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Goon-run business - Is it feasible?

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Qaedienne	Posted - 2008.05.06 04:55:00 - [61] "What is the primary issue? So far, what I can tell is that most people have a problem with me being a Goon. My gooniness will not change if I come back on some unaffiliated alt, it's a part of who I am. I've been posting in the Something Awful community for a loooong time, and I don't intend to leave the friends I've made in that time." Your alliance openly scams. Your loyalty to Goonswarm isn't an issue here, the scamming part is. And an unaffiliated alt would only work against you. Any public business venture of significant size will require an auditor, and the auditor would be required to report to investors if there is a heavy Goonswarm presence in the venture (assets, markets, mains, etc...) because, as I said, Goonswarm scams. If the investment community found out that Goonswarm members were seeking capital under alt characters, they'd assume the worst. "As for managing risk... I have no problems submitting to impartial third party audits should I decide to go non-goon with my investments. I believe in transparency in a business even if i'm not doing the best of jobs (and I make mistakes like every other entrepreneur). What other issues do you see with goon run business compared to a non-goon alt business?" Normally, you'd start with small investments and build up credibility, but that's not going to work in your case. People will just assume you're biding your time waiting for the big score. The only way I see GS ventures working with public capital is if someone outside GS handles the cash and assets.
SonOfAGhost Minmatar Minmatar Munitions and Tactical Assets Repository Zzz	Posted - 2008.05.06 05:04:00 - [62] Originally by: Haakkon Originally by: YouGotRipped Post with your main or don't post at all. I find this extremely ironic as I'm posting with my main and I was told to come back with an alt. Even more ironic when you realize that the torll is not just an alt, but an alt of an alt. ----- Originally by: kedoremos EVE's economy is **** for CPAs, Annuities, and Stock Brokers.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.06 09:28:00 - [63] No, it will never happen. I would rather invest in Riethe or Ufail.
Jackie Fisher	Posted - 2008.05.06 09:31:00 - [64] What's that old expression about judging a person by his friends?
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.06 10:19:00 - [65] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 06/05/2008 10:19:56 Originally by: Jackie Fisher What's that old expression about judging a person by his friends? Those that have something in common gang up? lol Tell me who your friends are so I can tell you who you are. etc
Jackie Fisher	Posted - 2008.05.06 10:38:00 - [66] Originally by: YouGotRipped Those that have something in common gang up? lol Tell me who your friends are so I can tell you who you are. etc Somebody not asking for others trust or ISK.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.06 11:10:00 - [67] Originally by: Jackie Fisher What's that old expression about judging a person by his friends? If a person cares about his name, he WOULDN'T be in goonswarm.
Riethe Fine Goods for Fine Gentlemen	Posted - 2008.05.06 11:18:00 - [68] Look, there is only one thing that needs to be said in this topic: If the business is secured 100% under EBANK, people will invest happily because most people have excess money laying around. The only small percentage of people that won't invest under these circumstances are the individuals who believe they are too good to invest in a business that is related to a large organization of people, that consist of substantially wide-spread interests. Beyond that, this thread is an unnecessary waste of attention whoring because some industrial moron thinks his corp is any more important than anyone else's. TA
Haakkon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 11:55:00 - [69] Edited by: Haakkon on 06/05/2008 11:57:04 Originally by: Riethe Look, there is only one thing that needs to be said in this topic: If the business is secured 100% under EBANK, people will invest happily because most people have excess money laying around. The only small percentage of people that won't invest under these circumstances are the individuals who believe they are too good to invest in a business that is related to a large organization of people, that consist of substantially wide-spread interests. Beyond that, this thread is an unnecessary waste of attention whoring because some industrial moron thinks his corp is any more important than anyone else's. TA I do think my corp is better than the others ;-) I enjoy being a goon thoroughly. 100% secure IPOs make very little sense to me as if I have 100%, or 120% as has been suggested, there's very little reason for me to raise outsider money. And even then, there's an issue of what the collateral secures. The success of the venture, my honesty, and so on. I'm a goon because it's a fantastic community of people to hang out with, if you're also a goon. I do not agree with my alliance's current policies on scamming. Several CEOs ago, scamming was a bannable offense because of this exact issue. I miss those times... That said, I appreciate everyone's input and I will take it into thoughtful consideration in my business ventures. I wish I could close this thread now.
Nielas	Posted - 2008.05.06 14:43:00 - [70] Scamming is really a black and white issue. You either support the scammers or you are against them. If you are against the scammers then you would not be part of a group that supports scammers.
Haakkon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 14:52:00 - [71] Edited by: Haakkon on 06/05/2008 14:52:35 Originally by: Nielas Scamming is really a black and white issue. You either support the scammers or you are against them. If you are against the scammers then you would not be part of a group that supports scammers. I view it as a very grey issue. There are downsides to being in goonswarm - repuation, lack of trust, resentment and hatred from the rest of Eve, and there are the positives - Fun, friends, I'm well established there, it's profitable. I personally don't support scammers and I think it's a shame that the greater goondom doesn't agree. I'll liken this to real life -- if your country or government does something you fervently disagree with, do you move out of the country or do you try to elicit change from within? I'm trying to do the latter. I don't think goons will ever be liked or trusted, but I do see a future where being a goon doesn't mean you're written off by the rest of the Eve community.
Tobin Shalim Vulcan Foundry	Posted - 2008.05.06 15:13:00 - [72] Edited by: Tobin Shalim on 06/05/2008 15:13:17 if Goons would provide a 15% monthly IPO, i'd invest in it. sure, it carries with it a certain inherent amount of risk that i lose all my invested isk in a scam, but really, that's true of just about every IPO that comes into existance. the risk is always there, but i'd be willing to take it to ream massive profits on thier venture. edit: i am not a Goon, have never been affiliated with Goons, am not a Goon alt.
Nielas	Posted - 2008.05.06 15:14:00 - [73] In Real Life there is a lot of grey areas. However, EVE tends to be a very black and white world. When it comes to trust you either trust someone or you do not. In the game we lack the many social tools we have in RL that allow that grey area where it comes to trust. If you trust someone in EVE you have to trust them 100% because you have no insurance in case they betray you. There is not 'social collateral' that prevents most people in RL from committing fraud. The question of identity is also severly different in EVE than it is in RL. In EVE alts and multiple accounts mean that trusting in an individual person is a toss up. They could behave completely diffent when playing their alts. You are essentially saying that people should trust YOU and not Goonswarm. However, in EVE we cannot really know who YOU are. Further you want us to trust that you exist in a grey area of Goonswarm behaviour where you support some parts of their behaviour but not others. However, in EVE we cannot actually insure that you are on the 'right' side of that grey line so we either commit one way or the other.
Kiki Arnolds Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.06 15:27:00 - [74] I have nothing against goonswarm, I find it entertaining that they were killing hulks, that they kill freightors. I think the crusade against BOB was a noble cause. Hell, I even think the way they scam is funny. When it comes to my money however, I would NEVER invest in a goon run venture (absent 100% security). Its almost impossible to detect a good scammer, you have to take every little hint and run with it. If anything flags them you stay away. Being a member of an alliance that supports scamming anyone who isn't a member is a HUGE red flag. I don't like BOB, what they do, or what they stand for. However if a member of BOB was running a reasonable IPO I would consider investing, because they domn't have a reputation for scamming etc... Investing should not be about politics, all you should consider is risk vs. reward. That is what most of the people who are saying they wouldn't invest are doing. ç¦
Haakkon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 15:39:00 - [75] Originally by: Nielas post You raise some very very excellent points and I'm afraid I don't really have a counter. Eve, though similar in many ways to RL, is not RL. It does not have the same societal pressures that enforce honesty as in Real Life. In the coming months I might crosspost earnings reports from my goon company here. Perhaps I'll need some non-goon financing in the future, in which case I'm not sure what else I can ask besides to give me a chance.
Nielas	Posted - 2008.05.06 19:25:00 - [76] Originally by: Haakkon Originally by: Nielas post You raise some very very excellent points and I'm afraid I don't really have a counter. Eve, though similar in many ways to RL, is not RL. It does not have the same societal pressures that enforce honesty as in Real Life. There is actually one 'social pressure' that still exists to a certain extent in EVE: peer pressure in a player's corp. While some people tend to jump corps on an almost daily basis, many people will develop strong social bonds within their corps that they will not risk losing. As such the strongest deterrant against questionable behaviour is in this game is that your corp will disown you. It's a highly imperfect deterrant but it is the best we have in EVE. This works against you in that with Goonswarm's reputation for allowing scammers, even that slim protection is removed.
Segge Bolled Caldari Dirty Sexy Pilots New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.05.07 00:56:00 - [77] I think Nielas has made yet another excellent point. My own question for Haakkon is this: Originally by: Haakkon In the coming months I might crosspost earnings reports from my goon company here. What exactly do you really hope to realistically achieve by doing that? I would have thought that you'd just run into the exact same situation as Sophie in that other thread, to which this one is somewhat related.
Haakkon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.07 04:55:00 - [78] Edited by: Haakkon on 07/05/2008 04:58:22 Originally by: Segge Bolled I think Nielas has made yet another excellent point. My own question for Haakkon is this: Originally by: Haakkon In the coming months I might crosspost earnings reports from my goon company here. What exactly do you really hope to realistically achieve by doing that? I would have thought that you'd just run into the exact same situation as Sophie in that other thread, to which this one is somewhat related. I expect to be met with skepticism, denial, and potentially some mockery. But weve got to start somewhere. And even if we're derided as scam artists or what-have-you, I feel that this is a start in the right direction, and i hope to pursue it in the face of whatever adversity I may face. Basically, my goal here isn't investment capital (currently goon isk has me well stocked). My goal is to have reasonable, non-trolling conversation with the greater business community. I hope to learn a thing or two about how everyone else works, and while I'm at it, hopefully provide a little bit of insight into Goon culture and perhaps show you that not every single one of us is cold-hearted and evil.
Segge Bolled Caldari Dirty Sexy Pilots New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.05.07 06:30:00 - [79] Edited by: Segge Bolled on 07/05/2008 06:31:03 Well, while that sounds a fair enough ideal to reason for it, I think you'll find that enough of you are indeed "cold-hearted and evil" (and known for it) to the point you'll fail miserably in most of those ambitions. Just, you know, saying. Good luck with it, though. You're going to need it ...
Roger Welco Caldari WhiteGlaze Interstellar Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.07 09:45:00 - [80] As a poster has already said, any investment carries risk. From my point of view from any IPO that is put up I will take a look at a weigh up the pros and cons of it. Sure a Goon related IPO, may have more risk from the reputation that they have in eve, but it may be still worth the investment like any other IPO. Also like any other IPO the isk I invest would be a risk, and if I lose one that I would take a hit on, but not one that would hurt that much. Never invest more then you can afford to lose. And besides it be nice to get some isk back from back from them to cover the loss of ships due to them
Fivel Ve	Posted - 2008.05.07 12:08:00 - [81] No i would never invest in any goon unless i personally knew him/her. The reason being is that members of GS do not really care about their reputations as has been proven on many occasions. They also have this in-group culture that leads them feel superior to other players in EVE who are not part of GS. This does not apply to all members I bet, however it's the majority. Since there is a great chance that you, a random goon that i do not know, are a part of this majority that has been scamming "pubbies" and even making vids of it and not caring for their rep i seriously see no reason to trust you.
Imperius Blackheart Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.07 12:33:00 - [82] Heh, funny thread this. I've resisted posting until now, but unlike most i'd probably give Haakkon a chance. When I made my first investment in eve IIRC it was in ISS or FIN and I only invested a couple of hundred million to begin with, once trust had build up I became more confident and now hold tens of billions in shares and bonds in both public and private corps. I'd probably start small in any investments run by goons but I wouldn't avoid it totally. Like it or not Goons are a massive powerhouse in this game, and have their shadier elements but its not like its a secret, and could it really be different than ISS was when it comes to politics? :P It would depend on how serious the goon running the IPO would be I've met and known stupid goons silly goons and smart "serious business" goons, it would take time to build up trust in the marketplace and the name would be a stumbling block for many, however running several smaller bonds/projects to build up the trust to run a big one might work. I think that the investor market for the most part in Eve is hungry for more businesses to put their money into, I know I am, and any goon run project would have the benefit that competition atm is pretty none existent. tl;dr version : Yes i'd invest in a goon business probably ~500 million or so to begin with until trust is build up. Would need a "serious business" goon.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company	Posted - 2008.05.07 22:21:00 - [83] Haakkon, I just wanted to publicly thank you for carrying over the discussion I was trying to start in the other thread, and running with it. I think that the opinions of the different viewpoints have been made clear at this point, some quite valid, and others ridiculously extreme. I've learned a lot from this thread, hopefully someone else can say the same too.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.07 22:46:00 - [84] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 07/05/2008 23:22:48 It was a pointless thread, we knew certain things all too well. However someone's got a lot of nerve to ask for a confirmation.
Timaios Art of War Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.08 11:09:00 - [85] Originally by: Haakkon 100% secure IPOs make very little sense to me as if I have 100%, or 120% as has been suggested, there's very little reason for me to raise outsider money. And even then, there's an issue of what the collateral secures. The success of the venture, my honesty, and so on. <snip> That said, I appreciate everyone's input and I will take it into thoughtful consideration in my business ventures. The only reason I could see for 100% secure IPO would be establishing yourself as a reliable entrepreneur. Naturally after one successful IPO you might be able to launch a new one with perhaps 50% security and slowly build up the reputation to a point where the ISK paid out by previous IPOs exceed the value of the new IPO you are going to launch - meaning that if you are a scammer and want to run away with the money, you'd have done better (ISK-wise) by not making public IPOs in the first place. That said, with proper 3rd party supervision I might be tempted to invest a small amount of ISK into a goon-run IPO. (I've been shooting and been shot at by goons since 2006 when they took Scalding Pass, mind.)
Haakkon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.08 12:11:00 - [86] Originally by: Timaios Originally by: Haakkon 100% secure IPOs make very little sense to me as if I have 100%, or 120% as has been suggested, there's very little reason for me to raise outsider money. And even then, there's an issue of what the collateral secures. The success of the venture, my honesty, and so on. <snip> That said, I appreciate everyone's input and I will take it into thoughtful consideration in my business ventures. The only reason I could see for 100% secure IPO would be establishing yourself as a reliable entrepreneur. Naturally after one successful IPO you might be able to launch a new one with perhaps 50% security and slowly build up the reputation to a point where the ISK paid out by previous IPOs exceed the value of the new IPO you are going to launch - meaning that if you are a scammer and want to run away with the money, you'd have done better (ISK-wise) by not making public IPOs in the first place. That said, with proper 3rd party supervision I might be tempted to invest a small amount of ISK into a goon-run IPO. (I've been shooting and been shot at by goons since 2006 when they took Scalding Pass, mind.) I love Scalding Pass :-) But PvP aside (I love PvP), I'm not looking for investment right now, just some conversation and Dialogue. Sophie's RSKY venture though has me very interested, and currently outperforms my company by a large margin. If anyone sells RSKY shares on the open market, they're probably a good buy as long as the seller isn't just trying to scam you.
Idaeus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.10 12:40:00 - [87] Originally by: Timaios That said, with proper 3rd party supervision I might be tempted to invest a small amount of ISK into a goon-run IPO. (I've been shooting and been shot at by goons since 2006 when they took Scalding Pass, mind.) You know what's funny? Best way to insure that anything of this nature is NOT a scam is to get other goons (or our allies) to invest in it. We have rules against scamming goons and blues, and practically all of us genuinely enjoy GoonFleet, so the chances of someone going **** goons over spacebux is very slim. (I'd wager the chances of it happening are actually less then other public investments.)
Nielas	Posted - 2008.05.10 15:49:00 - [88] Originally by: Idaeus Originally by: Timaios That said, with proper 3rd party supervision I might be tempted to invest a small amount of ISK into a goon-run IPO. (I've been shooting and been shot at by goons since 2006 when they took Scalding Pass, mind.) You know what's funny? Best way to insure that anything of this nature is NOT a scam is to get other goons (or our allies) to invest in it. We have rules against scamming goons and blues, and practically all of us genuinely enjoy GoonFleet, so the chances of someone going **** goons over spacebux is very slim. (I'd wager the chances of it happening are actually less then other public investments.) Yeah but what if all you goons are in on the scam? So if the IPO is a scam you are only scamming outsiders and inter-Goonfleet rules do not apply. In the end it still boils down to whether an investor will use 'guilt by association' as a factor in their risk assessment.
Idaeus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.10 16:18:00 - [89] Getting laughs at the expense of others is a short lived joy. Getting space rich, buying expensive toys and blowing people up is a long term joy.
Ortos Abyssus Incendia THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.10 18:39:00 - [90] I'm not really much of an investor, but if I were to invest. Im sorry, it would not be in anything affiliated with the word goon or swarm. Especially not a combination of the two. It cant be that hard to find money within goonswarm can it?

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