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Murtala Mushin Market	Posted - 2008.05.04 13:36:00 - [1] Ok I know these moons are worth a fortune and some alliance wars and politics are because of these rare moons. I also know that Dysprosium is very expensive. But why? What is Dysprosium used for? Who buys it etc.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.04 13:41:00 - [2] Dysprosium is used in (almost?) each and every finished T2 item. The quantity required (with respect to other materials) is much higher than its rarity (number of moons with dysprosium vs moons with other materials). Supply and demand then dictates price, and price dictated is "up, up, up". As long as demand for T2 items keeps being high (you can thank invention for that), the supply can't possibly keep up with demand (limited number of moons, ever-increasing number of players using T2 gear), so prices will keep going up.
Murtala Mushin Market	Posted - 2008.05.04 13:44:00 - [3] Originally by: Akita T Dysprosium is used in (almost?) each and every finished T2 item. wow!
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.04 13:45:00 - [4] Well, for that matter, so is Morphite, and (almost) every other moon material. It's not a matter of "being used" at all, it's a matter of how much.
Szprinkoth Sponsz GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.04 13:45:00 - [5] Originally by: Akita T Dysprosium is used in (almost?) each and every finished T2 item. The quantity required (with respect to other materials) is much higher than its rarity (number of moons with dysprosium vs moons with other materials). Supply and demand then dictates price, and price dictated is "up, up, up". As long as demand for T2 items keeps being high (you can thank invention for that), the supply can't possibly keep up with demand (limited number of moons, ever-increasing number of players using T2 gear), so prices will keep going up. This is a good thing because it makes 0.0 space mean something.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.04 13:51:00 - [6] Originally by: Szprinkoth Sponsz This is a good thing because it makes 0.0 space mean something. It's also a bad thing because the potential for production of Dysprosium is limited by the number of moons that have it (and lowered every time a change of ownership occurs), which can only drive up prices. If this goes on unchecked, we could potentially reach a point where Dysprosium would be the only moon material worth something (a lot, actually), while all the other moon materials would be worth almost the same, that is, next to nothing... and Dysprosium value would keep increasing (along T2 item prices) to the point where supply (constant) would meet demand (lowering as prices go up). Having everything except Dysprosium be worth nothing is not a very good thing. Of course, thet won't be happening any time soon, but eventually, as population increases, that's where we'll be heading if the ratio of usage is not balanced with ratio of potential supply. If we would have a balance like that, Dysprosium would still be one of the most valuable materials... just not that much more valuable.
Shoukei Caldari Boobs Ahoy	Posted - 2008.05.04 14:12:00 - [7] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Szprinkoth Sponsz If this goes on unchecked, we could potentially reach a point where Dysprosium would be the only moon material worth something (a lot, actually), while all the other moon materials would be worth almost the same, that is, next to nothing... and Dysprosium value would keep increasing (along T2 item prices) to the point where supply (constant) would meet demand (lowering as prices go up). Having everything except Dysprosium be worth nothing is not a very good thing. Not too long ago, all moon materials WERE worth NOTHING. Invention caused Dysprosium to jump in price because this is the only resource thats even remotely scarce. We need more moon materials like Dysprosium to make this game interesting and to make space worth fighting for. Without these focal points that cause wide scale gold rush and thus warfare, this game is meaningless and boring.
Havohej Minmatar The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.05.04 14:17:00 - [8] There are no moons.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.04 14:18:00 - [9] Edited by: Akita T on 04/05/2008 14:20:54 Originally by: Shoukei Not too long ago, all moon materials WERE worth NOTHING. Invention caused Dysprosium to jump in price because this is the only resource thats even remotely scarce. We need more moon materials like Dysprosium to make this game interesting and to make space worth fighting for. Without these focal points that cause wide scale gold rush and thus warfare, this game is meaningless and boring. With invention, ALL moon minerals have the potential to be worth something, since they get used up in huge quantities (demand is up orders of magnitude). The fact that dysprosium is used in disproportionate amounts compared to rarity makes it insanely expensive, while the rest suffer. How would it be if ALL T1 ships would use minerals in 7:6:5:4:3:2:1 ratios (trit:pye:mex:iso:nox:zyd:mega) instead of the current (some rough average across all races' ships and modules combined) 4096:1024:256:64:16:4:1 ratios ? Imagine how totally worthless tritanium would be, and how much megacyte would cost. Really, it's exactly the same issue right here.
Mavolio White Nova Industries Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2008.05.04 14:24:00 - [10] Originally by: Akita T It's also a bad thing because the potential for production of Dysprosium is limited by the number of moons that have it (and lowered every time a change of ownership occurs), which can only drive up prices. When you take over a moon the material that you can mine from it stays the same.

Murtala Mushin Market	Posted - 2008.05.04 14:25:00 - [11] I am no industrialist but as a pvp player, T2 stuff is already very cheap imo. And seeing 0.0 alliances fight over these moons is fun. Really really good fun.
Emily Spankratchet Minmatar Pragmatics	Posted - 2008.05.04 14:28:00 - [12] Originally by: Mavolio When you take over a moon the material that you can mine from it stays the same. True, but when the system that contains that moon keeps changing hands continuous production becomes a little tricky.
Nahia Senne Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.04 14:37:00 - [13] Edited by: Nahia Senne on 04/05/2008 14:37:40 Originally by: Emily Spankratchet Originally by: Mavolio When you take over a moon the material that you can mine from it stays the same. True, but when the system that contains that moon keeps changing hands continuous production becomes a little tricky. edit: You lose 2 days of production.
Aurix Lexico Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.05.04 14:38:00 - [14] I'm fine with moons the way they are, tech II is already extremely cheap, the market can stand it rising in price some.
Amastat Caldari Omegatech	Posted - 2008.05.04 14:40:00 - [15] Originally by: Emily Spankratchet Originally by: Mavolio When you take over a moon the material that you can mine from it stays the same. True, but when the system that contains that moon keeps changing hands continuous production becomes a little tricky. Yea - this is true, however it isn't super often you have changes at such a fast frequency UNLESS it's a very high-profile area that both sides want badly. If the Dys moons are spread out properly, hopefully just a fraction of the total mined dys moons in the galaxy will be changing at the kinda rates that would cause that. This would usually only ever happen along boarders as well, which is only a small portion of all of 0.0.
Fredior Khan'Sebies Minmatar Mikramurka Solace	Posted - 2008.05.04 15:07:00 - [16] Originally by: Amastat Yea - this is true, however it isn't super often you have changes at such a fast frequency UNLESS it's a very high-profile area that both sides want badly. If the Dys moons are spread out properly, hopefully just a fraction of the total mined dys moons in the galaxy will be changing at the kinda rates that would cause that. This would usually only ever happen along boarders as well, which is only a small portion of all of 0.0. Unless it was known which moons had Dys and one or a couple very powerful alliances decided to specifically target the systems with those moons. Could happen.
Market Bandit	Posted - 2008.05.04 15:59:00 - [17] Originally by: Amastat Yea - this is true, however it isn't super often you have changes at such a fast frequency UNLESS it's a very high-profile area that both sides want badly. Areas containing dys tend to be high-profile and wanted by both sides because they have dys moons, rather than being a profitable side effect of taking a high profile area.
VengerZap Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:03:00 - [18] It's specifically used to make Dysporite and Ferrofluid. Which in turn are used to make Fermionic Condensates, Ferrogel and Hypersynaptic Fibers. While small amounts of these materials are needed for some tech2 module production they're mainly used in tech2 ship construction. Fermionic Condensates and Ferrogel are the main components in a tech2 ships' reactor, shield and thruster systems. These are the most expensive materials used in tech2 ship product and make up the bulk of the build cost.
Faife Noctiscion Twilight Trade Cartel	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:03:00 - [19] The issue is one of risk vs reward. Dyprosium mines are currently just isk printing fountains.
000Hunter000 Gallente Missiles 'R' Us	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:25:00 - [20] Funny how ccp made it so the iskprinting went from T2 bpo owners to the biggest alliances.

Indmine	Posted - 2008.05.04 17:20:00 - [21] I wonder why goonswarm is attacking tri POSs?
Fluffy Slippers	Posted - 2008.05.04 17:49:00 - [22] Originally by: Indmine I wonder why goonswarm is attacking tri POSs? Cuz they cant take BoBs?
Lysander Drakos Evolution	Posted - 2008.05.04 17:50:00 - [23]
Ralara Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.04 18:13:00 - [24] omg like this one time, i was at a neighbours house, and i did a poo, but it was really big and it wouldnt flush so i had to get a plastic bag and lift it out the toilet and put it in the bin.
Zantrei Kordisin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.04 18:21:00 - [25] Originally by: 000Hunter000 Funny how ccp made it so the iskprinting went from T2 bpo owners to the biggest alliances. Yes, it's exactly the same thing because you couldn't possibly take over a moon from someone else. That's unheard of! Way too many stupid people on the forums these days.
Mithrantir Ob'lontra Gallente Ixion Defence Systems	Posted - 2008.05.04 18:23:00 - [26] Originally by: Ralara omg like this one time, i was at a neighbours house, and i did a poo, but it was really big and it wouldnt flush so i had to get a plastic bag and lift it out the toilet and put it in the bin. Too bad you didn't eat them. Who knows you might liked them or we might be saved. But next time spare us from your adventures with your body functions. We don't care or want to know
Emily Spankratchet Minmatar Pragmatics	Posted - 2008.05.04 18:23:00 - [27] Originally by: 000Hunter000 Funny how ccp made it so the iskprinting went from T2 bpo owners to the biggest alliances. The cleverest bit was seeding the good moons in the places where the biggest alliances would be several years later. They must be psychic. Or something.
sakana North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.05.04 18:24:00 - [28] Akita, you do remember when vagabonds cost 250mil don't you? And the idea that invention increased demand? Uh....invention increased supply by a ****load.
Enkidu Uruksen Wakizashi Renaissance	Posted - 2008.05.04 19:00:00 - [29] Originally by: Szprinkoth Sponsz Originally by: Akita T Dysprosium is used in (almost?) each and every finished T2 item. The quantity required (with respect to other materials) is much higher than its rarity (number of moons with dysprosium vs moons with other materials). Supply and demand then dictates price, and price dictated is "up, up, up". As long as demand for T2 items keeps being high (you can thank invention for that), the supply can't possibly keep up with demand (limited number of moons, ever-increasing number of players using T2 gear), so prices will keep going up. This is a good thing because it makes 0.0 space mean something. Why 0.0 specifically? There are dysprosium moons in low sec, also. Some guy on "Sell Orders" is flogging a list of a dozen such moons... all with towers on them, ofc.
Murtala Mushin Market	Posted - 2008.05.04 22:59:00 - [30] Originally by: Faife The issue is one of risk vs reward. Dyprosium mines are currently just isk printing fountains. Gives alliances something to fight over. like "Capture the Flag" in FPS. unlike T2 bpo these mons seem like somthing people can fight over and can change hands.

Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2008.05.04 23:11:00 - [31] Edited by: Franga on 04/05/2008 23:11:34 Ya. Good moon mineral. Hot as. And as others have said, at least these can be fought over and are able to be a taken. As soon as invention was brought into the game, t2 BPOs became the biggest flaw in the game. However, love what it did to t2 prices. Good stuff.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.04 23:18:00 - [32] Originally by: sakana Akita, you do remember when vagabonds cost 250mil don't you? And the idea that invention increased demand? Uh....invention increased supply by a **load. Invention increased demand for moon materials**, since the volume of manufactured T2 items can now match the demand for them, thanks to invention uncapping the manufacturable volume. And don't worry, vagabonds may very well end up costing 250 mil again eventually, this time because dysprosium becomes too expensive.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.05.04 23:19:00 - [33] Originally by: sakana Akita, you do remember when vagabonds cost 250mil don't you? And the idea that invention increased demand? Uh....invention increased supply by a ****load. I remember those days. I hated those days. 500M for a hulk back then as well (for you carebears) The only issues here is that some rare moon materials are worth $$$ like dyspro (3B a month or something) and some are not even worth the fuel costs of the tower. This basically makes some allianes space lol worthless and some ok 5 titans a month for you. Which you would think would make for some good wars, but nono. If your neighbors space is worth junk like yours, why invade?
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.05.04 23:29:00 - [34] Limited resouces like dys-moons is one of the reasons why I love this game. CCP should introduce more geographical varietis in resources but also production at different OCs to stimulate inter-regional trade and the means to enforce tradeembargos.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.04 23:40:00 - [35] The fact you have valuable, capurable resources is excellent. The fact that ONE very scarce resource is insanely valuable, yet plenty of common resources are practically worthless... not so much. I'm all for competition and all that, but even if the crummy moons need to be worthless, the "average" moons being worthless too is not a good thing at all.
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.05.04 23:47:00 - [36] Edited by: Cpt Fina on 04/05/2008 23:47:09 Originally by: Akita T I'm all for competition and all that, but even if the crummy moons need to be worthless, the "average" moons being worthless too is not a good thing at all. Why is this bad? If the average moon is worthless then people will soon to realize this and stop mining them, decreasing supply and increasing prices? The value of the average moon is at a level where many deem it profitable enough to set up a POS at them.
Kaaii Caldari PixelJuice Design Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.05.04 23:50:00 - [37] Originally by: Akita T The fact you have valuable, capurable resources is excellent. The fact that ONE very scarce resource is insanely valuable, yet plenty of common resources are practically worthless... not so much. I'm all for competition and all that, but even if the crummy moons need to be worthless, the "average" moons being worthless too is not a good thing at all. There only "considered" worthless because onward of about 6 months ago every son and daughter of kobal decided moon mining was for them, and spammed 1000's of towers in the matter of weeks. Causing a glut of these "worthless" mins that, before the gold rush were by no means worthless. There must always be a golden asset just as there must be mud, to keep things alive & in competition with others. Complaining that a middle of the road asset is not valuable only because everyone is mining it is a false perception. Yes dysp is the "gold" of EVE,,,,,(right now) just as it and others wasn't not so long ago. Supply and demand. Its how it works here....
Frug Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.05.05 00:06:00 - [38] Originally by: 000Hunter000 Funny how ccp made it so the iskprinting went from T2 bpo owners to the biggest alliances. Funny how you think the biggest alliances SHOULDNT have some kind of an isk return for their investment. Of course they should. Don't be ridiculous.
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.05.05 00:06:00 - [39] Are there any maps out there with every worthwhile moon listed?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.05 00:10:00 - [40] Originally by: Wendat Huron Are there any maps out there with every worthwhile moon listed? If you're willing to pay well enough, I'm sure somebody would sell you that map ...not me.

Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.05.05 00:15:00 - [41] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Wendat Huron Are there any maps out there with every worthwhile moon listed? If you're willing to pay well enough, I'm sure somebody would sell you that map ...not me. I'd pay as much as I do for the outpost map, nada.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.05 00:27:00 - [42] Outpost, you see those on the F10 map. Moon mineral composition... you either have to scan the moon with a moon probe, or own a POS anchored there. There's a certain cost associated with that knowledge, so don't expect to get it "for free" anywhere.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.05.05 00:31:00 - [43] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 05/05/2008 00:33:14 I made this point about Dyspro moons in a sci and industry thread a while back, but while my opinion started to sway, I now don't care about the income a dyspro moon recieves. Why? As a former T2 component producer, with my two accounts and 5 industry packhorses I'd make 2.4 billion a month profit in hi sec each month. This is pretty easy going, needing about two or three logins a week to adjust prices, check prices, shift materials and goods. Running some numbers, Dyspro moons make you 6 billion or so a month (after POS running costs) (without using it or anything, just mining it). Now, what do you have? A) Inconvenience of supplying a 0.0 POS with fuel regularly B) Sizeable defence budget. C) People to defend the moon. Arguably, people would want to be paid for defending the moon, while the alliance still makes some ISK. So lets say 5 people defend the moon across a month (very generous there), Alliance takes 30% profit, corp owning it takes 20% profit, the other 50% goes to the people defending (3 bil). Split over just 5 people, thats 600 mil a month. Psht. I'll take my solo hi-sec component making which makes 2.4 bil a month thanks. This is why I don't have a problem with the current state of Dysprosium prices. EDIT: I just realised you could say "Hey, but you need 5 characters to produce that profit, shouldn't you split the isk profit then, and then you get less than 500 mil per month?" Well, the difference is the above example is 5 different RL people, you can't defend a POS from a dreadnaught fleet with yourself and one online alt (2 accs, only one char online from each account). You need 5 physically different people. But then, that's a gross underestimate (100 man blobs anyone?)
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.05 00:48:00 - [44] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 05/05/2008 00:33:14 I made this point about Dyspro moons in a sci and industry thread a while back, but while my opinion started to sway, I now don't care about the income a dyspro moon recieves. Why? As a former T2 component producer, with my two accounts and 5 industry packhorses I'd make 2.4 billion a month profit in hi sec each month. This is pretty easy going, needing about two or three logins a week to adjust prices, check prices, shift materials and goods. Running some numbers, Dyspro moons make you 6 billion or so a month (after POS running costs) (without using it or anything, just mining it). Now, what do you have? A) Inconvenience of supplying a 0.0 POS with fuel regularly B) Sizeable defence budget. C) People to defend the moon. Arguably, people would want to be paid for defending the moon, while the alliance still makes some ISK. So lets say 5 people defend the moon across a month (very generous there), Alliance takes 30% profit, corp owning it takes 20% profit, the other 50% goes to the people defending (3 bil). Split over just 5 people, thats 600 mil a month. Psht. I'll take my solo hi-sec component making which makes 2.4 bil a month thanks. This is why I don't have a problem with the current state of Dysprosium prices. EDIT: I just realised you could say "Hey, but you need 5 characters to produce that profit, shouldn't you split the isk profit then, and then you get less than 500 mil per month?" Well, the difference is the above example is 5 different RL people, you can't defend a POS from a dreadnaught fleet with yourself and one online alt (2 accs, only one char online from each account). You need 5 physically different people. But then, that's a gross underestimate (100 man blobs anyone?) LOL 5 people defend a moon? How about 500? Or 1500 ? Those are more realistic nubmers in eve warfare (warfare that exist basically to take outposts and valuable moons)
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.05.05 00:50:00 - [45] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 05/05/2008 00:52:14 Quote: LOL 5 people defend a moon? How about 500? Or 1500 ? Those are more realistic nubmers in eve warfare (warfare that exist basically to take outposts and valuable moons) Exactly my point. My argument is basically designed to draw out the fact I've used ridiculously unrealistic numbers regarding manpower needed to maintain a POS on a Dyspro moon, and people complain that it gives "6 billion a month free isk-printing wtfbbqage". There's nothing wrong with the supply of or price of Dysprosium. The only people who DO complain are industrial-types who refuse to raise their prices and are (somehow) forced to sell below profit. Forced. Yeah. Right
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.05.05 02:07:00 - [46] Edited by: Nomakai Delateriel on 05/05/2008 02:06:48 Originally by: Kylar Renpurs There's nothing wrong with the supply of or price of Dysprosium. The only people who DO complain are industrial-types who refuse to raise their prices and are (somehow) forced to sell below profit. Forced. Yeah. Right There is something wrong with the supply of dysprosium. Our "supply and demand" economy doesn't include the "supply" part for the moon market. In any viable supply economy there is an ability to increase supply if demand is sufficiently high. Hell, you could even produce gold by extracting it from regular Seawater if the price on gold became high enough (however since it's only 1-2 part per 10 billion the price would have to be really high for that to be feasible). In EVE, no such luck. There is a static supply of moon minerals and an ever increasing demand. Since Dysprosium is the limiting factor for many types of T2 production Dysprosium is the mineral that is going to escalate into insanity if demand becomes high enough. Ie, there needs to be a revamp of the moon mining system. Invention freed the supply on the BPO/BPC side (more effort means more BPCs), moon mining is up next. Also. You don't need 500 or 1500 people to protect one dysprosium moon. You can need 100-300 people for about 3-8 hours if the moon is sieged (if the enemy is deploying a ****load of people to take it), so you need to ability to scrounge up that many people to defend it. But a POS isn't sieged 23/7 now is it? So if you only have one moon those 100-300 people would be free to do something else 99% of the time. As such it's not feasible for 5 people to defend a moon, on the other hand it's feasible for 2000 people to defend a whole LOT of moons (as long as they're not TOO spread out). For example rumor has it that Outbreak has a pretty firm grip on almost all low-sec Dysprosium moons. And outbreak isn't exactly the largest alliance/corp around. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.05.05 02:11:00 - [47] Originally by: Akita T Outpost, you see those on the F10 map. Moon mineral composition... you either have to scan the moon with a moon probe, or own a POS anchored there. There's a certain cost associated with that knowledge, so don't expect to get it "for free" anywhere. Why not? People love their spoiler sites. These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.05 02:19:00 - [48] Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel There is something wrong with the supply of dysprosium. Our "supply and demand" economy doesn't include the "supply" part for the moon market. In any viable supply economy there is an ability to increase supply if demand is sufficiently high. Hell, you could even produce gold by extracting it from regular Seawater if the price on gold became high enough (however since it's only 1-2 part per 10 billion the price would have to be really high for that to be feasible). In EVE, no such luck. There is a static supply of moon minerals and an ever increasing demand. Since Dysprosium is the limiting factor for many types of T2 production Dysprosium is the mineral that is going to escalate into insanity if demand becomes high enough. Actually, in real-life, it's even easier. You can invent/discover something (more common / cheaper) that replaces the rare element(s) altogether if the demand is high enough. In EVE, no such luck either... the one and only way to maufacture T2 goods is with the rare/expensive Dysp. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.05.05 02:22:00 - [49] Originally by: Wendat Huron Why not? People love their spoiler sites. People also love their ISK. And if someone is willing to pay for the info you're not just going to hand it out to every Ted and Fred out there. Especially since most people that acquire such info dreams of actually owning said Dysprosium moons (less people that know, less competition). ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.05.05 02:24:00 - [50] Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel Originally by: Wendat Huron Why not? People love their spoiler sites. People also love their ISK. And if someone is willing to pay for the info you're not just going to hand it out to every Ted and Fred out there. Especially since most people that acquire such info dreams of actually owning said Dysprosium moons (less people that know, less competition). It's not like there's a massive influx of corporations who are in these space holding alliance to begin with. It's all musical chairs with the same faces going around so I figure they pretty much know by now. These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!

Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.05.05 02:29:00 - [51] Quote: There is something wrong with the supply of dysprosium. Our "supply and demand" economy doesn't include the "supply" part for the moon market. In any viable supply economy there is an ability to increase supply if demand is sufficiently high. Hell, you could even produce gold by extracting it from regular Seawater if the price on gold became high enough (however since it's only 1-2 part per 10 billion the price would have to be really high for that to be feasible). Wrong. What's happening is the demand is balancing out. Pre-invention there was a void of T2 supply, thus the massively inflated prices. But there wasn't the demand for ferrogel, fermionics etc.. that there is now. What you're seeing is the demand void being filled by supply, with that demand coming down into the Advanced Materials market. IMO this demand on the limited supply of Dysprosium is correct behaviour. I think it's better that there's now some T2 components worth 6000 ISK, and others worth 100,000 ISK thanks to dyspro prices. Nobody complains about trit being worth 1000 times less than Megacyte/Zydrine. Quote: Also. You don't need 500 or 1500 people to protect one dysprosium moon. You can need 100-300 people for about 3-8 hours if the moon is sieged (if the enemy is deploying a ***load of people to take it), so you need to ability to scrounge up that many people to defend it. But a POS isn't sieged 23/7 now is it? So if you only have one moon those 100-300 people would be free to do something else 99% of the time. As such it's not feasible for 5 people to defend a moon, on the other hand it's feasible for 2000 people to defend a whole LOT of moons (as long as they're not TOO spread out). For example rumor has it that Outbreak has a pretty firm grip on almost all low-sec Dysprosium moons. And outbreak isn't exactly the largest alliance/corp around. So? 2000 people defending a lot* of moons? My point stands, if any more than 5 people per moon are "defenders" it becomes unprofitable. Does that 2000 man alliance own 200 Dyspro moons? Also, whatever "extra" those defenders do in their spare time that isn't industry related (I'm guessing you mean mining, ratting etc), I do that in my spare time while manufacturing too, with my "20 mil an hour lvl 4 missions". Static supply of moon minerals is not an issue, the price of T2 equipment is just being forced back to the levels it should be at. Improve Market Competition!
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.05 02:38:00 - [52] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Nobody complains about trit being worth 1000 times less than Megacyte/Zydrine. Well, actually...it should be 4096 times lower than Mega and 1024 times lower than Zydrine, given the claimed "base rarity" and its actual usefulness in manufacture. See post #9 on the first page of this thread. For T2 goods and primary materials, the exact opposite occurs. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
LetsDoThis	Posted - 2008.05.05 04:42:00 - [53] I think it'd be better if moons didn't have x y and z materials until infinite. Without getting into any too specific of an idea, I think moons should have a variable amount of material. Not so variable that you have to micro-manage your reactions production chain everyday, but variable in long durations. Like say you survey the surface of the moon. The current analysis indicates that there are x amounts of x materials. You could plan your production chain for that moon for x amount of days, and nearing the end, you could re-analyze the moon and see what materials are now present on the surface, and in what quantities. It'd be closer the oil production at that point. Cause yeah maybe your moon has disporium on the surface, and you could set up a large calari tower and harvest the F out of it. Until you run that resource dry. Not that the moon would then be useless, just that that disporium pocket ran out of material.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.05.05 05:15:00 - [54] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs So? 2000 people defending a lot of moons? My point stands, if any more than 5 people per moon are "defenders" it becomes unprofitable. Does that 2000 man alliance own 200 Dyspro moons? No, but those 2000 man alliances aren't only defending dysprosium moons either. They're defending a ton of other moons and ratting grounds (triple 1.75 battleship spawns, chance of officerspawns and whatnots). And it's not "unprofitable". They're raking in a total of 6 billion per month per dysprosium moon. For no effort what-so-ever beyond the need to defend that territory (which they would have done anyway). And they could be manufacturing and inventing on top of that if they wanted to. So no. It's not "unprofitable" by any means. For example, you don't have to be a genius to notice which corporation in an alliance has control over the moonmining+T2 component manufacturing industry. They're the ones with ****loads of cash to throw around, and whose CEOs end up on killmails featuring fully faction fitted BS/Carriers/Motherships. And no. Supply+Demand isn't balancing out. You only have to look at the Dysprosium price curve to see that it isn't "balancing out". 6 months ago it was 6-10k, 4 months ago it was 20k, a month ago it was 60k. Now jita prices are breaking the 100k barrier. Next month it could be 150k or even 200k. And my point still stands. Until Moon minerals become a balanced resource where there is either an ability to minimize use of certain materials, or a flexible supply... until then we're not dealing with a proper supply/demand economy. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.05.05 05:21:00 - [55] The problem with dispro is that currently it's used for everything, creating a supply shortage. In comparison, promethium is used for many things, and the 2 other "ultra rares" are not used for much at all. All CCP has to do to at least partially address this issue is change the reactions so that the 4 rare moon mineral types become racial, so that instead of dispro being used for everything, it would be used for only say caldari tech, and the other 3 for the other 3 racial tech. This would increase supply and level out pricing, so that 2 would go up in price but the other 2 would go down, resulting in overall more reasonable pricing in general. Unlikely for who knows what reason they'll do this though.
Mr Siman Spawn More Overlords	Posted - 2008.05.05 06:09:00 - [56] Why do rising prices matter again? So maybe people can't afford (as many) fancy T2 ships anymore. Guess what, that means the people they are fighting ALSO have the same problem.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.05.05 06:09:00 - [57] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 05/05/2008 06:12:26 Quote: No, but those 2000 man alliances aren't only defending dysprosium moons either. They're defending a ton of other moons and ratting grounds (triple 1.75 battleship spawns, chance of officerspawns and whatnots). And it's not "unprofitable". They're raking in a total of 6 billion per month per dysprosium moon. For no effort what-so-ever beyond the need to defend that territory (which they would have done anyway). And they could be manufacturing and inventing on top of that if they wanted to. So no. It's not "unprofitable" by any means. For example, you don't have to be a genius to notice which corporation in an alliance has control over the moonmining+T2 component manufacturing industry. They're the ones with **loads of cash to throw around, and whose CEOs end up on killmails featuring fully faction fitted BS/Carriers/Motherships. Woosh, hear that? It's the issue going straight over your head. For one, if they 'controlled' the manufacturing industry, how did I make 12 billion off it in 6 months off my own two or three hours a week gametime and some seed funding of 4 billion isk? For two, Quote:** For no effort what-so-ever beyond the need to defend that territory (which they would have done anyway). You been in a 0.0 alliance? I've been in three, and I left each one because "I didn't go to the fight" often enough. Flying around the more populous 0.0 regions I find them to be very empty, so of those 2000 members, about 200 are actually on at any one time? and most are AFK in station? But lets say they are all ratting 23/7. All 200 of those alliance members. Lets run some figures. 1 hour ratting = 30 mil ISK. 200 people ratting 23/7 for a month: 4.3 Trillion ISK. Divided across 2000 people? 2 billion a month. Lets take R64 for a ride, 2000 moons are owned by this alliance (one per man). There's 4 R64 types out there (iirc). Lets be optimistic, that's 32 R64 moons. Lets say all of them are Dyspro, the highest earner. Thats another 192 billion a month. Split over 2000 people? Hahhaha. Each corp member has 2.2 bil a month now. The rest of their moons will earn a fraction of this, but the result is proportional to whatever effort you can put in ANYWHERE ELSE IN EVE. The ENTIRE ALLIANCE'S responsiblity is to now maintain 2000 moons. I dunno, does an alliance want to come out and say how many dyspro moons it owns? Anyway, you just furthered my point. A 2000 man alliance makes far more ISK from having 10% of it's population ratting than Dysprosium moons will ever make up for. So what's the big issue? Are you really that set on complaining about a 2000 man alliance getting an extra 200 bil a month from moon mining when that alliance could make 4 trillion isk in ratting alone? If you delve further into this, you'll probably find alliances make around 4 billion isk per corpie per month. Whether those corpies see it or it just goes into the fat pockets of their CEO's is their issue. But that's a HUGE logistical effort and RL time requirement. Personally, I prefer my 2-3 hours a day earning me 2.4 bil with no CEO to answer to. Improve Market Competition!
Sinder Ohm Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.05.05 06:21:00 - [58] Dysp moons are ugly evil things, they cause ugly emo rage b$tch fights in alliances due to thier limited presence ingame and the stupid amount of profit they yield. It has also become (from what I can see) one of the best reasons to start a war.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.05.05 06:57:00 - [59] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Woosh, hear that? It's the issue going straight over your head. Or maybe I have a better grip of the issue than you do. Perhaps the "I didn't go to the fight" is at the core of why you don't understand what Dysprosium moons are worth to an alliance. The alliances out there are mainly PvP alliances. That means that a lot of their members are going to PvP as often as they can afford and spend as little time as possible ratting. Also ratting doesn't yield 30 mil per hour for most people. You don't take down a battleship every 2-3 minutes. Also most people in the alliance will only rat to replace their own ships. As soon as they have a comfortable buffer they're going to go out and PvP some more. If you assumed that the whole alliance is ticking like clockwork, then a few dysprosium moons here and there are nothing. Well, nothing except a hassle to the guys trying to produce T2 components and seeing the prices escalate (I'm not one of those. Just a Happy consumer really) But few alliances are ticking like clockwork. Laziness, internal intrigue, PvP, "leisure time", socializing takes up a LOT more time than just moneymaking. Moon mining income on the other hand just keeps on ticking, the 100 units of dysprosium keeps dropping into your silo every hour, like clockwork. And if something keeps on ticking in 7 billion per month per moon it's a huge advantage. Especially when its easy to motivate why most of that income should end up directly in the corp wallet and used (hopefully) fairly efficiently to boost corp projects (instead of through taxes where at least 80-95% end up in the pilots own pockets). To sum it up. Distributed across all pilots it's a teeny weeny increase. For the Corp wallet it's a huge boost. You can always scrounge up parts of your alliance to defend a POS. It's big, it's short term and it might even be exciting. I doubt you can find an alliance that can get 50% of its current guys online to be 100% effective ratters. Ratting is, to sum it up, boring. But it's really not the main issue with dysprosium. It was merely a side argument. The main argument is that inflexible supplies of any component isn't good for an expanding economy. EVE is an expanding economy, and inflexible supplies of moon minerals isn't good for it. There is no reason to not 100% exploit all possible sources of profitable materials, which means that there is no room for applying perhaps less efficient and more work intensive forms of resource extraction in order to meet increasing demand (which is what would happen in a proper supply/demand economy). You'll have a continually escalating price of the limited "bottleneck" resource until you arrive at the point where people have to spend an inordinate amount of time getting cash, thus forcibly driving down demand. Given the pre-invention pain-threshold it's obvious that the prices of T2 products (when not limited by increased supply) can be driven up to a much higher point, and I doubt that anyone (except who ever controls the most limited resource) wants to see HACs driven up to the 150-250 mil prices that used to be the norm (although this time around 75% of those 150-250 mil would end up in Moon miners pockets and not in the T2 BPO holder pockets). ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 09:32:00 - [60] Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel In any viable supply economy there is an ability to increase supply if demand is sufficiently high. This is not true[first of all you are using the term supply incorrectly]. It is only true when the resource is not fully utilized. If dyspo were not fully utilized then increased demand would move quantity supply and people would utilize moons that were previously inefficient to use. edit: but really dyspo is not really an issue that can't be fixed by randomly seeding moons or tweaking production costs. if tech 2 costs are something that is supposed to be managed Vote Goumindong for CSM

Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.05.05 09:43:00 - [61] Edited by: Nomakai Delateriel on 05/05/2008 09:43:40 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel In any viable supply economy there is an ability to increase supply if demand is sufficiently high. This is not true[first of all you are using the term supply incorrectly]. It is only true when the resource is not fully utilized. If dyspo were not fully utilized then increased demand would move quantity supply and people would utilize moons that were previously inefficient to use. edit: but really dyspo is not really an issue that can't be fixed by randomly seeding moons or tweaking production costs. if tech 2 costs are something that is supposed to be managed Name one resource on Earth that is fully utilized? Just a single one would do nicely. ...yeah. There isn't one, because in an actual supply&demand economy full utilization is only a theoretical concept. In EVE, not so much. Also realize that in a supply&demand economy (as the theory goes) full utilization is something bad and would lead people to discover ways to reduce demand (which we, like Akita T pointed out, can't). ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 09:56:00 - [62] Edited by: Goumindong on 05/05/2008 10:01:13 Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel Name one resource on Earth that is fully utilized? Furs from animals on the endangered species list. Necessary for the production of specific fur rugs. Whale Meat[and oil] In many places water Soon to be oil, eventually we will run out of energy period[since it is flatly limited by the energy that the sun imparts on the world] The world is filled with examples of people running out of various resources that we have not run out of more currently obvious things is simply because we have or had enough to continue growing. Vote Goumindong for CSM
Indigo Johnson Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.05 10:05:00 - [63] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 05/05/2008 10:01:13 Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel Name one resource on Earth that is fully utilized? Furs from animals on the endangered species list. Necessary for the production of specific fur rugs. Whale Meat[and oil] In many places water Soon to be oil, eventually we will run out of energy period[since it is flatly limited by the energy that the sun imparts on the world] The world is filled with examples of people running out of various resources that we have not run out of more currently obvious things is simply because we have or had enough to continue growing. They are over utilized resources, a fully utilized resource is one which regenerates at the rate it is harvested/collected and therefore has a overall total that stays constant. I think this issue is muddied because, if your smart and organised, you shouldn't just sell the dysproisum as the mineral, you can make alot more isk if you react it further...which thatnks to the Jita market is hardly a hard thing to do.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.05.05 10:28:00 - [64] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 05/05/2008 10:01:13 Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel Name one resource on Earth that is fully utilized? Furs from animals on the endangered species list. Necessary for the production of specific fur rugs. Whale Meat[and oil] In many places water Soon to be oil, eventually we will run out of energy period[since it is flatly limited by the energy that the sun imparts on the world] Example 1: Luxury goods. Nothing we couldn't (for all practical purposes) replace with something equally efficient. Not to mention that people are hardly trying to breed these endangered animals (or encourage the animals to breed by creating favorable enviroments)in order to increase supply other than on a very limited scale. Example 2: Isn't 100% utilized. Is also to a certain extent in the department of luxury goods. Example 3: Hardly. There is always more water to be found if you search enough (it only depends on how hard you search and how deep you drill). Most arid climates also have access to coastlines (and therefor the potential to build desalination plants. Also, in most places you could recycle your watersupply in a more efficient manner. Example 4: Not true. You can actually synthesize oil. Except that currently it's not economically viable. So it isn't a fully utilized resource. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.05 10:33:00 - [65] Quote: I dunno, does an alliance want to come out and say how many dyspro moons it owns? It isn't many. A "rich" region might have upwards of 10-15 dysprosium and similar number of promethium moons. Most regions probably average less than half that, with many regions having not a single one(drone regions comes to mind).
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 11:25:00 - [66] Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel ... You are missing and obfuscating the point. We have run out of things in the past and will in the future. For instance you should note that i mentioned the synthesis of oil[and if you failed to notice that then you've got bigger problems] Whether or not a good is a luxury is irrelevant. No there is not always more water to be found. Sometimes stuff just has hard caps and when you run out, you run out. If it ought to be managed at a lower price then make an argument as to why it ought to be managed at a lower price. If it ought not to be managed at a lower price then don't. There are valid reasons to keep prices low and valid reasons to make other moons valuable. But any argument for whether or not it should be changed does not lie in economics and any attempt to make an economic argument towards balance is foolish. Economics is not our ideal and can only be used to as a guide to get players to do what the developers want. Such, if we want t2 prices to be high, we can leave dyspro alone until t2 gets to the prices we want. If we want t2 prices to be low, we can seed more dyspro. If we want to decouple prices of some t2 items with others we can change the inputs for production. But we are not here to make some ideal economic paradise. Everything that is done in the game is going to be managed and this cannot be changed when an all powerful entity controls all aspects of the world.
Crotador Minmatar The Older Gamers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.05 11:26:00 - [67] Now what would make things really interesting is if moons only had a finite amount of mins to be mined. Once they are all gone a different mineral is seeded. This would shake things up in the way thats needed to balance the powers.
Scagga Laebetrovo Delictum 23216 San Matari.	Posted - 2008.05.05 11:29:00 - [68] Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel Example 4: Not true. You can actually synthesize oil. Except that currently it's not economically viable. So it isn't a fully utilized resource. mmmm...synthesise fuel from meat
Zeoliter Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.05 11:32:00 - [69] Edited by: Zeoliter on 05/05/2008 11:34:11 There is no increase in demand so the whole argument about Dysprosium is moot. I build T2 ships in Empire from Invention and my prices get lower every week. There are more T2 ships being introduced daily on the market than people to buy them. The only demand is from the Inventor Manufacturers. Now anyone can build a T2 ship everyone is building T2 ships and fighting to sell their product. Used to be able to clear 20m on an invented Zealot now it's not worth the time and effort. So there's enough high-end material to cater to twice the Eve population in terms of consumer product. The only ones that moan are the alliances in space with not alot of high-end moons. But Eve is a PVP game and such a thing is a good thing. If your space doesn't have the Dysp/Prom moons then go take space from an alliance that does the moons. Just because a certain alliance tried and failed we now have their CSM candidates pushing for a re-seeding of moons which is totally unnecessary. As Earth's population expands our oil doesn't. Our resources are finite and so should Eve's. Instead new technologies should be introduced as would be naturally be the case in civilisation's development. One idea is to introduce "Alchemy" where you mix lower end moon minerals to create a high end material. As T2 evolved to Invention moon mining should evolve to Alchemy - which makes something accessible to all (which is much more intelligent than re-seeding a finite resource in Scalding Pass please).
Scagga Laebetrovo Delictum 23216 San Matari.	Posted - 2008.05.05 11:36:00 - [70] Originally by: Zeoliter One idea is to introduce "Alchemy" where you mix lower end moon minerals to create a high end material. As T2 evolved to Invention moon mining should evolve to Alchemy - which makes something accessible to all (which is much more intelligent than re-seeding a finite resource in Scalding Pass please). Hmm, the concept of alchemy actually sounds pretty good. It could use refinements, but the idea is quite good imo! returns to thinking of biodiesel and burgers

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 11:45:00 - [71] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel Example 4: Not true. You can actually synthesize oil. Except that currently it's not economically viable. So it isn't a fully utilized resource. mmmm...synthesise fuel from meat Where does meat come from? Vote Goumindong for CSM
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.05.05 11:46:00 - [72] The only t2 atm that feels pricy to me is ships. With a lot of things, like tank gear, cap regen, weapons, t2 is significantly cheaper than the best named. Paying 1-2mil per module is not that steep, and the meta named can be rare enough to 13+mil a piece (arbalest heavies anyone?). I do think the rising prices of t2 gear will have an effect tho on people. T2 ships already require a fairly significant investment, and are used in the riskiest of situations (PvP). And although individual modules aren't that expensive, in the aggregate I'm sure they add a respectable amount to the total cost of a ship. The gameplay downside I see is that as prices rise, some people might be less inclined to fly fully-fitted ships in PvP, or might be less inclined to PvP at all (I already have cheap corp mates flying t1 frigates, haha). I wouldn't think it would have a major impact on PvP, but if prices continue to rise, it could start to have an effect. Then again, I don't like the idea of CCP just bailing out its virtual consumers every time prices start to rise a little bit. "Low" prices in and of themselves aren't a requisite for an competitive market, and I don't see anything in the current situation that's bad for the market. Rather, as already discussed, I just feel that it has an impact on players/gameplay. Whether CCP does something about dys moons or not will just depend on how they balance potential gameplay concerns against leaving the market alone.
Lord Fitz Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 11:54:00 - [73] Originally by: Zeoliter Edited by: Zeoliter on 05/05/2008 11:34:11 There is no increase in demand so the whole argument about Dysprosium is moot. I build T2 ships in Empire from Invention and my prices get lower every week. The prices get lower because the other moon materials have picked up in supply and their prices have dropped, as have invention datacores etc. But they still don't get lower every week, this week many T2 ships started getting more expensive again a sign that datacore and the 'other' advanced material prices have bottomed out. Quote: If your space doesn't have the Dysp/Prom moons then go take space from an alliance that does the moons. That's possible when it gives a slight advantage to have them, when it gives a dozen titans advantage it's simply not possible, providing the defenders are semi-competent and awake. Quote: pushing for a re-seeding of moons which is totally unnecessary. As Earth's population expands our oil doesn't. Our resources are finite and so should Eve's. Instead new technologies should be introduced as would be naturally be the case in civilisation's development. One idea is to introduce "Alchemy" where you mix lower end moon minerals to create a high end material. As T2 evolved to Invention moon mining should evolve to Alchemy - which makes something accessible to all (which is much more intelligent than re-seeding a finite resource in Scalding Pass please). This is exactly right, it would be unfair to reseed the moons, obviously they should be an advantage to the alliances that hold them, but once they reach a certain worth, there should be a short-circuit just like invention is for T2 BPOs, just like oil-alternatives are on Earth. Oil is by far the easiest resource to do a great many things with, but there ARE alternatives, for a considerable cost. Which is exactly how it should be in Eve, infinite supply of the end product (the reactors or whichever) even if they require a great number of alternatives (or many reaction cycles) instead of a small amount of dysprosium. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the price of the T2 product in the end, it has to do with the supply and demand of high end moon minerals being different from every other resource in the game. Something with no alternatives and a fixed supply that is less than the demand (The ONLY reason for prices to go up long term is increased demand, you can't deny it's there, market manipulation is only effective for so long.)
Lord Fitz Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 11:59:00 - [74] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Oh god, you have so little of a clue it's amazing. Many regions out there have 0 dysprosium moons, several have 20 odd dysprosium/promethium moons. The price of dysprosium and the manufacturing industry have nothing to do with each other at all, profit in that industry is not reliant on cheap or expensive dysprosium. It's simply reliant on other people, as is everything else in teh game except Dysprosium/Promethium because the supply is finite. This isn't true for the other moon minerals as their price drops low enough to decrease the supply before the demand = the supply, though it could potentially be true if Dysprosium wasn't the bottleneck. Normal mineral prices are dependent on players, as are T2 prices (inventors), T1 prices (builders) etc etc. Maybe one or two alliances maintain 2000 moons, and of those 20 will likely make more profit than the other 1980 so they can just ditch the 1980 if it got to be too much work. You need 110,000m3 of fuel for a tower for a month, you need ZERO that's right ZERO people to be defending it normally, as they simply do not get put into reinforced as attacking them is a significant risk, occasionally they do get taken over, only to be placed in the hands of another alliance that again has ZERO people assigned to defending that tower, those people just go on and do their own thing, and when on average the tower is attacked every 12-18 months THEN they defend it. Very few alliances maintain the moons, almost all the moons are controlled in each alliance by a handful of people, myself I used to maintain 32 POS's myself. Zero Dysprosium was in the region, but if they were that would be 224 billion isk, or 3 titans a month. Hell, you'd only need to keep them for a very short period to buy one. Quote: But that's a HUGE logistical effort and RL time requirement. Advanced reactions require logistical effort, I ran several and could do it myself, 3 million m3 / month just in fuel for a tiny fraction of what could be done in a single jump freighter trip every 3 months for a dysprosium moon. There is almost ZERO effort required to maintiain the actual moon mining, as shown in the many many things that are mined for just 5-10mil isk a week, in comparison to the almost 2 billion isk per week for Dysprosium. That's 1995million isk per week above what the 'effort' is worth to many people. Quote: 200 people ratting 23/7 for a month: 4.3 Trillion ISK. I don't know what alliance you were in, but there isn't a single alliance that comes within a fraction of that, unless they are entirely macros. Not to mention 1 hour ratting for 30million isk would be in the best systems which can then only accomodate a few people, you would be looking at maintaining about 5x as many regions as eve actually has in TOTAL to generate that. Quote: Nobody complains about trit being worth 1000 times less than Megacyte/Zydrine. That's because anybody can just go mine Megacyte/Zydrine, or drone for it, or refine stuff to get it. There is an unlimited supply. Quote: My point stands, if any more than 5 people per moon are "defenders" it becomes unprofitable. There are ZERO ! People defending them ZERO ! for 99.99% of the time that 0.01% of the time, there's 300. You will average more than zero people defending it of course, but there will be far less then one on average.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.05.05 12:04:00 - [75] Originally by: Goumindong If it ought to be managed at a lower price then make an argument as to why it ought to be managed at a lower price. If it ought not to be managed at a lower price then don't. There are valid reasons to keep prices low and valid reasons to make other moons valuable. But any argument for whether or not it should be changed does not lie in economics and any attempt to make an economic argument towards balance is foolish. Economics is not our ideal and can only be used to as a guide to get players to do what the developers want. I think you're missing my point. Fixed supply = not fun. Hell, "Mud mining" (as I understand it from CCPs description) isn't going to be a whole lot of fun either since it would introduce an easily reachable upper-pricecap for each moon mineral (unless it's more advanced than I suspect). What I'd LIKE from an industrial system the potential for all components of the system (Moon mining, Component production, T2 production etc) to be scalable. As demand increases supply can respond with increased volumes, but at a higher price if the specialized manufacturers become overwhelmed (which in the case of moon mining has already happened for Dysprosium. The production of dysprosium isn't enough to cover the needs of the T2 industrial business, and as such prices are escalating). Invention has of course already reached market saturation (because of the way skills work in EVE), but the price of for example Mining isn't really capped in the same way (except tritanium). As such we have balanced (but influenced) prices of minerals and a mineral market that from what I can tell is a fairly competitive (since mining is time consuming and high-end mining is potentially high risk, and as such very much influenced by politics). Also, if the moon mining system is overhauled I'd still like moon mining to be strategicly (moon) based. Like moon mining, but less binary (not a "there is a moon mineral, or there isn't" and not a "If it's not a dysprosium moon you can still produce dysprosium at a higher cost....ON ANY MOON YAY! Pricecap"). ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Shidhe Minmatar The Babylon5 Consortuim	Posted - 2008.05.05 12:27:00 - [76] Not another thread on this (look at the science and industry forum...) The issue here is not to be decided with people with an economic interest (the Dyspro moon owners or market manipulators posting heavily I see...) or even the industrialists, but by the player base. As an industrialist, I don't mind the price - money can be made - its the uncertainty thats the problem. Also, we are still producing from a pre-manipulation stockpile (we like making things better than dumping stocks for a quick profit). If we, and others like us, have to really enter the Dyspro market again, even more problems will result. But, as in RL, markets hate uncertainly, and I would rather go back to making shuttles than bulk buying Dyspro in the present circumstances. But I recon that most players wont like the consequences of having a critical resource bottleneck with inflexible supply. Filling the coffers of market manipulators will just make even bigger, and more damaging, manipulations possible. Efforts to get more people into 0.0 or low sec will fail as the non-Dyspro moon economy takes a big hit. Introducing new T2 ships will become increasingly pointless as prices spiral with an increasing player base. Setting up T2 production will be more restricted to the `Big Boys' already in the market. Inflexible supply in a growing, developing game is BAD, OK?
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.05.05 12:31:00 - [77] zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 13:04:00 - [78] Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel I think you're missing my point. Fixed supply = not fun and leads to a less interesting economy. No. 1. You give no reason why its not fun, you also give no reason why its not interesting. "More like our economies" is not interesting [Hell, the entire point of economics as current is to make economies as uninteresting as possible] 2. Fighting over stuff is fun 3. Fixed Supply + increasing demand = higher prices 4. Higher prices = more fighting over resources 5. Ergo fixed supply = fun 6. Fighting over stuff is interesting... Quote: As demand increases supply can respond with increased volumes, but at a higher price if the specialized manufacturers become overwhelmed (which in the case of moon mining has already happened for Dysprosium. The production of dysprosium isn't enough to cover the needs of the T2 industrial business, and as such prices are escalating). Dyspro is not perfect inelastic. Stop talking like it is. At low prices it will not be fully utilized because of the costs of fueling and defending POS. At high prices the cost to defend increases which limits exploitation of highly contested areas. Quote: Invention has of course already reached market saturation (because of the way skills work in EVE), but the price of for example Mining isn't really capped in the same way (except tritanium). As such we have balanced (but influenced) prices of minerals and a mineral market that from what I can tell is a fairly competitive (since mining is time consuming and high-end mining is potentially high risk, and as such very much influenced by politics). Minerals are heavily regulated. Via price caps and via insurance. Supply is also heavily regulated [we can go over the specifics of what exactly is causing the current prices and their last large changes if you like, but that is another thread]. You are missing the point. It is not an economic question. It is a balance question. All the econ does is let us figure out what will happen when we change things. Vote Goumindong for CSM
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.05 13:13:00 - [79] Edited by: Akita T on 05/05/2008 13:14:13 Goumindong, one single question for you... what's more fun: a) crap, crap, crap, excellent, crap, crap, crap, meh-ok, crap, crap, crap, bleh-maybe, crap, crap or b) crap, bleh-maybe, meh-ok, very good, crap, meh-ok, decent, bleh-maybe, crap, crap, bleh-maybe, crap, good, crap ...with regards to moon value ? 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.05.05 13:14:00 - [80] Originally by: Goumindong 1. You give no reason why its not fun, you also give no reason why its not interesting. "More like our economies" is not interesting [Hell, the entire point of economics as current is to make economies as uninteresting as possible] 2. Fighting over stuff is fun 3. Fixed Supply + increasing demand = higher prices 4. Higher prices = more fighting over resources 5. Ergo fixed supply = fun 6. Fighting over stuff is interesting... As it is the only ones who actually can fight over dysprosium moons are the big boys, whose advantage over "not-so-big-boys" is solidified by the ownership of dysprosium moons. Which leads to static entities. How many high-sec alliances have actually made a successful move from high-sec/low-sec to 0.0 in the last year (with the exception of the drone regions) without the backing (read "being the pets of") of a major power-bloc? There are a few new names, but they're mostly re-hashes of old 0.0 alliances. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 13:27:00 - [81] Originally by: Akita T Goumindong, one single question for you... what's more fun: a) crap, crap, crap, excellent, crap, crap, crap, meh-ok, crap, crap, crap, bleh-maybe, crap, crap or b) crap, bleh-maybe, meh-ok, excellent, crap, meh-ok, decent, bleh-maybe, crap, crap, bleh-maybe, crap, good, crap ...with regards to moon value ? There is no difference between A and B. You are still fighting over resources which are largely controlled on a system by system basis[or by arrangement]. All it does is change which areas and systems are more valuable. However at the one with less points of value you do have less grind involved in removing and erecting infrastructure. The questions comes down entirely to. 1. Whether or not you want to decouple the prices of tech 2 modules with other tech 2 modules[as per standard input relationships, such an increase in demand for any one t2 module will increase the quantity supplied of that module will increase the demand of dyspro will decrease the supply of other modules that have dyspro as an input which will increase their prices(some of the same problems in rigs where popular rigs make other less good rigs much more expensive than they ought to be)] 2. Whether or not you want to regulate the prices of tech 2 modules and what you want to regulate those prices too. Now, decoupling is good because it makes it easier to identify popular/overpowered modules and it means that its easier to really have a risk/reward balance between modules.[E.G. some rigs are really expensive and good, and some rigs which use the same components are really expensive but ****ty, but would be decent if they were really cheap] And regulating t2 module and ship prices is good because it ensures that t2 is in the right risk/reward balance you want it to be. But it has nothing to do with anything else. Vote Goumindong for CSM
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 13:31:00 - [82] Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel Originally by: Goumindong 1. You give no reason why its not fun, you also give no reason why its not interesting. "More like our economies" is not interesting [Hell, the entire point of economics as current is to make economies as uninteresting as possible] 2. Fighting over stuff is fun 3. Fixed Supply + increasing demand = higher prices 4. Higher prices = more fighting over resources 5. Ergo fixed supply = fun 6. Fighting over stuff is interesting... As it is the only ones who actually can fight over dysprosium moons are the big boys, whose advantage over "not-so-big-boys" is solidified by the ownership of dysprosium moons. Which leads to static entities. How many high-sec alliances have actually made a successful move from high-sec/low-sec to 0.0 in the last year (with the exception of the drone regions) without the backing (read "being the pets of") of a major power-bloc? There are a few new names, but they're mostly re-hashes of old 0.0 alliances. I'd say zero. But this has little to do with the value of the moons and very much to do with the ease of defending space. Vote Goumindong for CSM
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.05.05 14:34:00 - [83] Thanks to Lord Fitz' deconstruction of my highly exaggerated claims about the ISK from 0.0 life, and Nomakai Delateriel's claim of Quote: Or maybe I have a better grip of the issue than you do. Perhaps the "I didn't go to the fight" is at the core of why you don't understand what Dysprosium moons are worth to an alliance. Nomakai makes out that Dysprosium moons are the be-all-end-all of 0.0. You're making out that 0.0 is far less effort for that "free isk" than I'm making out. And for even less effort, I'm earning more ISK than a collection of 20 typical alliance pilots who "rat to get their ships back", and more ISK per person that a 0.0 alliance makes. Gee, I want to move to 0.0 now Thus, Dysprosium moons aren't broken. Industry is not overly inflating. Nothing is wrong. They are not some big isk-printing machine. Thanks for concluding my argument for me Improve Market Competition!


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