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Ulendar
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Posted - 2004.04.29 02:32:00 -
[1]
I think it needs to be said. As most of you who have been here a while know, there have been about a billion changes to the various weaponry in EVE in other to balance them. After a year it seems that, although things have improved, there is STILL a preferred weapon type universe wide because said weapon type just wipes the floor with competition....
I.e. itĘs unbalanced!
As of right now when you compare the various guns in the game you can tell that each have their own distinct advantages and disadvantages but there is STILL a weapon type that stands out of the crowd and atm its projectiles...
Projectiles:
Pro: LONG range, high damage, uses very little cap (more tanking)
Con: slow rof, higher chance of a miss within falloff
Hybred:
Pro: good range, good damage over time, good hit rate
Con: uses a fair bit of cap, the hit damage you get when uses ammo that gives you the needed range...sucks
Energy:
Pro: no ammo needed just a lens
Con: everything else imho
Now. To tell the truth I havenĘt really experimented a whole lot with energy turrets mainly because I think they suck anyways :P. I have experimented with some apoc/arma setups of which some gave me a fair bit of damage over time but ALWAYS fairly short range. Tachyons were simply nerfed to sh1t. Tachs are very hard to fit...they are clearly not meant to be fit as a main armament on ANY ship but rather as a secondary support turret...why oh why must they be so worthless given their current role? Also I think its worth mentioning that an Armageddon is one of the toughest ships to fit in the game.
I see more and more people use blaster/hybreds on their apoc/arma regardless of any bonus to the energy turrets. This is a clear indication that something is amiss imho.
In my little pro/con comparison you can see that although hybreds are decent weapons they are clearly only second choice when it comes to battleship combat.
Which brings me to the point of missiles...
I currently consider the Raven to be the best battleship in the game with a tempest in a close second. Imho there is simply nothing that can match the Ravens versatility. You can setup a Raven to tank forever and punch out enough dam to bring anything to its knees...
The Raven is clearly a missile boat and the fact that missiles use 0 cap means that a Raven pilot can pump his entire cap into shield tanking his Raven.
A tempest follows this path very closely as tempest use the advantage of low consumption projectile turrets plus missile launchers.
I know that opinions about missiles are varied and that some consider them to be underpowered but imho...launchers use 0 cap, you can tank a Raven forever because of this, cruise missiles hit for 350 a pop and going at 6 of them per volley, that stings pretty badly, especially with the insane launch rate on some Ravens out there.
The drawback of missiles would be their cost. But I honestly do not think that any pilot who puts a 100milion (just the ship) isk ship into combat will be worried about his 'ammo money'.
As for the gallente ships which have pretty much gone unmentioned in this topic....
It seems the megathron has merit but the winning setup of the megathron is paired with very high risk when compared to a Raven or tempest setup. One piloting mistake in your shiny little blasterthron and itĘs bye-bye...
So I suppose my question is...
WHEN can we expect some REAL balancing that will not CLEARY favour a certain type of weaponry?
WHEN can we expect to see an apoc fitted with laser turrets again instead of proj/hybred?
WHEN can we expect missiles to start behaving like they should?
WHEN can we expect drones to become a viable weapon so gallente ships get some love?
soonÖ?
 Originally by: cashman
It's time for Eris to get a clue. CCP should make a statement about this.
It's the exact same things as what Zombie did, you may not attack in "safe-areas" (empire/within sentry range) without loosing your ship.
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Smacktastic
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Posted - 2004.04.29 02:54:00 -
[2]
Soon?
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Moderator @ www.killer-clowns.com
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Ulendar
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Posted - 2004.04.29 03:42:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Smacktastic
Soon?
Prolly... 
Originally by: cashman
It's time for Eris to get a clue. CCP should make a statement about this.
It's the exact same things as what Zombie did, you may not attack in "safe-areas" (empire/within sentry range) without loosing your ship.
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dalman
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Posted - 2004.04.29 04:11:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Ulendar
Also I think its worth mentioning that an Armageddon is one of the toughest ships to fit in the game.
HUH?
That's prolly the easist ship in the game to fit.
7 dual heavy beams or pulse lasers. 1 smartbomb or nosferatu.
3 armor hardeners.
2 good armor repairers
Rest of the slots for cap recharge (and scrambler, mwd, whatever you need)
And on your other points...
ANY ship can be tanked as good as a raven can.
The Gallante ships are awesome for PvP.
Fitting projectiles on an Apoc means there is something wrong in the head of the pilot, not in the ship.
Missiles takes a long time to reach their target. Missiles can be destroyed with defenders or smartbombs. Missiles doesn't do as much damage/time as turrets. Missiles costs alot.
Drones are already very important.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
DigitalCommunist
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Posted - 2004.04.29 04:27:00 -
[5]
Quote:
It seems the megathron has merit but the winning setup of the megathron is paired with very high risk when compared to a Raven or tempest setup. One piloting mistake in your shiny little blasterthron and itĘs bye-bye...
Good. Then that means its balanced. Having the highest damaging ship in the game should have its drawbacks or else there would be no point in using anything else, would there? You need balls to lunge yourself at someone and get within scramble and web range when at any time his friends can pick you off at 20km+ or warp in to help. A raven setup usually works at any range since missles don't have an optimal, a close range Tempest with 800mm or dual 425mm faces the same challenges as a blaster equipped megathron..
I really don't see the basis of your complaints, battleships are relatively balanced and so are guns. There is no best battleship overall, but some are better at specific tasks than others. That said, Tachyons on an Apoc are just fine, they can be quite powerful. Sure you need more skills to pilot turret-based ships, especially one that depends so much on engineering skills like the Apoc, but in the end it comes down to setup, know-how and situation.
Any battleship can kill any other battleship.
_____________________________________
Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning.
"Can I be a consultant for EVE II?" - WhiteDwarf |
hatchette
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Posted - 2004.04.29 04:27:00 -
[6]
Yep, what dalman said.
Drones are ok as they are, the only problem is the drone interface. Which CCP is already fixing.
And there is no best battleship. Every ship can be better than any other with proper fitting.
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Doc Brown
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Posted - 2004.04.29 04:29:00 -
[7]
The problem isn't that the weapons are un-balanced, it's the support modules. ECM and Sensor Dampners are 2 examples the spring to mind.
For instance, I was recently attacked by 2 Blackbirds. They used a combo of sensor dampners to knock my targeting range down from 143km to 6.2 km (yes, 6.2 km). That's a bigger loss than some bships have for a targeting range!!
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There are no bad ideas, only bad implementations. |
ProphetGuru
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Posted - 2004.04.29 04:39:00 -
[8]
Edited by: ProphetGuru on 29/04/2004 04:44:36
Raven is a beast at 20-30k tho.
edit- On second thought, not worth getting into I spose. It really depends more then anything else, on if the pilot has a clue when setup is done, and then knows how to use it. I see some of the most god awful setups on ships....
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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StoreSlem
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Posted - 2004.04.29 04:55:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ulendar
I.e. itĘs unbalanced!
As of right now when you compare the various guns in the game you can tell that each have their own distinct advantages and disadvantages but there is STILL a weapon type that stands out of the crowd and atm its projectiles...
No, you got it wrong. Hybrid > *, with projectiles coming somewhat behind.
Hybrid have: Best DOT for all ranges. Manageable cap use though it's still there. Range is only contested by 1400mms. Least power fitting reqs of all guns. Their ammo types do more damage per range than other types. Their ammo have usefull damage spreads at all ranges, none of that Expl+Kin that makes half the projectile ammo useless, and none of that EM only or as good as as we have on lasers.
The backsides with hybrids are: High CPU reqs. They use more cap then projectiles. They have ammo (yeah so what, even with projectiles ammo aint a problem only an inconvenience).
Lasers OTOH are too weak and need a major buff.
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Archemedes
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Posted - 2004.04.29 04:56:00 -
[10]
I have to somewhat disagree with you about your pros and cons for the weapon types... assuming you are only talking long range turrets and not blaster/autocannon setups, projectiles look like this:
Pro: long range, high-damage ammo fairly effective at all ranges, minimal cap use
Con: slow ROF, lowest damage over time of all guns, higher chance to miss in falloff if you stay with EMP ammo
As for lasers, they use a lot of cap but hit pretty hard. They're actually quite nice as long as you don't try to fill up with tachyons, though NO laser ship will be as good at tanking as a projectile ship. On the other hand, lasers outdamage 1400s easily... a 1400mm howitzer with EMP ammo has a base damage of 9.31 damage / second while a mega beam with a gamma crystal (I prefer gamma to multifreq for large lasers due to the lower cap use and better range) does 12.2 dps, a dual heavy beam with gamma does 11.1 dps, and a heavy beam laser (a medium turret) with multifrequency does 9.9 dps. I hardly call a weapon whose best LARGE turret can't outdamage the best MEDIUM laser a "high-damage" weapon type! 
And as for hybrids, what's "the needed range"? If you want to stand off at 80km and slug it out with a howitzer-equipped Tempest then sure you'll lose out on damage, but move in to 30km and you can use antimatter, which will hit MUCH harder than a 1400mm with EMP (13.8 dps). Even thorium ammo outdamages a 1400mm and that gives you a 40-50km range easy.
So why are projectiles used so often? I suspect it's because:
1) The Tempest's bonus is MUCH better than other battleships. Level 4 Minmatar Battleship skill gives you 50% more damage per second on a Tempest (67% more with L5 skill), while no other race gets more than a 25-33% damage boost from L5 skill.
2) Cap is life in a fight. Lasers use too much cap to tank well, and hybrids use a fair amount too. Only projectile / missile ships can devote most of their cap to defense.
and, of course...
3) Howitzers do the best damage at very long range and the most damage per volley so gankers like them.
But overall I'd rather have rails than projectiles any day unless I was in a Tempest, and I'd rather have lasers than rails in my Armageddon. I might not be able to tank as well or shoot 100km, but I'd sure do more damage in a fleet battle and that's the only place I'd TAKE a 'Geddon into PvP. For smaller fights give me my interceptor and KEEP your big lumbering bulls-eye of a battleship! 
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hatchette
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Posted - 2004.04.29 05:12:00 -
[11]
That's why you don't shield tank an apoc/arma, but armor tank them. And cap isn't a problem when you use 800 cap charges.
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John Blackthorn
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Posted - 2004.04.29 05:18:00 -
[12]
Um i don't see these assumptions. I have all level 4 gunnary skills, i use tech 2 hybred damage mod, and 425mm rails trired lots of differn tammo and best i can ge out of them is 100 to 170 damage shots. My corpies with 1400's are tell me they get like 300 to 500. Tachons get 250 to 350. <shrugs> i still think 425mm's are worest top level gun in the game.
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Akarah Siminova
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Posted - 2004.04.29 05:27:00 -
[13]
John Blackthorn:
And how does your DOT compare to your projectile using friends with the big hits?
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Marlene Shian
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Posted - 2004.04.29 05:31:00 -
[14]
Originally by: John Blackthorn
Um i don't see these assumptions. I have all level 4 gunnary skills, i use tech 2 hybred damage mod, and 425mm rails trired lots of differn tammo and best i can ge out of them is 100 to 170 damage shots. My corpies with 1400's are tell me they get like 300 to 500. Tachons get 250 to 350. <shrugs> i still think 425mm's are worest top level gun in the game.
Its not the dmg you do per shot its the dmg you do over time.
425 have a base ROF of 9 secs while 1400s have 23 secs. Your one 425 prob hits 2.5 times per 1 1400 hit so over time you do as good if not better dmg. Only reason 1400s are viable on minmatar BS's are the ROF bonuses you get per lvl on both tier1 and 2 BS's. High skills may even give them the advantage.
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Synapse Archae
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Posted - 2004.04.29 05:34:00 -
[15]
The fact that we can actually HAVE this conversation with differing opinions shows that there is plenty of balance.
Personally I fly a scorp, so I wouldn't know the first thing about dealing dammage. I just toss in what dmg I can with 1400s/missiles, let others do the dmg and me focus on what I do best.
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[/IMG]http://millerfam.org/eve/synapse_logo.jpg[/IMG]
Everyone deserves a chance to live.
My job is to make sure they get it. |
StoreSlem
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Posted - 2004.04.29 05:50:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Synapse Archae
The fact that we can actually HAVE this conversation with differing opinions shows that there is plenty of balance.
TBH that's not a necessity. Faulty arguments doesn't really suggest balance. Lobbying to make ones weapon type better than the others is usually all we see here. People can allways come up with some drivel about how their weapons needs improving. You see, because most whinage = TomB changes it.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.04.29 06:52:00 -
[17]
Originally by: ProphetGuru
Edited by: ProphetGuru on 29/04/2004 04:44:36
Raven is a beast at 20-30k tho.
edit- On second thought, not worth getting into I spose. It really depends more then anything else, on if the pilot has a clue when setup is done, and then knows how to use it. I see some of the most god awful setups on ships....
I fought against a guy in a Megathron using dual heavy beams last weekend 
Needless to say, he got beat.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
PaulAtreides
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Posted - 2004.04.29 07:01:00 -
[18]
As a gunnery specialist.. I always used to favour Lasers...but now...my Apoc and Geddon will use hybrids until something is doen about energy turrets...
Very sad state of afairs, I say.
SoonÖ is right! But realy....the soonÖer the betterÖ.
Want to work for me? |
Aegon
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Posted - 2004.04.29 08:32:00 -
[19]
I agree that turret damage types should be relooked at. I'm starting to wonder about the viability of playing an Amarr that only sticks to lasers. I've heard a lot of people telling me it's suicidal due to the cap nightmare.
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sutty
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Posted - 2004.04.29 09:54:00 -
[20]
might sound aibt daft, but is there enough HP on a battleship for the DOT of other guns to really show before its dead. what I mean is, I think a Tempest with 1400's would proberly kill a apoc before a blasterthon with 425's would, at the same range ? somone test this :P. Also my ROF aint that bad, I got lvl 4 battleship lvl 5 proj, lvl 5 ss and lvl 5 rapid firing.
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SlightlyMad
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Posted - 2004.04.29 10:54:00 -
[21]
I have a long time ago quit bothering with balancing issues. And seriously. Does every ship have to be equal? I think not. The ships should have distincter features/differances making them all a viable choice in different situations!
Also, the problem of "balancing" has its root in the fact that you have very few parameters to change and control setups. And that most of those parameters are generic. That is, it will affect all.
Modules/weapons:
A "slot" system without any real controle on what you mount on the ship. There is just a total CPU/MW to control this with.(and turrets/launcher hardpoint)
This enables freaky setups that work terrific but all blow the boundaries of the ships/equipments original intentions was. Things like the surprisingly tough "Armourtanked Raven" should never ever been able to see the light of the day.
Whilst the "armour crazy" amarrians have no way of armourtanking good AND fit their intended weapons. (Tachyons/Mega, DmgMods,powercore/powerdiag)
The "shipdesingning" is closer to the designing of a fantasy char than actually shipdesigning. Their are many similarities between CPU/MW/Cap/slots/"modules" and Int/Strenght/Mana/slots/"items".
Their is no control over what items you actualy fit on a ship. Anything goes as long as you have Cpu/MW and slots avaliable. And every item is of the same size :/ Why can't I choose between mounting 1 HUGE gun or 4 small guns?
However, the mold is alredy firm on this and the game will continue to be based on Cpu/MW/slots.
My suggestion:
Quit being bothered about balancing. Just adapt and drive the ship/setup that rules in the current patch. Or just wait a few months and your ship is on the top again. Raven used to SUCK, now its leathal. Mimatar ships used to SUCK, now they are excellent. Amarr ships used to OMFGWTFPWN, now they SUCK.
*
-"You know, we play the "good guys" right? We kill pirates, griefers, retards and general subversive elements in the EVE-Community. To the rest, we are friendly and always prepared to help out. Peo |
dalman
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Posted - 2004.04.29 12:47:00 -
[22]
Originally by: John Blackthorn
Um i don't see these assumptions. I have all level 4 gunnary skills, i use tech 2 hybred damage mod, and 425mm rails trired lots of differn tammo and best i can ge out of them is 100 to 170 damage shots. My corpies with 1400's are tell me they get like 300 to 500. Tachons get 250 to 350. <shrugs> i still think 425mm's are worest top level gun in the game.
Congrats, you are awarded "cookie of the day" for that post.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Jarjar
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Posted - 2004.04.29 12:49:00 -
[23]
Originally by: sutty
might sound aibt daft, but is there enough HP on a battleship for the DOT of other guns to really show before its dead. what I mean is, I think a Tempest with 1400's would proberly kill a apoc before a blasterthon with 425's would, at the same range ? somone test this :P. Also my ROF aint that bad, I got lvl 4 battleship lvl 5 proj, lvl 5 ss and lvl 5 rapid firing.
Erm a blasterthron with 425's, wtf is that?
1400's on a tempest are quite good yes, but they're not close to a blasterthron. However they might be close or perhaps better than 425's on a megathron.
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sutty
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Posted - 2004.04.29 12:57:00 -
[24]
urm wrong ship I mean the ship that gets bonus to 425 :P leave me alone it was early :/
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qrac
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Posted - 2004.04.29 12:58:00 -
[25]
lasers are gimped compared to other weapons and i have proven it in this thread
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Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
Ulendar
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Posted - 2004.04.29 13:13:00 -
[26]
Erm...
I think the main issue here is capacitorjuice...
Ravens have loads
Apocs have very little to spare
See. Whenever i'm fighting a Raven the fight is very equal and intence untill i run out of cap which WILL happen unless the guy in the Raven has some horribly misfitted ship. Ravens are built to last in a fight, they got cap for ages. Apocs dont and no cap booster charges are going to save you when your running 2 large armor reps to keep your armor from getting blown appart by devastators. If you rigg 2 smartbombs to keep the missiles off your back your again draining more cap with an already capintensive set-up. To me it seems that there is no way you can rig an Apoc without running out of cap in a long fight. If laserturrets had the needed amount of pump to end a fight quickly then a capintensive setup for an Apoc would be no problem...but they don't have that pump especially with the stupidly gimped tachyons.
Right now, rigging a tach on an Apoc is just killing yourself quicker as your killing your cap quicker.
Originally by: cashman
It's time for Eris to get a clue. CCP should make a statement about this.
It's the exact same things as what Zombie did, you may not attack in "safe-areas" (empire/within sentry range) without loosing your ship.
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dalman
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Posted - 2004.04.29 13:23:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Ulendar
Right now, rigging a tach on an Apoc is just killing yourself quicker as your killing your cap quicker.
But ffs, you're not meant to fit tachyons for a 1vs1.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
toaster
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Posted - 2004.04.29 14:45:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Doc Brown
The problem isn't that the weapons are un-balanced, it's the support modules. ECM and Sensor Dampners are 2 examples the spring to mind.
For instance, I was recently attacked by 2 Blackbirds. They used a combo of sensor dampners to knock my targeting range down from 143km to 6.2 km (yes, 6.2 km). That's a bigger loss than some bships have for a targeting range!!
There are ways to couteract this...know the game and know ECM and u can overcome. Also, more importantly is that blackbirds and scorpions are weak battleships compared to their non-caldari counterparts when it comes to damage dealing and shields/armor, etc.. Meaning they have the advantage of being deadly support ships, but when u use ur mid slots for support you lose tanking ability and therefore can be taken down easily.
Next time a BB jams you up, launch drones and change to FoFs and watch how fast they die. Blackbirds are quite fragile.
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Frank Horrigan
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Posted - 2004.04.29 15:08:00 -
[29]
well ive been in stain killing rats alright (note im in an apoc)... i had 6 1400mm on my apoc. they worked perfectly because there falloff is huge and the rats mwd all over the place so switching ammo is usless. i had 3-4 gryo 2's on and my rof was about 13 seconds and i was hitting for atleast 300 dammage 50km from optimal range
USE PROJECTILES THEY RULE!
ok now lasers i heard my buddys say i shoud switch back to lasers espaecaly because i get a bonus on my apoc with lasers, i tryed them i had to put on a ton of rcu's and stuff to fit even 5 of them. so my cap recharge wasent so nice around 350 sec, i go out and start killing stuff... i get horrible dammage! my rof was 9-10 seconds and i was hitting for crap even with multi ammo bout 80 dammage 10k from optimal, 150-250 in optimal and then my cap died... so
LASERS SUCK EGGS DONT USE THEM
now i tryed hybrid. since they use so little powergrid and a bit mroe cpu i can easily fit 8 on an apoc, but what i did was fit 6-7 and put on a few dammage mods witch raises my dammage mod from 3.3 and rof from 7 sec up preety good. now i go out to a belt... lock some rats start firing now i hit for 80-170 dammage usualy but thats like every 5.5 seconds. the rats were dead just as fast as projectiles would take to kill one. so
IF YOU GET SHIP BONUS ON HYBIDS USE THEM IF U GET BONUS ON PROJECTILES USE THEM IF YOUR FLYING AN AMMAR SHIP STILL USE PROJECTILES (this ONLY applys to battle ships.) I can own someone in my maller with 5 lasers better then with 5 720mm or hybrids
if u say im wrong then go ahead i dont care ive tested them myself 
Originally by: Oveur
Originally by: Bhaal
What has turned out better than expected?
Everything. Remember, we're from Iceland.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This i |
John McCreedy
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Posted - 2004.04.29 15:16:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ulendar
Erm...
I think the main issue here is capacitorjuice...
Ravens have loads
Apocs have very little to spare
See. Whenever i'm fighting a Raven the fight is very equal and intence untill i run out of cap which WILL happen unless the guy in the Raven has some horribly misfitted ship. Ravens are built to last in a fight, they got cap for ages. Apocs dont and no cap booster charges are going to save you when your running 2 large armor reps to keep your armor from getting blown appart by devastators. If you rigg 2 smartbombs to keep the missiles off your back your again draining more cap with an already capintensive set-up. To me it seems that there is no way you can rig an Apoc without running out of cap in a long fight. If laserturrets had the needed amount of pump to end a fight quickly then a capintensive setup for an Apoc would be no problem...but they don't have that pump especially with the stupidly gimped tachyons.
Right now, rigging a tach on an Apoc is just killing yourself quicker as your killing your cap quicker.
What's the benefit of having Cap when you're oponent warps away and you waste all your missiles on him?
and if you're unable to get a decent set up on an Appoc, then retrain for another ship you think you will.
Make a difference
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