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Haakkon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 12:59:00 - [1] Edited by: Haakkon on 05/05/2008 12:59:38 I am a goon. I do a lot of business. I like making ISK. Currently most of my business is conducted entirely within Goonswarm, and any lesser empire business is conducted through alts. I'm considering starting several ventures open outside of goonswarm, but I'm not sure how feasible it is considering our notoriety. So I have some questions for you, the MD community, that I hope you will answer for me. Would you consider investing in an openly Goon business? I say "openly" because running ventures through alts is not hugely problematic, but it's something I'd rather not do. If so, would you demand additional safety measures in order to invest? What kinds of safety measures? Please, practical suggestions only. I can not run everything out of chribba's wallet.
Haakkon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 12:59:00 - [2] Edited by: Haakkon on 05/05/2008 12:59:38 I am a goon. I do a lot of business. I like making ISK. Currently most of my business is conducted entirely within Goonswarm, and any lesser empire business is conducted through alts. I'm considering starting several ventures open outside of goonswarm, but I'm not sure how feasible it is considering our notoriety. So I have some questions for you, the MD community, that I hope you will answer for me. Would you consider investing in an openly Goon business? I say "openly" because running ventures through alts is not hugely problematic, but it's something I'd rather not do. If so, would you demand additional safety measures in order to invest? What kinds of safety measures? Please, practical suggestions only. I can not run everything out of chribba's wallet.
Richard Kitan United Space Republic Research	Posted - 2008.05.05 13:14:00 - [3] Originally by: Haakkon Would you consider investing in an openly Goon business? I say "openly" because running ventures through alts is not hugely problematic, but it's something I'd rather not do. Speaking only for myself; No way, no how. -- Richard Kitan Builder of Stuff
cosmoray	Posted - 2008.05.05 13:27:00 - [4] I don't think any member of Goonswarm will get a successful IPO off the ground in MD. So I assume plan B will be rolled out, that ALTS of GS members may try. I would advise that IF GS members want to launch a business, it will have to be completed via a collateralized loan from a bank or similar institution. On a side note, I have noticed that you have suddenly been posting in many of the threads in this forum. One piece of advice you can not build an MD rep in a week!
Haakkon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 13:32:00 - [5] Edited by: Haakkon on 05/05/2008 13:33:52 Originally by: cosmoray On a side note, I have noticed that you have suddenly been posting in many of the threads in this forum. One piece of advice you can not build an MD rep in a week! Yep. I know. Truth be told I didn't even know this forum existed until I heard about the RSKY stuff. It looks pretty interesting though, and I get bored at work, so I post. Any sort of non-goon financial venture I run will be no sooner than several months from now. Right now I'm just trying to gauge what kinds of obstacles stand in my way for this. Edit: Currently I've got my hands full with another IPO (that is limited to within goonswarm), so I don't anticipate wanting or needing any more investment for the near future.
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.05.05 13:36:00 - [6] I think you have more chances with nameless alt tbh. Your alliance is building certain image for quite some time and this image is not compatible with public money. However, if you could get someone trustable (non GS) to vouch for you, I would consider the investment. 100% security is another way, but useless for you.
Haakkon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 13:41:00 - [7] Originally by: Robacz I think you have more chances with nameless alt tbh. Your alliance is building certain image for quite some time and this image is not compatible with public money. This is sadly true. I love playing internet spaceships with goons, but sometimes it's really annoying. Originally by: Robacz However, if you could get someone trustable (non GS) to vouch for you, I would consider the investment. Who would fit this bill? Originally by: Robacz 100% security is another way, but useless for you. How would 100% even be possible?
Sophie Daigneau Risky Advanced Production Enterprises GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 13:46:00 - [8] Originally by: Robacz I think you have more chances with nameless alt tbh. Your alliance is building certain image for quite some time and this image is not compatible with public money. However, if you could get someone trustable (non GS) to vouch for you, I would consider the investment. 100% security is another way, but useless for you. Not to sidetrack the lively discussion in my other thread, but you are saying that I had gotten a trusted representative from MD to thoroughly audit my corporate information, and then posted my results via a shell corp on a non-goon affiliated alt, then you might invest in me? As for the 100% security, as far as I can tell, the recent IPO done by Proton Power(sorry for dragging you into this btw) also does not have any security built into it.
cosmoray	Posted - 2008.05.05 13:48:00 - [9] This can be completed via a loan froma bank or private lender. You can also provide collateral when you launch an IPO, and if it fails the holders/trustees will liquidate the collateral and disperse the money to the shareholders. You put up collateral with a trusted party (Ebank is good), and you pay interest on your loan or dividends for IPO's. When debt is paid or IPO closes you get collateral back. You will raise the money quickly if you provide over 100% collateral. You will get less money if partial collateral is provided. You will also have to pay higher returns for zero collateral, and probably a premium for being in GS. As a guess, a GS IPO will require at least 80% collateral and a return exceeding 8% per month. Most people will probably only except 100-125% though. You have been warned!
cosmoray	Posted - 2008.05.05 14:00:00 - [10] Originally by: Sophie Daigneau Originally by: Robacz I think you have more chances with nameless alt tbh. Your alliance is building certain image for quite some time and this image is not compatible with public money. However, if you could get someone trustable (non GS) to vouch for you, I would consider the investment. 100% security is another way, but useless for you. Not to sidetrack the lively discussion in my other thread, but you are saying that I had gotten a trusted representative from MD to thoroughly audit my corporate information, and then posted my results via a shell corp on a non-goon affiliated alt, then you might invest in me? As for the 100% security, as far as I can tell, the recent IPO done by Proton Power(sorry for dragging you into this btw) also does not have any security built into it. That is simply because Proton Power has a great reputation, and that can be worth a lot. People are willing to invest into a person with a proven track record, who doesn't scam, who pays returns. Sceondly the shell corp route might work, but you still need to find someone who audits you that "WE" accept. If they make the wrong call they are ruined. You may find auditors hard to come by. An auditor will want keys to all ALTS and mains, so the GS allegiance will come out. IMO, an non-audited, no-rep, unknown "SHOULD" never again raise about more than 2-5B (no collateral) on these forums due to the vast amount of scams. This forum works hard to find ANY issues with potential IPO's, and non answering of questions, surly attitude will kill any IPO in 2 secs.
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.05.05 14:23:00 - [11] Edited by: Robacz on 05/05/2008 14:25:04 Originally by: Sophie Daigneau Not to sidetrack the lively discussion in my other thread, but you are saying that I had gotten a trusted representative from MD to thoroughly audit my corporate information, and then posted my results via a shell corp on a non-goon affiliated alt, then you might invest in me? I meant someone with good reputation vouching for you. If this someone came here and said: "I know Sophie, she is trustable business(wo)man and I doubt she would ever scam.", then I would probably invest. Who should be that person? Well, it hasn't be MD regular, but it should be someone who has my trust or at least respect... you mentioned Proton, so lets use him as example - if he said the above, I would most likely invest. Audits are nice, but they only prove that your business exists, besides I am much more interested in IPO holder's personality than his accounting. Originally by: Sophie Daigneau As for the 100% security, as far as I can tell, the recent IPO done by Proton Power(sorry for dragging you into this btw) also does not have any security built into it. PP has great history of successful businesses, besides I did some trades with him even before IPOs came to scene. I know he can make money and (based on my past experience) I don't believe he would scam. Thats enough for me to risk few billions.
cosmoray	Posted - 2008.05.05 15:23:00 - [12] I have changed my mind about this. At present a GS member has about 5% chance of raising any ISk via the MD forum. If Sophie doesn't provide some more proof that her business is legitimate, then GS IPO's will be ABSOLUTELY dead here.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.05 15:30:00 - [13] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 05/05/2008 15:35:16 Originally by: cosmoray I have changed my mind about this. At present a GS member has about 5% chance of raising any ISk via the MD forum. If Sophie doesn't provide some more proof that her business is legitimate, then GS IPO's will be ABSOLUTELY dead here. 5%? No more, no less? I am impressed. You have a curious nature Cosmo and the thought that there is a slim chance of you being intelligent causes you to overwork yourself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs_LeeWuXN8 I have stumbled across a nice video in which a guy is lured into thinking he could join GS only to have his carrier ganked upon warping to cyno.
Haakkon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 15:39:00 - [14] Originally by: cosmoray I have changed my mind about this. At present a GS member has about 5% chance of raising any ISk via the MD forum. If Sophie doesn't provide some more proof that her business is legitimate, then GS IPO's will be ABSOLUTELY dead here. I feel certain that at some point Sophie will earn your trust. He's pretty personable and very sharp. He was instrumental in helping me get my goon IPO going. I'm not really sure what I have in mind yet for public investments. Most of my business is very Goon-service-oriented, so I'm not sure how much the average Eve player would be interested in it. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by me.
Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 15:51:00 - [15] The only way a business can have GS involved is if the business is almost entirely independent of GS, and just has GS as a supplier. For example, if the IPO is a reaction chain, then that reaction chain would have to be in the business that's IPO'd and set up in an empire lowsec system, NOT in GS-sov 0.0 space. However, GS moon goo can be shipped to the IPO as a supplier and then the involvement of GS is limited to one aspect. This also means the IPO can then choose other suppliers for it's moon goo and cut out GS if it so pleases. Either way, the IPO cannot use the GS name in any name other than just a supplier. And if you're unwilling to prove to MD that you wish to disassociate yourself, MD would be unwilling to invest in you. As far as GS works as an internal economy that is fine, but keep it internal. The minute you want public outside ISK flowing in, then you have to be independent. Think of becoming independent as a gesture to MD to gain trust. Director \| www.eve-bank.net
Sophie Daigneau Risky Advanced Production Enterprises GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 16:07:00 - [16] Originally by: Mr Horizontal The only way a business can have GS involved is if the business is almost entirely independent of GS, and just has GS as a supplier. For example, if the IPO is a reaction chain, then that reaction chain would have to be in the business that's IPO'd and set up in an empire lowsec system, NOT in GS-sov 0.0 space. However, GS moon goo can be shipped to the IPO as a supplier and then the involvement of GS is limited to one aspect. This also means the IPO can then choose other suppliers for it's moon goo and cut out GS if it so pleases. Either way, the IPO cannot use the GS name in any name other than just a supplier. And if you're unwilling to prove to MD that you wish to disassociate yourself, MD would be unwilling to invest in you. As far as GS works as an internal economy that is fine, but keep it internal. The minute you want public outside ISK flowing in, then you have to be independent. Think of becoming independent as a gesture to MD to gain trust. From a business perspective, what you propose is ludicrous. GS lets my mine their moons for a modest rental fee. GS space is also relatively peaceful outside the main warzones. Doing the reactions in 0.0 where I'm mining the raws makes a lot of sense since I save on towers and logistics nightmares of multi-system chains. I'm a proud member of GS and have no qualms posting with my main. You will not see me dissociate myself in anyway from GS. GS has a large and vibrant market, one that has many opportunities to exploit. By ignoring this market this community is losing out on some of the best returns for your isk around.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.05.05 16:07:00 - [17] If it depends on the stability of GS internal politics in any substantial way, I doubt many people are going to be interested. If you can provide a decent level of collateral, you won't have problems finding investors. Ideally, get a 3rd party audit done (preferably via api keys) and go into as much detail as you can when describing your plans to the auditor (who need not disclose any commercially sensitive data, but can then report on the perceived viability of the plan). I'm busy at the moment, but I'm sure there are plenty of other people who'd be happy to do this. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Daallie Dynasty Corporation Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 16:17:00 - [18] I would have to agree with Robacz on this. You would do much better using an alt. Simply building up your alts reputation here and you are looking at a higher likelyhood of a possible IPO. But quite honestly trying from some kind of loan from a bank would be much more likely than raising money here, given that would also require that you provide 100% collateral at least (collateral is nice on MD but not an IPO requirement, just a recommendation). But ya GS reputation is kind of in the gutter...for the kind of stuff that ripped posted (video). Dynasty Corporation
Brisco Smiley Peppermint Bay Trading Company	Posted - 2008.05.05 16:30:00 - [19] Personally, I would expect money laundering to produce the best results. Anyone aware of the goon mission would not invest in even an apparently sound business which flew the goon flag. An obvious alt would likely be treated without prejudice (requiring only collateral sufficient for an unknown character). A sophisticated investors would find out it was a goon in sheep's clothing, but would also know that true goons scam for the drama, not for the isk. I expect the GoonSwarm brand cannot be anything but a liability in this forum. I do think, though, that an alt with backing ignoti et quasi occulti could get a fair shake. Cheers, Brisco Smiley
SencneS Amarr Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2008.05.05 17:10:00 - [20] For me this comes down to what the alliance represents. GS has made no bones about doing things the directly effect the industrial side of EVE. Gank Freighters, go on HULK killing rampages etc. Although you could say they are promoting ship sales, this is a direct slap in the face by a big openly abrasive alliance. Even if you didn't do any of those and all you did was supply WCS's to the fleets you're personal image is directly effected by your association with a not so reputable alliance. Like someone said "I think you'd have a better chance with a nameless faceless alt. You have a hard road ahead of you, but if you take the trip you'd become one of the more trusting figures in the public. The reason, because against all odds and adversaries you grained the trust and respect of people outside of your alliance affiliation. Do that and people will throw ISK at you when you mention the words, New IPO. Amarr for Life
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.05.05 17:13:00 - [21] I might depending on the venture and having ebank handle the funds so one of the directors can act as an auditor.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.05 17:15:00 - [22] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 05/05/2008 17:17:24 Originally by: Kazzac Elentria I might depending on the venture and having ebank handle the funds so one of the directors can act as an auditor. Post with your main or don't post at all.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.05.05 17:17:00 - [23] Originally by: YouGotRipped Originally by: Kazzac Elentria I might depending on the venture and having ebank handle the funds so one of the directors can act as an auditor. Post with your main or don't post at all. Better to remain silent and look like a fool, then open your mouth and remove all doubt.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.05 17:20:00 - [24] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: YouGotRipped Originally by: Kazzac Elentria I might depending on the venture and having ebank handle the funds so one of the directors can act as an auditor. Post with your main or don't post at all. Better to remain silent and look like a fool, then open your mouth and remove all doubt. Then how about you check certain things in your forum settings?
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.05.05 17:24:00 - [25] Originally by: YouGotRipped Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: YouGotRipped Originally by: Kazzac Elentria I might depending on the venture and having ebank handle the funds so one of the directors can act as an auditor. Post with your main or don't post at all. Better to remain silent and look like a fool, then open your mouth and remove all doubt. Then how about you check certain things in your forum settings? No... Any information you might want could easily be found by doing a few simple searches in game anyway and viewing my post history... I swear... you'd think you have to fill out a damn credit application just to post around here sometimes.
Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 18:20:00 - [26] Originally by: Sophie Daigneau From a business perspective, what you propose is ludicrous. GS lets my mine their moons for a modest rental fee. GS space is also relatively peaceful outside the main warzones. Doing the reactions in 0.0 where I'm mining the raws makes a lot of sense since I save on towers and logistics nightmares of multi-system chains. I'm a proud member of GS and have no qualms posting with my main. You will not see me dissociate myself in anyway from GS. GS has a large and vibrant market, one that has many opportunities to exploit. By ignoring this market this community is losing out on some of the best returns for your isk around. It's not ludicrous because I know of 4 other 30+ faction tower reaction chains doing precisely as I mentioned, some with and some without outpost POS's in 0.0 mining the goo. Either way, the main reactions are all done in lowsec and sold close by in empire. Some then further use these to make components and T2 items and resell the items back in the 0.0 thus maintaining the market out there, but this is a secondary business to the main reaction chain. And their profits make RSKY's look like a joke. You should be looking at ~30% total income in relation to your outlay, per month. The savings in fuel you have under sovereignty is the only benefit you have by staying 0.0, but these are so negligible that when factored into the whole return of the operation they are less than 1%. Especially as you can mine the ice out there or hire miners out there for sub-empire prices and ship it out to fuel your empire towers. Thus making the sov fuel bonus more irrelevant. As for the logistics - whether you're getting the raw material or the processed material out of 0.0 and into empire, it's the same proposition. Given your fleet of Jump Freighters this really shouldn't be a problem for you. Unless of course, you're selling the advanced materials within GS markets, in which case you're shooting yourself in your own foot by not making as much profit as you can. Last but not least, you may think the space is relatively peaceful, but then again so is just about all 0.0 space outside the main throttle points. That's not the point, the risk of GS space being overcome (not nearly as hard as you might think), internal shenanigans happening within GS (highly likely), and the fact that the 0.0 political map can change in a matter of days means that without having a secure plan to minimise any loss to investors gives us 0 security on our cash. So from a business perspective, this can't even be classified as high risk, it's off the scale! And without any backup plan should the POS's or space be attacked, investor cash will be lost. Nothing can mitigate this, and therefore by having the POS's in 0.0 it's uninvestable. Is that really worth it? The point is it's not just about GS being the sov-owning entity, it's the fact you have your reaction chains in 0.0 in the first place that's the problem. Not even the most trustworthy alliance with full sov 4 can be invested into if this is the case. What I'm trying to say is your allegiance to GS should be utterly irrelevant wrt RSKY other than for you being able negotiate getting raw moon goo out. That's all. Director \| www.eve-bank.net
Haakkon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 18:31:00 - [27] Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 05/05/2008 17:17:24 Originally by: Kazzac Elentria I might depending on the venture and having ebank handle the funds so one of the directors can act as an auditor. Post with your main or don't post at all. I find this extremely ironic as I'm posting with my main and I was told to come back with an alt. I find 0.0 to be a good forum for producing as it gives me a dread fleet to protect my investments, Sov 4 systems to react in, and a market with sell prices already higher than Jita. Internal goon politics are more stable than you would think.
Sophie Daigneau Risky Advanced Production Enterprises GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 18:38:00 - [28] Originally by: Mr Horizontal Originally by: Sophie Daigneau From a business perspective, what you propose is ludicrous. GS lets my mine their moons for a modest rental fee. GS space is also relatively peaceful outside the main warzones. Doing the reactions in 0.0 where I'm mining the raws makes a lot of sense since I save on towers and logistics nightmares of multi-system chains. I'm a proud member of GS and have no qualms posting with my main. You will not see me dissociate myself in anyway from GS. GS has a large and vibrant market, one that has many opportunities to exploit. By ignoring this market this community is losing out on some of the best returns for your isk around. It's not ludicrous because I know of 4 other 30+ faction tower reaction chains doing precisely as I mentioned, some with and some without outpost POS's in 0.0 mining the goo. Either way, the main reactions are all done in lowsec and sold close by in empire. Some then further use these to make components and T2 items and resell the items back in the 0.0 thus maintaining the market out there, but this is a secondary business to the main reaction chain. And their profits make RSKY's look like a joke. You should be looking at ~30% total income in relation to your outlay, per month. The savings in fuel you have under sovereignty is the only benefit you have by staying 0.0, but these are so negligible that when factored into the whole return of the operation they are less than 1%. Especially as you can mine the ice out there or hire miners out there for sub-empire prices and ship it out to fuel your empire towers. Thus making the sov fuel bonus more irrelevant. As for the logistics - whether you're getting the raw material or the processed material out of 0.0 and into empire, it's the same proposition. Given your fleet of Jump Freighters this really shouldn't be a problem for you. Unless of course, you're selling the advanced materials within GS markets, in which case you're shooting yourself in your own foot by not making as much profit as you can. Last but not least, you may think the space is relatively peaceful, but then again so is just about all 0.0 space outside the main throttle points. That's not the point, the risk of GS space being overcome (not nearly as hard as you might think), internal shenanigans happening within GS (highly likely), and the fact that the 0.0 political map can change in a matter of days means that without having a secure plan to minimise any loss to investors gives us 0 security on our cash. So from a business perspective, this can't even be classified as high risk, it's off the scale! And without any backup plan should the POS's or space be attacked, investor cash will be lost. Nothing can mitigate this, and therefore by having the POS's in 0.0 it's uninvestable. Is that really worth it? The point is it's not just about GS being the sov-owning entity, it's the fact you have your reaction chains in 0.0 in the first place that's the problem. Not even the most trustworthy alliance with full sov 4 can be invested into if this is the case. What I'm trying to say is your allegiance to GS should be utterly irrelevant wrt RSKY other than for you being able negotiate getting raw moon goo out. That's all. Now I know...what it is....to be...trolled.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.05.05 18:47:00 - [29] Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 05/05/2008 17:17:24 Originally by: Kazzac Elentria I might depending on the venture and having ebank handle the funds so one of the directors can act as an auditor. Post with your main or don't post at all. Kazzac has posted on these forums since long before you or your original character did. The fact that you don't know that makes it even more ironic for you to post what you did.
Brisco Smiley Peppermint Bay Trading Company	Posted - 2008.05.05 19:28:00 - [30] Originally by: Haakkon I find this extremely ironic as I'm posting with my main and I was told to come back with an alt. Though I hope that having come first with your main, you would start with at least that in your favor. I believe there are already some well respected business-people whose alter-egos are widely known but never mentioned. Let me restate my opinion. If you seek credit based on the reputation of your alliance, you may find your alliance's reputation ill-suited to requesting public funds. If you seek credit based on your personal reputation alone, you may find it easier to to run an apolitical venture without such a well-known, political moniker beneath your portrait. Cheers, Brisco Smiley
Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 19:44:00 - [31] Originally by: Sophie Daigneau Now I know...what it is....to be...trolled. That's a first. As a result I can only conclude you have no intention of protecting investors ISK and thus it's more than likely we'd never see it again. Therefore, I call scam. Good bye. Director \| www.eve-bank.net
Takimi Star	Posted - 2008.05.05 19:54:00 - [32] I am probably going to be torn a new one for this, but since I am new, can someone explain to me what is so bad about someone having a GS tag that would make them have almost zero chance of getting an IPO off the ground?
Brisco Smiley Peppermint Bay Trading Company	Posted - 2008.05.05 20:06:00 - [33] Originally by: Takimi Star I am probably going to be torn a new one for this, but since I am new, can someone explain to me what is so bad about someone having a GS tag that would make them have almost zero chance of getting an IPO off the ground? It's not a bad tag, it's just very specific. It has a purpose, and that purpose is not "play nice."
Nielas	Posted - 2008.05.05 20:16:00 - [34] Originally by: Takimi Star I am probably going to be torn a new one for this, but since I am new, can someone explain to me what is so bad about someone having a GS tag that would make them have almost zero chance of getting an IPO off the ground? Anyone investing in an IPO has to trust that the person doing the IPO will not simply run off with the money. GS has a reputation of 'not playing fair' and of running scams. As such the 'credit rating' of anyone associated with them is pretty much in the toilet.
Kis Kecheri	Posted - 2008.05.05 20:17:00 - [35] Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 05/05/2008 20:19:48 Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 05/05/2008 20:18:25 Originally by: Takimi Star I am probably going to be torn a new one for this, but since I am new, can someone explain to me what is so bad about someone having a GS tag that would make them have almost zero chance of getting an IPO off the ground? Feel free to join any public channel, like say, recruitment, and you will find multiple goons baiting people into scams. Search for goon scams on this forum and wade through the chapters of goons not only openly admitting to scams but encouraging it amongst their members. If you need a more dramatic example of their treatment of people who are stupid enough to trust them, watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs_LeeWuXN8
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.05 20:21:00 - [36] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 05/05/2008 20:24:52 Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 05/05/2008 17:17:24 Originally by: Kazzac Elentria I might depending on the venture and having ebank handle the funds so one of the directors can act as an auditor. Post with your main or don't post at all. Kazzac has posted on these forums since long before you or your original character did. The fact that you don't know that makes it even more ironic for you to post what you did. Lol, how could I possibly know that? Goddamn I should have allocated more time to developing my clairvoyance skills if not reading past eve posts for breakfast. One thing is sure though, he doesn't share your appetite for posting in every meaningless thread. cellar - the lowest grade or rank
Zhecao Vai Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 20:29:00 - [37] Originally by: Mr Horizontal What I'm trying to say is your allegiance to GS should be utterly irrelevant wrt RSKY other than for you being able negotiate getting raw moon goo out. That's all. I agree with that, and as for the rest of your post, aren't you making lots of funny assumptions? How do you have any idea how stable or unstable Goonswarm "internal politics" are? Of course, a moon-mining chain in 0.0 is risky, but that's why they're targeting (and approaching) 15% return, which is a lot more than pretty much any other IPOs I've ever seen around here.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.05.05 20:30:00 - [38] Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 05/05/2008 20:24:52 Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 05/05/2008 17:17:24 Originally by: Kazzac Elentria I might depending on the venture and having ebank handle the funds so one of the directors can act as an auditor. Post with your main or don't post at all. Kazzac has posted on these forums since long before you or your original character did. The fact that you don't know that makes it even more ironic for you to post what you did. Lol, how could I possibly know that? Goddamn I should have allocated more time to developing my clairvoyance skills if not reading past eve posts for breakfast. One thing is sure though, he doesn't share your appetite for posting in every meaningless thread. And yet despite that fact he still has more digestible and meaningful content than you. ...fancy that
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.05 20:37:00 - [39] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 05/05/2008 20:44:16 Originally by: Kazzac Elentria And yet despite that fact he still has more digestible and meaningful content than you. ...fancy that Yes, it takes a certain mindset to enjoy what Shadarle posts. I cannot lower myself to that. cellar - the lowest grade or rank
Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 21:00:00 - [40] Originally by: Zhecao Vai I agree with that, and as for the rest of your post, aren't you making lots of funny assumptions? Not really, after engineering the financing for similar operations, I'd say I'm pretty spot on. Originally by: Zhecao Vai How do you have any idea how stable or unstable Goonswarm "internal politics" are? Because if I didn't it wouldn't be too wise an idea to fly with them? You might want to check my alliance, I'm pretty cool with Goons as a player, but as an industrialist I'm not. Originally by: Zhecao Vai Of course, a moon-mining chain in 0.0 is risky, but that's why they're targeting (and approaching) 15% return, which is a lot more than pretty much any other IPOs I've ever seen around here. The point I was trying to make is that for a lot more trustworthy alliances than GS, they've not set up their chains in 0.0. So for GS to do it in light of this, is absurd. And, yes, while 15% while a good figure to promise, it makes no odds whether it's in 0.0 or lowsec, given the operations I've engineered turnover double that. Director \| www.eve-bank.net
Qaedienne	Posted - 2008.05.05 21:04:00 - [41] "Would you consider investing in an openly Goon business? I say "openly" because running ventures through alts is not hugely problematic, but it's something I'd rather not do." No. Now, a question for you: Is there any practical reason for a non-Goon to invest in Goons?
Haakkon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 21:14:00 - [42] Originally by: Qaedienne "Would you consider investing in an openly Goon business? I say "openly" because running ventures through alts is not hugely problematic, but it's something I'd rather not do." No. Now, a question for you: Is there any practical reason for a non-Goon to invest in Goons? Yes, the same reasons one would invest in any business run by anyone else: profits.
Qaedienne	Posted - 2008.05.05 21:40:00 - [43] Originally by: Haakkon Originally by: Qaedienne "Would you consider investing in an openly Goon business? I say "openly" because running ventures through alts is not hugely problematic, but it's something I'd rather not do." No. Now, a question for you: Is there any practical reason for a non-Goon to invest in Goons? Yes, the same reasons one would invest in any business run by anyone else: profits. You're not any other business. You are probably a scammer, and even if you aren't, the products you produce will be used by scammers. So, what are you selling that overcomes that? You don't come across as a serious business person when you refuse to even consider the main issue that will keep people from investing in your business, let alone propose a solution to it.
Thoran Karlien Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 22:02:00 - [44] Would you accept investments from bob members? Knowing that the money you give them back will be used to further their war against you? While I am certainly not a fan of quite a lot goon poster, there are a few that I'd trust their word at least in a specific area of their expertise. So build up your reputation. Start a very small ipo, like building and selling shuttles in a goon outpost, don't cover it 100% with your money, and don't promise too good returns... have an independant trustworthy resident from md check your ipo, also while it is running. Next go for a bit higher, but don't expect billions... You will have a long road ahead, until people trust you enough to invest some worthwhile isk into you... And another question... everyone can be brought... so how much isk would need to be trusted to you, for you to scam everyone and run with the isk? ____________________________ Whine : The only FOTM than never gets nerved or out of style!
Zhecao Vai Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 22:07:00 - [45] Originally by: Qaedienne You're not any other business. You are probably a scammer, and even if you aren't, the products you produce will be used by scammers. So, what are you selling that overcomes that? You don't come across as a serious business person when you refuse to even consider the main issue that will keep people from investing in your business, let alone propose a solution to it. You are probably a homosexual, and even if you aren't, the products you produce may be used by homosexuals. So, what are you selling that overcomes such an awful thing? Well, I sure hope you consider this major issue keeping me from investing in your business! Thanks in advance!
Thoran Karlien Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 22:13:00 - [46] Originally by: Zhecao Vai You are probably a homosexual, and even if you aren't, the products you produce may be used by homosexuals. So, what are you selling that overcomes such an awful thing? If you try to help the op you are not doing it... if you try to be a typical goon poster as percieved by many you fail too... much too many words... ____________________________ Whine : The only FOTM than never gets nerved or out of style!
Qaedienne	Posted - 2008.05.05 22:14:00 - [47] Originally by: Zhecao Vai Originally by: Qaedienne You're not any other business. You are probably a scammer, and even if you aren't, the products you produce will be used by scammers. So, what are you selling that overcomes that? You don't come across as a serious business person when you refuse to even consider the main issue that will keep people from investing in your business, let alone propose a solution to it. You are probably a homosexual, and even if you aren't, the products you produce may be used by homosexuals. So, what are you selling that overcomes such an awful thing? Well, I sure hope you consider this major issue keeping me from investing in your business! Thanks in advance! Thanks for helping make the point.
Zhecao Vai Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 22:22:00 - [48] Originally by: Qaedienne Originally by: Zhecao Vai Originally by: Qaedienne You're not any other business. You are probably a scammer, and even if you aren't, the products you produce will be used by scammers. So, what are you selling that overcomes that? You don't come across as a serious business person when you refuse to even consider the main issue that will keep people from investing in your business, let alone propose a solution to it. You are probably a homosexual, and even if you aren't, the products you produce may be used by homosexuals. So, what are you selling that overcomes such an awful thing? Well, I sure hope you consider this major issue keeping me from investing in your business! Thanks in advance! Thanks for helping make the point. Is the point that your post is four sentences worth of name-calling? You're welcome. I was worried you wouldn't get it.
Thoran Karlien Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 22:29:00 - [49] Originally by: Zhecao Vai Is the point that your post is four sentences worth of name-calling? You're welcome. I was worried you wouldn't get it. Many think that it is exactly that name many goons try to achieve... Which shows how hart it will be for other goons trying to make themselve a diffrent name. ____________________________ Whine : The only FOTM than never gets nerved or out of style!
Haakkon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.05 22:32:00 - [50] Edited by: Haakkon on 05/05/2008 22:33:01 Originally by: Qaedienne Originally by: Haakkon Originally by: Qaedienne Now, a question for you: Is there any practical reason for a non-Goon to invest in Goons? Yes, the same reasons one would invest in any business run by anyone else: profits. You're not any other business. You are probably a scammer, and even if you aren't, the products you produce will be used by scammers. So, what are you selling that overcomes that? You don't come across as a serious business person when you refuse to even consider the main issue that will keep people from investing in your business, let alone propose a solution to it. Well, I'm not even selling anything right now. I'm just exploring the possibilities. What is the primary issue? So far, what I can tell is that most people have a problem with me being a Goon. My gooniness will not change if I come back on some unaffiliated alt, it's a part of who I am. I've been posting in the Something Awful community for a loooong time, and I don't intend to leave the friends I've made in that time. As for managing risk... I have no problems submitting to impartial third party audits should I decide to go non-goon with my investments. I believe in transparency in a business even if i'm not doing the best of jobs (and I make mistakes like every other entrepreneur). Originally by: Thoran Karlien Would you accept investments from bob members? Knowing that the money you give them back will be used to further their war against you? Yes. Originally by: Thoran Karlien So build up your reputation. Start a very small ipo, like building and selling shuttles in a goon outpost, don't cover it 100% with your money, and don't promise too good returns... have an independant trustworthy resident from md check your ipo, also while it is running. I currently run a goon-only investment company with current net assets of about 32 billion isk. Originally by: Thoran Karlien And another question... everyone can be brought... so how much isk would need to be trusted to you, for you to scam everyone and run with the isk? I feel that nothing I say will be able to reassure you. However, I currently do a lot of the logistics work for Goonfleet and could easily leave with a substantial amount of isk if I decided to. So I guess the answer to that would be "more than I'll realistically ever have in my own company"
Thoran Karlien Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.05 22:56:00 - [51] Originally by: Haakkon I feel that nothing I say will be able to reassure you. However, I currently do a lot of the logistics work for Goonfleet and could easily leave with a substantial amount of isk if I decided to. So I guess the answer to that would be "more than I'll realistically ever have in my own company" You will have to try to convince me and others that you won't scam them. That you won't scam your own alliance is generally expected. I rarely hear of goons scamming goons, but goons scamming "pubies"... ... Originally by: Haakkon Edit: Also, Zehaco - please don't post in my threads unless you have something constructive to say. That goes for anyone name calling also. If you think I'm being dumb, please call me out on it, but please don't troll my threads. Distancing yourself from trolls is a nice move. But I certainly doubt you can expect investments in the 10's of billions on the first ipo you launch. One way I can see how you could get a few people outside investing is by having a substantial amount invested from inside goonswarm and placing a check to make sure you either have to scam all, or scam none at all... although i am at a loss atm how such a check could look like. And there will still be people who won't invest no matter what, because there are some negative feelings attached to the name. But if we sell weapons in RL, why not invest in a good solid ipo if there is a profit in it? Due to your openness in discussion though, I would already "invest" up to 5 million in you, simply because I value good threads even if it turns out to be a scam. That sum can certainly rise, if you show you are trustworthy. Check DragonRiderTao for a percieved scammer who proved everyone wrong. ____________________________ Whine : The only FOTM than never gets nerved or out of style!
Kaaii Caldari PixelJuice Design Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.05.06 00:00:00 - [52] I would make it my mission in EVE, with my 5 years of play, trading expertise, and sizable resources, to utterly destroy any venture you attempt to undertake... but thats just me.. According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there. kieron Director of Community Relations,
cosmoray	Posted - 2008.05.06 00:06:00 - [53] Originally by: Zhecao Vai Originally by: Qaedienne You're not any other business. You are probably a scammer, and even if you aren't, the products you produce will be used by scammers. So, what are you selling that overcomes that? You don't come across as a serious business person when you refuse to even consider the main issue that will keep people from investing in your business, let alone propose a solution to it. You are probably a homosexual, and even if you aren't, the products you produce may be used by homosexuals. So, what are you selling that overcomes such an awful thing? Well, I sure hope you consider this major issue keeping me from investing in your business! Thanks in advance! Thanks for helping prove the point about GS reputation. Sorry to the OP and Sophie Daigneau with the other business, because the above comment has just gone to prove the fact that no one in here will ever invest ina GS business. I certainly won't now. Nothing else to say. Everyone can move along to more pressing matters!
Zhecao Vai Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 00:44:00 - [54] Hey, just one more post, which is a little more serious -- sorry, Haakkon, I don't want to bother your potential investors, but I doubt I'm making a difference. Originally by: cosmoray Sorry to the OP and Sophie Daigneau with the other business, because the above comment has just gone to prove the fact that no one in here will ever invest ina GS business. I certainly won't now. Nothing else to say. Everyone can move along to more pressing matters! This post seems to really distill the popular sentiment here, which is at the center of this post, too: Originally by: Qaedienne You're not any other business. You are probably a scammer, and even if you aren't, the products you produce will be used by scammers. So, what are you selling that overcomes that? You don't come across as a serious business person when you refuse to even consider the main issue that will keep people from investing in your business, let alone propose a solution to it. Once you look past the name-calling, here's the content: "I don't like you, and I don't like your friends. I'm not supporting you because I think you and your friends are lousy, and boy, I hope nobody else does either." There's nothing you can do to change that guy's mind, unless you and your friends collectively sit there being real nice to him and giving him presents until he likes you. There's no audits you can perform, no realistic securities you can provide, that will convince him. Folks in this thread specifically agree to take it one step further; they would literally rather you go make an alt, come back, and lie your pants off to them about who you actually are to get their money, rather than invest their money into an otherwise-solid business that is run by (or even "produces products that will be used by!") someone they don't like. That seems bizarre to me, but maybe I just value money more than some folks. In the end, the lesson I see is: For 90% of people, presentation is everything, and the only thing. I would keep that in mind if I were looking for money.
Segge Bolled Caldari Dirty Sexy Pilots New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.05.06 01:21:00 - [55] Edited by: Segge Bolled on 06/05/2008 01:22:48 Originally by: Zhecao Vai Originally by: Qaedienne You're not any other business. You are probably a scammer, and even if you aren't, the products you produce will be used by scammers. So, what are you selling that overcomes that? You don't come across as a serious business person when you refuse to even consider the main issue that will keep people from investing in your business, let alone propose a solution to it. You are probably a homosexual, and even if you aren't, the products you produce may be used by homosexuals. So, what are you selling that overcomes such an awful thing? Well, I sure hope you consider this major issue keeping me from investing in your business! Thanks in advance! Right ... anyway - The point I see here is the potential invester base does seem fairly hostile - you're not dealing with invester confidence alone, you've also got to take into account the degree of invester approval (or lack) of the "brand name" of the business (Individual operators aside, this is ultimately going to be the Goonswarm itself) and from what I can see GS isn't wildly popular outside of GS itself. In this case it'll be very much like asking a militant Green group to invest in selling brown coal to China via bulk export - simply put, many people will feel it is ... unethical? - to intentionally invest their ISK into anything that is tied into Goonswarm. To return to the original questions, 1) No. 2) Not Applicable. 3) Not Applicable.
Nebuchadnezzar I Art of War Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.06 01:54:00 - [56] Edited by: Nebuchadnezzar I on 06/05/2008 02:00:13 Considering the recruitment scams, although you legitimate them by the "they are morons not understanding to apply through official channels" - i very much doubt so. EDIT: And i guess general goon rep, doesnt help either, that rep is what you guys wanted anyway i assume and why it'd have to be a pretty risk free AND potentially very rewarding deal before i'd even considering dealing with a GS member - including ex GS really. You can use an alt fine i guess, everyone does it.
Qaedienne	Posted - 2008.05.06 03:52:00 - [57] Originally by: Zhecao Vai Hey, just one more post, which is a little more serious -- sorry, Haakkon, I don't want to bother your potential investors, but I doubt I'm making a difference. Originally by: cosmoray Sorry to the OP and Sophie Daigneau with the other business, because the above comment has just gone to prove the fact that no one in here will ever invest ina GS business. I certainly won't now. Nothing else to say. Everyone can move along to more pressing matters! This post seems to really distill the popular sentiment here, which is at the center of this post, too: Originally by: Qaedienne You're not any other business. You are probably a scammer, and even if you aren't, the products you produce will be used by scammers. So, what are you selling that overcomes that? You don't come across as a serious business person when you refuse to even consider the main issue that will keep people from investing in your business, let alone propose a solution to it. Once you look past the name-calling, here's the content: "I don't like you, and I don't like your friends. I'm not supporting you because I think you and your friends are lousy, and boy, I hope nobody else does either." There's nothing you can do to change that guy's mind, unless you and your friends collectively sit there being real nice to him and giving him presents until he likes you. There's no audits you can perform, no realistic securities you can provide, that will convince him. Folks in this thread specifically agree to take it one step further; they would literally rather you go make an alt, come back, and lie your pants off to them about who you actually are to get their money, rather than invest their money into an otherwise-solid business that is run by (or even "produces products that will be used by!") someone they don't like. That seems bizarre to me, but maybe I just value money more than some folks. In the end, the lesson I see is: For 90% of people, presentation is everything, and the only thing. I would keep that in mind if I were looking for money. Whether you realize it or not, hundreds of people have been scammed out of money by Goons. They have taken their grievances to Goon management, who said "Good." Your alliance scams, and supports scamming. Are you not aware of this? Have you not read any of the dozens of posts, BY GOONS, regarding this? It's not name calling, it is calling a spade a spade. Now, when someone from an alliance that supports scamming asks "How can I get some of that crazy IPO money?", that little ******* issue has to be addressed. By the person looking to get financing, not the people who don't want to get fleeced. It's not the MD board's job to figure out how Goons get public financing to work, it's up to Goons. And stop crying about being treated poorly for being a Goon. You're not being treated poorly, you're just being treated as a Goon.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.05.06 04:28:00 - [58] Heh, following all this I've got one thing to say. go read "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" Take particular note of the part at the end which says "Nobody believes a liar, even when he's telling the truth". In much the same way that I don't affiliate with Goonswarm and thus, remove the chance to have possibly a very enjoyable experience in 0.0, you affiliate with Goonswarm and remove the chance of ever running a successful IPO (remembering if it's kept within Goonswarm, it's still not an IPO, since it's not public). Guess what everyone is trying to say is yeah, you would have a lot better chance of taking an unknown alt and lying your ass off to get a business running. That's much less risk than publicly investing in Goonswarm. Bearing in mind that alt would be incapable of securing anything more than single-digit billions. Improve Market Competition!
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.05.06 04:31:00 - [59] Since you asked for a sensible explanation: Considering how Goons have behaved, and are behaving in EVE; the Alliance, and thus Controlling Entity, authorized and sponsored scamming - I believe that any true Goon Venture is handicapped from an honest entry into the IPO community. I would not invest into Goon Run venture, I am very conservative when it comes to spending large quantity of ISK, and I am very risk conscious, as such I do not believe Goons represent a viable risk. The only way I would invest is if I had 100% collateral in my pocket - an impossibility of course in any IPO. So, no dice for Goons. Best of Luck.
Tommy Meow	Posted - 2008.05.06 04:35:00 - [60] Originally by: Zhecao Vai Originally by: Qaedienne You're not any other business. You are probably a scammer, and even if you aren't, the products you produce will be used by scammers. So, what are you selling that overcomes that? You don't come across as a serious business person when you refuse to even consider the main issue that will keep people from investing in your business, let alone propose a solution to it. You are probably a homosexual, and even if you aren't, the products you produce may be used by homosexuals. So, what are you selling that overcomes such an awful thing? Well, I sure hope you consider this major issue keeping me from investing in your business! Thanks in advance! Bolded the "Authentic Goon" parts.... I am sure you are helping the cause of Goons everywhere, they are now completely vindicated in EVE populace eyes, and it was absurd for any of us to ever doubt that a Goon can be anything but a Goon, well done mate, well done indeed.
Qaedienne	Posted - 2008.05.06 04:55:00 - [61] "What is the primary issue? So far, what I can tell is that most people have a problem with me being a Goon. My gooniness will not change if I come back on some unaffiliated alt, it's a part of who I am. I've been posting in the Something Awful community for a loooong time, and I don't intend to leave the friends I've made in that time." Your alliance openly scams. Your loyalty to Goonswarm isn't an issue here, the scamming part is. And an unaffiliated alt would only work against you. Any public business venture of significant size will require an auditor, and the auditor would be required to report to investors if there is a heavy Goonswarm presence in the venture (assets, markets, mains, etc...) because, as I said, Goonswarm scams. If the investment community found out that Goonswarm members were seeking capital under alt characters, they'd assume the worst. "As for managing risk... I have no problems submitting to impartial third party audits should I decide to go non-goon with my investments. I believe in transparency in a business even if i'm not doing the best of jobs (and I make mistakes like every other entrepreneur). What other issues do you see with goon run business compared to a non-goon alt business?" Normally, you'd start with small investments and build up credibility, but that's not going to work in your case. People will just assume you're biding your time waiting for the big score. The only way I see GS ventures working with public capital is if someone outside GS handles the cash and assets.
SonOfAGhost Minmatar Minmatar Munitions and Tactical Assets Repository Zzz	Posted - 2008.05.06 05:04:00 - [62] Originally by: Haakkon Originally by: YouGotRipped Post with your main or don't post at all. I find this extremely ironic as I'm posting with my main and I was told to come back with an alt. Even more ironic when you realize that the torll is not just an alt, but an alt of an alt. ----- Originally by: kedoremos EVE's economy is **** for CPAs, Annuities, and Stock Brokers.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.06 09:28:00 - [63] No, it will never happen. I would rather invest in Riethe or Ufail.
Jackie Fisher	Posted - 2008.05.06 09:31:00 - [64] What's that old expression about judging a person by his friends?
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.06 10:19:00 - [65] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 06/05/2008 10:19:56 Originally by: Jackie Fisher What's that old expression about judging a person by his friends? Those that have something in common gang up? lol Tell me who your friends are so I can tell you who you are. etc
Jackie Fisher	Posted - 2008.05.06 10:38:00 - [66] Originally by: YouGotRipped Those that have something in common gang up? lol Tell me who your friends are so I can tell you who you are. etc Somebody not asking for others trust or ISK.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.06 11:10:00 - [67] Originally by: Jackie Fisher What's that old expression about judging a person by his friends? If a person cares about his name, he WOULDN'T be in goonswarm.
Riethe Fine Goods for Fine Gentlemen	Posted - 2008.05.06 11:18:00 - [68] Look, there is only one thing that needs to be said in this topic: If the business is secured 100% under EBANK, people will invest happily because most people have excess money laying around. The only small percentage of people that won't invest under these circumstances are the individuals who believe they are too good to invest in a business that is related to a large organization of people, that consist of substantially wide-spread interests. Beyond that, this thread is an unnecessary waste of attention whoring because some industrial moron thinks his corp is any more important than anyone else's. TA
Haakkon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 11:55:00 - [69] Edited by: Haakkon on 06/05/2008 11:57:04 Originally by: Riethe Look, there is only one thing that needs to be said in this topic: If the business is secured 100% under EBANK, people will invest happily because most people have excess money laying around. The only small percentage of people that won't invest under these circumstances are the individuals who believe they are too good to invest in a business that is related to a large organization of people, that consist of substantially wide-spread interests. Beyond that, this thread is an unnecessary waste of attention whoring because some industrial moron thinks his corp is any more important than anyone else's. TA I do think my corp is better than the others ;-) I enjoy being a goon thoroughly. 100% secure IPOs make very little sense to me as if I have 100%, or 120% as has been suggested, there's very little reason for me to raise outsider money. And even then, there's an issue of what the collateral secures. The success of the venture, my honesty, and so on. I'm a goon because it's a fantastic community of people to hang out with, if you're also a goon. I do not agree with my alliance's current policies on scamming. Several CEOs ago, scamming was a bannable offense because of this exact issue. I miss those times... That said, I appreciate everyone's input and I will take it into thoughtful consideration in my business ventures. I wish I could close this thread now.
Nielas	Posted - 2008.05.06 14:43:00 - [70] Scamming is really a black and white issue. You either support the scammers or you are against them. If you are against the scammers then you would not be part of a group that supports scammers.
Haakkon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 14:52:00 - [71] Edited by: Haakkon on 06/05/2008 14:52:35 Originally by: Nielas Scamming is really a black and white issue. You either support the scammers or you are against them. If you are against the scammers then you would not be part of a group that supports scammers. I view it as a very grey issue. There are downsides to being in goonswarm - repuation, lack of trust, resentment and hatred from the rest of Eve, and there are the positives - Fun, friends, I'm well established there, it's profitable. I personally don't support scammers and I think it's a shame that the greater goondom doesn't agree. I'll liken this to real life -- if your country or government does something you fervently disagree with, do you move out of the country or do you try to elicit change from within? I'm trying to do the latter. I don't think goons will ever be liked or trusted, but I do see a future where being a goon doesn't mean you're written off by the rest of the Eve community.
Tobin Shalim Vulcan Foundry	Posted - 2008.05.06 15:13:00 - [72] Edited by: Tobin Shalim on 06/05/2008 15:13:17 if Goons would provide a 15% monthly IPO, i'd invest in it. sure, it carries with it a certain inherent amount of risk that i lose all my invested isk in a scam, but really, that's true of just about every IPO that comes into existance. the risk is always there, but i'd be willing to take it to ream massive profits on thier venture. edit: i am not a Goon, have never been affiliated with Goons, am not a Goon alt.
Nielas	Posted - 2008.05.06 15:14:00 - [73] In Real Life there is a lot of grey areas. However, EVE tends to be a very black and white world. When it comes to trust you either trust someone or you do not. In the game we lack the many social tools we have in RL that allow that grey area where it comes to trust. If you trust someone in EVE you have to trust them 100% because you have no insurance in case they betray you. There is not 'social collateral' that prevents most people in RL from committing fraud. The question of identity is also severly different in EVE than it is in RL. In EVE alts and multiple accounts mean that trusting in an individual person is a toss up. They could behave completely diffent when playing their alts. You are essentially saying that people should trust YOU and not Goonswarm. However, in EVE we cannot really know who YOU are. Further you want us to trust that you exist in a grey area of Goonswarm behaviour where you support some parts of their behaviour but not others. However, in EVE we cannot actually insure that you are on the 'right' side of that grey line so we either commit one way or the other.
Kiki Arnolds Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.06 15:27:00 - [74] I have nothing against goonswarm, I find it entertaining that they were killing hulks, that they kill freightors. I think the crusade against BOB was a noble cause. Hell, I even think the way they scam is funny. When it comes to my money however, I would NEVER invest in a goon run venture (absent 100% security). Its almost impossible to detect a good scammer, you have to take every little hint and run with it. If anything flags them you stay away. Being a member of an alliance that supports scamming anyone who isn't a member is a HUGE red flag. I don't like BOB, what they do, or what they stand for. However if a member of BOB was running a reasonable IPO I would consider investing, because they domn't have a reputation for scamming etc... Investing should not be about politics, all you should consider is risk vs. reward. That is what most of the people who are saying they wouldn't invest are doing. ç¦
Haakkon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 15:39:00 - [75] Originally by: Nielas post You raise some very very excellent points and I'm afraid I don't really have a counter. Eve, though similar in many ways to RL, is not RL. It does not have the same societal pressures that enforce honesty as in Real Life. In the coming months I might crosspost earnings reports from my goon company here. Perhaps I'll need some non-goon financing in the future, in which case I'm not sure what else I can ask besides to give me a chance.
Nielas	Posted - 2008.05.06 19:25:00 - [76] Originally by: Haakkon Originally by: Nielas post You raise some very very excellent points and I'm afraid I don't really have a counter. Eve, though similar in many ways to RL, is not RL. It does not have the same societal pressures that enforce honesty as in Real Life. There is actually one 'social pressure' that still exists to a certain extent in EVE: peer pressure in a player's corp. While some people tend to jump corps on an almost daily basis, many people will develop strong social bonds within their corps that they will not risk losing. As such the strongest deterrant against questionable behaviour is in this game is that your corp will disown you. It's a highly imperfect deterrant but it is the best we have in EVE. This works against you in that with Goonswarm's reputation for allowing scammers, even that slim protection is removed.
Segge Bolled Caldari Dirty Sexy Pilots New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.05.07 00:56:00 - [77] I think Nielas has made yet another excellent point. My own question for Haakkon is this: Originally by: Haakkon In the coming months I might crosspost earnings reports from my goon company here. What exactly do you really hope to realistically achieve by doing that? I would have thought that you'd just run into the exact same situation as Sophie in that other thread, to which this one is somewhat related.
Haakkon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.07 04:55:00 - [78] Edited by: Haakkon on 07/05/2008 04:58:22 Originally by: Segge Bolled I think Nielas has made yet another excellent point. My own question for Haakkon is this: Originally by: Haakkon In the coming months I might crosspost earnings reports from my goon company here. What exactly do you really hope to realistically achieve by doing that? I would have thought that you'd just run into the exact same situation as Sophie in that other thread, to which this one is somewhat related. I expect to be met with skepticism, denial, and potentially some mockery. But weve got to start somewhere. And even if we're derided as scam artists or what-have-you, I feel that this is a start in the right direction, and i hope to pursue it in the face of whatever adversity I may face. Basically, my goal here isn't investment capital (currently goon isk has me well stocked). My goal is to have reasonable, non-trolling conversation with the greater business community. I hope to learn a thing or two about how everyone else works, and while I'm at it, hopefully provide a little bit of insight into Goon culture and perhaps show you that not every single one of us is cold-hearted and evil.
Segge Bolled Caldari Dirty Sexy Pilots New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.05.07 06:30:00 - [79] Edited by: Segge Bolled on 07/05/2008 06:31:03 Well, while that sounds a fair enough ideal to reason for it, I think you'll find that enough of you are indeed "cold-hearted and evil" (and known for it) to the point you'll fail miserably in most of those ambitions. Just, you know, saying. Good luck with it, though. You're going to need it ...
Roger Welco Caldari WhiteGlaze Interstellar Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.07 09:45:00 - [80] As a poster has already said, any investment carries risk. From my point of view from any IPO that is put up I will take a look at a weigh up the pros and cons of it. Sure a Goon related IPO, may have more risk from the reputation that they have in eve, but it may be still worth the investment like any other IPO. Also like any other IPO the isk I invest would be a risk, and if I lose one that I would take a hit on, but not one that would hurt that much. Never invest more then you can afford to lose. And besides it be nice to get some isk back from back from them to cover the loss of ships due to them
Fivel Ve	Posted - 2008.05.07 12:08:00 - [81] No i would never invest in any goon unless i personally knew him/her. The reason being is that members of GS do not really care about their reputations as has been proven on many occasions. They also have this in-group culture that leads them feel superior to other players in EVE who are not part of GS. This does not apply to all members I bet, however it's the majority. Since there is a great chance that you, a random goon that i do not know, are a part of this majority that has been scamming "pubbies" and even making vids of it and not caring for their rep i seriously see no reason to trust you.
Imperius Blackheart Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.07 12:33:00 - [82] Heh, funny thread this. I've resisted posting until now, but unlike most i'd probably give Haakkon a chance. When I made my first investment in eve IIRC it was in ISS or FIN and I only invested a couple of hundred million to begin with, once trust had build up I became more confident and now hold tens of billions in shares and bonds in both public and private corps. I'd probably start small in any investments run by goons but I wouldn't avoid it totally. Like it or not Goons are a massive powerhouse in this game, and have their shadier elements but its not like its a secret, and could it really be different than ISS was when it comes to politics? :P It would depend on how serious the goon running the IPO would be I've met and known stupid goons silly goons and smart "serious business" goons, it would take time to build up trust in the marketplace and the name would be a stumbling block for many, however running several smaller bonds/projects to build up the trust to run a big one might work. I think that the investor market for the most part in Eve is hungry for more businesses to put their money into, I know I am, and any goon run project would have the benefit that competition atm is pretty none existent. tl;dr version : Yes i'd invest in a goon business probably ~500 million or so to begin with until trust is build up. Would need a "serious business" goon.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company	Posted - 2008.05.07 22:21:00 - [83] Haakkon, I just wanted to publicly thank you for carrying over the discussion I was trying to start in the other thread, and running with it. I think that the opinions of the different viewpoints have been made clear at this point, some quite valid, and others ridiculously extreme. I've learned a lot from this thread, hopefully someone else can say the same too.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.07 22:46:00 - [84] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 07/05/2008 23:22:48 It was a pointless thread, we knew certain things all too well. However someone's got a lot of nerve to ask for a confirmation.
Timaios Art of War Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.08 11:09:00 - [85] Originally by: Haakkon 100% secure IPOs make very little sense to me as if I have 100%, or 120% as has been suggested, there's very little reason for me to raise outsider money. And even then, there's an issue of what the collateral secures. The success of the venture, my honesty, and so on. <snip> That said, I appreciate everyone's input and I will take it into thoughtful consideration in my business ventures. The only reason I could see for 100% secure IPO would be establishing yourself as a reliable entrepreneur. Naturally after one successful IPO you might be able to launch a new one with perhaps 50% security and slowly build up the reputation to a point where the ISK paid out by previous IPOs exceed the value of the new IPO you are going to launch - meaning that if you are a scammer and want to run away with the money, you'd have done better (ISK-wise) by not making public IPOs in the first place. That said, with proper 3rd party supervision I might be tempted to invest a small amount of ISK into a goon-run IPO. (I've been shooting and been shot at by goons since 2006 when they took Scalding Pass, mind.)
Haakkon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.08 12:11:00 - [86] Originally by: Timaios Originally by: Haakkon 100% secure IPOs make very little sense to me as if I have 100%, or 120% as has been suggested, there's very little reason for me to raise outsider money. And even then, there's an issue of what the collateral secures. The success of the venture, my honesty, and so on. <snip> That said, I appreciate everyone's input and I will take it into thoughtful consideration in my business ventures. The only reason I could see for 100% secure IPO would be establishing yourself as a reliable entrepreneur. Naturally after one successful IPO you might be able to launch a new one with perhaps 50% security and slowly build up the reputation to a point where the ISK paid out by previous IPOs exceed the value of the new IPO you are going to launch - meaning that if you are a scammer and want to run away with the money, you'd have done better (ISK-wise) by not making public IPOs in the first place. That said, with proper 3rd party supervision I might be tempted to invest a small amount of ISK into a goon-run IPO. (I've been shooting and been shot at by goons since 2006 when they took Scalding Pass, mind.) I love Scalding Pass :-) But PvP aside (I love PvP), I'm not looking for investment right now, just some conversation and Dialogue. Sophie's RSKY venture though has me very interested, and currently outperforms my company by a large margin. If anyone sells RSKY shares on the open market, they're probably a good buy as long as the seller isn't just trying to scam you.
Idaeus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.10 12:40:00 - [87] Originally by: Timaios That said, with proper 3rd party supervision I might be tempted to invest a small amount of ISK into a goon-run IPO. (I've been shooting and been shot at by goons since 2006 when they took Scalding Pass, mind.) You know what's funny? Best way to insure that anything of this nature is NOT a scam is to get other goons (or our allies) to invest in it. We have rules against scamming goons and blues, and practically all of us genuinely enjoy GoonFleet, so the chances of someone going **** goons over spacebux is very slim. (I'd wager the chances of it happening are actually less then other public investments.)
Nielas	Posted - 2008.05.10 15:49:00 - [88] Originally by: Idaeus Originally by: Timaios That said, with proper 3rd party supervision I might be tempted to invest a small amount of ISK into a goon-run IPO. (I've been shooting and been shot at by goons since 2006 when they took Scalding Pass, mind.) You know what's funny? Best way to insure that anything of this nature is NOT a scam is to get other goons (or our allies) to invest in it. We have rules against scamming goons and blues, and practically all of us genuinely enjoy GoonFleet, so the chances of someone going **** goons over spacebux is very slim. (I'd wager the chances of it happening are actually less then other public investments.) Yeah but what if all you goons are in on the scam? So if the IPO is a scam you are only scamming outsiders and inter-Goonfleet rules do not apply. In the end it still boils down to whether an investor will use 'guilt by association' as a factor in their risk assessment.
Idaeus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.10 16:18:00 - [89] Getting laughs at the expense of others is a short lived joy. Getting space rich, buying expensive toys and blowing people up is a long term joy.
Ortos Abyssus Incendia THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.10 18:39:00 - [90] I'm not really much of an investor, but if I were to invest. Im sorry, it would not be in anything affiliated with the word goon or swarm. Especially not a combination of the two. It cant be that hard to find money within goonswarm can it?
mynnna Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.12 21:00:00 - [91] Originally by: Ortos I'm not really much of an investor, but if I were to invest. Im sorry, it would not be in anything affiliated with the word goon or swarm. Especially not a combination of the two. It cant be that hard to find money within goonswarm can it? Not everyone gets into investing in general, why would it be any different within the alliance? ;)
Meleil	Posted - 2008.05.12 21:20:00 - [92] I would invest in a goon business the same way I did with FRPB. Throw a tonne of cash in, profit for a couple months then pull out richer than before. It matters not who runs the business as long as I get profits and can pull out when I want.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.05.12 21:37:00 - [93] Originally by: Meleil I would invest in a goon business the same way I did with FRPB. Throw a tonne of cash in, profit for a couple months then pull out richer than before. It matters not who runs the business as long as I get profits and can pull out when I want. What a distinctly unrelated/uninformative statement. (?!?!?) The above quote is stating what you hope to be the final conclusion from investing and, well, I've never met anyone that invests in the hopes of losing their money so you are not saying anything insightful. So the question, of this thread, is not how you would invest in a Goonswarm connected IPO but why would you do so. Or are you saying that the reason you invested in FRPB is the same reason you would in Goonswarm? Mind you I have nothing specifically negative to say about Goonswarm itself, economics related or not, but if I did invest in GS IPO it would most definitely not be for the same reasons I would, or did, in FRPB. To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.
Mips Nig DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.12 23:32:00 - [94] Edited by: Mips Nig on 12/05/2008 23:32:21 Originally by: Shar Tegral So the question, of this thread, is not how you would invest in a Goonswarm connected IPO but why would you do so. Or are you saying that the reason you invested in FRPB is the same reason you would in Goonswarm? The only reason I would invest isk into a goonswarm IPO is to make isk. It's the only reason I invest in Eve. I don't invest so I can post here and feel all warm and fuzzy for it. Isk. I Don't care who runs it as long as Isk flows into my wallet. oh****
Segge Bolled Caldari Dirty Sexy Pilots	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:42:00 - [95] Originally by: Mips Nig Edited by: Mips Nig on 12/05/2008 23:32:21 Originally by: Shar Tegral So the question, of this thread, is not how you would invest in a Goonswarm connected IPO but why would you do so. Or are you saying that the reason you invested in FRPB is the same reason you would in Goonswarm? The only reason I would invest isk into a goonswarm IPO is to make isk. It's the only reason I invest in Eve. I don't invest so I can post here and feel all warm and fuzzy for it. Isk. I Don't care who runs it as long as Isk flows into my wallet. oh**** And how completely irrelevant this sort of commentary is, coming from a Goonswarm member when this thread was supposed to query interest and potential for investment from outside of Goonswarm.
Rawne Karrde An Tir Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.05.13 04:06:00 - [96] Think this shows exactly why I wouldn't invest in any IPO or business with a known member of goonswarm at the helm. Stellar Example of what Goons are about.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.05.13 04:30:00 - [97] Originally by: Mips Nig The only reason I would invest isk into a goonswarm IPO is to make isk. It's the only reason I invest in Eve. I don't invest so I can post here and feel all warm and fuzzy for it. Isk. I Don't care who runs it as long as Isk flows into my wallet. oh**** Okay, I'll be more clear: Gee, every moron and their mother invests to make more money. Guess that makes you equal to every moron or some moron's mother. Of course that desire is, as I previously said, what "you expect to get" from investing. The question isn't what do you expect from investing in a GS IPO, the question is "why would you" invest in a GS IPO. Around here we don't just talk about gaining isk, every wannabe have-not does that, we talk about how we gained it be it luck or logic. IMHO the only thing fuzzy around here is your sense of reality as you seem to think you are hard and we are weak. And I take it the warm comes from your bottom where your mommy spanked last week for ***ing off in the loo. Truth be told, talk is cheap and so are you. Why don't you go take your hard tough talk to the C&P forum where the other Eve softies appreciate it. Obviously you are not properly equipped, with logic/luck/or balls, to be here so... C&P Forum is that way ----> PS: Wheee... CCP put the pirate emote in the game so some loser can diddle himself happy. To Shar -verb*: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.
Adi LeFevre	Posted - 2008.05.13 07:17:00 - [98] I would love to invest 2 billion isk in a Goonswarm business. However, I need to redeem 500K zydrine impounded in a corp hangar. If you wish to help me pay the recovery bills (200M isk), I'd be more than happy to lend a hand to your business.
Segge Bolled Caldari Dirty Sexy Pilots	Posted - 2008.05.13 08:14:00 - [99] Originally by: Adi LeFevre I would love to invest 2 billion isk in a Goonswarm business. However, I need to redeem 500K zydrine impounded in a corp hangar. If you wish to help me pay the recovery bills (200M isk), I'd be more than happy to lend a hand to your business. Don't you have some sort of connection to royalty, too?
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.13 09:38:00 - [100] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 13/05/2008 09:39:26 You Goonswarm members (and alts) got some nerve coming here and attempting to sway the general opinion in the same manner as placing a carrot in front of a donkey then leading the poor animal off a cliff.
Hersheff	Posted - 2008.05.13 10:32:00 - [101] This topic has lost his sense due to the fact that goons disband. So the OP has to review his business plans, and i am amazed that the op did not take in account the instability in his own alliance. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you really want something in this life, you have to work for it. Now, quiet! The're about to announce the lottery numbers...
Ortos Abyssus Incendia THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.13 11:15:00 - [102] Originally by: mynnna Originally by: Ortos I'm not really much of an investor, but if I were to invest. Im sorry, it would not be in anything affiliated with the word goon or swarm. Especially not a combination of the two. It cant be that hard to find money within goonswarm can it? Not everyone gets into investing in general, why would it be any different within the alliance? ;) I'm slow at responding here, but it's the simple reputation Goonswarm has worked so hard to create. Goonswarm includes scamming recipees in their ABC's of EVE. It's not exactly inspiering trust. Heck, you even scam people interested in joining. And from what i can recall on an instant, Goonswarm has repetedly scammed their own members. Again, not really inspiering trust. But in the end, it comes down to one very simple thing: There are better options, if I was to invest i'd rather invest in low risk then high risk.
Power Sauce	Posted - 2008.05.13 11:53:00 - [103] I only way that I see public IPOs working for GoonSwarm members is for small scale IPOs to establish who are trustworthy and those that are not. There are a lot of small investors that read but don't post in MD. The critical issue for large scale IPOs through GoonSwarm is that a small number certain personalities have very large investment porfolios, and a number of them may be unwilling to invest for various reasons. Probably a good idea not to give your isk away to random goons though.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.13 14:35:00 - [104] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 13/05/2008 14:37:12 Originally by: Power Sauce I only way that I see public IPOs working for GoonSwarm members is for small scale IPOs to establish who are trustworthy and those that are not. There are a lot of small investors that read but don't post in MD. The critical issue for large scale IPOs through GoonSwarm is that a small number certain personalities have very large investment porfolios, and a number of them may be unwilling to invest for various reasons. Probably a good idea not to give your isk away to random goons though. Cut the manipulation crap pls.
DeathGrip Amarr Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.05.13 17:20:00 - [105] This is Proton's Alt for those that do not know, but please keep Proton Power's Name or PCT out of this thread, I do not endorse, nor will I ever recomend to invest in any Goon IPO. I actually had some good friends in one of the Goon Corps and still would not recommend any of them. ---------------------------------------------- Goons are so large, why not just open an IPO to goons only, their is enough isk in that one alliance to supply any IPO you could dream of? Or does your own alliance not trust you?
Haakkon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.13 17:46:00 - [106] Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 13/05/2008 09:39:26 You Goonswarm members (and alts) got some nerve coming here and attempting to sway the general opinion in the same manner as placing a carrot in front of a donkey then leading the poor animal off a cliff. MD is intelligent enough that any sort of misleading or disingenuous discourse will be called out and not followed. Originally by: Hersheff This topic has lost his sense due to the fact that goons disband. So the OP has to review his business plans, and i am amazed that the op did not take in account the instability in his own alliance. Goons disband? Goonswarm has been around for years and will be around for years more. What are you talking about? Originally by: Ortos And from what i can recall on an instant, Goonswarm has repetedly scammed their own members. Again, not really inspiering trust. This is bannable. Originally by: Ortos But in the end, it comes down to one very simple thing: There are better options, if I was to invest i'd rather invest in low risk then high risk. If you can find better options that are more aligned with what you want to see your money doing, then by all means, please invest in those. I'm just wondering what sort of return is necessary to generate non-goon interest and so on. All that said, I'm surprised this thread is still getting so many replies. I realize there's a lot of anti-goon hatred, but who knows, perhaps one day you'll realize not every goon is a complete jerkoff?
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.05.13 18:02:00 - [107] Originally by: Haakkon All that said, I'm surprised this thread is still getting so many replies. I realize there's a lot of anti-goon hatred, but who knows, perhaps one day you'll realize not every goon is a complete jerkoff? ^^^^ This is why I'm responding. (More correctly I don't see GS as being all jerks.) However, to be fair, you have to admit that you have a lot of guilt by association to deal with. You can not state, to many satisfaction, how involved in past GS "adventures" you have been in or if you are going to be one of those highly rumoured non-jerks you talk about as well. That is the burden you have in front of you and the reason many keep adding to this thread. Of course if you had presented an actual business plan or were going for an IPO you might get different, more insightful instead of incite-ful, replies. To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.
Haakkon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.13 18:13:00 - [108] Originally by: Shar Tegral ^^^^ This is why I'm responding. (More correctly I don't see GS as being all jerks.) However, to be fair, you have to admit that you have a lot of guilt by association to deal with. You can not state, to many satisfaction, how involved in past GS "adventures" you have been in or if you are going to be one of those highly rumoured non-jerks you talk about as well. That is the burden you have in front of you and the reason many keep adding to this thread. Of course if you had presented an actual business plan or were going for an IPO you might get different, more insightful instead of incite-ful, replies. Yes. Due to the nature of eve characters, I can't really come out and say that "Yes I have done X in the past" or "No, I have never done X" with any ounce of credibility (and this goes for anyone in Eve, not just goons). It's also true I'm not presenting a business plan or asking for money right now. I believe that asking for money or launching a non-goon venture without being fully aware of my operating environment (namely how hostile MD is towards goons) would be irresponsible to my shareholders and silly for me to spend so much effort for nothing. Right now this is just a discussion and goon-bashing session. Any sort of investment opportunities will be, I'm sure, in a different thread.
Ricdic's Hoe	Posted - 2008.05.13 18:14:00 - [109] Interesting thread this one. I didn't have much to say so didn't bother previously posting. Every IPO or bond has it's pro's and con's. Those running the operations obviously have a questionable reputation behind them but having said that I know a couple of goons that I do trust a decent amount. I am sure there are plenty of others who are trustworthy within the goons as well. To the OP who seems to be handling things quite well, if you have an operation planned get it started. Keep everything clear and offer what is needed to alleviate people's fears. Generally people will invest in operations that follow these guidelines : 1) Not alts or characters under 6 months old 2) Not related to YouGotRipped or LRN 3) Have a good business plan and foundation behind them If you choose to open up a public corporation you will basically be starting at a rather large handicap (due to the goon rep). Keep your atitude civil and non-hostile (as you have done here), and make sure when you bring your business plan to the table that it is rock solid. Don't figure things out as you go, or make up things to cover your ass. If you need too, organise securities, collateral options, guarantors and the likes. Offer something the public wants. You will need decent returns, proof or documentation (if possible) of previous financial periods etc. It would be an awfully hard road but I definetly wouldn't discount my investing if you manage to pull it off. Posting with my hoe so people don't think it's EBANK endorsed.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.13 19:01:00 - [110] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 13/05/2008 19:05:10 Originally by: Ricdic's Hoe [...] To the OP who seems to be handling things quite well, if you have an operation planned get it started. Keep everything clear and offer what is needed to alleviate people's fears. Generally people will invest in operations that follow these guidelines : 1) Not alts or characters under 6 months old 2) Not related to YouGotRipped or LRN [...] LOL Your ass still hurts, ha?
Ortos Abyssus Incendia THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.13 19:55:00 - [111] Edited by: Ortos on 13/05/2008 19:58:18 Originally by: Haakkon All that said, I'm surprised this thread is still getting so many replies. I realize there's a lot of anti-goon hatred, but who knows, perhaps one day you'll realize not every goon is a complete jerkoff? If a goon reads the goon introduction guide he'll be a scammer by the end of his first day. =) Now dont flame on people for pointing out such a simple fact. And what is beeing expressed within this thread is not goon hatred. It's a protection of peoples money. Say you started offering 20% per month on your next IPO. That would be A: A scam B: You ripping yourself off in order to gain trust. C: You beeing a complete idiot, beeing far better off raising your own funds and beeing able to finance your projects yourself. D: A too good to be true offer, and you know what they say about those? As an example: You: I need to raise 4 billions for my next IPO. 20% per month. Now, you'd might still be making money off this. But just using two weeks of intense ratting \ missioning to get the funds yourself would put you in a soooo much better situation. You'd be making allmost 800m more on your IPO per month at that. If you said 4b @ 10% interest, where you'd be making good money yourself. People would pass, and rather look for someone a bit more trustworthy giving 7-8%. Now, if you said "I need 20 billions for my next IPO". You wouldnt get it, people wouldnt trust any goon with such an amount. Now, since goons disbanded. Lets think about that. A previous goonswarm member having been 3 months in his current corp. I might concider to invest in that. As long as that corp ofcource is not affiliated with the new goonguilds. And as a last point: You putting up the recuired security for a project like this would again mean your probably better off selling the assets and having money to invest in most cases. Adding: If the new Goon guilds stop allowing scamming. This could potencially help your situation. (Though this new trust wouldnt happen overnight)
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.13 20:04:00 - [112] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 13/05/2008 20:04:45 Best, goons IPOs are kept for goons and that solves it. Now let's just leave this thread in the dustbin of history where it belongs.
Ortos Abyssus Incendia THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.13 20:15:00 - [113] No more space there, were still working on where to store this. Frigging idiot YouGotRipped and LRN's projects taking up all the space. pun intended
Professor Leech Southern Light Entertainment Black Scope Project	Posted - 2008.05.13 21:43:00 - [114] Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 13/05/2008 14:37:12 Originally by: Power Sauce I only way that I see public IPOs working for GoonSwarm members is for small scale IPOs to establish who are trustworthy and those that are not. There are a lot of small investors that read but don't post in MD. The critical issue for large scale IPOs through GoonSwarm is that a small number certain personalities have very large investment porfolios, and a number of them may be unwilling to invest for various reasons. Probably a good idea not to give your isk away to random goons though. Cut the manipulation crap pls. My alts non-manipulative post seems to have greatly upset you. How unfortunate.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.13 21:56:00 - [115] Originally by: Professor Leech Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 13/05/2008 14:37:12 Originally by: Power Sauce I only way that I see public IPOs working for GoonSwarm members is for small scale IPOs to establish who are trustworthy and those that are not. There are a lot of small investors that read but don't post in MD. The critical issue for large scale IPOs through GoonSwarm is that a small number certain personalities have very large investment porfolios, and a number of them may be unwilling to invest for various reasons. Probably a good idea not to give your isk away to random goons though. Cut the manipulation crap pls. My alts non-manipulative post seems to have greatly upset you. How unfortunate. There were only 2 possibilities: manipulation or stupidity. Would you like me to detail the last one?
Professor Leech Southern Light Entertainment Black Scope Project	Posted - 2008.05.13 21:58:00 - [116] Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 13/05/2008 21:57:34 Originally by: Professor Leech Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 13/05/2008 14:37:12 Originally by: Power Sauce I only way that I see public IPOs working for GoonSwarm members is for small scale IPOs to establish who are trustworthy and those that are not. There are a lot of small investors that read but don't post in MD. The critical issue for large scale IPOs through GoonSwarm is that a small number certain personalities have very large investment porfolios, and a number of them may be unwilling to invest for various reasons. Probably a good idea not to give your isk away to random goons though. Cut the manipulation crap pls. My alts non-manipulative post seems to have greatly upset you. How unfortunate. There were only 2 possibilities: manipulation or stupidity. Would you like me to detail the last one? Do go on derailing the thread.
Ortos Abyssus Incendia THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.14 02:16:00 - [117] Pfft, he's just ****ed the goon buisness is getting more positive responces then his own threads. =) I wonder who would win if someone made a poll named "If you had to invest your money in either a YouGotRipped\LRN or Haakkon project, which would you prefer?" A
Professor Leech Southern Light Entertainment Black Scope Project	Posted - 2008.05.14 03:17:00 - [118] Originally by: Ortos Pfft, he's just ****ed the goon buisness is getting more positive responces then his own threads. =) I wonder who would win if someone made a poll named "If you had to invest your money in either a YouGotRipped\LRN or Haakkon project, which would you prefer?" A Don't get me wrong I'd consider investing in one of YouGotRipped's scams if everything he touched didn't end up looking like a bicycle handgrip.
Ortos Abyssus Incendia THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.14 03:23:00 - [119] Edited by: Ortos on 14/05/2008 03:22:50 Risk of scam or investment in space bicycle handgrips.. tough call.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.05.14 04:05:00 - [120] Originally by: Ortos Edited by: Ortos on 14/05/2008 03:22:50 Risk of scam or investment in space bicycle handgrips.. tough call. At this point I'd sooner give my isk to a goon
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2008.05.14 05:34:00 - [121] Originally by: YouGotRipped There were only 2 possibilities: manipulation or stupidity. Would you like me to detail the last one or should I leave it to Ricdic? It's so cute watching you still try to fit in with this community and digging your grave deeper every time you try. I would invest in this goons ipo unsecured over any 120% secured business option you brought out. Sadly (for you) I believe a lot of other people would do the same.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.14 10:07:00 - [122] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 14/05/2008 10:16:02 Originally by: EBANK Ricdic Originally by: YouGotRipped There were only 2 possibilities: manipulation or stupidity. Would you like me to detail the last one or should I leave it to Ricdic? It's so cute watching you still try to fit in with this community and digging your grave deeper every time you try. I would invest in this goons ipo unsecured over any 120% secured business option you brought out. Sadly (for you) I believe a lot of other people would do the same. What Ricdic is trying to say is that his gut is never wrong. The same sound reasoning allowed him, when I launched an IPO, to state that (maybe not then but) in the end I will scam everyone. I never scammed anyone, I even had two bonds and one IPO (Yarden Tajj, Kazuo Ishiguro, Tarash Awin) that I've carried out for a limited amount of time before returning the money to the investors. And I had good reasons for doing so - RL schedule was becoming an issue, or I had health issues that threatened my life and needed surgery, or simply profitability was shooting through the roof so there was no reason to keep the bond going). At this point I no longer consider running IPOs or the such again, I have made enough money (10.2B isk) to invest myself (gathered in less than a month of active trading and manufacturing). I'm on vacation now and I've also lost my interest to deal with those such as Ricdic.
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2008.05.14 11:17:00 - [123] Nice one. Just accept it, you lost. Game over ripper. Or should I say, RIP
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.14 11:22:00 - [124] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 14/05/2008 11:23:38 Originally by: EBANK Ricdic Nice one. Just accept it, you lost. Game over ripper. Or should I say, RIP I am still waiting for your apologies tbh. I am aware that it will take some time though. Other from what we have nothing to talk about.
Haakkon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.14 12:52:00 - [125] Originally by: EBANK Ricdic Nice one. Just accept it, you lost. Game over ripper. Or should I say, RIP Er, to me or to YGR? Could someone also fill me in on the YGR / MD animosity? I think I came to the scene significantly after whatever it was occurred.
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2008.05.14 12:56:00 - [126] hehe I was talking to YouGotRipped
Haakkon Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.14 13:09:00 - [127] Edited by: Haakkon on 14/05/2008 13:13:43 Originally by: EBANK Ricdic hehe I was talking to YouGotRipped Ah I see! So what's up with the feud between you too? He keeps posting as if you like goons more than him, though I have a feeling Ebank would stay far, far away from any Goon ventures.
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2008.05.14 13:51:00 - [128] Actually you should speak to some of your alliance members. We definetly have dealt with members of the goons in the past, just as we have likely dealt with 25% of the big alliances out there (by that i mean various deals with corps inside them, not the alliances themselves). Like I said before whilst reputation is definetly a factor it isn't the only thing we use to determine that validity of a loan.
Athre Minmatar The HIgher Standard	Posted - 2008.05.14 19:03:00 - [129] Originally by: Haakkon Edited by: Haakkon on 14/05/2008 13:13:43 Originally by: EBANK Ricdic hehe I was talking to YouGotRipped Ah I see! So what's up with the feud between you too? He keeps posting as if you like goons more than him, though I have a feeling Ebank would stay far, far away from any Goon ventures. While I can not say for sure what has happened before my return, do a search on LRN as well as YGR, for that matter any character in the corp Ewigkeit and you may get an idea of why the anamosity exists. Back to the topic - 1)Would I invest in a Goon IPO? NO! 2)Would I invest in a Haakkon IPO? Maybe - thus far the posts presented in MD have been honorable, not only to respecting and not wavering his allegiance but also respecting others may have a problem with the connection to the Goon Alliance. 3)Why do I distrust goons - the culture of self serving bastages that use and abuse those who are not of the culture. I dont tell you how to play, why do you tell me I can not mine in a hulk out of minmatar space with out you breathing down my neck? 4)Would I invest in any joe smoe that drops an IPO into MD? NO! When I returned I took a week examining the stocks on the two exchange groups and ended up with about 3 stocks/bonds/ipo's I was interested. I can not speak for all but researching before investing is something I strongly suggest to anyone. As has been said before, the ultimate item necessary is trust. I see you are willing to put the time in Haakkon, I wish you luck with that.
Ortos Abyssus Incendia THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.14 21:43:00 - [130] Originally by: Haakkon Edited by: Haakkon on 14/05/2008 13:13:43 Originally by: EBANK Ricdic hehe I was talking to YouGotRipped Ah I see! So what's up with the feud between you too? He keeps posting as if you like goons more than him, though I have a feeling Ebank would stay far, far away from any Goon ventures. Lets just say as long as you post valid buisness plans on this forum and pull them off your social status is doomed to stay a few hundred thousand times stronger then YGR. =)
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.14 22:29:00 - [131] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 14/05/2008 22:35:12 Originally by: Ortos Originally by: Haakkon Edited by: Haakkon on 14/05/2008 13:13:43 Originally by: EBANK Ricdic hehe I was talking to YouGotRipped Ah I see! So what's up with the feud between you too? He keeps posting as if you like goons more than him, though I have a feeling Ebank would stay far, far away from any Goon ventures. Lets just say as long as you post valid buisness plans on this forum and pull them off your social status is doomed to stay a few hundred thousand times stronger then YGR. =) I've always been compassionate towards other people when it came to pointing flaws in their reasoning. I mean how can someone be so indifferent to their suffering? I have actually helped more poor souls than any other member of this community. Take Ricdic for example or Shadarle, they don't miss one chance to thank me from the bottom of their hearts. This is what it means to be a responsible member of this community.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company	Posted - 2008.05.15 02:30:00 - [132] Originally by: YouGotRipped I've always been compassionate towards other people when it came to pointing flaws in their reasoning. I mean how can someone be so indifferent to their suffering? I have actually helped more poor souls than any other member of this community. Take Ricdic for example or Shadarle, they don't miss one chance to thank me from the bottom of their hearts. This is what it really means to be a responsible member of this community. The amusement I feel when watching your bipolar posting habits is only exceeded by my amusement at your insignificance. At least you fill your niche in the community well <3
Macdeth Ephemeral Misgivings	Posted - 2008.05.15 03:37:00 - [133] My thoughts would be that if you want to fundraise off of goonfleet.com, go ahead and make the thread(s) and tend to them, tell the "Ahh! A goon! Scam!" people to **** off, and if you get no isk at all, whatever... Internal Goonfleet investment potential is big enough for most people if you network enough, and less effort than doing it here. Odds are you'll get at least a few bites from here, though, and those people can attest to your legitimacy later on.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.15 09:35:00 - [134] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 15/05/2008 09:40:34 Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Originally by: YouGotRipped I've always been compassionate towards other people when it came to pointing flaws in their reasoning. I mean how can someone be so indifferent to their suffering? I have actually helped more poor souls than any other member of this community. Take Ricdic for example or Shadarle, they don't miss one chance to thank me from the bottom of their hearts. This is what it really means to be a responsible member of this community. The amusement I feel when watching your bipolar posting habits is only exceeded by my amusement at your insignificance. At least you fill your niche in the community well <3 I can take a punch pretty fine but please abstain yourself from using "<3" and ":P". Considering your real gender (and not the avatar's), your posts that feature such emoticons make me noxious. Your problem lies with Xq28. Search google for that. That's all I can do to help you.
Kwint Sommer Lothian Quay Industries	Posted - 2008.05.15 10:03:00 - [135] Edited by: Kwint Sommer on 15/05/2008 10:03:24 Originally by: Haakkon Edited by: Haakkon on 14/05/2008 13:13:43 Originally by: EBANK Ricdic hehe I was talking to YouGotRipped Ah I see! So what's up with the feud between you too? He keeps posting as if you like goons more than him, though I have a feeling Ebank would stay far, far away from any Goon ventures. I wasn't planning to comment on this thread but I've got to say a few words about that. YouGotRipped is a bi-polar troller and scammer. He's been enough of a troll to get at least half a dozen posts removed by the mods, a ban and a locked thread. A moderator even called him a troll at one point. Sadly, he has yet to be perma-banned. For a while he was trying to raise public funds but he could never get investment, even when he offered security. Thanks partially to his attitude and partially to his prior indirect admittance that his offers were scams. He also has a habit of claiming he can make some random number of billions between 2 and 10 every month and I don't think I've ever seen him post the same number twice. After he gave up on getting investment he started using a color-shifted version of my signature (including my name) which is a big part of the reason I go after the idiot. For the last few weeks he's been trying to act like a regular old member of the forum except he keeps insulting Ricdic. He'll take shots at the guy for no reason. My guess is he's trying to associate himself with Ricdic in people's minds because he figures being the man's nemesis will get him more investors than just being a generic dumbass troll. Or maybe he just resents the fact that Ricdic is respected and he's not so he's trying to drag him through the mud like he was with me. Regardless, he should have been permanently banned from these forums a long time ago. Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.15 10:16:00 - [136] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 15/05/2008 10:20:23 Edited by: YouGotRipped on 15/05/2008 10:19:59 Reserved working on a way to share an image of my wallet balance.
Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.15 10:24:00 - [137] Originally by: YouGotRipped Pssst, Kwint, here boy! Wallet balance I find it funny you think 10.3b is some kind of big number. Really isn't much to be proud of tbh, and honestly we don't really care how much you have. Director \| www.eve-bank.net
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.15 10:30:00 - [138] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 15/05/2008 10:36:46 Originally by: Mr Horizontal Originally by: YouGotRipped Pssst, Kwint, here boy! Wallet balance I find it funny you think 10.3b is some kind of big number. Really isn't much to be proud of tbh, and honestly we don't really care how much you have. Then why post your opinion at all? The fact that matters is that I've made those money in less than a month of active trading and manufacturing. And I've been quite lazy. Plus I've lost a lot of isk on typos. And this char is just a front as you might have already noticed.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.05.15 15:31:00 - [139] Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 15/05/2008 13:12:28 Psst, Kwint, here boy! Wallet balance As for the rest of your post - a combination of distorted reality and trolling - you should read this on and on till you achieve resynk. Most lvl 4 mission runners have that much in their wallet, whoopty do. Come back when your in triple digits
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.15 15:38:00 - [140] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 15/05/2008 15:45:36 Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Most lvl 4 mission runners have that much in their wallet, whoopty do. Come back when your in triple digits triple digits... What is the purpose of that? Ask Shadarle what was the time cost for the rights to brag about the size of his wallet, and most importantly what does he do with his wealth. The following however, makes more sense: Originally by: Ambo I have no interest in role playing. I invest because it allows me to play perpetually for free and covers the cost of losing cheap ships. In other words, I do nothing to make money now, I don't rat, mission, mine, trade or manufacture. I only PvP. As long as I don't lose too much in the way of ships I can keep doing this indefinatley thanks to my investments. On the %age scams front, I've had 22 investments so far. 2 have been scams and were early in my Eve market career and both for smaller amounts (500 mil and 700 mil I think), the rest have all made money or are waiting on first divs. In total, taking the scams into account, I have made around 4 bil on the secondary market since sept 07. Certainly nothing to compare to trading for example, but not half bad for virtually zero effort. edit: sp
Segge Bolled Caldari Dirty Sexy Pilots	Posted - 2008.05.15 16:31:00 - [141] Originally by: YouGotRipped I can take a punch pretty well but please abstain yourself from using "<3" and ":P". Considering your real gender (and not the avatar's), your posts that feature such emoticons make me noxious. I doubt there are many who'd deny you are quite noxious indeed,
mynnna Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.16 15:14:00 - [142] Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 15/05/2008 13:12:28 Psst, Kwint, here boy! Wallet balance You must spend a lot of isk if you can make (number between 2 and 10) billion a month and still only have 10b isk
Blue Dice Gallente Flying While Intoxicated The Threshold	Posted - 2008.05.16 15:27:00 - [143] Edited by: Blue Dice on 16/05/2008 15:29:19 To bring this a little back to the topic: Haakkon i'm looking forward to see your IPO, if it suits me I might invest. I have no personal feelings about Goons as of now as I didnt have any contact (any noticable contact anyways) with them. Your way to answer patiently here, while keeping your calm over all the flaming is remarkable. If your IPO looks good the fact you are in Goonswarm will not keep me from investing into it. Good luck. Edit: Correction in Haakkons name...again Nano Tech Inc.
Berand Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.05.16 17:23:00 - [144] A Goonie-run IPO. The phrase that comes to mind is, "A fool and his money are soon parted." This is an alliance that prides itself on how well it scams people. Look, if you're really considering investing in this, just give me your isk instead. I wont give it back, nor will I pay any return on your investment in any way. But at least I'll spare you the public mocking you'll get for doing the same thing with a Goonie. Thus, you'll come out ahead. I think that's a pretty fair deal. My wallet is waiting! Berand
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.05.17 17:49:00 - [145] Originally by: Kwint Sommer For a while he was trying to raise public funds but he could never get investment, even when he offered security. That isn't quite true. I accepted the collateral he offered in return for an investment of 500m, and he was kind enough to repay it 2 weeks later with 40m of interest even though he never started a publicly funded venture. I wonder whether it would have been a public service to demand a ransom of a month's civil forum conduct before returning his BPOs, but then again I also wonder how he'd have done if he hadn't publicly attacked so many potential investors. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.05.18 09:50:00 - [146] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Originally by: Kwint Sommer For a while he was trying to raise public funds but he could never get investment, even when he offered security. That isn't quite true. I accepted the collateral he offered in return for an investment of 500m, and he was kind enough to repay it 2 weeks later with 40m of interest even though he never started a publicly funded venture. I wonder whether it would have been a public service to demand a ransom of a month's civil forum conduct before returning his BPOs, but then again I also wonder how he'd have done if he hadn't publicly attacked so many potential investors. We'll find out soon enough if that even matters.
Opertone Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.18 22:52:00 - [147] the BoB and the general public who dislikes the goon will do everything to force this undertaking into a failure... there are spies everywhere
Shin Ra BURN EDEN	Posted - 2008.05.18 23:11:00 - [148] I would invest in a goon run venture. They are actually very trustworthy people and only tend to exploit idiots anyway - something I don't have a problem with. I had numerous dealings with them and always had a successful outcome.
LancerSix Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.05.19 21:53:00 - [149] Originally by: Shin Ra I had numerous dealings with them and always had a successful outcome. Thread won.

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