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Suicide gank - Dev comment?

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Kusha'an Gallente Equinox Industrial Co.	Posted - 2008.05.09 15:16:00 - [31] Originally by: Blancanieves But you know what? You could use the scanner yourself and find out what those Ravens waiting at the next gate have fitted or in their cargo. If they have expensive gear fitted, they're probably not suicide gankers and waiting for war targets instead... LOLz...have you tried this? 1. Scanning another ship's cargo while still in cloak 2. Targeting another ship while still in cloak 3. Scanning several ships' cargo uncloaked before being targeted and alpha'd 4. Scanning any ship's cargo from the other side of a gate ROFL ---- What part of "shorn't" do you not understand?
Dianeces Minmatar The Illuminati.	Posted - 2008.05.09 15:29:00 - [32] Originally by: Kusha'an Originally by: Blancanieves But you know what? You could use the scanner yourself and find out what those Ravens waiting at the next gate have fitted or in their cargo. If they have expensive gear fitted, they're probably not suicide gankers and waiting for war targets instead... LOLz...have you tried this? 1. Scanning another ship's cargo while still in cloak 2. Targeting another ship while still in cloak 3. Scanning several ships' cargo uncloaked before being targeted and alpha'd 4. Scanning any ship's cargo from the other side of a gate ROFL Wait, so what you're saying is that teamwork > solo play? That's obviously imbalanced and should be nerfed ASAP!1!!1one!
Xaryus	Posted - 2008.05.09 15:37:00 - [33] Being killed by concord should void the insurence. New players get new rookie ships and WARNINGS unless they turn them off. What insurance company that wants to make a profit would pay out on the insurance for a deliberate self-destruct? Or something that used to commit a crime and destroyed in the progress? That would make much less profitable to suicide gank, but still enough for the really expensive stuff. So only those with officer mods or full faction etc would have to worry, and those usually should know better then making themselves targets. -- Everyone is someone elses wierdo.
Ivy Axisur	Posted - 2008.05.09 18:17:00 - [34] A few simple changes would fix the problem of high sec ganking. IMO itÆs ridiculous that CCP hasnÆt posted any dev feedback on the subject. A simple ôweÆre looking into the mechanics of this issue and hope to have a solutions soonö or ôwhere not going to do anything about itö would suffice. There are a lot of people quite angry about this issue. Personally, I thought it was cool at first, but now that the art of the gank and been refined, itÆs simply an exploit with no risk to the attacker. Some simple fixes would address this. (probably 2 or more of the following would do the trick). 1.Slow the speed of the scanner so that only AFK ships can be scanned for modules. 2.Remove insurance for being Concorded. 3.DonÆt allow NPC corp pilots to fire on other players in high sec. 4.Increase Concord response time. 5.Have Concord fire on loot theft ships when corps are not at war. 6.Massive standings loss for killing a non-war target in high sec. 7.More defendable cargo ships û they donÆt have weapons û give them BS tanks. 8.Nerf focused fire. IMO û this would make all EVE PVP more fun. Personally IÆve never lost a ship in a fair fight, itÆs always 4 or more on 1. Not fun. (this may be complex to implement though)
Hanneshannes	Posted - 2008.05.09 18:24:00 - [35] When you are being fair in war, you're doing something wrong.
Strak Yogorn Amarr Mind Warpers	Posted - 2008.05.09 19:50:00 - [36] sounds like eve is NOT the game for you, now stop whining and use one of the older threads instead of making new threads all the time. actually, ppl making new gank threads all the time, is what ccp should nerf, since that is the only issue here.
Dokar Durinia Amarr Cabal kaBob	Posted - 2008.05.09 20:27:00 - [37] Originally by: NRGsting ... My advice to CCP is to look closer into the basics of what makes a successful MMO and treat all their players as costumers looking for an enjoyable experience... I dress myself quite well, thank you.
Raskor Crossflow Enterprises	Posted - 2008.05.10 04:32:00 - [38] I would be interested to see what would happen if they changed it to make scanning another ship an act of aggression, similar to stealing from another players wreck/can. Of course, I suppose then they would just use an alt in a disposable ship for the scanning so as not to expose their gank ships to pre-emptive attack.
Divad Ginleek Gallente Gateway Industries House of Mercury	Posted - 2008.05.10 06:31:00 - [39] Transferable/sellable kill rights and no insurance for concord deaths would do the trick. Those two moves would make bounty hunting a viable career option, and let suicide gankers keep on doing what they do best... Just with a real risk to balance the reward (will that 500mil deadspace mod drop or get destroyed?!!! ::sweat drop::) Also note that both options are logical changes of game mechanics that many people have suggested before, and in no way directly "nerfs" or "boosts" carebearing or suicide ganking. Another quick idea I just had while about to press reply: make it impossible for a trial account to fire a weapon against a player. you already cant train certain skills on trial acct... just continue that theme. If your a newb and want to try to blow up that shiny iteron V, tough. Pony up and pay for your time, like your target does. If your a ganker... tough, use your main/paid alt or get the **** out. ::insert witty signature here::
Gumdrop	Posted - 2008.05.10 07:06:00 - [40] The problem isnt the gankers its that high sec is far to profitable and 90% of the ppl in high sec play the game afk. If they would just nerf highsec hard then ppl would be **** poor and not worth ganking, problem solved.
Fumen	Posted - 2008.05.10 07:26:00 - [41] Originally by: Gumdrop The problem isnt the gankers its that high sec is far to profitable and 90% of the ppl in high sec play the game afk. If they would just nerf highsec hard then ppl would be **** poor and not worth ganking, problem solved. I just love how people make up numbers.... If 90% of the high sec players are afk players, then that would mean that about 77% of the player population logged in at any given time is afk. Wow... here is your public education tax dollars at work... Is this your reasoning for suicide ganking another ship? Why do you need a reason? Feel guilty for doing it if you don't have a good reason? /troll off
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.05.10 11:47:00 - [42] Originally by: Fumen Originally by: Gumdrop The problem isnt the gankers its that high sec is far to profitable and 90% of the ppl in high sec play the game afk. If they would just nerf highsec hard then ppl would be **** poor and not worth ganking, problem solved. I just love how people make up numbers.... If 90% of the high sec players are afk players, then that would mean that about 77% of the player population logged in at any given time is afk. Wow... here is your public education tax dollars at work... Is this your reasoning for suicide ganking another ship? Why do you need a reason? Feel guilty for doing it if you don't have a good reason? /troll off Lol. Someone a little bitter about getting owned in high sec?
Tradella	Posted - 2008.05.10 18:24:00 - [43] What people often forget when telling mission runners to "not be a target" is that mission runners more than any other group in an MMO are playing a progress game. You can have a fully T2 fitted Raven with decent skills in a couple of months (much less than the average 7 months people stay in this game). So if they have good reason not to venture to 0.0 or low sec (I will not list the reasons now - this has already been discussed in great lengths ), what is their way of progressing? Buying shiny stuff for their mission ships seems like one of the very few options. So if CCP wants this game to stay attractive for mission runners for any time greater than a few months then they should give them means to keep running missions in 7B CNRs. Please do not come up with fake argument no. 73 now, that people with expensive ships should get a team together for protection. This is not practical, this will not happen, this is not even doable for many players (e.g. casual players). Here is hope there will be a CSM project to shift the balance for suicide ganking. No, you shouldn't be safe. But you should not be a profitable, easy gank as soon as you fly with a BS-sized faction AB. This is not balanced. And it is bad for CCP's pockets. Tradella
Gentle Miner School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.10 19:58:00 - [44] Maybe the only way to combat it at the moment is to self destruct the moment anyone trys to suicide gank you. They get nothing for their trouble except CONCORDED? If you're going to lose your ship anyway might aswell not give them the satisfaction of getting anything from it.
Dianeces Minmatar The Illuminati.	Posted - 2008.05.10 19:58:00 - [45] Originally by: Tradella But you should not be a profitable, easy gank as soon as you fly with a BS-sized faction AB. You aren't a target with just a faction AB.
Tradella	Posted - 2008.05.10 20:59:00 - [46] Originally by: Dianeces You aren't a target with just a faction AB. Maybe, but this entirely depends on the current prices of a module and supply of gankable targets. As long as the costs for the gank are so low it might just happen (I paid 650M for my Gist X-type 100mn AB a couple of months ago - now the prices have dropped it seems). However, that is really besides the point. You should be able to progress as a mission runner. Not in total safety, but not as easy a target as now. Tradella
Dianeces Minmatar The Illuminati.	Posted - 2008.05.10 21:16:00 - [47] Originally by: Tradella You should be able to progress as a mission runner. Not in total safety, but not as easy a target as now. Tradella You can. In fact, you could have a full Gist-X Navy Raven and you would be nearly 100% safe as long as you stayed out of mission hubs. By missioning in hubs, you paint a target on yourself. You can progress as far as you want, you just need to take steps to protect yourself.
Tradella	Posted - 2008.05.10 21:44:00 - [48] Originally by: Dianeces Originally by: Tradella You should be able to progress as a mission runner. Not in total safety, but not as easy a target as now. Tradella You can. In fact, you could have a full Gist-X Navy Raven and you would be nearly 100% safe as long as you stayed out of mission hubs. By missioning in hubs, you paint a target on yourself. You can progress as far as you want, you just need to take steps to protect yourself. This argument would be acceptable if there was a wide variety of L4 decent quality agents to choose from, for every faction. If the number of mission runners for a faction is that much larger than the number of suitable agents you can only temporarily circumvent the problem. As people leave hubs, so new hubs will be created. Tradella
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.05.10 22:04:00 - [49] Originally by: Tradella Originally by: Dianeces Originally by: Tradella You should be able to progress as a mission runner. Not in total safety, but not as easy a target as now. Tradella You can. In fact, you could have a full Gist-X Navy Raven and you would be nearly 100% safe as long as you stayed out of mission hubs. By missioning in hubs, you paint a target on yourself. You can progress as far as you want, you just need to take steps to protect yourself. This argument would be acceptable if there was a wide variety of L4 decent quality agents to choose from, for every faction. If the number of mission runners for a faction is that much larger than the number of suitable agents you can only temporarily circumvent the problem. As people leave hubs, so new hubs will be created. Tradella Motsu has been a lag-filled dump for quite a while now. To suggest that suddenly all the mission runners are going to pour out of it for a better hub is nonsense imo. Caldari Navy is one of the best-known mission corps, and a lot of lemmings won't bother to even look for other agents. I had one guy tell me on the forums Motsu had the only L4Q18 agent in all of high sec Point being, Motsu population isn't going anywhere anytime soon. So, that said, find yourself one of the obscure corporations with a nice agent. Just because you leave for an obscure agent doesn't mean everyone will follow. Most of the lemmings will sit in Motsu, dying to griefers and lag, and crying about it on the forums.
Avan Strega Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2008.05.11 05:52:00 - [50] Threads like this really grind my gears. Originally by: Kusha'an Originally by: Blancanieves But you know what? You could use the scanner yourself and find out what those Ravens waiting at the next gate have fitted or in their cargo. If they have expensive gear fitted, they're probably not suicide gankers and waiting for war targets instead... LOLz...have you tried this? 1. Scanning another ship's cargo while still in cloak 2. Targeting another ship while still in cloak 3. Scanning several ships' cargo uncloaked before being targeted and alpha'd 4. Scanning any ship's cargo from the other side of a gate ROFL this is so stupid it must be a troll, however just in case you're really being serious: go through in a frigate first, and check. better still, have a friend or a corpmate (this is after all a multiplayer online game) go through first and check. TBH, not many gangs hunting wartargets are going to consist of a load of ravens, probably don't even need to scan them. If it looks dodgy, just don't go and do the mission. Someone who has missioned enough to be flying a ship worth targetting (deadspace/officer fittings) can afford to turn down the odd mission I think. Or, swap your expensive gear for T2 fittings for that mission. I personally don't see why people need these pimped out mission ships anyway. Missions are not exactly challenging, especially with T2 fittings. As far as getting out of the hubs, people won't do that because they are greedy and insist on using only the highest quality agents. I guess this is the same reason they also fly with deadspace/officer fittings. Well here's your potential price for greed - more likelihood of getting ganked. Settle for a little less isk/hour, and fly T2, or don't use the highest quality agents. Originally by: Ivy Axisur IMO itÆs ridiculous that CCP hasnÆt posted any dev feedback on the subject. try re-reading the very first reply in the thread. For the person that said mission runners are playing a progress game - so what happens once you have a navy raven with full deadspace tank etc. Surely there's nothing else to work towards. Apart from stockpiling isk to spend on......? Hey, if you get ganked at this point, at least it gives you something to work towards again, right? There are plenty of defences against being ganked, either your hauler or your mission ship. However, they all require people to (a) not play afk (how many times have CCP said they want this to be an at-keyboard game) (b) think a bit about their situation and be generally aware (c) use teamwork (or an alt works too, for the solo player with 2 accounts) and all these things seem unacceptable for some reason. I do agree that transferrable killrights are a pretty good idea though. Thunderstruck is recruiting
Tradella	Posted - 2008.05.11 07:40:00 - [51] Originally by: Boz Well So, that said, find yourself one of the obscure corporations with a nice agent. Just because you leave for an obscure agent doesn't mean everyone will follow. Most of the lemmings will sit in Motsu, dying to griefers and lag, and crying about it on the forums. I hear you, but this 1) is only a solution for a few mission runners (a bit like "solving" a parking space problem at your work site by driving to work earlier ) and 2) it is not that easy for other factions than Caldari. Just look up decent L4 agents for Minmatar. Tradella
Tradella	Posted - 2008.05.11 07:52:00 - [52] Originally by: Avan Strega For the person that said mission runners are playing a progress game - so what happens once you have a navy raven with full deadspace tank etc. Surely there's nothing else to work towards. Apart from stockpiling isk to spend on......? Pfffhhh... your lack of imagination is appalling. First of all the typical casual 2-3 hours a day mission runner will need a year or two to get "the best" ship. Lots of money for CCP. If you limit those guys to T2 fittings they are done much earlier. And then, if you have your fully pimped CNR you can still progress with another kind of ship. Start an armor tanking drone boat for a change. This is a bit like starting a new char in games like D2. When you are done with a char you start a new one to taste a different flavor. Originally by: Avan Strega There are plenty of defences against being ganked, either your hauler or your mission ship. However, they all require people to (a) not play afk (how many times have CCP said they want this to be an at-keyboard game) At least I was not talking about afk hauling but about mission runnning . Originally by: Avan Strega (b) think a bit about their situation and be generally aware Always a good hint but not a solution for mission runnners. Originally by: Avan Strega (c) use teamwork (or an alt works too, for the solo player with 2 accounts) No, you should not need to scout in high sec like if you were in low sec or 0.0. If that is a requirement the rewards should be comparable. And it even does not work. If you warp into a mission with your sluggish CNR you often get webbed and scrammed first. How is your alt much help in this situation when the suicide gang scans you out and shoots the sitting duck? Also, requiring two accounts for casual mission running is a bit much to ask. Tradella
Avan Strega Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2008.05.11 09:49:00 - [53] Originally by: Tradella Originally by: Avan Strega (b) think a bit about their situation and be generally aware Always a good hint but not a solution for mission runnners. What? Why is being aware and using your brain not a solution? Wait, unless... Originally by: Tradella Originally by: Avan Strega (c) use teamwork (or an alt works too, for the solo player with 2 accounts) No, you should not need to scout in high sec like if you were in low sec or 0.0. If that is a requirement the rewards should be comparable. The rewards in highsec are quite plentiful. Hence, all these people are able to afford deadspace modules. You should have to be careful everywhere if you are going about with expensive stuff. Want less risk? Don't fit deadspace. Result? Slightly less reward. Originally by: Tradella And it even does not work. If you warp into a mission with your sluggish CNR you often get webbed and scrammed first. How is your alt much help in this situation when the suicide gang scans you out and shoots the sitting duck? Also, requiring two accounts for casual mission running is a bit much to ask. Ever tried probing out someone in a mission? It takes some time. Kill the scrambling frigates first, stay aligned to station, don't just sit at the mission warp-in point. Do a bit of research on groups that might be going around ganking mission runners, set them red, and be extra careful if there are large numbers of them in local. Again, precautions that only need to be taken if you're going around flashing your expensive loot around the place. Again though, all this requires the awareness and using of the brain that I mentioned before, which seems to be a problem for some reason. And 2 accounts is not required, why not get a corpmate or other friend to scout? Thunderstruck is recruiting
Tradella	Posted - 2008.05.11 11:01:00 - [54] Originally by: Avan Strega What? Why is being aware and using your brain not a solution? Wait, unless... Originally by: Avan Strega Originally by: Tradella No, you should not need to scout in high sec like if you were in low sec or 0.0. If that is a requirement the rewards should be comparable. The rewards in highsec are quite plentiful. Hence, all these people are able to afford deadspace modules. You should have to be careful everywhere if you are going about with expensive stuff. Nope, if you need to follow low sec/0.0 procedures to simply survive the rewards are too low. Originally by: Avan Strega Want less risk? Don't fit deadspace. Result? Slightly less reward. Again, mission runners want to progress beyond T2 fittings. You are not offering solutions but you are searching for excuses for the status quo. Originally by: Avan Strega Ever tried probing out someone in a mission? It takes some time. Not that much, if you can watch the mission runner warp off in the mission's direction (maybe even while being cloaked, so he/she does not think about warping to something else first). Can be done in a minute. Originally by: Avan Strega Kill the scrambling frigates first, You can not afford that in every mission, at every skill level. Sometimes you need to reduce DPS first (ever got aggro by two spawns on the second stage of STI? ). Originally by: Avan Strega stay aligned to station, don't just sit at the mission warp-in point. Nice idea, does not work for many ship types/setups. Originally by: Avan Strega Do a bit of research on groups that might be going around ganking mission runners, set them red, and be extra careful if there are large numbers of them in local. Again, low sec/0.0 procedures for high sec mission runners. Not appropriate, not doable for casual players. Originally by: Avan Strega And 2 accounts is not required, why not get a corpmate or other friend to scout? You are on for 2 hours on a workday's evening. Just enough to run an L4, loot it and do some housekeeping. So you rely on corporate friends being available at exactly the time you log on and take over the rather boring task of watching your back? And it might even not help one bit if you get jumped in mission in a bad situation. Additionally there are still the mission where a second players causes more aggro. Nope. Won't. Work. Please get realistic and (for a change) ask a high sec mission runner if this would work. Tradella
Hameska	Posted - 2008.05.11 11:58:00 - [55] Originally by: Tradella Durka durka durka. You really don't need scouts, aligning, any of that stuff really, just get out of Motsu, lol. All this whining that there's "nothing" the casual player can do is just silly. But just to drag this out further, haha, why should the game be 100% safe for players that refuse to stay out of the most populated areas, choose to fit the best of gear, and are apparently so "casual", they can't take basic precautions to avoid losing their ship? Who's to say they should be completely immune to other players? One of the great features of EVE is that it's more or less left up to the players to decide how the game flows, and along those lines, the game allows a great deal of freedom in PVP encounters. Why should this be nerfed because some "casual" players can't bother to watch out for themselves? High sec ganking whine 'n cry threads like this one are so common that NO ONE has an excuse not to know that high sec is not 100% safe. Leaving the forums aside, who doesn't know at least one person in game that has been ganked or lofty scammed? Even for new players, this is common knowledge. And yet people still choose to fit billions of dollars worth of gear and fly to populated areas. Knowing they're putting themselves at great risk, is that really the game's fault, or their own? It's been said a million times before that high sec isn't SAFE, but SAFER, yet people choose to ignore this and cry a baby when they die. You increase your risk of dying by fitting billions in gear. You further increase that risk by going to the most popular systems in the game wearing billions of dollars in gear. And you know you're taking that risk. If you choose to do it, fine, but don't cry if and when you get slapped down hard. Motsu != Ironforge. You aren't completely safe in Motsu. If you want to fit a few billion ISK in gear, fine, do it. But act accordingly and find a less popular system to mission in to minimize your risk. If you choose to act recklessly, then blame yourself, not the game and everyone else.
Jmanis Catharg Caldari Stickler inc	Posted - 2008.05.11 12:02:00 - [56] Ironically, people say "It's happening so often". I've 'seen' it happen once, and that once happened to me hauling a 300 mil BPC in a shuttle afk. Got popped by a stealth bomber. Fair enough. He didnt get the BPC. Fair enough. And???
Tradella	Posted - 2008.05.11 13:24:00 - [57] Edited by: Tradella on 11/05/2008 13:24:11 Originally by: Hameska Originally by: Tradella Durka durka durka. Great, I can see you have followed the flow of arguments.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.05.11 15:50:00 - [58] Originally by: Heartcarver ...tank your ship... For hauler pilots, this is the solution. When I fly with something of reasonable value and size, I do it in a tanked Badger II. It has about 27.5k effective HP (as calc'd by EFT). People have tried to gank me twice (both times by BC's), and I generally laugh at them when they're blown up and I'm still in quarter-to-half shields.... I'm also fairly certain that at least one guy has scanned my fit and decided not to attack me when he saw the result. You don't have to be invulnerable in a hauler to escape gankings, you just have to be a bit tougher than the ganker is setup to handle. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.05.11 15:57:00 - [59] Originally by: Tradella This argument would be acceptable if there was a wide variety of L4 decent quality agents to choose from, for every faction. There are..... unless of.c. you define 'decent' as 'almost as good as the best'. I used to do my L4's in Aramachi (which FYI is a better agent than the one in Motsu), and would get around 7600LP for a high-end mission. I get around 6000LP now at my current agent (Caldari, in Caldari high-sec) which is still very decent, with two added advantages: a. No lag (max. I've seen in local is 60) b. No gankings It could also be said that hub gankings is a fair consequence of risk-vs-reward. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.05.11 17:19:00 - [60] Originally by: Tradella Edited by: Tradella on 11/05/2008 13:24:11 Originally by: Hameska Originally by: Tradella Durka durka durka. Great, I can see you have followed the flow of arguments. I didn't want to regurgitate a huge block of text is all.

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