuff, no hisec hugger, no whining, or any personal disrespects, just simple logic: It means ISK to me, I destroyed the ship, let me decide if I need it or not. If i don't, go ahead and take it, if I do and you continue to salvage, face the consequences a day later. Pretty simple and keeps everyone happy.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.02 18:24:00 - [58] Edited by: Tippia on 02/05/2008 18:25:59 Originally by: Rramar Claime So ok, let everyone salvage everything. But then please if I convo the guy not to do so or he smacks just to ** me off, let me retaliate with at least a wardec so I can kick his smartside next time he warps in. Don't let these guys do that in a noob corp, don't let them take away my money without having any chance to stop it. Again – why? You were too slow. That means it's not your wreck, nor is it your salvage… Quote:** It means ISK to me, I destroyed the ship, let me decide if I need it or not. Yes, you destroyed the wreck and that means you already got the rewards for it. While salvaging it would mean more ISK to you, you don't own the salvage, which means that this ISK isn't yours yet either.
Annaphera Minmatar The Green Machine	Posted - 2008.05.02 19:20:00 - [59] Personally, I think that people who stay in NPC corps should be FORBIDDEN from performing any action that causes standing loss with any corp/faction that isn't a) an NPC pirate corp, or b) opposed faction (ie, Minmatar if you're in the Amarr newb corp). They should also be forbidden any action that would cause a flag, with the same exceptions. As for salvage - follow the high seas rule; CCP has already made it favor the person who made the wreck by making the loot flag you, there's no need to go any further just because it's of value to YOU. If they were to change things so that taking anything of value that you've worked for is impossible, then the game would be unplayable...or indistinguishable from "WoW in Space".
Kis Kecheri	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:12:00 - [60] This activity seems to be out of line of the CCP risk vs reward agenda. The Ninja Salvager is spending far less investment and risk to obtain similar if not equal or better returns then the LvL4 mission runner. The LvL4 mission runner needs: 1. - Train for and obtain a LvL4 mission capable ship 2. - Obtain standing required to run LvL4 missions 3. - Expose ship to LvL4 missions, suicide ganking, wardecs, etc The Ninja Salvager needs: 1. - Train for and obtain a salvage capable ship 2. - Train for and use probing skills to find LvL4 mission runners This seems like a massive gap between the risk/reward ratio. This is especially true on a trial account that is in a NPC corp to block wardecs.
Grarr Dexx Amarr Naval Protection Corp Carpe Universitas	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:34:00 - [61] boohoo doing bad things are easier than doing good things
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:45:00 - [62] Edited by: Tippia on 02/05/2008 20:46:07 Originally by: Kis Kecheri The LvL4 mission runner needs: 1. - Train for and obtain a LvL4 mission capable ship 2. - Obtain standing required to run LvL4 missions 3. - Expose ship to LvL4 missions, suicide ganking, wardecs, etc The Ninja Salvager needs: 1. - Train for and obtain a salvage capable ship 2. - Train for and use probing skills to find LvL4 mission runners The mission runner also gets: 1. - Guaranteed, set returns in the form of ISK (bounties + mission rewards). 2. - Guaranteed, set returns in the form of security rating. 3. - Guaranteed, set returns in the form of corp/faction standing. 4. - Potential random returns in the form of loot (first on scene + ownership). 5. - Potential random returns in the form of salvage (first on scene). Compare this to what the salvager gets: 1. - Potential random returns in the form of salvage (leftovers).
Kis Kecheri	Posted - 2008.05.02 21:07:00 - [63] Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 02/05/2008 21:09:51 Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 02/05/2008 20:46:07 Originally by: Kis Kecheri The LvL4 mission runner needs: 1. - Train for and obtain a LvL4 mission capable ship 2. - Obtain standing required to run LvL4 missions 3. - Expose ship to LvL4 missions, suicide ganking, wardecs, etc The Ninja Salvager needs: 1. - Train for and obtain a salvage capable ship 2. - Train for and use probing skills to find LvL4 mission runners The mission runner also gets: 1. - Guaranteed, set returns in the form of ISK (bounties + mission rewards). 2. - Guaranteed, set returns in the form of security rating. 3. - Guaranteed, set returns in the form of corp/faction standing. 4. - Potential random returns in the form of loot (first on scene + ownership). 5. - Potential random returns in the form of salvage (first on scene). Compare this to what the salvager gets: 1. - Potential random returns in the form of salvage (leftovers). None of those points seem to indicate that the Ninja Salvager is making the appropriate level of isk for the risk. Compared to the LvL4 mission runner he is making a huge return on their investment. In addition, counter-points 1-3 don't factor in the actual risk, time and effort of getting to the point of being able to do the LvL4s, let alone the addition potential to being suicide ganked. That capital is not guaranteed and paid in advance when accepting the mission. The runner must put forth the effort to not only acquire the standing to be able to run the mission but expose their ship to complete the mission as well as create the wrecks. As it stands now it seems that Ninja Salvaging is potentially far to profitable for its risk and effort.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.02 21:15:00 - [64] Originally by: Kis Kecheri None of those points seem to indicate that the Ninja Salvager is making far to much isk for too little risk compared to the LvL4 mission run. It's "Risk vs. Reward" not "Risk vs. ISK". There are plenty of rewards that the salvager won't get. Quote: Counter-points 1-3 don't factor in the actual risk, time and effort of getting to the point of being able to do the LvL4s, let alone the addition potential to being suicide ganked. Time and effort, maybe. The risk is negligible. Missions, by their very nature, are risk-free and the risk from "suicide ganking, war decs, etc" is the same for both players. Risk may not be factored in in points 1-3, but that's because it is zero.
Kis Kecheri	Posted - 2008.05.02 21:26:00 - [65] Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 02/05/2008 21:33:27 Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 02/05/2008 21:27:25 Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 02/05/2008 21:17:59 Originally by: Kis Kecheri None of those points seem to indicate that the Ninja Salvager is making far to much isk for too little risk compared to the LvL4 mission run. It's "Risk vs. Reward" not "Risk vs. ISK". There are plenty of rewards that the salvager won't get - he only gets the hope of high-priced salvage. Quote: Counter-points 1-3 don't factor in the actual risk, time and effort of getting to the point of being able to do the LvL4s, let alone the addition potential to being suicide ganked. Time and effort, maybe. The risk is negligible. Missions, by their very nature, are risk-free and the risk from "suicide ganking, war decs, etc" is the same for both players. Risk may not be factored in in points 1-3, but that's because it is zero. Feel free to interchange my use of isk with reward in my previous post. The point remains. The risk is not negligible for for both players unless you are saying that you can be exposed to a wardec in an npc corp or that losing a LvL4 mission capable Battleship is the same as losing a salvaging boat? Also, it doesn't matter if there are potential rewards the ninja salvager won't get. If they are getting to much reward through ninja salvaging alone for the amount of investment/risk then there is a problem as it conflicts with CCP philosophy. If a trial account is able to pay for its own activation through this method alone that might be an indicator of a bigger flaw.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.02 21:37:00 - [66] Edited by: Tippia on 02/05/2008 21:38:24 Originally by: Kis Kecheri Feel free to interchange my use of isk with reward in my previous post. The point remains. It does? Even though the missioner is guaranteed rewards – many of which are non-perishable – and the salvager isn't? Quote: The risk is not negligible for not the same for both players unless you are saying that you can be exposed to a wardec in an npc corp or that losing a LvL4 mission capable Battleship to a suicide ganker is the same as losing a salvaging boat? It's the same. Nothing forces the missioner to be in a PC corp, so he can be just as safe as the salvager; likewise, nothing says that the salvager is in an NPC corp, so he can be just war-deccable as the missioner. Quote: If they are getting to much reward through ninja salvaging alone for the amount of investment/risk then there is a problem as it conflicts with CCP philosophy. A big "if" – this point remains to be proven. Quote: If a trial account is able to pay for its own activation through this method alone that might be an indicator of a bigger flaw. How so, and what bigger flaw would that be? It rather seems to suggest that the game isn't quite as hard on the upstart as is often claimed. I would classify that as an advantage, not a flaw.
Lindsay Fox Disciples of Comus	Posted - 2008.05.02 21:44:00 - [67] some semi-random thoughts on the subject: begin able to play for free if you work at it is one of the defining features of the eve universe. one of the reasons the salvage mechanic is like this is to try and lower rig prices by making salvage easier to get; not so long ago people didn't bother salvaging much and rig prices were high while the raw materials just sat in space until the wreck despawned. mission runners should know by the time they get to lvl 4s that the majority of loot & salvage is not cost effective to scoop; you make more money and grind standings faster by ignoring wrecks and spending the time doing the next mission instead. on top of that I have zero sympathy for people who run missions in overcrowded crappy mission hubs just because the agent there is a 19 instead of using a 17 in a quieter system. i just don't get these threads.
ceyriot Induseng Enterprises R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.02 21:56:00 - [68] Originally by: Fustor ... you can create more then 20 mil per hour so in 2 days you can upgrade trail account.. I will also post pettion bcz lot of ppl doing that and only way to keep your salvage is to be in dominix with salvagers ,marauder or play with friend. Well, this isn't playing EvE for free. People are still paying money for your subscription, just not you. Which is like saying. "Bcuz mai frend iz payn subsciptun 4 meh, itz fre!", which is obviously not true. And to keep your salvage, there is such a thing as friends...oh wait...you must not have any... Try and get one, with a BC, 3 salvage rigs, full cargo expanders and of course 4 salvagers/4 tractors...you get 2.5k cargo space, lots of salvage, and nobody can take wrecks.
Kis Kecheri	Posted - 2008.05.02 22:07:00 - [69] Quote: t does? Even though the missioner is guaranteed rewards û many of which are non-perishable û and the salvager isn't? Nothing is guaranteed. You have to actually go out and accomplish the mission. Kill the ships. Rescue the Damsel. Any number of things can happen to the runner in which his risk is much greater then the Ninja Salvager sitting in an npc corp probing. At most, the Ninja Salvager loses a far cheaper ship. Quote: It's the same. Nothing forces the missioner to be in a PC corp, so he can be just as safe as the salvager; likewise, nothing says that the salvager is in an NPC corp, so he can be just war-deccable as the missioner. My original post was directed at the OP point in which a few day old Ninja Salvager sitting in a NPC corp exposes themself to absolute minimal risk compared to the average LvL4 player who is not in a NPC corp. Your response also side-steps the point that losing a salvage boat is compariable to losing a LvL4 mission capable ship, regardless of wether either can be exposed to a wardec. Quote: A big "if" û this point remains to be proven. If the OP is correct then point has been made. Quote: How so, and what bigger flaw would that be? It rather seems to suggest that the game isn't quite as hard on the upstart as is often claimed. I would classify that as an advantage, not a flaw. There are obvious limitations placed on trial accounts manage their growth. A trial being able to obtain a self sufficient income to purchase its own extention alone seems question that limit. I don't know of any other method a trial account would be able to do that without some outside help. This is really up to CCP to examine and determine if that is the case. If they deem it an unbalanced method then we might see Salvaging taken off the list of trainable skills for trials or the mechanic itself altered.
Slade Trillgon Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2008.05.02 22:08:00 - [70] Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 02/05/2008 22:08:45 I say look at it this way. Someone runs a mission and they do not have the skills to salvage, do not have an alt that salvages, and does not ask a corp member to salvage for them. They can loot the wreck and then they leave this rusting hulk of space metal there till it is either chomped down by downtime or till someone with the skills comes along to salvage it. The fact that you do not like the concept of it being trash is irrelevant. Wrecks are trash and if left unattended they are left for the curteous pod pilot to come along and clean them up. EDIT: If you want to argue that it is your property and that it is not trash then protect the wrecks like you would any of your other assets. Slade * This is my opinion and not one of my corp or alliance.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.02 22:26:00 - [71] Originally by: Kis Kecheri Nothing is guaranteed. Far more is guaranteed for the missioner than for the salvager. The missioner's rewards are set, and he has ample time to claim them. The salvager's rewards are based on being in the right place at the right time, and being lucky enough to get something that's actually valuable. Quote: My original post was directed at the OP point in which a few day old Ninja Salvager sitting in a NPC corp exposes themself to absolute minimal risk compared to the average LvL4 player who is not in a NPC corp. Fair enough, but that's specific to his situation, not the supposed problem at large. Quote: Your response also side-steps the point that losing a salvage boat is compariable to losing a LvL4 mission capable ship, regardless of wether either can be exposed to a wardec. For the afore-mentioned newbie, that salvage ship and the mods on it, represent an immense amount of money. Quote: If the OP is correct then point has been made. No, it only shows that the rewards are too high for his liking – not that the ninja salvagers are getting "too much". Without a good definition of how much "too much" is, nothing is proven. Quote: There are obvious limitations placed on trial accounts manage their ability/influence growth. A trial being able to obtain a self sufficient income to purchase its own extention alone seems question that limit. I don't know of any other method a trial account would be able to do that without some outside help. The limitations are there to ensure that you get a full subscription – this does in no way circumvent those limitation. In fact, the whole point of this exercise is to get that subscription, thereby fulfilling and validating the essential reason for having them.
Kis Kecheri	Posted - 2008.05.02 22:45:00 - [72] Quote: Far more is guaranteed for the missioner than for the salvager. The missioner's rewards are set, and he has ample time to claim them. The salvager's rewards are based on being in the right place at the right time, and being lucky enough to get something that's actually valuable. àand the success of the salvager still hinges on the assumption that the mission runner doesn't claim ownership over the salvage by salvaging as he goes. Effectively, the mechanism asked for (allowing/denying others to salvage "your" wrecks) is already in place. All that is a side-step to the actual point of wether the ninja salvager is still being rewarded to much for the level of risk they take. It doesn't matter how many caveats you throw into the equatio. If you are getting to much out for to little in in conflict with CCP philosophy then something is wrong. Quote: For the afore-mentioned newbie, that salvage ship and the mods on it, represent an immense amount of money. It might be a siziable portion of their assests but that again side-steps the point of too much reward for the risk. If the salvage ship explodes and the LvL4 runner explodes randomly and their assests are suspended, but then get compensated an average sum of what each would make for one mission/ninja salvage expedition, which one would be able to recover their ship first? This is even beside the additional risk the LvL4 runner might have with suicide-gankers. Quote: No, it only shows that the rewards are too high for his liking û not that the ninja salvagers are getting "too much". Without a good definition of how much "too much" is, nothing is proven. "Too much" to put it midly would be what CCP determines is acceptable reward for the risk that individual takes. They have modified the game many times to tune this and I assume they have a more quantitative method to analyze it. Quote: The limitations are there to ensure that you get a full subscription û this does in no way circumvent those limitation. In fact, the whole point of this exercise is to get that subscription, thereby fulfilling and validating the essential reason for having the limitations to begin with. I'm sorry, that sounded like circular logic or is too ambigious for me to clearly reply to.
Had Enough	Posted - 2008.05.02 22:47:00 - [73] A few points to make. 1. Probing mission runners is not easy, it is very time consuming and hard work and the scan probes can be costly. It's not like a trial account can afford a Sisters Scan Probe Launcher. And as far as I know scanning down missions with no one in them isn't possible, correct me if I'm wrong anyone? 2. These claims of a trial account being able to pay for a GTC with their salvaging, well this remains to be seen. I'm not a trial but I'll let you know if I can afford a GTC from my salvaging, no where near there yet. 3. Is this happening all the time to the same mission runners? Ask mission runners if this is a common thing. I would guess they can do alot of missions and never see it then one day a ninja comes in salvages one of their missions and the first place some of them come is to the forum to moan about it.
Billy Sastard Amarr Life. Universe. Everything. Wrath.	Posted - 2008.05.02 22:53:00 - [74] Originally by: Fustor all skill's someone need to play eve for free are.. 1.Engineering lv2 2.Electronics Lv2 3.Electronic upgrades lv1 4.Science lv3 5.Astrometrics lv4 6.Survey lv3 7.Mechanic lv3 8 Salvaging lv3 I think it is awesome that CCP has provided a means for people who are not in a financial situation to pay real money for the game to get up and running via ISK/GTC trade. IMO this is not a bad thing at all and should be applauded, not derided. BTW, salvage has no ownership, this is something intended by CCP and from what I have seen from CCP statements on the topic, they do not have any desire to change it. If you do not like people salvaging your wrecks, then get better at taking care of them before the scavengers get to you. This IS a multiplayer game afterall, you could, you know, get a freind or someone to come in and salvage the wrecks as you go? Or if you are a greedy bum, make an alt and salvage them yourself.
Jashan T'Okara	Posted - 2008.05.02 22:56:00 - [75] Originally by: Had Enough 2. These claims of a trial account being able to pay for a GTC with their salvaging, well this remains to be seen. I'm not a trial but I'll let you know if I can afford a GTC from my salvaging, no where near there yet. You know what, I am going to try this out. While in theory and on paper it works, I too want to know if it really IS viable. So as soon as I get home from work I am going to start up a new trial account and see if, in 2 weeks, I can activate with the mad isk I am making from salvaging scanned out mission runners in Motsu.
Kis Kecheri	Posted - 2008.05.02 22:59:00 - [76] Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 02/05/2008 23:04:35 Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 02/05/2008 23:00:24 Originally by: Jashan T'Okara Originally by: Had Enough 2. These claims of a trial account being able to pay for a GTC with their salvaging, well this remains to be seen. I'm not a trial but I'll let you know if I can afford a GTC from my salvaging, no where near there yet. You know what, I am going to try this out. While in theory and on paper it works, I too want to know if it really IS viable. So as soon as I get home from work I am going to start up a new trial account and see if, in 2 weeks, I can activate with the mad isk I am making from salvaging scanned out mission runners in Motsu. If it is valid then it would be a self-limiting process. There are only so many excellent LvL4 mission agents and runners. If this gets a bit to popular you will have mission more runners pro-actively salvaging on an alt accounts or with friends. You might even run into other Ninja Salvagers and have competition for the best wrecks other then the runner.
Xeronn Amarr Ordo Drakonis Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.02 23:00:00 - [77] What I love about EvE is that there are ways to acomplish things other then the GRIND specific to other MMO`s . What I don`t understand is the silli petty envy the OP shows in his post . So what`s wrong with a noob making a LOT of money really FAST? Great , I want those kind of people in my game , what i don`t want is more dumb grinders that can`t do anything without clear directions from a NPC agent and a clear path ahead of them Risk vs Reward DOES NOT equal Investment vs Reward imho . Eve is great because it doesnt reward grind in the way other MMO`s reward it . You cant powerlevel and there are other ways to live except "farming mobs" all day long . And again, I really dont see why WoW`ers play EvE and try to change it to be space-trolls-online ....really, no insults , if you can`t play a game based on player interactions there are plenty grinders out there
Kis Kecheri	Posted - 2008.05.02 23:03:00 - [78] Originally by: Xeronn Risk vs Reward DOES NOT equal Investment vs Reward imho . Investment is roughly equivalent to risk. In this context it is opportunity cost involved with training and obtaining the skills and ship/mods/standing to do the LvL4 Missions.
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Stickler inc	Posted - 2008.05.02 23:05:00 - [79] /moves to motsu with a salvage dessie
Slade Trillgon Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2008.05.02 23:09:00 - [80] Originally by: Jashan T'Okara Originally by: Had Enough 2. These claims of a trial account being able to pay for a GTC with their salvaging, well this remains to be seen. I'm not a trial but I'll let you know if I can afford a GTC from my salvaging, no where near there yet. You know what, I am going to try this out. While in theory and on paper it works, I too want to know if it really IS viable. So as soon as I get home from work I am going to start up a new trial account and see if, in 2 weeks, I can activate with the mad isk I am making from salvaging scanned out mission runners in Motsu. Heck if you use Steam you get 3 weeks to make it happen Slade
Jashan T'Okara	Posted - 2008.05.02 23:12:00 - [81] Originally by: Slade Trillgon Originally by: Jashan T'Okara Originally by: Had Enough 2. These claims of a trial account being able to pay for a GTC with their salvaging, well this remains to be seen. I'm not a trial but I'll let you know if I can afford a GTC from my salvaging, no where near there yet. You know what, I am going to try this out. While in theory and on paper it works, I too want to know if it really IS viable. So as soon as I get home from work I am going to start up a new trial account and see if, in 2 weeks, I can activate with the mad isk I am making from salvaging scanned out mission runners in Motsu. Heck if you use Steam you get 3 weeks to make it happen Slade Guess that right there gives me reason to install steam. Is it going to force me to install the client in yet another location tho? That would make me sad, as having to have a 2nd install just to get on SISI already makes me sad.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.02 23:12:00 - [82] Originally by: Kis Kecheri All that is a side-step to the actual point of wether the ninja salvager is still being rewarded to much for the level of risk they take. It doesn't matter how many caveats you throw into the equatio. If you are getting to much out for to little in in conflict with CCP philosophy then something is wrong. It side-steps nothing. It shows that the risk (minute) and the rewards (sizeable and calculable) for the mission runner are in no way out of whack compared to the risk (also minute) and rewards (random) for the salvager. Quote: It might be a siziable portion of their assests but that again side-steps the point of too much reward for the risk. If the salvage ship explodes and the LvL4 runner explodes randomly and their assests are suspended, but then get compensated an average sum of what each would make for one mission/ninja salvage expedition, which one would be able to recover their ship first? Where would that compensation come from? Our seasoned mission runner will have a backup, and can go back to running missions. Our salvager will have lost his sole mean of income. Quote: This is even beside the additional risk the LvL4 runner might have with suicide-gankers. …which is the same for both, especially since our salvager is supposed to carry around tons of jucy salvage, and the missioner is not. It is, in short, a non-issue. Quote: "Too much" to put it midly would be what CCP determines is acceptable reward for the risk that individual takes. …and given their stance on the topic – that it is very much an intended mechanic, and that they've even gone so far as to make it easier – it would seem that they have already made this evaluation, and found that the risk vs. reward is suitably balanced.
Mioelnir Minmatar KULT Production Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.05.02 23:14:00 - [83] Originally by: Kis Kecheri This activity seems to be out of line of the CCP risk vs reward agenda. No. The salvage ninja is a profession that emerged as a counterforce to the stupidly broken risk vs reward of highsec missionrunning. When I'm running missions for Angel Cartel in Curse, I never ever have a salvage ninja warp into my missions.
Slade Trillgon Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2008.05.02 23:18:00 - [84] Originally by: Jashan T'Okara Originally by: Slade Trillgon Originally by: Jashan T'Okara Originally by: Had Enough 2. These claims of a trial account being able to pay for a GTC with their salvaging, well this remains to be seen. I'm not a trial but I'll let you know if I can afford a GTC from my salvaging, no where near there yet. You know what, I am going to try this out. While in theory and on paper it works, I too want to know if it really IS viable. So as soon as I get home from work I am going to start up a new trial account and see if, in 2 weeks, I can activate with the mad isk I am making from salvaging scanned out mission runners in Motsu. Heck if you use Steam you get 3 weeks to make it happen Slade Guess that right there gives me reason to install steam. Is it going to force me to install the client in yet another location tho? That would make me sad, as having to have a 2nd install just to get on SISI already makes me sad. It is pretty wierd set up. I played a toon for three weeks to check another races ships. I think I had to download the client again, but once the registration was over you could use the old start up client and delete everything else. I still have the steam on my comp but I believe that it could also be deleted since all charater and account info is kept on the CCP servers. Slade
Kis Kecheri	Posted - 2008.05.02 23:24:00 - [85] Quote: t side-steps nothing. It shows that the risk (minute) and the rewards (sizeable and calculable) for the mission runner are in no way out of whack compared to the risk (also minute) and rewards (random) for the salvager. I showed that was not the case earlier. You expose more assets to greater risk running a LvL4 mission then ninja salvaging in a destroyer. You can't simply dismiss it especially with the added potential of suicide-gankers looking for a target. Quote: Where would that compensation come from? Our seasoned mission runner will have a backup, and can go back to running missions. Our salvager will have lost his sole mean of income. Re-read my paragraph. It was a hypothetical. It was to demonstrate exactly the difference in asset loss versus reward on an equal basis to ask a very specific question. Avoiding the question or introducing other factors into the equation to get around the point is fruitless. Quote: àwhich is the same for both, especially since our salvager is supposed to carry around tons of jucy salvage, and the missioner is not. It is, in short, a non-issue. This is completely not the case. Feel free to ask pro suicide gankers wether they would rather hit a mission runner or a ninja salvager. The answer is rather obvious. Suicide gankers can kill mission runners at a profit, but not the salvager. Quote: àand given their stance on the topic û that it is very much an intended mechanic, and that they've even gone so far as to make it easier û it would seem that they have already made this evaluation, and found that the risk vs. reward is suitably balanced. They have not been explicit on this subject so such a conclusion is hardly reachable. At best you can say they modified the mechanics to how it is now and are observing/analyzing the outcome. If you can point me to a CCP post that explicitly states that a trial account being able to pay for itself using this method is completely and wholey intentional then I would be forced to agree with you.
Kis Kecheri	Posted - 2008.05.02 23:30:00 - [86] Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 02/05/2008 23:32:16 Originally by: Mioelnir Originally by: Kis Kecheri This activity seems to be out of line of the CCP risk vs reward agenda. No. The salvage ninja is a profession that emerged as a counterforce to the stupidly broken risk vs reward of highsec missionrunning. When I'm running missions for Angel Cartel in Curse, I never ever have a salvage ninja warp into my missions. Then would you say it is technically safer in Curse to run lvl4 missions since you would not have to deal with suicide-gankers and ninja salvagers being in your system as they would be flushed out naturally? I thought the community was in agreement that 0.0 activities were more rewarding but equally if not less risky then high sec ones of the same vein? In other words 0.0 > High sec > low sec in terms of reward and risk.
Strak Yogorn Amarr Mind Warpers	Posted - 2008.05.02 23:36:00 - [87] Originally by: Nyphur Actually, the flag from stealing someone's ore is corp-wide so the thief is vulnerable to the miner's corpmates too. It's the player's own fault if he doesn't bring protection. guess what, its the players own fault for not salvaging as he goes! whoa.. did i just provide a solution to these hello-kitten carebears ?
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.02 23:38:00 - [88] Edited by: Tippia on 02/05/2008 23:44:53 Originally by: Kis Kecheri I showed that was not the case earlier. You expose more assets to greater risk running a LvL4 mission then ninja salvaging in a destroyer. You can't simply dismiss it especially with the added potential of suicide-gankers looking for a target. …and I showed earlier that this "greater risk" isn't there. The mission certainly won't kill you, and the things outside the mission that might kill are the same for everyone. Quote: Re-read my paragraph. It was a hypothetical. …and thus completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Quote: Avoiding the question or introducing other factors into the equation to get around the point is fruitless. You mean like coming up with hypothetical examples, where money suddenly appears out of nowhere, and which disregard the fact that for the salvager discussed here, "loss" equates to "game over" as opposed to "re-equip and go on as usual" for the missioner. Quote: This is completely not the case. Feel free to ask pro suicide gankers wether they would rather hit a mission runner or a ninja salvager. The answer is rather obvious. Suicide gankers can kill mission runners at a profit, but not the salvager. That's because the mission runners that get hit are obsessed with pimping out their ship with pointless equipment (at the cost of, say, a Salvager I, which would remove the whole problem of ninja salvagers). If the gankers don't hit the salvager, then it seems to suggest that the rewards for salvaging aren't all that great, which disproves the basis for the whole discussion. Quote: They have not been explicit on this subject so such a conclusion is hardly reachable. Uhm, yes they have. See page 1 of this thread (if your google-fu is weak, you can find the original quote here). As for trials being able to pay for themselves – GTC trading means that anyone is able to pay though playing. Why should trials be any different, especially given the amount of game mechanic knowledge that is required for this to work (knowledge that a new player most likely won't have)?
Kis Kecheri	Posted - 2008.05.03 00:04:00 - [89] Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 03/05/2008 00:05:50 Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 03/05/2008 00:05:23 Quote: àand I showed earlier that this "greater risk" isn't there. The mission certainly won't kill you, and the things outside the mission that might kill are the same for everyone. Going back and re-reading your replies I can safely say that you did not show anything. You simply dismiss the point. Hand waving. LvL4 mission runners spend more time getting the point of being able to run lvl4 missions and expose more assets(thus becoming better suicide-ganker targets) then someone simply running a salvaging ship probing about, both in terms of capital and opportunity cost. Quote: àand thus completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Negative. Hypotheticals are often used to simply to show a point and make logical decisions from. My hypothetical specifically involved agents and actions directly related to the subject at hand. Quote: You mean like coming up with hypothetical examples, where money suddenly appears out of nowhere, and which disregard the fact that for the salvager discussed here, "loss" equates to "game over" as opposed to "re-equip and go on as usual" for the missioner. Straw man argument. Obviously if a salvager was able to obtain their ship, then they can do it again. That was the point of the hypothetical you dismissed. A salvaging destroyer can be paid for with entry level missioning/mining/etc and replaced with said activies. An idiot who loses more then they can afford, no matter what they are doing, is still an idiot. It would take a lot longer for a LvL4 mission runner to replace their CNR doing lvl4 missions then a ninja salvager salvaging if what the OP stats is true. Quote: That's because the mission runners that get hit are obsessed with pimping out their ship with pointless equipment (at the cost of, say, a Salvager I, which would remove the whole problem of ninja salvagers). If the gankers don't hit the salvager, then it seems to suggest that the rewards for salvaging aren't all that great, which disproves the basis for the whole discussion. Two points in that. The first is irrelevant because it avoids the fact that a lvl4 mission runner is still a far better target to gank then a ninja salvager. The second is misleading because the point wasn't to suggest that a salvaging ship or the salvage it may take is worth more then the lvl4 mission runner, but that the ninja salvager is greatly outpacing their counterpart in the risk vs reward equation. Quote: Uhm, yes they have. See page 1 of this thread. As for trials being able to pay for themselves û GTC trading means that anyone is able to pay though playing. Why should trials be any different, especially given the amount of game mechanic knowledge that is required for this to work (knowledge that a new player most likely won't have)? Being able to pay through playing is beside the point. A method for trials to reliably and mechanically pay for their extention that may suggest an imbalance in the risk vs reward system CCP institutes is. In addition, I see no CCP member on the 1st page of this thread explicitly stating such a phenomenon is completely green-lighted and/or encouraged, nor a link to such. This will be my final post on this subject since it seems to me that the arguments have become somewhat circular and non-productive. I will leave it to whomever to get the reply and last word in.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.03 00:19:00 - [90] Originally by: Kis Kecheri Going back and re-reading your replies I can safely say that you did not show anything. Read it again. Quote: Straw man argument. Obviously if a salvager was able to obtain their ship, then they can do it again. You're missing the point of the entire thread: the salvager is working on a time limit. He has to earn money, or the whole idea of not paying for your trial-to-fulltime crossover is lost. Yes, he can lose his ship, but he cannot afford the loss in investment, neither in time nor equipment/ISK. Quote: The second is misleading because the point wasn't to suggest that a salvaging ship or the salvage it may take is worth more then the lvl4 mission runner, but that the ninja salvager is greatly outpacing their counterpart in the risk vs reward equation. Again: risk = same; rewards = less for salvager. No wait. In fact, given what we're actually talking about here, I'd say the risk is higher for the salvager, since he cannot afford any mistakes – the missioner can. Quote: Being able to pay through playing is beside the point. No, it is in fact the entire point. Without it, there would be no way to "reliably and mechanically pay for [a trial account's] extension". And, again, CCP has shown through both action and words that this is well within their bounds for risk vs. reward.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.05.03 00:59:00 - [91] Salvaging isn't theft, it's tidying up litter.
Maglorre	Posted - 2008.05.03 03:33:00 - [92] The activity of a Ninja Salvager does not bother me that much, I often don't bother salvaging a mission depending on how I'm feeling and I can always create more wrecks (I've only ever had 2 drop ins in missions, probably cause I don't mission much and not in a major hub) What does annoy the crap out of me is the "I'm smarter than you" smack some of them dish out in local and the fact that they rarely seem to ask which just makes me sad. One thing that I think would help is if they made wrecks probable. It's almost enough to make an old carebear cry to know there is hundreds of wrecks floating around in space that I can't get to. That might also solve some of the conflict that this topic generates... but perhaps CCP does not WANT to reduce the conflict. Where'd I put that tinfoil hat?
Mioelnir Minmatar KULT Production Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.05.03 03:53:00 - [93] Originally by: Kis Kecheri Then would you say it is technically safer in Curse to run lvl4 missions since you would not have to deal with suicide-gankers and ninja salvagers being in your system as they would be flushed out naturally? No. With bubbles and roaming gangs that actually scan you out to shoot you, it is definately not safer. But risk and reward are balanced and there is therefor no need for shadow professions to emerge. And btw, exactly what is a suicide ganker in 0.0 supposed to be? Quote: I thought the community was in agreement that 0.0 activities were more rewarding but equally if not less risky then high sec ones of the same vein? In other words 0.0 > High sec > low sec in terms of reward and risk. Curse is NPC 0.0, it is therefor not safe. 0.0 mission running is at best barely more rewarding than highsec missionrunning, usually less. Although the removal of the angel extravaganza overseer structure admittedly helped the Angel LP store, you could get stuff in Jita cheaper than even the isk cost in the LP store. Blood Raiders is probably worse, Serpentis a bit better. Reward, relative to the involved risk: High-Sec > 0.0 > Low-Sec Risk, absolute: NPC-0.0 > Low-Sec > Alliance-0.0 > High-Sec Ninja salvager scale down the rewards in highsec to a suitable level and are therefor fine.
Kahega Amielden	Posted - 2008.05.03 04:05:00 - [94] In the OP's rant about the evils of ninjasalvaging, he gave a rough indication of how ninjasalvaging is done. For those intrigued and those interested in finding the OP and salvaging his wrecks, click here. /shameless plug.
El'Niaga Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.05.03 05:00:00 - [95] I've long thought that letting people play for free was a bad idea. If you really wanted to kill the macro miners, then kill the isk for gtcs.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.03 05:08:00 - [96] Great Jebus is this thread still alive?

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